Larry Hancock

Sandy, on the benefit of doubt point, I think that is fine for personal relationships but when you have someone offering themselves as a primary witness in the assassination of the President I think an actual order of proof or at least independent corroboration is required.  I very much doubt that Jim had the FBI files and documents on Tosh when he wrote and I'm not even certain he would have had access to the sources which demonstrate how significantly Tosh's story has evolved over time. I think I can also claim to have done more research on the Contra affair and associated drug activities than Jim has done; I don't know if you have read my book Shadow Warfare or not but I had to dig though a lot of "claims" to get to what appears to me to be the root of the story there.  I actually suspect Tosh did some flights down there but you have to remember that one of the big issues there was that the CIA was pulled out of it early on, leading to a lot of independent folks getting involved under the North regime. And as one of the big drug guys feeding the channel out of Miami stated in court - "everybody says they are CIA".  Which worked quite well for a bit with some customs points as they to assumed certain flights were CIA -  until the roof fell in on them and it became clear they were being had.

One of the very interesting patterns in Tosh's visibility is that whenever he got busted for something - like renting an airplane and leaving it parked on a dirt road somewhere or kiting checks, is that after a bit of time in jail he would immediately ask for the FBI, begin making claims and trying to set himself up as a source.  Not an uncommon tactic for fringe operators but very clear if you really dig into the documents. Its also very hard to find any names or activities that  he puts forth that was not generally known in Miami or in the papers there. I did a bit more than just go the document route but that's private and I'm not going into it here.

Personally I think the JFK research community has been a bit soft on a lot of sources that have offered themselves up and I will be speaking to that at the Lancer conference. Going along with that, as I mentioned elsewhere, what was once mysterious and even plausible a decade ago or earlier always needs to be reexamined with the best available material.  

But hey, you can dig into it just as I did, and much more quickly than I would given the resources available today.

Sandy, I had mentioned Bob Vernon later, the first "promoter" of Files; you might find the following of interest - it elaborates on some of the issues raised by Allan:

http://citizensforjustice.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=158

And in the end, after he sold the Files story rights (which might an indication of what was going on right there) Files first promoter (West's partner Bob Vernon) came public with a number of points which undermined Files.  I had some lengthy emails with him at that point in time, probably on an earlier PC at this point.  It was kind of a dump of how he himself had become fed up the the Files story that he had touted for several years.

As to using professionals, its sort of important to note that there is no indication that Roselli had ever used a weapon since his basic training during WWII and his days of being a street guy were decades behind him.  Given his age, his physical condition (fine for Vegas and LA clubs but not so much for tactical operations) and the fact that he would be about a far as you could get from being a professional shooter he seems an unlikely pick.  He is also a particularly bad choice given that the FBI had Roselli under daily surveillance (we have the records) and he was very well aware of it. And then to draft Files at the last minute, give him a handgun he had never  used, one that has a rather unique kick and which he had never practiced with - again probably not the best way to go from a professional standpoint. Not to mention that if any of those players are busted it goes right back to Chicago with no deniablity at all. 

Sandy, as your quote of Jim relates, Tosh was telling at least parts of his story, before Joe West ever got involved with the Files story and before anything from Files got out to the public. Nothing in Tosh's earliest information really would have anything to do with Files story other than the issue of flying in someone he recognized as Roselli from Florida (how he would have recognized Roselli is a question that comes to mind). Without getting wrapped up in why Roselli would have flown into Dallas with an abort team in order to tell Nicholetti that he was backing out because an abort team was there (my mind sort of blows up at that point) I'll just answer your question by saying that no, even after several dialogs with Tosh, a full review of all the FBI documents and arrest records I could get on him and searches of the references he provided, I simply was not convinced that of any association between he and military intelligence or by the various iterations of his story about Dallas. 

Sandy I think if you do some web searching you will find most everything debunked as well as the fact that Files had read assassination books before he started talking.  As to the shell casing, of course it was found a long way from where he describes it behind the fence.  And as to Tosh Plumlee, I would encourage you to wade through the different variations of his story and note the dramatic changes as well as his dialog on JFK and Bobby being warned of the attack before hand, given the exact location of it in front of the Adolphus hotel, then told that plans had changed and the whole thing was out of control - and JFK just drove right on down the street with Jackie.  Check out how it is that Tosh knows that and his remarks on how he was visited in Florida by a senior CIA officer (Helms, don't recall) and given that sort of detail. Then draw your own conclusions.

When you are finished I will be happy to sell you my copy of the first Files video release of his story - on cassette no less - just one more of my great investments in JFK research. ..grin.

Tommy (oh, and I really like the new format by the way) its easy to get wrapped up in this because we all come across the same sort of material; if I had written something on Caine based on what I had read before I really started digging it would have had several of the points  you mentioned - I was surprised that most of what I found did not support what had been written earlier.  The thing is that much of the early writing about this sort of material was the best that could be done at the time; we have far more sources now.  Many of the old leads have been wrapped up and new ones revealed. And its a real challenge for anyone new to the field or even to a given subject.  In regard to Caine the best that I could determine is that he may very well have served as a courier for one of the first poison pill efforts against Castro, probably the first. He was probably loaned from Giancana for that and may even have gotten on island; either that or just helped as a cut out in Florida.  That was earlier days and with a bit more time he was replaced by old Havana casino crime connections on island.  It appears there were at least three and maybe four efforts to get in poison before the BOP landings.  However I think that is probably the extent of Caine's connections to things JFK related and that was more a Giancana/Roselli association than anything else.

Tommy, I know those points you listed on Caine keep coming up but if you actually get the files on Cain in Mexico City, including his contacts with the CIA there, his application for work which they turned down (which was not for electronics work) and go on to get the rest of his files you will find that all the above is largely JFK myth class stuff. The same goes for his involvement with the post assassination connection to the MC rifle - which shows up in many books but is really the result of his name being in a consolidated FBI report which also included the rifle info.  I honestly don't have the time to give you references for all this but I did all the leg work with those documents back in the day where you had to get them from the archives yourself; no much of it may be available via MFF. I do write about Cain a bit in SWHT but only on those things that can be verified.  As to Staff D in MC, that's a story that did not involve Cain at all and to insert him into it rather than referring to Simpich's work or even my NEXUS is a step backwards.

I will say that personally I accepted everything you listed before I did the digging for myself.  But at this point in time all I can do is encourage everyone to do their homework with primary sources.  The same advice would go to old timers and newbies, we are all faced with dealing with 50 years of writing on this subject and much of it has become pretty dated based on the actual info now available.

Great, if you have any questions we can do it here or go into more detail via email   larryjoe@westok.net

While some of his staff were still focused on trying to take him out through the crowd and through the main doors he had made it clear to the folks who brought him down before that he was to tired to deal with the big crowds, hence his entry down the service elevator, through the kitchen and the pantry.  So you had a split, some started to move him off the stage and others begin to move him out the way he had come in....reflects the real lack of professional security with his movements but it also reflects that the quick way to the press room was though the pantry hallway which ran behind all the rooms and on over behind the press room.  But to answer your question, in my essays on the MFF site I trace the various sightings of the PDG, Sirhan and the young men that evening as they moved around the hotel.  At one point they did try to enter the ballroom and were turned back.  At a couple of points they were by the escalators leading to the ballroom.  But that all changed and ultimately they met outside one of the sets of pantry entrance doors, apparently seeing people going in and realizing it was unguarded.  That would have provided easy access to the stage from the rear.  At that point they actually saw RFK go through the pantry hallway to get on stage and remained in position for his exit.  My guess would be that if he had gone down on the stage, through the crowd and out the main door he would still have headed to the press room and they could easily moved to  a position to intercept him...

If this sounds complex, there are maps with the essays on MFF that make it a lot clearer...  

What makes all this even stranger is that the Sixth Floor Museum itself acknowledged the Briggs connection, his early role with the museum and commented on internal reactions to his CIA connection - all in their published anniversary book on the Museum.  In addition they did an oral history interview with him which is available.  I suppose the family would not be happy about all that either? 

Chris, I guess its a good thing that none of those folks were at our Lancer conference presentation last year - with or without fruit to throw...

Here  you go David, these are working:

The 1st RFK Show  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ4isAHUuXg 

The 2nd RFK Show 

http://ochelli.com/podcasts/06022016-thursday-the-rfk-assassination-larry-hancock-stu-wexler-carmine-savastano/

I'll check and see if I can find another link David, had not looked at that since I posted it. We actually did two or three interviews on the subject over a couple of months.

In regard to Gene's remark above, I think we could isolate at least three locations prior to the final attack where an attempt was made or at least planned. As to that night at the Ambassador, all the indicators show that it had to be a sort of attack at opportunity due to the size of the crowds, the security and the changes in entry and exit routes for RFK. If you track the movements of all the suspects you can see it as being very fluid, including their contacts with Sirhan. If could have failed at any point that night but once it became clear that RFK had entered via the pantry and the pantry was not totally cleared/secured the opportunity was there. Unfortunately RFK's decision not to employ professional security folks had a great deal to do with that; if he had used an experience team the pantry would not doubt have been cleared.

Chris, that would have been SOP for the new MIG activities instituted following the Presidential directive Johnson issued in 1968 - but I have to once again note that your footage and all those practices applied in 68 on. And in truth they were assumed by all of us who were protesting in that period; for example we knew campus police were building photo inventories of everyone participating in campus protests. That's just the way it was... Anyone who wants to dig into it can get started with searches on Lantern Spike and Garden Plot (as I recall the latter was largely a California thing).

Chris, just to put that in context the mission of the MIG groups changed dramatically circa 68/69 when Johnson authorized an entirely new level of domestic military intelligence planning and intel collection. The military began a level of proactive collections in major cities, a brand new practice, with the objective being to respond to large scale race and anti-war rioting. This followed the massive race riots in Detroit and L.A. Stu and I wrote about such activities in The Awful Grace of God, in regard to Memphis and the MLK assassination. Key terms for a search would be Lantern Spike and Rose Garden, (these actions were described as Civil Disorder Operations and authorized by the Army Intelligence and Security Command. The primary participants were from regional military intelligence groups. But its important to note that this all came following a Presidential Executive Order issued in 1968 and was not part of any standard mission for the military intel groups in earlier years - how do we know that, because the ARRB collected the full mission and training materials package as well as the TO and job descriptions for the 112th MIG, and nothing of that order is in them. All of this stuff was quite mysterious years ago, its only cleared up in the last couple of decades. Actually I suspect the Army might have had my photo from marches of that period...I always imagined that possiblity. Back then campus police were even photographing protests where we did nothing more than sit on lawns - ah, the good old days.

I've known a couple of AF intercept folks and they have been disinclined to say anything beyond what their job category was, what command and what their headquarters was. Of course that is public knowledge and anyone that has a copy of Richelson's books on the US Intel Community can readily find out about who does what in Signals and Electronics intel and who gets copied.

If anyone has SWHT you will find some relevant details about the Air Force side of such signals intelligence in Europe, conducted out of Scotland and England back in the day in Appendix E

Interesting since as far is is known officially the Air Force did and does run the broad signals intelligence and monitoring missions for NSA - requires some very special antenna arrays. That would include monitoring Soviet space transmissions - and just to make it a little less mysterious, there have always been unknown space signals in play, normally associated with unacknowledged spacecraft or with secondary transmissions from non military Soviet satellites (that would be non military in name only...grin). I'm sure Army did Signals intel collection in Germany but I would assume it would be largely tactical, signal collections off Soviet and East German forces. I'll do a check on Army Security intercepts...

Sorry Steve, I did mean New Orleans instead of Miami - my error - and I'm afraid I don't now anything about Pelaez.

Steve, the only possible military intelligence connections I've seen are the Far Eastern ones discussed by Richard Case Nagell and they have nothing to do with the U.S. On the other hand, Dick Russell presents an interesting discussion of how the name may indeed have come from Nagell - certainly the timing matches. The other point is the "also poorly" done military ID card connecting Nagell with Oswald. I almost have to wonder if they were not done at the same time, they have many of the same issues.

In general terms having an ID that is not backstopped in any fashion is pretty stupid because the thing falls apart at the first check - so other than being able to "flash" it to people who have no capability to check it, the ID is meaningless. And there is no sign that Oswald did much to create a true backstop for the identity. If he had wanted to really establish a false identity for himself he could have done so with a bit more effort, but he didn't. The other thing that really makes it stupid is carrying two sets of identification - now that is less of a deal with Oswald given that he was not carrying a drivers license, credit cards etc. But even an Oswald library card or a library card with another name gets you in trouble if somebody asks for your billfold.

So...I think its very interesting but we should keep in mind its not really a true second identity nor even much of an alias.

Steve, just in general I don't know that the average person would have tweaked to it being a fake if he just flashed it; I held a military ID for four years and probably never looked at it that closely. These days we examine such things closely but back then unless he was going though a real security check or being picked up for a crime it probably would have passed.

Your question on why a military ID is a good one though, a military ID can be used for little things like getting you on base to use the PX or similar facilities. But there is some risk there and no sign of Oswald doing that. A military ID is useful in applying for benefits, but only in the right name - so much for that. It strikes me a military ID might be useful to impress someone you are trying to convince of your credentials as a military type, as a marine. Oswald did try that sort of thing with exiles in Miami, but in his own name and for that he used his training manual as support.

Lets go back to New Orleans for a bit, its pretty clear that Oswald was associating with individuals not known to the local community including Cuban exiles, those folks were suspected of being Castro agents even by certain exiles there. Nagell tells us they were exiles from out of town pretending to be Castro agents. What if Oswald was trying to pitch himself as a former military type turned Castro supporter - ala FPCC - and sneaky enough to be using aliases and false ID. Perhaps it was a sort of pitch to serve his role in being a dangle. In fact it might even have been given to him for just that purpose.

Or you can fast forward to Dallas where he appears to have once again been "dangling" himself, perhaps at the House on Harlandale. I also find those two missing weeks of interest. Bottom line though is that a fake military ID is probably not a good thing for use with the actual military but if you are trying to impress somebody with your being a marine it might be worthwhile.

The only way the ID works is if it is associated with an independent identity other than Oswald - which means using it with people and places where Oswald is unknown and can't be independently recognized. That doesn't really work in New Orleans where he was highly visible as Oswald. We know the FBI was confused as to whether or not Hidell was a real person in conjunction with the FPCC, there are documents on that question. Seems like the ID might have been useful as something related to penetrating the FPCC, but from our understanding that was all a paper trail. Would the FPCC have required an ID for some reason or was Oswald thinking of doing something that summer as Hidel where a physical ID would have been required.

Which brings something to mind which I don't recall, in Mexico he reportedly showed Duran materials related to the FPCC in his pitch for a visa? Did those not contain any name? Or does Oswald show up on FPCC material independent of Hidell; I just don't remember...

Very good question on his use of a pysical ID, its one thing to use a name as an alias as he did with his FPCC letters but to actually have it on an ID card is another story. Does anyone have an idea of what purpose a Hidell ID card would have since the only known use of the name - as far as I recall - was in conjunction with the FPCC.

It would be pretty useless to use it in Mexico City when showing FPCC materials if you are applying for a transit visa as Oswald.

-- very good line of inquiry Steve! Including the police officer referred to as BO...

Its always good to be organized......very helpful on Kelley's part, Thanks Steve, that was a new one to me.

Talking with Harry was always entertaining, whatever else the man displayed an immense amount of energy - focus, not so much. Harry was one of those folks who sometimes seemed convincing simply because he was so convinced of whatever he might be talking about at the time.

Paul, I don't claim to be an expert in this but my understanding is that the 2017 date was established in the JFK records act; when individual records are released or when redaction are removed before that point is up to NARA and to the agencies whose records it holds (we are talking about records in the NARA collection, not any new records).

I don't think there was any Presidential order involved, this process is driven by the law, by NARA and by the Agencies whose records are in question. Take a look at the following from NARA.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/faqs.html

Having said that, I'll defer to folks that know much more about it - that's one reason why we are devoting a good bit of the Dallas conference to this subject, including one major panel on just that alone.