Allen Lowe

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I put in my 2 cents here (above).

My guess is whoever shot at Walker intended to miss. The bullet was actually deflected lower, towards Walker, after striking the the window frame. Walker initially thought kids were playing with firecrackers, or there might be fireworks outside (so he said). 

I may disagree with Larry Hancock on this one, which is not solid footing, btw.

Tennent Bagley ID'ed LHO as a "witting" CIA asset. Maybe Bagley was wrong, maybe he was right. Dan Hardway and John Newman seem to agree, somewhat. 

If LHO was a CIA asset, then it follows the Walker shooting was likely a "practice run" ---to test LHO's nerve at shooting at a public figure (but to miss). And to get LHO comfortable with the idea, that such a thing could be gotten away with.

I have read LHO missives to the world, and yes he had some evolving ideas regarding socialism, and so forth. He also served in the Marines and was possibly a CIA asset. 

You know, at age 24 and needing money and career advancement, LHO's ideology may have been secondary, or fluid. 

At age 24 my ideology, as it was, was not yet formed. Maybe not even yet. 

 

he had much more than some "evolving ideas." In one of the extant television interviews he makes a distinction between Marxism and Leninism - which indicates a high level of sophisticated knowledge of the Left and its factions. No casual observer would have made these distinctions, certainly not 60 years ago (are you aware of the difference? If not, that's fine, but it indicates that LHO was much more than an intellectual dilletante in these matters).

Just now, Vince Palamara said:

I rarely engage in photo interpretations like these images, but I always saw a hat.

Could be, but it looks awfully small.

9 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

the fedora hat photo is from the Moorman photo (the same location where both Tink Thompson and the acoustic studies pin pointed an origin for one of the shots)

It’s funny, I’ve always thought that thing that you were calling a fedora on the fence is actually the end of a gun barrel. In Thompson’s book where I first saw it it looks like solid metal.

All of the above, while intelligently invented, is all supposition, and takes a whole lot of possibles and turns them into certainties, which is not evidence. And remember Gordon Arnold talked about hearing the bullet come from behind the fence, which means he wasn’t behind the picket fence when the shots rang our, at least by his own telling. I appreciate the thought that goes into all these kind of stories, but it does neither side any good; all we have to go by is the empirical evidence, the testimony, the witnessing, which says Secret Service man, no documentation of who this could’ve been, and raises suspicions about the role of such a person. And let us not forget Roy Hargreaves, the known bearer of false Secret Service credentials, who  has admitted being in Dallas that day. 

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Andrew, you are right. I will correct my mistake on the libel. 

So I guess by your own standards this invalidates everything you’ve ever written. 

12 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Yes Mr. DiEugenio does not want people to read Dale Myers' article in full and decide for themselves. This is typical of Mr. DiEugenio's side hustle K&K conspiracy website. 

Also, Mr. DiEugenio does not mention the embarrassing mistake with the Elmer Todd initials on CE399, he himself admitted as an "errata". To date, as the Stone cartoon series is still playing, Stone and DiEugenio have not made any public statement/disclaimer to the viewing audience of their gross mistake. Therefore, it's business as usual with the Conspiracy Story Telling Genre of Stone/DiEugenio. If/when the Elmer Lee Todd family get notice of this, Stone and DiEugenio are potentially libel in film and book for not addressing the complete false characterization of Agent Todd as a devious conspirator, despite documents (as well as the ARRB) stating he did put his initials on CE399. Dr. Mantik has admitted his mistake and cleared himself by being honest and they know it was a blunder. 

 Stone and DiEugenio still sit on their hands and do nothing.  Honest brokers?

One mistake, maybe, Out of thousands of pages of JFK assassination documentation. You should be so lucky to produce anything of substance.

8 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

If you’d have listened to the interview, you’d hear him say he is suspicious of Jack Ruby’s role in the assassination. The larger point is that people here are lamely dismissing Gregory out of hand while totally ignoring the unique perspective provided by his rare, close proximity to the Oswalds at a critical period. 

Unique perspective? intimate friend? Four months worth, and his father knew Marina? This wreaks of lone-nut desperation. It’s really hard to argue with you guys, as I’ve said before, when the bar is set so low for the non-conspiracy side. Come on, give us something. I feel like we are reading your “research” off the back of a cereal box.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I'll refrain from dignifying your ignorant comment about whether I'm "up to speed on current developments in the case," because it's clear you don't have a clue what you're talking about. In the absence of any actual evidence for Oswald being a "witting asset" of the CIA, Bagley's statement is nothing more than one person's opinion.

Yes nothing more than one person‘s opinion, a person who was in the CIA, recognized all the signs, who understood the routing system, and was reluctant to make that declaration. But of course you know better than him.

The fact that you don’t know all that tells me a lot.

19 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

"Who we know was a CIA asset as part of a false defector program" ? You have absolutely ZERO hard evidence that this is true. Oswald's behavior in Russia also shows no evidence of him being complicit in such a thing.

I suppose you don’t know about what CIA man Bagley said? He said Oswald, based on the evidence, was a witting asset for the CIA. You may have missed this part of the evidence. The difficulty of debate here is that some of you are really not up to speed on current developments in the case. Not that this is even current, but rather some years old.

2 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Thanks for educated answer Jonathan. That's exactly right. Oswald was worried about being prosecuted for his actions while in Russia. 

Steve, two words: False Defector Program. 

18 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

So everyone connected to LHO automatically had CIA ties? That's a lot of people there lol.

This is the brilliant analysis you choose to share with the world. Ok...

Well how else to determine it? We keep citing Lee Harvey Oswald as being associated with all these CIA types, so we assume he’s a CIA type himself. Ruth Paine associates with him, not just meets him but takes his family in, drives his wife halfway across the country,  helps him get a job and walks him through life in Dallas. Be logical, what does all that mean? And thanks for the compliment.

47 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

IMO, no way can you lump RP in with Clay Shaw.

We have plenty of evidence tying Clay Shaw directly to nefarious dealings w LHO, the fascist right, and intelligence work.

We have only theoretical familial ties in that regard with RP. And we have no evidence whatsoever that she was a fascist sympathizer.

These two people are not the same.

Wrong, we have her direct  ties to Lee Harvey Oswald, who we know was a CIA asset as part of a false defector  program, and who came back to the USA to help destabilize the Fairplay for Cuba committee. So she had CIA ties right there and that’s not speculative.
 

Gotcha on this one.

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

    A somewhat odd coincidence.  This afternoon, I just happened to finish reading Stephen Kinzer's 2019 biography of MK-Ultra mastermind, Sidney Gottlieb, Poisoner-in-Chief.

    So, looking for some lighter reading material this evening, I resumed Bob Dylan's new book, The Philosophy of Modern Song, and eventually arrived at Chapter 27, pausing before each song/chapter to listen to the YouTube recording of the song for the chapter.  (One of tonight's chapters was about Marty Robbins' 1959 cowboy ballad, El Paso, which I knew by heart when I was a kid, but hadn't listened to for decades.)

    Anyway, chapter 27 is about the Fugs 1967 proto-punk song, C.I.A. Man.   I had heard this song before somewhere but I can't remember where.  Was it part of a movie soundtrack?   Punk rock historian Cliff Varnell probably knows.

    I was a bit surprised to hear in the lyrics that the Fugs, obviously, knew in 1967 about Sidney Gottlieb's MK-Ultra LSD research projects-- more than a decade before John Marks published The Search For the Manchurian Candidate, based on the MK-Ultra financial records.

    But, as Kinzer pointed out, John Lennon and other rockers also knew about the CIA's role in pushing LSD, because Lennon once said, "We must remember to thank the CIA for giving us LSD."

    Dylan mentions that the Fugs took their name from Norman Mailer's novel, The Naked and the Dead, where Mailer used "fug" for "f*ck" to circumvent obscenity allegations.  He also includes a photo in Chapter 27 of Allen Dulles' CIA photo ID card.

    The recording is raw and out-of-tune, like something Iggy Pop might have recorded in a garage, but it's funny.

 

You need to credit a lot more than John Lennon, who was relatively late to the party when it came to New York City political awareness of the CIA. Allen Ginsberg was talking about this very early in the sixties  as were the Fugs in the person of Tuli Kupferberg and the leader Ed Sanders. These guys were doing anti-nuke activities as early as 1961 and 1962. They were well head of their time.

On 10/27/2022 at 11:27 PM, Matt Allison said:

LOL

You really have no interest in the truth, do you?

Try telling it some time, and we’ll see.

The more I thought about this overnight the more silly it seemed. If you’re going to assassinate a president you pick a place you going to do it or want to do it. It’s not a matter of “hey here comes the motorcade let’s get in the building.” As we see with the Texas book depository it takes strategy, collusion, a means of escape, and a lot of other variables. Saying that as it wasn’t planned but rather a last-minute impulse is missing how well coordinated things clearly were, from the police to the Secret Service.

Even if Oswald as depository worker was a bit of a rush job, and there’s no way of knowing this in terms of prior collusion, It just means they were working on other ways to get it done in this prime location with possibly other patsys. And there were a lot more than three people on the ground, in terms of coverage, escape, distraction behind the fence – all things that have to have been planned well in advance. I’m just amazed anyone could think otherwise. 
 

and if they had taken another route? Just like in Miami and who knows elsewhere, it would’ve been postponed and reset. But that does not mean the location was chosen randomly, only that things, for once, aligned perfectly as they had not aligned before. They were stalking JFK, and would just have gone ahead to plan C or D.

Matt wants to keep denying this because otherwise it puts Mrs. Paine at the center.

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

The answer is they didn't. It wasn't necessary to do such a thing.

The entire motorcade through Dallas was one long opportunity to shoot JFK from a building with a rifle.

This was not a moon shot that needed weeks of planning.

And JFK agreed with me.

We’ll  hold a séance later to see if JFK agrees. As for the rest of what you say, it really doesn’t add up with any logic. A president is coming to town, they don’t say to themselves “oh there’s 40 places we can get him so what’s the rush, and we’ll figure it out at the last minute.“ This was a President of the United States. A president. 

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

How do you know the plotters picked the TSBD on or prior to October 3rd 1963?

Because you don’t plan that complex a crime, with all its odd tentacles, both intelligence and non intelligence, at the last minute. The logistics, the political requirements, the need for immediate follow up and cover up, from the hospital to the autopsy. That’s common sense. You don’t leave it to chance.

It’s clear that JFK was being stalked, not confronted with chance plots.

On 10/19/2022 at 1:38 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Other ways the 2nd floor encounter has been debunked:

1. In his first-day statement, Officer Baker never mentions an encounter with Oswald. Though he DID mention a similar encounter with another man on a different floor. You'd think that he'd want to mention the man taken into custody. LOL
2. Officer Baker supposedly made a mad dash for the TSBD, and up the steps in time to encounter Oswald on the second floor. But the Darnell film makes it is easy to prove that he wasn't headed toward the TSBD door at all. He was headed toward the corner of Houston and Elm. (See this.) But the WC had to make Baker enter the TSBD quickly to get their timing right.
3. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady kept changing their stories regarding seeing Vickie Adams as she reached the first floor. And there is proof of some of their lies. (For example, Shelley first said that he ran across to the concrete island where he met Gloria Calvery. The Darnell film is consistent with that. But for the WC he said that he stayed on the steps for ~3 minutes for Calvery to arrive at the steps. This is inconsistent with the Darnell film, but it helped the WC discredit Vicki Adams.)
4. The Darnell film shows that Gloria Calvery arrived at the TSBD stairway within 30 seconds after the last shot. Yet both Shelley AND Lovelady estimated the time to be 3 minutes! I can see people getting the time wrong, but having it off by exactly the same number sounds like witness coaching to me!
5. Not surprisingly, Vickie Adams told Barry Earnest that she did not see Shelley and Lovelady upon reaching the first floor.
6. The Stroud document shows how introduction of the 2nd-floor encounter fabrication introduced a new unforeseen problem... not a surprising effect of mixing fiction with fact.
7. And there's more! Read Bart Kamp's Anatomy of the Second-Floor Lunchroom Encounter. Where all of his evidence and analyses are thoroughly documented.

 

This is great work, and though I’ve known about it for a while it’s nice to see it so succinctly expressed. Over at Greg Parkers forum  they’ve  also done some very nice work on this.

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

It's you who's got things backwards. The TSBD job came first. Oswald's desire to kill the President came second. It was entirely a murder of opportunity.

 

Typical silly CTer motto there. You should have it tattooed on your forehead.

Oh I get it he commits the crime of the Century accidentally, by convenience, by opportunity. I mean, here’s the president  I might as well do it now even though I haven’t fired a rifle in years, but just be sure I order one with a huge paper trail so everybody knows it was me.

One of the things that I’ve noticed happening on the Lone Nutter side is that your arguments have gotten weaker and weaker as time has passed. Everything is a coincidence, all the CIA connections, all of LHO’s intelligence associations. And of course it’s a coincidence that you’re here to keep an eye on us all.

Just to get away from the local sharks, I want to mention something, a lie that Ruth told in the documentary that is blatant and undeniable. She sells us how Oswald called her on Sunday night November 24. Guess what? He was dead by Sunday night November 24. This is a woman who is a borderline sociopath and not to be believed.

7 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Boy, you really have no idea what you’re talking about, do you? Oswald didn’t “wait for third parties to get him into the Depository” for the purpose of assassinating JFK. He’d already been working there for weeks before the motorcade route was even announced. Why you claim that “the question is who got him in there” is beyond me. Linnie Mae Randle heard that the TSBD might need seasonal help and told Ruth Paine, who then told Oswald. The end.

You really have no idea what I meant about the third parties, which doesn’t say much for your general reading comprehension. Jesus, learn to read. I was addressing the third parties point to people who think there wasn’t a conspiracy. OK? And you’re completely in space about what Randal said – she said she gave Mrs. Paine several options and had no idea what was going on after she told her that, but then at one point Mrs. Payne asked her to call the Texas book depository, which she wouldn’t do. This is completely opposed to the emphasis you were placing on it. Which makes me not trust much else that you’re saying.

On 10/22/2022 at 11:40 PM, David Von Pein said:

From 2013:

THOMAS GRAVES SAID:

I think Linnie Mae [Randle] told the commission the truth because, well, I just can't see any reason for her to lie about it. If Linnie May [sic] did tell the truth, it suggests that Ruth Paine may have been much more directly responsible for Oswald's getting a job in a tall building on the motorcade route than has previously been thought by many people.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID (with emphasis added by DVP on 10/22/2022):

Huh?

Actually, if Linnie Mae Randle told the whole truth (and why in the world would anybody suspect she didn't--at any time?), it means exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting here, Tommy.

Because it means that it was really LINNIE MAE, and NOT Ruth Paine, who was the MOST responsible (albeit indirectly) for Oswald finding a job at the Book Depository. For it was LINNIE MAE, not Ruth Paine, who brought up the topic of a possible job opening at the Depository during the coffee-break get-together at Dorothy Roberts' house on 10/14/63.

In other words -- If Linnie Mae had not been there at Dorothy Roberts' house, it's a virtual certainty that Lee Oswald would have never gone to the TSBD the next day to seek out employment -- because without Linnie Mae bringing up the topic of the Depository, how could Ruth Paine (or Marina) have ever even known about the possible job opening there?

The conspiracy theorists should be going after Linnie Randle, not Ruth Paine, as much more of a "conspirator" in any silly plot to "plant" Lee Harvey Oswald in the Book Depository. Because without Linnie's presence at the coffee klatch, it's my very firm belief that John F. Kennedy doesn't get assassinated on November 22nd.

Well you do have things backwards and upside down as usual David. As does almost everyone else here. But for you I say, if Lee Harvey Oswald did this thing by himself it makes no sense that he would go and wait for third parties to get him into the Depository.  He wants to kill the president, he’s got to get a job in that building. he cannot take a chance. So then the question is who got him in there? I have no idea, but it had to be… A conspirator. So David you’ve disproved your own argument. Everybody’s been lying.

6 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

No Allen you are the official story here. I can recite all your real talking points. Some are valid, and have been discussed, but always to a stalemate, but most are bs. Your story is the most commonly developed story here over the last 10 years. New people come on the site and are lead to Jim's K&K, which is a good source to be lead into. I agree with the vast majority of it. But unfortunately,there's become a sort of sameness that was particularly stultifying here about 3 years ago. And it's about issues like this. This discussion wasn't possible. What's also hopeful, is now, fortunately, we've opened up and gotten some good new researchers.

 

And I do think the direction of research over the coming years will be away from the Paines. As Simpich said in the film, researchers these days are evaluating Ruth as  an "unwitting" accomplice. So hard core ideologues  like you and Jim Di who believe RP was planting evidence, are becoming more fringe.   But to stay on point.

 I've made a number of detailed, contradictory challenges to the official story here, to complete silence.   I assume when people run from responses, that they realize they don't have arguments they can defend.

And you're not responding to Matt's posts, who has successfully refuted most of your points, which were actually developed as the point of least resistance here, and not through questioning any authority, but adopting the dogma. It's understandable, but after years, it does become intellectual laziness.

 

Kirk please pay attention: She was witting, because she knew she was handling Oswald. That doesn’t mean she was a conspirator in the direct sense, only that she helped move things around for those who were. You completely misunderstood what Simpich said, which does not bode well for your other arguments.

On 10/22/2022 at 10:26 PM, Matt Allison said:

Mysterious because she found it? 

1. She didn't get Oswald the job at TSBD, she passed along the info from Linnie Mae Randle.

2. She didn't know a single thing about an offer that was "better". And she passed along earlier offers from the Employment Commission that Oswald followed up on.

Your guilt by association claims are LAZY and you have no PROOF of any nefarious actions. NONE.

You've done nothing but subscribe to the decades-old dogma that Ruth Paine conspired to kill JFK which is complete BULLSHIT.

These lazy takes do nothing but make real JFKA research look like a joke; fringe tin foil hat stuff.

Do you think the 2020 election was stolen as well?  Because your bar for EVIDENCE is as low as the traitors that invaded the Capitol.

 

By the way, and this pretty much kills your credibility, people  who think Ruth was involved don’t think she was responsible for the assassination. She was a handler. Your own lack of knowledge  on the matter pretty much disqualifies you from making these kinds of bad guesses. 

On 10/22/2022 at 11:27 PM, Matt Allison said:

1. She didn't get Oswald the job at TSBD, she passed along the info from Linnie Mae Randle.

2. She didn't know a single thing about an offer that was "better". And she passed along earlier offers from the Employment Commission that Oswald followed up on.

 

The problem with you sad boys is that you’re starting to believe the very people who help set up The whole post assassination disinformation. Randal and her brother are not to Be believed about anything, she changed her story about the bag, for a start. And her brother’s entire story is fictional. So if you want the truth you got to start from scratch, see what Ruth was doing and why she was doing it, and see how Oswald was manipulated by her, and many others. Good night. Just the very story of her driving Marina around the country should show you how ridiculous your position is. I don’t really care what you wrote because if you can’t read how can you write?