Robert Prudhomme

Thank you, Bjorne and Richard. I have a better understanding of the elevators now. Clearly, anyone boarding the east elevator could do so without the knowledge of a person using the stairway and only observing the elevators from the small space between up and down stairway entrances.

Because maybe Sawyer asked them, "Well, fellers, did ya run into anybody up there?" (Just an idea.) --Tommy Indeed, one of those "fellers" had just seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, yet, by the time he returned to the 1st floor, he somehow knew Oswald was missing from the TSBD and was quick to point this out to Chief Lumkin.

Hello Richard I am glad you are asking for photos of these elevators as I am a little puzzled at how they are depicted on the floor plans, as seen in the floor plan of the 2nd floor I have linked to below: http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26 Where were the entrances to the elevators? Did the entrances face east and west?

Hello Ian Are you saying that Truly telephoned his wife before he and Baker made their trip upstairs? Would you please direct me to the source of this information? Thanks.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams, April 7, 1964: "Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant? Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby. And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what. Mr. BELIN - That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this? Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles."

Hi Richard, I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40. To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator: Thanks for posting this report, Sean. I have not seen it before. Regarding the two Men that passed by Mooney, it is definitely my belief that they end up being the Fake SS Agents at the rear entrance a few minutes later. I am wondering now if they paused at the 2nd floor elevator (after passing Mooney on the stairs) and are the same two men that Vicky Adams runs into in the West Elevator in her attempt to go back upstairs. Hello Richard Would it make sense that these two men in suits and hats would be trying to go back up to the upper floors of the TSBD in an elevator after just having descended the stairs? I should think, if they were part of the conspiracy, they would be making their way directly to an exit. That being said, is it possible to ID these two men Vicki Adams encountered on the elevator at the 2nd floor?

I have been attempting to make inquiries with the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, with little success. I repeatedly get transferred to someone's line, who is inevitably never there, and get asked to leave a number they can call me back on, which never happens. As well as the questions in my opening post, I would like to know if "plainclothes deputy sheriff" holds some special status, similar to detective, or if any deputy out of uniform is called a plainclothes deputy sheriff. I believe finding the identity of these two men Mooney met is very important, easily as important as identifying the two Secret Service "Agents" met at the rear of the TSBD by Sgt. Harkness of the DPD shortly after Mooney met them as deputy sheriffs.

Hello Richard It is a bit difficult to conceive of Deputy Mooney arriving at the freight elevators prior to 12:36; in fact, it is difficult conceiving of him arriving at the elevators prior to 12:40. If we read Deputy Mooney's Supplementary Investigation Report of 23/11/63, we can see that Deputy Mooney was a very busy man up to the point he boarded the freight elevator. "I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator."

I imagine so, Robert, as a motorcycle-riding element was included in the reconstruction. That makes sense.

Sheriff Bill Decker? Did WC member John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky, make the trip to Dallas? From photos I've seen of Cooper with his glasses on, it appears this may be Cooper. He did make the trip. He would be another candidate. Video link below. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3z_O3yfRKQ Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?

Thank you for the breakdown, Richard. This is a fascinating thread, and I, for one, am looking at old material in a totally new way; thanks to you gentlemen.

Thank you Robert. Mr. BELIN - Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door? Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway. Thank you, Raymond.

You are forgetting something, Sean. Baker testified that he planned to check each floor, if I am not mistaken. Your theory is based on the false premise that Baker testified that he checked each floor but not the second floor. By Baker's own testimony we can draw the inference that he deliberately checked the 2nd floor by deliberately entering the lunchroom, as part of his plan to check each floor. It would only be peculiar if he HAD NOT checked that lunchroom! Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there. Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know? Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me. Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.

Another brilliant catch, Sean, and I did not realize just how brilliant until I went back and studied the floor plan of the 2nd floor of the TSBD; which I have linked below for others to refer to: http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26 One glaring thing that stands out immediately is that Baker, whom we assume is hard on Truly's heels and making a hard left after emerging from the staircase onto the 2nd floor landing, is never in a position to be able to see Oswald in the lunchroom, unless Oswald has his face pressed up against the window of the lunchroom door. Baker would have to look through the small windows of two doors which, unfortunately for the WC apologists, are not even close to being lined up to the line of sight of Baker emerging from the staircase and heading for the 2nd floor. It would make far more sense, assuming the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter actually did occur, for Baker/Truly to take the front staircase and pass through the vestibule of the lunchroom on the way to the back staircase. In that scenario, Baker/Truly would go past the single door to the lunch room and a quick glance to the right by Baker, through the door window, would find Oswald with his Coke in the lunchroom. However, in light of the material revealed in the last few posts by you and Mr. Hocking, I am seriously beginning to doubt that Baker/Truly went up any stairs at all. Brilliant research, gentlemen, and I have to say I have learned more about the assassination on this thread, and this forum, in the last few months than I have learned in the last ten years. Keep up the good work! P.S. This has probably been shown a thousand times but, for the benefit of those younger people new to the case, here is what Baker would have seen emerging from the staircase at the 2nd floor landing: http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=28 As can be seen in this WC photo, the only thing visible through this door is the wall to the right of the lunchroom door. As Baker moves to his left, towards the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, his line of sight through this first door actually moves away from the lunchroom door.

You have to hate witnesses who stray from the script.

and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." Great catch, Robin. You are right and Murph is wrong, just like he was wrong about the music! In his WC testimony, Roy Truly was a bit more specific in describing his and Officer Baker's movements as they ran toward the TSBD entrance. Excellent work, Michael; end of argument.

Hmmm...good question, Robin.

I think after 50 years and some amazing research, the broad outlines of the plot keep on becoming clearer, IMO. From John Newman we know that Angleton & Co. were monitoring Oz, and from David Lifton and Vince Palamara we know a number of Secret Service agents were involved. Sorrels had to be key plotter, because he is the man who led JFK into ambush. I understand what you are saying, Ray, but I am not 100% convinced Forrest Sorrels planned the parade route with an ambush in mind. Years ago, I subscribed to the theory the parade route was changed, from going straight down Main St. onto Stemmons Freeway to the 120° turn onto Elm St. then to Stemmons, for the express purpose of leading JFK past the TSBD. It was not until I visited Dealey Plaza, in the 1990's, that I saw for myself the concrete divider that prevents cars from turning off Main St. onto the Stemmons Freeway. This divider was there in 1963, as well, and prevents Main St. traffic from cutting in front of through traffic on Elm St. From what I can gather, two solutions to this problem had been considered by the Secret Service. The first would have been to place temporary ramps on the divider to allow JFK's limo to go over the divider. This was abandoned, considering how low to the ground the limo was. The second was to continue down Main St. to the next on ramp after Elm St. This was abandoned, as well, as the limo would have to travel through an unsightly and rough part of Dallas. With this in mind, the parade route does not seem so ridiculous after all, although a plotter looking at the parade route would be quick to capitalize on the advantages of an ambush in Dealey Plaza. Are there other clues pointing to Forrest Sorrels as an accomplice?

Brilliant piece of deduction, Sean, and I am especially impressed by the fact you were able to re-examine Barry Ernest's work and admit he may have been right all along. This brand of humility is sadly lacking in many researchers and prevents them, often, from seeing the truth. On that note, is it at all possible that Sandra and Vicki were so quick going down the stairs that they were already on the 1st floor while Baker and Truly were still attempting to board the elevator (or stopping Oswald on the 1st floor)? And, just to play the Devil's advocate (and I'm sure I'll get blasted for this one), could Vicki and Sandra have been starting down the staircase at the time Oswald was still hiding the rifle on the 6th floor? Could they have been early enough to miss Oswald AND the Baker/Truly duo?

Exactly, Michael, glint off a coke bottle is a very strong possibility. The fact that Wiegman shows one hand up to the face while the other is still kept raised to chest level is IMO extremely significant, for it suggests a ) he cannot have been using a camera b ) he was holding something in both hands. What I'm seeing is either this-- --or its reverse (i.e. drinking the coke using one hand and holding the sandwich in the other). Again we must remind ourselves of Fritz's words during his WC testimony: Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.[/size] I believe that's exactly what Lee Oswald did tell Fritz he was doing--only he didn't say he was doing it in the second-floor lunchroom, he said he was doing it out front. If so, then Fritz has just seconds before his comment above committed a major boo-boo: Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...[/size] He was having his lunch ... he was eating lunch: same timeframe, same claim. I believe Oswald named one of the "employees" he had been eating lunch with, and it wasn't 'Junior' [Jarman] or the short 'negro' [Norman] (whose names did come up in a different context). It was Bill Shelley. Excellent observation. I think you have pretty well eliminated the possibility of Prayer Man holding a camera.

Don't you find this statement a bit strange, in light of Truly signing an affidavit on 23/11/63 where he not only sees Oswald on the 2nd floor as baker sticks a that it was him asking Shelley if Shelley had seen Oswald. and not Shelley asking Truly if he had seen Oswald? Should Truly not have said, "Oh, we saw him on the 2nd floor. He may still be up there, for all we know." How would Forrest Sorrels know, at this point, that Oswald had left the TSBD? I don't see anything strange about the Shelley -Truly confusion. I've seen it happen a million times. Sorrels is the guy who chose the ridiculous parade route, so he had to know what was going down that day I have to disagree with you on this one. Truly supposedly saw Oswald on the 2nd floor only minutes before Shelley asked Truly if he saw Oswald, and Truly can't recall seeing Oswald and seeing Baker pointing a gun at him? Outside of the two "officers" Baker and Truly encountered on the 4th floor, who else did they see? How does choosing the parade route give Forrest Sorrels the ability to know if Oswald is still in the TSBD?

Forrest Sorrels was involved. It may be in Sorrels testimony, but I recall from somewhere that Sorrels asked Truly to see if all his men were accounted for. I believe it was Sorrels, knowing that Lee had already done an Elvis and left the building, who initiated the inquiry. Once again, from Bill Shelley's affidavit of 22/11/63: "After the President's accident (?), I started checking around and I'd missed Lee. I ask Mr. Truly about him and he said he had not seen him." Don't you find this statement a bit strange, in light of Truly signing an affidavit on 23/11/63 where he not only sees Oswald on the 2nd floor as baker sticks a gun in his stomach, but he also states that it was him asking Shelley if Shelley had seen Oswald. and not Shelley asking Truly if he had seen Oswald? Should Truly not have said, "Oh, we saw him on the 2nd floor. He may still be up there, for all we know." How would Forrest Sorrels know, at this point, that Oswald had left the TSBD?

Roy Truly's affidavit of 23/11/63 has some interesting information, as well. "We searched the roof and a small room, also checked the landings. We could look out over the tracks and street below. We did not find anything. We started down on the elevator. The officer took a hurried look on a couple of floors on the way down. We then met some other officers on the 4th floor searching the building. I overheard someone say that the shot came from the window of our building. By that time there was several people in the building. Some fifteen minutes later I was checking our employees, and I did not find Lee. I asked Mr. Shelley if he had seen Lee. He said no. I then contacted Chief Lumkin and told him Lee was missing." Just the day before, it was Shelley who claimed he had asked Truly if he had seen Lee, to which Truly had replied no. And there are the two officers on the 4th floor again. Strange.

Interesting bit of information I just discovered in an affidavit given by Bill Shelley on 22/11/63. "After the President's accident (?), I started checking around and I'd missed Lee. I ask Mr. Truly about him and he said he had not seen him."

Thanks for posting this song. My Mom's father was in the First World War and, when I was little, he and I would sing this song when we were out driving somewhere. It seemed like such a happy song and it wasn't until I had grown up and he had passed away that I learned what a hell he had lived through in those four years in the trenches in France. Thinking of this now, I was always impressed that he was able to come back to Canada, hold it together and raise a family.