Tom Neal

The implication seeming to be that anyone questioning the assassination is not to be taken seriously.

...OR, it's a REALLY big thing, and he's not about to open that Pandora's Box!

Tom

And I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Obama.

Jon,

Personally, I'm not a "huge" fan of anyone in politics right now, but in the sense of choosing the better of two less than ideal candidates... I'm curious; do you think the USA would be better off today if McCain or Romney had been elected instead of Obama?

Tom

Anyone know how well this book is selling?

Why is it that Lone Nut books make the best seller list before they're released? Why it's almost as if someone were able to control this sort of thing...

Tom

Anyone read this? Comments?

http://www.amazon.com/Dallas-63-Against-Forbidden-Bookshelf-ebook/dp/B013S42VFQ/ref=pd_sim_351_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=51iD7kcKODL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR104%2C160_&refRID=1CCDMEGXQVR4N7EYP32F

The trailer is watchable in HD here:

You must jump over to Vimeo to watch it.

Is anyone able to stream this?

Tom

Tom, I looked at the code behind that it doesn't appear to be on that site at all. I doubt that page will give you anything except a bad case of "spam".

Thanks for checking, Chris!

I couldn't find anything at all, but sometimes with different browsers or whatever...

Too bad. I'd sure LIKE to see this.

Tom

I see that in the US it may be possible to see and - maybe even - down load the film. This address appears to be streaming the film. However it is not available to the UK.

http://www.fulltv.tv/movies/a-coup-in-camelot-2014.html

Is anyone able to stream this?

Tom

I just looked through the book. Lifton does mention a "second morgue" (p. 623 of my paperback edition), but only to state that he knew there wasn't one, because he "personally inspected the morgue facilities at Bethesda."

Thanks for checking!

Someone else is thus the source for the two morgues. I remember it being discussed here... As for the floor tile in that photo, I know of no other autopsy photo showing the floor. Wall tile, I would think, would be different from floor tile in any case.

Along with the floor and wall tiles, IIRC, JFK's 'head support' was not recognized by anyone at Bethesda.

Tom,

Abebooks have copies of the Best Evidence for a few dollars. They even have hard back copies. Might be worth a look. I got an excellent hard back copy there.

James

Thanks for idea, James. They have been my favorite source for used books for decades.

My book collection has overrun the house, and I can't tolerate the thought of losing my library. My solution has been the wholesale scanning of the collection and converting them to ebooks. At the moment I'm FINALLY starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I'm resisting the purchase of any new non-ebooks, but I will have to purchase BE and Larry Hancock's 2010 version of "Someone Would Have Talked" and add them to the "To Be Scanned" pile.

Tom

Dr. McClellan said on camera during an interview that Jackie handed him a piece of JFK's brain. That piece obviously was not blasted skyward or forward into the front part of the car.

IMO that piece of brain was retrieved by her from the trunk at the time Clint Hill arrived and moved her back into the seat.

The reported coup de grace to Tippit's skull is noteworthy and suspicious. It suggests the killer was trying to inflict a specific skull wound.

Considering the shot to Tippit's head was from point blank range with a pistol, any skull damage would be a rather poor match for a 200-300 foot shot with a rifle.

Finally, I wish the experts here would address this question, in depth, without bias: Who had the power and the willingness to cause the fudging of JFK's autopsy? I'm talking principals, not mere agents, when I ask "who".

ADM Calvin B. Galloway who was in charge of the Bethesda complex. I'm unfamiliar with the Chain of Command "layers" from Galloway upward, but the Chief of Naval Operations is the direct link to the POTUS. LBJ of course had the authority to order anyone to do anything by invoking the National Security angle. My question is, would CNO ADM David L. McDonald order Galloway to do this without permission from LBJ? This would of course be a "Seven Days in (Le)May" scenario.

Tom

PS I personally would not have put it past ADM George Anderson, the previous CNO...

Don't know. I think Lifton's book is where I read about the two morgues, but I'm not sure. I recall something about animal cages in the old morgue, and that part of one may be seen on the floor in the death-stare autopsy photo. There was also the question of whether the tile on the floor in that photo would match the tile in the new morgue.

Now that you mention the tiles, etc. I think you're absolutely right.

If only I had a copy of BE I'd look it up...never loan out books...never.

Tom

FWIW there were two morgues at Bethesda. An old one (no longer in use, presumably) and the new one. Perhaps work was done in both morgues that night.

That would be RATHER handy.

Ron, do you know where the 'old morgue' was located relative to the one that was used to perform the "official" autopsy?

Tom

What if it ended up back where it started from, in the back of JFK's head?

The mortician's were explicit that they sewed a rubber sheet across that opening, so it could only have been done after the mortician's released the body.

Considering Burkley's statement to Kinney and the fact that it's never been seen again leads me to believe it was disposed of. That however is strictly conjecture on my part.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Clinton J. Hill, Secret Service:

"Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head."

Does anyone know what became of the "right rear portion" of JFK's head, seen lying in the rear seat of the limo by Clint Hill?

Hi Bob,

JFK's limo and the SS follow-up car were carried back to DC in a USAF C-130. While in flight Sam Kinney inspected JFK's limo. On the rear seat "just where Clint Hill said it was" he found the rear piece of JFK's skull. When asked if he was certain that's what it was, he replied, "I don't see what else it could be." He called Burkley via a phone patch while enroute. He stated that he gave it to Burkley or one of his aides. Presumably when in DCA and speaking directly to Burkley, Kinney asked, "What should I do with it?" and Burkley replied "Get rid of it!" I have no idea what transpired after this conversation, but to the best of my knowledge that's the last time this piece of skull was seen.

The above is sourced in a number of places, but I believe that ALL of this info came from Vince Palamara's many interviews with Sam Kinney. All of the above can be referenced in VP's outstanding "Survivor's Guilt."

Tom

PS Bob, if you want any more details it would probably be easier to PM me.

Do you know if the portable unit was used for all the x-rays?

According to the two x-rays techs, ONLY the portable machine was used.

there was a period of time (about an hour?) when Humes had the body before the gallery was filled and the official autopsy began. A regular x-ray machine might have been used then.

The non-portable x-ray equipment was on the 4th floor. IMO the body would have been seen at sometime during the required round trip, and we would have at least heard stories that this had happened.

Tom said:

Why chop up the lungs looking for bullets/fragments when you could send the right lung with one of the techs to use the available high-res x-ray machine? Unless of course your goal was to destroy the evidence of a perforated lung with dust-like "particles that look like metal but are actually dirt" to quote Ebersole and the HSCA.

But the part about dust-like particles looking like metal to a radiologist, Dr. Ebersole, certainly grabs my attention, particularly in light of this frangible/exotic bullet discussion. Unexposed film in hospitals doesn't get dirty.

ALL of the removed internal organs could have been transported to the high-res x-ray machine and x-rayed en masse by one or both techs while Humes and the others continued with their work. With this option readily available, what possible reason could they have for breaking out the meat cleaver? Hmmm...the topic of a frangible as well as an 'exotic' type of bullet was brought up by the FBI, who immediately called the FBI Lab to ask about these alternatives to an FMJ. The FBI concluded these were possibilities. Of course, If you are not allowed to produce evidence of a frangible bullet then you would NOT use the equipment that would have revealed one if it was present.

The cut-up organs were 'put back into the body'. Is this normal procedure, or was it a quick and easy way to get rid of incriminating evidence?

Tom

Interesting point you made, Sandy, about the lower quality of the portable x-ray machines. That would certainly explain the oddity of slicing up all of the organs in their search for a bullet. Call me stupid but, why not just take the organs to the stationary x-ray unit and get a better look?

Robert and Sandy,

In my post #317-806 on 11-04-2015 I pointed out that the radiology techs stated that the portable x-ray machine was low resolution and only good enough to find bullets or large fragments. I stated the same conclusion that you did. i.e. Why chop up the lungs looking for bullets/fragments when you could send the right lung with one of the techs to use the available high-res x-ray machine? Unless of course your goal was to destroy the evidence of a perforated lung with dust-like "particles that look like metal but are actually dirt" to quote Ebersole and the HSCA. And of course the sole x-ray of the lungs has disappeared from the archives.

Tom

Zapruder crops ( Original frames provided by Craig Lamson )

Regardless of the position of JFK's head, that 'much too dark shadow' seems to be fixed in place as though it was attached to the back of his head. And IMO it is a paint job to hide the hole in the back of his head which was described by every witness.

In Z-337 he appears to have something larger than his head stuck against his head forward and above his right ear. No witness described any damage remotely like this artwork. But Jackie pushed all of the stuff into his head and closed the skull so neatly that this damage was invisible to everyone at Parkland?

First, I should state that I believe all of the evidence points to JFK being shot twice in the head, with one bullet entering in the right (or possibly left - that theory is far from dead) temple and

one bullet entering low and to the right on the rear of JFK's head.

At the present time that appears to be the most likely scenario, IMO.

I believe the back of the head was the first bullet to enter, and that the large wound created by the temple shot partially obliterated the rear entrance wound in the skull.

All bullets fired had to be frangible bullets, although likely of a fairly primitive construction...

Absolutely agree on that point. Considering the stated issue at autopsy of multiple bullet wounds that did not exit, and no bullets in the body it's almost impossible to consider any FMJ bullets. Personally, I can't come up with any reason for Greer's actions other than he wanted JFK dead. If so, it would take a lot of guts to be in the limo with the target. Perhaps he was assured that only the BEST marksmen would be used, and they would use bullets that would not exit. Also, they were probably reluctant to take out the Connally's and Jackie.

A frangible bullet, likely the last shot, also entered JFK's right temple...Either way, the large blowout in the rear of JFK's head was created by this shot... ...my experience hunting deer with hollow point bullets has demonstrated that the large hydraulic pressure created by such a bullet will cause the skull to blow out in unexpected places.

The pressure wave propagating inside the virtually spherical skull would produce equal pressure on all parts of the skull, thus the weakest part would fail first. If, as you propose, the shot to the back of the head occurred prior to the front shot, the weakened skull would fail at the rear entry point.

Tom,

It was very, very easy. Just googled, in quotation marks, "bill shelley" and then clicked on IMAGES and scrolled down a bit.

And wah law, this is what I just now came up with -- a great, new (to me) website called Prayer Man.

Enjoy!

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/bill-shelley/

--Tommy

Thanks Tommy,

I actually had this one already, but the PM site is new to me, also.

Are the dates for Shelly that I posted correct?

Tom

Yes, that's definitely Bill Shelley.

In case you didn't know, Shelley was photographically "captured" that afternoon

(wearing tie but sans coat), drinking coffee just

inside the TSBD front doors (with some guys who look like reporters).

Tommy,

Thanks for the confirmation. I have not seen this photo of a coat-less Shelley. Any idea where I might find?

Assuming I found the right guy, your 1925 birth date is very close:

William Hoyt Shelley

b. 12 APR 1926

d. 6 SEPT 1996

Maggie Marie Shelley (Wife)

b. 1927

(alive as of 2012)

Tom

Mr. Trejo

Please put me back on block. thanks.

Martin,

A polite request to be put on BLOCK...

ROTFL!!!

Thanks for providing "My Mandatory Laugh of the Day!"

Tom

There is no reference to this. It is just one of the many speculations that Roy makes in his post 414.

Thank you James.

I agree with you 100% -- I just wanted to hear Roy say it. BTW, did you count how many speculations are presented as unquestionable facts in his post?

Tom

I didn't realize that if you say somebody misunderstood you, that this means you are blaming them for the misunderstanding.

"A" makes a statement -- "B" "misunderstands." i.e. by definition of the word "misunderstand"; "B" "fail(ed) to interpret or understand the words or action..."

When the word "misunderstand" is used by "A" in reference to communication with "B":

1. the statement of "A" is correct, and therefore "A" is BLAMELESS for the "misunderstanding."

2. "B" is solely responsible for the error in communication

An apparent or actual miscommunication can be caused by:

1. "A" failed to properly express himself, thus "A" is at fault

2. "B" understood but "A" INCORRECTLY believes that "B" did not understand, thus "A" is at fault

3. "B" understood but his poorly worded reply to "A" indicates to "A" that "B" failed to understand, thus "B" is at fault

4. "B" failed to comprehend the properly composed statement of "A", thus "B" is at fault

5. Either "A" or "B" or "A" and "B" are looking for an argument...

To acknowledge an *apparent* misunderstanding, use of the word "We" is highly recommended. The word "You" is not.

e.g. "We are experiencing a communication breakdown, and I don't know why."

Thus, a communication issue is presented, but NO BLAME is assigned to EITHER "A" or "B".

This technique is most often referred to as "I'm OK, you're OK."

Well, as I said before, I believe the word "misunderstand" merely denotes a case of Person A saying X and Person B interpreting it as Y, without regard for where any blame belongs. After all, how can one determine whether Person A said what he did clearly enough, or Person B didn't listen carefully enough? And even if one could, what purpose would be served in doing so? Just to point fingers?

My attitude in general is that pointing to people's mistakes in interpersonal relationships serves no useful purpose. People make mistakes... that's life.

Anyway, now that I know someone might take offense at the word "misunderstand," I will try to use it more carefully.

Dictionaries are wrong -- Got it!

Last time I looked at this photo, it was in the midst of a "Is this Shelley or a detective?" debate. Has a consensus been reached that this IS Bill Shelley?

Thanks for any info...

Here is one of the last posts he sent me in that private thread:

Chris,

Every investigation - DPD, FBI, WC, HSCA - concluded Oswald killed JFK and Tippit and wounded Connally, so the trial aspect really isn't relevant. Furthermore, no evidence has surfaced that Oswald could not have done it and no one has proven the SBT could not have happened; absent any strong, conflicting evidence, therefore, it must have happened. While the SBT started as a theory, it's the one theory that has been proven beyond reasonable doubt since nothing has surfaced indicating the wounds were caused any other way.

This is the GM that I 'know' and loath. As the "icon" for LHO as LN, this person did more to pervert the thinking of the population over a period of decades than anyone including "The Kennedy Detail". Yet for some reason his demise made him untouchable on this forum. This post is what GM has been selling (and "selling" is precisely the word - as he has received money in exchange for his salesmanship) to the masses for decades. It's only my personal opinion that he actually knows the truth, and if so then he has sold out for 'fame fortune.'

At the start of the parade Kennedy told him to let his seat down all the way because he was sitting so much higher than JBC. The Catholic-hating Orangeman had it up about all the way.

This is new to me. Can you provide a source for this exchange?