Terry Mauro

Gary Mack has advised me that the man is Jim Featherston, who worked for the Dallas Times-Herald.

Thanks to Gary,

I'm going to try to keep my specualtion on photography to a minimum!,

John

Jim Featherston with Mary Moorman.

************************************************

I may be chasing waterfalls, here. But, who is this cop taking up the rear here, in the Tramps photo? And, could someone make a blow-up of this cop's face, and place a blow-up of that outlined picture of Badgeman, side by side for me, please? Just curious.

Thanks,

Ter

Uncropped tramp photo:

In a blow up of this photo there appears to be a man in the Carpark area at the end of the wall.

"(When she ain't "dittoing." I can say that with aplomb because she isn't close enough to punch me.)"

Yeah, and I bet you're just so "ecstatic" that they got rid of the "color coding" so now I can't distinguish my answers to the "color-coded" comments, either. Aren't ya?

Remember, I was raised with brothers who wanted to make sure I could take care of myself. Especially, due to my "UNBRIDLED LOUD-MOUTHED" way of expressing [my] opinions, AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT, Pal!

Cliff, throw Allen Dulles in there. For whom did he work, really? And, all the names you mentioned were loyal to Dulles.

I believe all it took was one conversation between one (very rich and powerful) man and Dulles and the whole thing swung into being.

Again, for whom did Allen Dulles work?

Terry said it very well above. Who does the CIA really represent? Who does the U.S. military really represent?

For the extremely wealthy there are no consequences - except, that is, between them and God.

I don't believe now that it really had anything to do with Cuba. It was a battle for control of the government - Cuba was a backdrop just like a lot of the other stuff. JFK was too smart for them, and they (the eastern established ruling class) would not allow everything they had to be taken away. Not one inch. Jack, Bobby, and then Ted? No way.

Also, I think part of this was personal. JFK was slaughtered in public. There were so many other ways they could've taken him out. He dared to take on the powers that be in a very reckless way -- very much like he lived the rest of his life.

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

Bankers and the War Party.

That's where I am today. FWIW.

***********************************************

The Rockefellers

The Morgans

The Lodges

Dean Acheson

Walt Rostow

The Bundys

And, lest we not forget those glad-handing, back-stabbers, the Harrimans.

"Bankers and the War Party."

Probably where the term "War Chest" originated. JMHO

You know, it never ceases to amaze me of the lengths people will go to in their efforts to continually skirt the issue of naming the REAL perps, the REAL people who had the supreme and uncontested monumental control of the financial assets SO VERY NECESSARY in guaranteeing that they would never be held accountable, nor a bloody trail EVER be allowed traceable back to their financial establishments and houses of the holy. It literally boggles the mind [at least, my mind], at how even after all we've discovered regarding Operation Mockingbird, which is something I've been screaming about for years, and to which I'll be eternally grateful to Simkin for putting a label on, that this unholy alliance of corporatchiks, military aparatchiks, pseudo- Federale Banking aparatchiks, are allowed to continually conglomerate their assets unquestioned, unsuspected, unaccountable, uncontested, and at most times appear to be revered and absolved of any egregious wrong-doing or subsequent agrievances they're allowed to inflict on the general populace, albeit unnoticed by the dumbed-down citizenry they've manipulated and hypnotized into a state of mass lethargy and ineptitude [it's Super [stupid] Bowl season, again].

Ah, but let me caution you on the better side of prudence Stan, lest you risk being labelled as merely another hysterical, hallucinating, malcontented miscreant, reprobate of a CT'er, such as myself. I, adamantly refuse to be pidgeon-holed or stifled into a politically correct, euphemism- spouting, semantically adept [verbal trickery], double-talking syncophant, just because the sheeple and the ostriches find my "point-blank" analyses and attack of this case to be somehow distasteful, or harsh to their finer sensibilities. Henceforth, by validating my views, you make alot of enemies, my friend. As for me, I don't give a rat's ass, nor do I have that much to lose. But for you, any risk or loss of credibility may not be conducive to someone who may be the sole support or breadwinner of his family. Therefore, proceed at your own risk. And, thank you for your kind words.

Ter

Here's an interesting premise for a movie which will never be made.

A family man - begins to research the origin of the Federal Reserve. He then discovers that there is no real legitimate basis for this institution. He continues to dig, and finds that on the basis of the Grace report, his tax dollars do not fund anything - let alone the concept of paying for the salaries of Federal employees and programs - that the debt owed to the Reserve is so astronomically high that the tax dollars of the entire US do not even cover a fraction of it each year. He continues digging and discovers that there is no legal basis for the IRS - no legal basis for the Federal Income tax - mixing in elements of Bartleby the Scrivener, The Chocolate War, Walden Pond and some civil disobedience type stuff, he decides not to pay any Federal Income Tax that year. He is of course, arrested and eventually imprisoned. Throw in some touching visitation scenes with his wife and kids. Somehow a fresh Attorney gets stuck with his case on a pro bono - the court case receives some noteriety by the press. The attorney begins to make the case. Former IRS agents are introduced to provide testimony of how they quit their former jobs due to their own failure to justify their positions, since there is no legal foundation for the tax. The account of how the Federal Reserve was created, and how it works, is elborated upon during the course of the trial. The attorney at some point begins to receive threats. The new firm he is with is putting a lot of pressure on him, and is looking to possibly pull him off the mound. Maybe he even counter sues for the return of all of this man's back taxes. It ends up with a deal being cut, and some idiotic event takes place somewhere in the world that draws all of the media focus, and the case is forgotten. I guess it ends with the man's house being torn down and neighbors wondering where and when they had decided to move - since no one can recall having seen them for awhile.

**********************************************************

Excerpted from Prouty.org "Letter Of The Day" section, dated December 1997:

NSAM 11110 aka Executive Order 11110:

On June 4, 1963, a little known attempt was made to strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the government at interest. On that day President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve. Mr. Kennedy's order gave the Treasury the power "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation. In all, Kennedy brought nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes into circulation. The ramifications of this bill are enormous.

With the stroke of a pen, Mr. Kennedy was on his way to putting the Federal Reserve Bank of New York out of business. If enough of these silver certificates were to come into circulation they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve notes. This is because the silver certificates are backed by silver and the Federal Reserve notes are not backed by anything. Executive Order 11110 could have prevented the national debt from reaching its current level, because it would have given the government the ability to repay its debt without going to the Federal Reserve and being charged interest in order to create the new money. Executive Order 11110 gave the U.S. the ability to create its own money backed by silver.

After Mr. Kennedy was assassinated just five months later, no more silver certificates were issued. The Final Call has learned that the Executive Order was never repealed by any U.S. President through an Executive Order and is still valid. Why then has no president utilized it? Virtually all of the nearly $6 trillion in debt has been created since 1963, and if a U.S. president had utilized Executive Order 11110 the debt would be nowhere near the current level. Perhaps the assassination of JFK was a warning to future presidents who would think to eliminate the U.S. debt by eliminating the Federal Reserve's control over the creation of money. Mr. Kennedy challenged the government of money by challenging the two most successful vehicles that have ever been used to drive up debt - War and the creation of money by a privately-owned central bank. His efforts to have all troops out of Vietnam by 1965 and Executive Order 11110 would have severely cut into the profits and control of the New York banking establishment. As America's debt reaches unbearable levels and a conflict emerges in Bosnia that will further increase America's debt, one is force to ask, will President Clinton have the courage to consider utilizing Executive Order 11110 and, if so, is he willing to pay the ultimate price for doing so?

***[Clinton did pay the ultimate price by way of having his character assassinated by Ken Starr via Monica-gate and Whitewater-gate, for his attempt to dismantle The Federal Reserve. My emphasis. TM]***

___________________________________________

Executive Order 11110 AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 10289

AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS AFFECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

"By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 301 of title 3 of the United States Code, it is ordered as follows:

Section 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 19, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended-

By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph [j]:

[j] The authority vested in the President by paragraph of section 43 of the Act of May 12,1933, as amended [31 U.S.C.821], to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denomination of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption

and --

By revoking subparagraphs and [c] of paragraph 2 thereof.

Sec. 2. The amendments made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue and may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.

John F. Kennedy The White House, June 4, 1963."

_____________________________________________

Of course, the fact that both JFK and Lincoln met the the same end is a mere coincidence.

Abraham Lincoln's Monetary Policy, 1865 (Page 91 of Senate document 23.)

"Money is the creature of law and the creation of the original issue of money should be maintained as the exclusive monopoly of national Government.

Money possesses no value to the State other than that given to it by circulation.

Capital has its proper place and is entitled to every protection. The wages of men should be recognised in the structure of and in the social order as more important than the wages of money.

No duty is more imperative for the Government than the duty it owes the People to furnish them with a sound and uniform currency, and of regulating the circulation of the medium of exchange so that labour will be protected from a vicious currency, and commerce will be facilitated by cheap and safe exchanges.

The available supply of Gold and Silver being wholly inadequate to permit the issuance of coins of intrinsic value or paper currency convertible into coin in the volume required to serve the needs of the People, some other basis for the issue of currency must be developed, and some means other than that of convertibility into coin must be developed to prevent undue fluctuation in the value of paper currency or any other substitute for money of intrinsic value that may come into use.

The monetary needs of increasing numbers of People advancing towards higher standards of living can and should be met by the Government. Such needs can be served by the issue of National Currency and Credit through the operation of a National Banking system .The circulation of a medium of exchange issued and backed by the Government can be properly regulated and redundancy of issue avoided by withdrawing from circulation such amounts as may be necessary by Taxation, Redeposit, and otherwise. Government has the power to regulate the currency and credit of the Nation.

Government should stand behind its currency and credit and the Bank deposits of the Nation. No individual should suffer a loss of money through depreciation or inflated currency or Bank bankruptcy.

Government possessing the power to create and issue currency and creditas money and enjoying the right to withdraw both currency and credit from circulation by Taxation and otherwise need not and should not borrow capital at interest as a means of financing Governmental work and public enterprise. The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of the consumers. The privilege of creating and issueing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Governments greatest creative opportunity.

By the adoption of these principles the long felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest, discounts, and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprise, the maintenance of stable Government and ordered progress, and the conduct of the Treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own Government. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to the money power."

_____________________________________________

Some information on the Federal Reserve: The Federal Reserve, a Private Corporation.

One of the most common concerns among people who engage in any effort to reduce their taxes is, "Will keeping my money hurt the government's ability to pay it's bills?"

As explained in the first article in this series, the modern withholding tax does not, and wasn't designed to, pay for government services. What it does do, is pay for the privately-owned Federal Reserve System.

Black's Law Dictionary defines the "Federal Reserve System" as, "Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves."

Privately-owned banks own the stock of the Fed. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said:

"Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors.

Similarly, the Federal Reserve Banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks. Taking another look at Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money:

Federal Reserve Act. Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.)."

The FED banks, which are privately owned, actually issue, that is, create, the money we use. In 1964 the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is:

"The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine.It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them."

As we all know, anyone who has a lot of money has a lot of power. Now imagine a group of people who have the power to create money. Imagine the power these people would have. This is what the Fed is.

No man did more to expose the power of the Fed than Louis T. McFadden, who was the Chairman of the House Banking Committee back in the 1930s. Constantly pointing out that monetary issues shouldn't be partisan, he criticized both the Herbert Hoover and Franklin Roosevelt administrations. In describing the Fed, he remarked in the Congressional Record, House pages 1295 and 1296 on June 10, 1932, that:

"Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government Board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and the iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States; has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our Government. It has done this through the maladministration of that law by which the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the monied vultures who control it.

Some people think the Federal reserve banks are United States Government institutions. They are not Government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders. In that dark crew of financial pirates there are those who would cut a man's throat to get a dollar out of his pocket; there are those who send money into States to buy votes to control our legislation; and there are those who maintain an international propaganda for the purpose of deceiving us and of wheedling us into the granting of new concessions which will permit them to cover up their past misdeeds and set again in motion their gigantic train of crime. Those 12 private credit monopolies were deceitfully and disloyally foisted upon this country by bankers who came here from Europe and who repaid us for our hospitality by undermining our American institutions."

The Fed basically works like this: The government granted its power to create money to the Fed banks. They create money, then loan it back to the government charging interest. The government levies income taxes to pay the interest on the debt. On this point, it's interesting to note that the Federal Reserve act and the sixteenth amendment, which gave congress the power to collect income taxes, were both passed in 1913. The incredible power of the Fed over the economy is universally admitted. Some people, especially in the banking and academic communities, even support it. On the other hand, there are those, both in the past and in the present, that speak out against it. One of these men was President John F. Kennedy. His efforts were detailed in Jim Marrs' 1990 book, Crossfire:

"Another overlooked aspect of Kennedy's attempt to reform American society involves money. Kennedy apparently reasoned that by returning to the constitution, which states that only Congress shall coin and regulate money, the soaring national debt could be reduced by not paying interest to the bankers of the Federal Reserve System, who print paper money then loan it to the government at interest. He moved in this area on June 4, 1963, by signing Executive Order 11,110 which called for the issuance of $4,292,893,815 in United States Notes through the U.S. Treasury rather than the traditional Federal Reserve System. That same day, Kennedy signed a bill changing the backing of one and two dollar bills from silver to gold, adding strength to the weakened U.S. currency.

Kennedy's comptroller of the currency, James J. Saxon, had been at odds with the powerful Federal Reserve Board for some time, encouraging broader investment and lending powers for banks that were not part of the Federal Reserve system. Saxon also had decided that non-Reserve banks could underwrite state and local general obligation bonds, again weakening the dominant Federal Reserve banks.

A number of "Kennedy bills" were indeed issued - the author has a five dollar bill in his possession with the heading "United States Note" - but were quickly withdrawn after Kennedy's death. According to information from the Library of the Comptroller of the Currency, Executive Order 11,110 remains in effect today, although successive administrations beginning with that of President Lyndon Johnson apparently have simply ignored it and instead returned to the practice of paying interest on Federal Reserve notes. Today we continue to use Federal Reserve Notes, and the deficit is at an all-time high."

The point being made is that the IRS taxes you pay aren't used for government services. It won't hurt you, or the nation, to legally reduce or eliminate your tax liability.

John, have you invited John (McAdams) to participate here? And Dave Perry?

I'd love to see them here!

Yes I have. I have also invited Gerald Posner, Hugh Aynesworth, Dave Reitzes and Kenneth A. Rahn. So far none of the lone-gunman theorists have accepted the offer.

So far none of these lone-gunman theorists have accepted the offer.

Just because I post here, do not confuse me with any of the multiple assassin and/or body kidnapping followers.

P.S. Mr. McAdams was long ago asked to "Debunk" the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts of the back wound entry and CE399.

To date; No "debunking"!

**********************************************

"Just because I post here, do not confuse me with any of the multiple assassin and/or body kidnapping followers."

HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! Purv, you slay me! That's what I love about you.

And, then, you come up with this little post script for good measure:

"P.S. Mr. McAdams was long ago asked to "Debunk" the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical facts of the back wound entry and CE399.

To date; No "debunking"!"

You mean he didn't even give it the old college try? Not even from an inductive/deductive analysis perspective? That's a pretty half-assed way of going about answering a challenge, wouldn't you say?

Oh well...

................Hunt, Morales and Robertson had huge emotional investments in the anti-Castro cause. Barnes hated Kennedy for blaming Dulles and Bissell for the Bay of Pigs. Barnes sent guns to anti-Trujillo forces in a diplomatic pouch and gave orders to the embassy not to tell the state department. Robertson, without receiving any orders to do so, bombed a British ship during the Guatemalan operation. These men were cowboys..............

__________________________

"Rip" Robertson was never a pilot, nor did he "sink a ship in Guatemala" (1954 Guatemaltazo)!!

Jerry Fred DeLarm was initially blamed for the sinking of the Brit "Coffee" merchantman, but in reality it was "Freddy" Shoup who dive-bombed the vessel and sent it to the bottom of the harbor-port at San Jose. Worse, this port is on the Pacific Ocean side of Guatemala, NOT the Caribbean side -- where a ship from Europe would be offloading, i.e., at either Puerto Barrios or Matias de Gálvez !!

As you will see below, when the "Soccer War" (El Salvador vs: Honduras) got underway during 1969, all of the "good ol' boys were back in action once again.

Chairs,

GPH

---------------------------------------------

http://www.statecraft.org/chapter5.html

On 18 June, Castillo Armas crossed into Guatemala from Honduras at the head of a force probably numbering less than 300 men. Although well-armed with Bren guns, mortars, and even flamethrowers, the unopposed "Liberation Army" halted just inside Guatemala in the town of Esquipulas, known then for its shrine to the Black Christ (and later also as a place of pilgrimage to honor the "Liberation").13

The Liberacionistas waited in Esquipulas while the real "war" was waged by American pilots and assorted mercenaries in aircraft. Those in charge included Whiting Willauer, a World War II veteran of irregular air warfare who had served as General Claire Chennault's deputy in the Flying Tigers. 14 At dawn on 18 June, a group of B-26 bombers and three P-47 fighters appeared above Guatemala City, dropped leaflets, and then began strafing and bombing runs.

Targets were selected largely for their psychological effect: military drill areas, ammunition dumps, oil storage tanks. One of the pilots, American Jerry DeLarm, later told NBC's John Chancellor how he "blew up the government oil reserves and subsequently when the political situation was up in the air and required decisive action-the main powder magazine of the army."15

Although unable to induce the Guatemalan army to fight, apart from some desultory antiaircraft fire, Arbenz held on to his precarious office for nine days. Castillo Armas and his "army" stayed put in Esquipulas unmolested, while U.S. air power continued a steady diet of harassing raids on the capital and the port of San José (sinking the British freighter Springfjord in the process).

Despite the lack of opposition in the air, the small "Liberation" air wing suffered from attrition in the first days of the operation, with several aircraft crash-landing (some sources refer to two having been shot down, although no casualties were ever acknowledged). CIA requests for replacements required a presidential decision, although U.S. Air Force planes were standing by in Nicaragua, apparently for just such a contingency. Rapidly "reflagged," the aircraft were soon in the air over Guatemala City keeping up the pressure.

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http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_162.shtml

The rebel „air force“ came into existence during March 1954, when two C-47s were provided „on loan“ from Civilian Air Transport (CAT) – a CIA-owned airline – and another one purchased in Washington DC. All three Dakotas were flown to Managua, in Nicaragua, from where they were used for flying supply missions for the „Liberation Army“, as the CIA-controlled rebel force became known.

As next, a number of surplus combat and transport aircraft was acquired through a front company set up as „charitable foundation“ in Miami, including one Lockheed P-38 Lightning, a Cessna 140 and 180 each, and a Consolidated PBY-5A flying boat. The aircraft were flown to a small airfield in Honduras, and the CIA then began searching for pilots, eventually recruiting Fred Sherwood, former US Air Attaché with the US Embassy in Guatemala and ex-UFC pilot, as the chief of the new force. Sherwood was soon joined by two other pilots, Fred DeLarm and Carlos Cheeseman, both veteran Republic P-47 Thunderbolt-pilots from the Pacific theatre in WWII.

..........................................................

Meanwhile, Guatemala was put under a sea blockade by the US Navy warships. Already in May, the USN was searching for SS Alfhem, a ship loaded with Czech weapons for the Guatemalan Army that reached Puerto Barrios nevertheless. Subsequently, the blockade was improved and the Government found it impossible to import any kind of weapons or ammunition: even if the Army managed to round up many of subversive elements, the net around President Arbenz was becoming tighter.

..........................................................

The situation worsened through the 28th: in one instance a single strafing attack by a FAG AT-6 scrambled from Puerto Barrios to intercept a rebel Cessna 180, was sufficient to scatter a whole rebel column. Nevertheless, the Liberation Air Force then staged its best-known operation of this war, when the battered – but repaired once again – P-38M, flown by Ferdinand Schoup, attacked the British ship SS Springfjord that carried a load of weapons (including rumoured ex-Czech Spitfires), in the port of San Jose. Springfjord was sunk, but the ship carried a load of coffee and no weapons at all.

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http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_156.shtml

El Salvador vs Honduras, 1969: The 100-Hour War

By Tom Cooper with March Coelich

........ By the morning of 17 July 1969, the Salvadoran and Honduran Army troops became entangled in a meeting engagement between Nueva Ocotopeque and Santa Rosa de Copan. The Salvadorans advanced in good spirits, but Honduran Guardia de Honor Battalion – readily supported by Corsairs from Toncontin and La Mesa – put up spirited resistance.

........ Varela’s loss hit the FAS particularly hard. The air force was already short on experienced pilots. Even if a number of experienced reserve fliers was mobilized, there was not enough pilots for all Mustangs and Corsairs, and consequently El Salvador had to hire five mercenaries – including Jerry DeLarm and “Red” Gray. The later were to prove not especially eager to engage Honduran Corsairs in air combat: in fact, according to surviving FAS veterans, both DeLarm and Gray preferred to climb and escape when encountering FAH fighters – often enough leaving behind Salvadoran pilots they should have protected.

_____________________________________

Welcome back, Gerry!.....thanks for the above input. While you were gone there was some buzz about some CIA dudes who might have been at the Ambassador hotel the night RFK died. Could you comment on the photos of them in the Hotel and what you recall you were doing that night as an LAPD man. Thanks much in advance. Peter

--------------------------

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;#entry85319

Welcome back, Gerry!.....thanks for the above input. While you were gone there was some buzz about some CIA dudes who might have been at the Ambassador hotel the night RFK died. Could you comment on the photos of them in the Hotel and what you recall you were doing that night as an LAPD man. Thanks much in advance. Peter

-------------------------------------------

Peter:

So as to save you from drudging thru all of my previous postings, slithering thru the Google crap, and worse yet -- the linear miles of Khazar Weberman's fantasy prolix ["Noduroids"]; I will attempt a clear, short and concise response ?? Yupp !!

From 1968 thru 1970, I worked part-time as a Special Agent for the "Special Problems Unit", City of Los Angeles. The "Unit" was the creation of the then Mayor Sam Yorty, and "belonged to" his Staff Intelligence Squad, which worked out of City Hall -- rather than at the L.A.P.D. Parker Center Police Headquarters -- and reported only to him, not to Chief Tom Reddin nor his successor Gates.

Officially, we worked for the Recreation & Parks Dept. and were paid out of their funds. We always went on patrol in a supervisor Sergeant's stationwagon, rather than in the 4-door "Adam" black & whites (2-man patrol "Basic" cars). The TV series "Adam 12" taught viewers that "One-Adam-12" signified that:

"(1) One" as a prefix meant "Central Division", and this was the #12 vehicle on that shift.

I always worked out of Hollenbeck Division (East Los Angeles), and prefix assigned was "4-Adam, 1 thru 12" for the sedans, while the Sergeant's wagons were 4-L-10, 4-L-20, 4-L-30. [The wagons carried a "mini-command post" in the rear compartment, with maps, riot equipment, and had four seperate VHF radios.]

The now famous author Joe Wambaugh was just finishing his first novel ("The New Centurions") whilst he worked as a Robbery/Homicide Detective on the 2nd floor of the station-house during those days.

Late afternoon, June 5th 1968, I was working with "Metro" and "Gang Squad" a few blocks from the Lincoln Heights Jail -- which required cooperation with Ramparts Division next door. We expected yet another "Chicano" gang shootout that night, having been tipped off by youngsters at a city recreation center the night before; either because they wanted no part of it -- or didn't want to lose a family member of friend, which was frequently the end result.

Just after sundown, the radio beeped and the dispatcher advised my Sergeant to "...have the S.P.U. Special Agent call the Station from the nearest "Gamewell".....and not by payphone...!!

[Gamewell, Inc. is the manufacturer of the steel police telephone boxes sited on every 4th square-block throughout the city.]

I opened the box with my Gamewell Key, called the station -- and the Captain told me to have the Sgt. drive me in the "L" wagon to a popular ("Police") Diner, and "meet" with a Sergeant in an "Adam Unit".

I thought it was about an "IAD" (Internal Affairs) "beef" that I was previously involved in as a witness. Climbed into the 4-door sedan, and the Sergeant radioed in as "4-Xray-1", and advising that we were going "Code-7" [Off Duty]. ("Xray" signified an "Extra/Unassigned Roving or backup Unit")

Next thing I know we are cruising up the Hollywood Freeway northwest-bound. Once back down on the streets, I asked the Sergeant where we were going, and especially WHY we were in Hollywood Division ?? He answered that we had "a meet" at the Ambassador Hotel (which I had never heard of before !!). I later learned that we were about two blocks from the hotel when we ran into a bit of a traffic jam, and spotted numerous "blue-cross" traffic directing cops and "motors" (Motorcycle Units).

Just then the radio dispatcher/girl ordered ".....all units switch to Tac-2 !!" [Tac-2 is the "Tactical Radio Channel used for private or emergency conversations]. On "Tac-2" we heard: "ALL UNITS...ALL UNITS...and Hollywood...Ramparts...and Valley supervisors....shots fired...shots fired...multiple victims down....use caution...plain-clothes officers in the area...!! "All Units...shots fired inside Ambassador Hotel...approach with caution....I say again....approach with caution....both uniformed and plain-clothes officers in the area....unknown the number of shooters.... !!"

The Sergeant slammed on the brakes, went "Code-3" [turned on the lights and siren] -- did a 180, and we sped back towards the Freeway. As I stared at him, he turned slightly and yelled: "...This ain't our call...we are outahere...!!" As we raced back towards East L.A., we observed dozens of police vehicles "Code-3" and barreling in the opposite direction -- both on the Freeway and the city streets.

Within a block from Hollenbeck Station, the Sergeant said that he was dropping me here, that I could walk to my car -- and that he was going to Parker Center (Downtown LAPD/HQ). Climbed into my sedan, headed for home, turned on the CB Radio to the R.E.A.C.T. Channel #9 to listen in for any word on what the hell was going on in Hollywood. The only advisories from the R.E.A.C.T. Monitor was to warn everybody to stay away from the Ambassador Hotel in Hollywood.

Half an hour later, I walked into my apartment to find my wife standing in front of the TV with her mouth agape and white as a sheet. Two minutes later I asked her to calm down, go to the kitchen, pour me a super-size Whiskey Sour while I changed clothes. Tip-toed upstairs and unracked my riot/shotgun and a bandoleer of "00" Buck ammunition, got all of my 6-round speedloaders (.357 Magnum revolver), my .45 Colt automatic with extra magazines -- put everything in a parachute kit-bag and went back downstairs, where I sat with my back to the wall.

A brother called and said he was coming over armed, and would park his car down the street, call from a payphone to alert me to his imminent arrival -- and would check out the neighborhood first.

Around sunup I called my MK/CHAOS duty officer, and was advised to immediately check out the Sirhan residence, which I did.

Shane is in error, none of the photos that I have seen so far match any "Company" dudes that I came across over the years, but then again -- I haven't seen his film yet.

Later, its been a long day for me (since 5 PM yesterday)

GPH

_____________________________________

**************************************************

"...none of the photos that I have seen so far match any "Company" dudes that I came across over the years, but then again -- I haven't seen his film yet."

Thanks for showing up. We thought you'd kicked the bucket or something.

If the CIA was involved at all, in any way, in the Kennedy murder, it was not taking orders from, or acting in the exclusive interests of, or beholden to, or doing the bidding of, or reduced to a parity with, or in any way junior to:

• Texas oil men

• Texas politicians

• The Vice President of the United States

• Pro-Castro forces

• Anti-Castro forces

• Cubans

• Castro

• The Mafia, or any part thereof

So was the CIA involved or not?

Ashton Gray

************************************************

The CIA is the armed forces, police officers, goon-squad, and/or private security services of the Old Guard, the Eastern Establishment, the Aristocratic Blue-Bloods, the financial houses and/or holding companies, aka banks, of the Anglo-American power bases located on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean and which comprise those districts subject to the prevailing markets of New York City and London, and dictate who's to win and who's to lose, who's to live and who's to die. It's been carved in stone that way since the first money-lenders hit these shores in the 1500's, and started buying up the place with beads.

Well dear, let be the first to welcome you to the forum. Now it's public that some of your political leanings are- ohmygod- Republican! Imagine that, married to me, the radical left -winger. Needless to say we have some interesting political disagreements, err, I mean discussions.

I hope you find here the wonderful community that I have enjoyed for now more than two years, and I know that your knowledge of this case, and other political conspiracies, will be greatly advanced. Thanks for joining. Now you don't even have to get me a Christmas present.

Dawn

**************************************************

Dawnie, he's such a fox, and I'm such a shameless bitch. But, you love me anyway, don't you.

Your adopted sister, and fellow collaborator who sticks by you through thick and thin.

Terry the Terror

I'm so glad you made it to the forum, Erick. Now you'll be able see why me and Dawnie were always jockying for positioning in front of her computer while I was visiting with you guys. LOL

All kidding aside though, I had such fun down there. I couldn't have asked for a better vacation, and felt like I had known you guys for my whole life! I miss you two, so much, and Tika, too.

Love,

Ter

You can watch all three parts of this documentary (The Final Chapter 2003) on Youtube, in 9 minute segments. I was fortunate enough to have a relative order me a DVD copy as a Christmas present the night it first aired on A&E. I understand that it is extremely difficult to obtain, as a ban was placed on it several days after it's debut. It's filled with really great information. I highly recommend it -

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNTeQ9ckmD8

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 2 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAW-bxxZfcM

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmMXfBgjsh0

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO5PAmCsw0I

episode 1 - The Smoking Gun, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMJMqbWJLQI

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ry3DrsN9PY

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 2 --http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRLDm7YT25w

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBbe0jexWn4

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNyprupDTU

episode 2 - The Love Affair, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyJ1APE6Lc

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 1 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaWUcyjAeIk

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 2 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05AsvqWfzts

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 3 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJPWhn6P5fE

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 4 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut-4QXzNBno

episode 3 - The Guilty Men, segment 5 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mzZGK9tNyM

I just read Harrison Edward Livingstone's most recent book on the assassination - The Radical Right And The Murder Of John F. Kennedy - and was surprised to find that he believes Baker's story of her affair with Oswald. I thought he would consider her another nut job or opportunist out to make a buck with a conjured story. I believe that the bulk of her story is true. She sounds like she's telling the truth - at least to me anyway.

Peter, the only time i saw TMWKK was on the 40th anniverary in 2003 on the History Channel. I believed it aired every night of week [m-f] for two hours. I dont know if all of the installments were included or not. I havent seen it since. [if it was on again i missed it] I know the Johnson family raised all kinds of problems for them, along with others, and i belive it was banned, as stated earlier. Everything else since then has been basically "pro-Oswald" Dale Myers bunk on the History Channel. [They] must have really put some pressure on them after they showed it in 03', for them to all of a sudden start showing "pro Oswald" junk.

thanks-smitty

The History Channel (owned by Disney Corp) stopped showing (censored) the above-referenced episodes, and selling the DVD's due to pressure from the Johnson family and Johnson family friend Jack Valenti. Fortunately Utube picked it up and there are a lot of bootleg copies floating around. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen any of the Men Who Killed Kennedy segments on the History Channel or A&E in recent years. I found Ed Hoffman's eyewitness account in one of the Men Who Killed Kennedy episodes quite compelling. I met Mr. Hoffman in Dallas in 1998, and saw his rendition of his memory in person (he was deaf and used a sign language interpreter). He said he went to the Grassy Knoll every year to recount his eyewitness to history. He has since passed away. In my business I am used to people lying to me and I can usually tell when someone is lying. Mr. Hoffman was extremely credible to me. Mr. Hoffman's description of the rifleman firing from behind the picket fence jibes with the backward snap of the President's head and the brain matter retreived by Jackie from the limousine trunk.

********************************************************

"In my business I am used to people lying to me and I can usually tell when someone is lying. Mr. Hoffman was extremely credible to me. Mr. Hoffman's description of the rifleman firing from behind the picket fence jibes with the backward snap of the President's head and the brain matter retreived by Jackie from the limousine trunk."

Yay, Erick!!! My next "best friend" by marriage to my girlfriend, Dawnie!

A hail and hearty WELCOME to another member of our invaluable Austin contingency, and a damned good judge of character in his own right, as well. Great to have you aboard, my friend.

Ter

*****************************************************

MY WHOLE POST JUST DISAPPEARED ON MY CRITICISMS [AND WHY] OF WIKIPEDIA, SNOPES, AND URBAN LEGENDS.

This new format is totally f******. I've just wasted my goddamned time for NOTHING!

Now, I've got to get back to the REAL WORLD, and get my sorry ass to job before I'm late.

Thanks alot.

It's infuriating when that happens Terry.

Sometimes when I try to post something long I'll use my mouse to copy the text into the buffer until I make sure it posted. Also, I think the back button will recall the text if you do it right away, after the fact. Dunno if this is helpful.

I would really like to get your viewpoint on the snopes and urban legend sites though. I've started to wonder if they're propaganda. I don't have specific reason to wonder (I'm not slandering them), I just wonder on general principle.

********************************************************

"I would really like to get your viewpoint on the snopes and urban legend sites though. I've started to wonder if they're propaganda. I don't have specific reason to wonder (I'm not slandering them), I just wonder on general principle."

Thank you, Myra.

As I was attempting to relate this morning. About a month ago, a friend of mine warned me that Wikipedia really ain't what one would think it should be, due to the fact that it relies on getting its

"facts" from a wide swath of the public, some of whom may not be qualified enough to be making statements or creating answers, let alone thoroughly researching the topic for the most relevant information for disseminating into the public knowledge base.

And, Snopes chooses to discredit Prouty by claiming that the SONY acronym does NOT stand for Standard Oil New York, even after Prouty described whom he was working for after WWII, while delivering raw materials to Japan in boxes marked SOCONY or Standard Oil Company of New York. This was a collaborative effort between Mr. Morita, who couldn't stand the "Made in Japan" label, and equated it with something close to being thought of as, "cheap," and Rockefeller taking advantage of this new form of out-sourcing.

Well, that's only one reason at the moment. But, seeing as I'm nodding out at my computer, I'm going to choose to finish answering this in the morning. I'm going to beg off for the rest of the evening. See you in the morning.

*******************************************************

"But they are infuriating, esp if you're trying to get something changed. For example their page on Hugo Chavez is just a big ol' smear. Outrageous right wing crap. I spent some time jumping thru their hoops and making proposed changes and bickering with the editor of that page. Then the last time I went there to see if there were replies I couldn't find anything I'd written. (Though I don't rule out the possibility that I'm just a dumbass and didn't look well enough.)"

Yes, case in point: When my own cousin chooses to send me that obvious piece trashing Chavez, which inadvertently causes me to light into her like a bat out of hell, for being such a goddamned lemming for believing that she can foster that crap on me, and think she can get away without so much as a nod of agreement, really grates my ass. I end up berating her and her dumbass right- wing, knee-jerking friends for being the idiots and morons they actually appear to be for eagerly accepting this tripe at face value. Even if it means divorcing myself from my apparently less than stellar immediate bloodlines, so be it!

"So honey, who needs the static, it hurts the head.

You wind up cracking and the day goes dismal.

It's dirty for dirty down the line..."

Words and music by Joni Mitchell

The fact that Daniel Brandt is being maligned by someone with less than honorable, as well as dubious intentions, a one Linda E. Mack, leaves me with serious concerns as to what lengths these gov./intelligence [CIA/MI6/FBI/MI5] groups will resort to, in their own subversive/covert attempts to infiltrate public forums and databases with the prime objective to confuse, confound, and brain- wash the unsuspecting and uninitiated into accepting their erroneous historical perspective.

Here is the statement I was referring to from Prouty's. I see no reason why Snopes should attempt to discredit this information, no other reason that is, except to spread dis- or mis- information, especially 5 years after the fact.

From Prouty.org:

"The founder of SONY Corporation, Akio Morita, a man I highly respect, commented that following the defeat of Japan he made several trips to America...

Upon return home he noted that "Cheap" things were labeled "Made in Japan" in stores in America.

"He went home determined to change that image. Hence, the SONY Corp, which has since evolved from its humble beginnings as a manufacturer of stereos and T.V. to be recognized a leader in that industry."

(That's not quite an accurate copy of Burnham's words; but I'll stop here for another purpose.)

It just happens that I was ordered to Tokyo during the early days of the Korean War period, and was assigned the job of "Military Manager of Tokyo International Airport" during the period of the U.S. military occupation of Japan. At that time it was the third busiest airport in the world, not only because of the Korean War activity; but because of just such business activity as Burnham describes on the part of Mr. Morita. Many other Japanese entrepreneurs were doing their best to revive from the losses and damage of WWII; but even more important was an another enormous business phenomenon.

I began to notice that day after day the few Japanese transport aircraft available, and countless large commercial aircraft from USA Charter Companies began to jam the parking ramp on Tokyo Airport. They were loaded with items from the States.

US money and manufactured material was flooding the place. That is not a Japanese word, nor is it a Japanese acronym. Have you ever really thought why Mr. Morita, a fine Japanese businessman, would name his company SONY?

The name SONY began to appear at the airport after the flood of post-war recovery money, and one of the meanings of those four letters is "STANDARD OIL OF NEW YORK". That has always been SONY or SOCONY. (The Standard Oil Company of New York)

THE ROCKEFELLERS had arrived to re-finance Japan. [Or, began the first form of what is now known as "out-sourcing," aka "cheap sweatshop labor." (my emphasis. TM)]

What this meant was that during those "MacArthur" days Rockefeller money was flooding Japan; and money such as that (Yes, I'm using the term MONEY) kind of "money" began the amazing job of rebuilding Japan.

We should all note that these phenomena took place in what we called the Korean War and the Vietnam War eras. These conflicts carefully orchestrated and planned during the Cairo and Teheran Conference days in Nov/Dec 1944 had been ably designed to pour hundreds of billions of dollars/money into those activities. The Vietnam cost ran well over $500 billion... and this was not Maria Theresa "Dollars".

e) Your good letter has caused me to go back through some of my dog-earred records to rediscover and to confirm much of what you have written. It is my belief today that this High cabal is going to increase around the world rather than to have itself modified.

Thank you for your good letter,

L. Fletcher Prouty

*****************************************************

MY WHOLE POST JUST DISAPPEARED ON MY CRITICISMS [AND WHY] OF WIKIPEDIA, SNOPES, AND URBAN LEGENDS.

This new format is totally f******. I've just wasted my goddamned time for NOTHING!

Now, I've got to get back to the REAL WORLD, and get my sorry ass to job before I'm late.

Thanks alot.

It's infuriating when that happens Terry.

Sometimes when I try to post something long I'll use my mouse to copy the text into the buffer until I make sure it posted. Also, I think the back button will recall the text if you do it right away, after the fact. Dunno if this is helpful.

I would really like to get your viewpoint on the snopes and urban legend sites though. I've started to wonder if they're propaganda. I don't have specific reason to wonder (I'm not slandering them), I just wonder on general principle.

********************************************************

"I would really like to get your viewpoint on the snopes and urban legend sites though. I've started to wonder if they're propaganda. I don't have specific reason to wonder (I'm not slandering them), I just wonder on general principle."

Thank you, Myra.

As I was attempting to relate this morning. About a month ago, a friend of mine warned me that Wikipedia really ain't what one would think it should be, due to the fact that it relies on getting its

"facts" from a wide swath of the public, some of whom may not be qualified enough to be making statements or creating answers, let alone thoroughly researching the topic for the most relevant information for disseminating into the public knowledge base.

And, Snopes chooses to discredit Prouty by claiming that the SONY acronym does NOT stand for Standard Oil New York, even after Prouty described whom he was working for after WWII, while delivering raw materials to Japan in boxes marked SOCONY or Standard Oil Company of New York. This was a collaborative effort between Mr. Morita, who couldn't stand the "Made in Japan" label, and equated it with something close to being thought of as, "cheap," and Rockefeller taking advantage of this new form of out-sourcing.

Well, that's only one reason at the moment. But, seeing as I'm nodding out at my computer, I'm going to choose to finish answering this in the morning. I'm going to beg off for the rest of the evening. See you in the morning.

I am trying to develop information on Linda E. Mack. She is now about 45 years old and appears to be living in Alberta, Canada and using the name Sarah McEwan. On Wikipedia she is SlimVirgin, one of their most powerful administrators. Her editing is very anti-conspiracy-theory, and she spends many hours a day on Wikipedia. She's very supportive of anything Chip Berlet tries to push on Wikipedia, for those of you who know who Chip Berlet is.

There may be more than one person behind her username. She was tracked once editing Wikipedia for a single 27-hour period without a break. Administrators on Wikipedia have "dia. However, he found it too time-consuming and decided to make it an “open source” project. This meant that people have had to fight to get their interpretations of the past displayed at Wikipedia.

My main victory was over Operation Mockingbird. Initially, Wikipedia claimed it was an urban myth. I edited the entry to explain it was a real CIA secret project to control the mass media. My entry was removed and it took several moths of arguing before they allowed my version of Operation Mockingbird to appear in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

*****************************************************

MY WHOLE POST JUST DISAPPEARED ON MY CRITICISMS [AND WHY] OF WIKIPEDIA, SNOPES, AND URBAN LEGENDS.

This new format is totally f******. I've just wasted my goddamned time for NOTHING!

Now, I've got to get back to the REAL WORLD, and get my sorry ass to job before I'm late.

Thanks alot.

Bill Kelly started an online petition for a JFK grand jury, I thought members might want to sign it to show their support.

There are currently 174 signatures.

Please sign it

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?jfkgjury

John

***************************************************

Hey, come on folks! We can do better than 174, can't we?

Dawnie, Dixie, Myra, where are your John Hancock's?

I'm number 13.

Terry

I signed it ages ago. But if I am not showing up I shall sign it again.

Dawn

*******************************************************

Hi Dawnie,

I remember signing up for this either at Prouty's or DellaRosa's at back in 2002 or 3, I thought. Plus, it seemed like there were more signatures on it then, as well.

Bill Kelly started an online petition for a JFK grand jury, I thought members might want to sign it to show their support.

There are currently 174 signatures.

Please sign it

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?jfkgjury

John

***************************************************

Hey, come on folks! We can do better than 174, can't we?

Dawnie, Dixie, Myra, where are your John Hancock's?

I'm number 13.

Exactly. I think it's particularly important that the more "known" members of the forum sign, ie, authors, journalists, etc.

BTW, got you beat Ter, I'm #5!

Also pretty important to carefully peruse the names. Fox Mulder, Lee Oswald, and a few others must go, and I see someone signed twice.

RJS

*************************************************

"BTW, got you beat Ter, I'm #5!"

I saw that, Quickdraw.

"Also pretty important to carefully peruse the names. Fox Mulder, Lee Oswald, and a few others must go, and I see someone signed twice."

Yeah, those cowardly wise-asses need to be eliminated before submitting this, without a doubt.

Now your name is Hawkeye for picking up on those, Rich.

Bill Kelly started an online petition for a JFK grand jury, I thought members might want to sign it to show their support.

There are currently 174 signatures.

Please sign it

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?jfkgjury

John

***************************************************

Hey, come on folks! We can do better than 174, can't we?

Dawnie, Dixie, Myra, where are your John Hancock's?

I'm number 13.

I have started a new blog in an effort to highlight the Impeachment proceedings started by Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney.

Although the bill would not pass in a Republican controled Congress, it could serve as a rallying point around which many could show their support for impeachment proceedings and to send a message to Nancy Pelosi that it is not in her political best interests to go against the tide and to vote in the best interests of citizens of the United States.

Here is the blog. I would appreciate input. I am trying to spread the blog as widely and as quickly as possible to ensure that these impeachment proceedings stay in the news and in the publics minds, this can best be done through an active internet campaign in concert with the efforts taking place tomorrow during international human rights day, during which many will hold impeachment marches in defiance of George Bush's administrations hideous recod on human rights.

http://help-cynthia-impeach.blogspot.com/

Any help in making the blog know would be very helpful, so please take a look at it and send out emails encouraging people to view it and take part in the campaign. It only takes a few minutes so please help me to help Cynthia McKinney.

On the blog you can view Cynthia McKinney lambasting Donald Rumsfeld on 9/11, missing money from the pentagon and human trafficking by Dyncorp and also excerpts from the brilliant film 'American Blackout', which details voter disenfranchisement in 2000/2004 and the Republican attempts to unseat McKinney in 2002.

All the best and any help would be most welcome.

John Geraghty

**************************************************

Here's mine, John.

Ask the NY Times and the Washington Post why they aren't covering the biggest story of the weekend?

I think that a big question needs to be asked of the NY Times and the Washington Post...Why aren't you covering this story? The answers are actually quite obvious, but nonetheless we should send letters to the editor of both papers encouraging them to give the story coverage and not to sweep it under the carpet.

Even a few lines will help.

letters@washpost.com

letters@nytimes.com

Please give up a few minutes of your time.

Posted by John Geraghty at 4:20 AM

1 comments:

Terry Mauro said...

Not only should G.W. Bush be impeached before he's allowed to further dismantle the U.S. Constitution, he should also be hung for the crimes against humanity he's allowed to take place during his regime and during his watch. This includes from what he allowed to transpire during the last election, forward from 9/11, through the debacle in Iraq, to his total lack of concern and disregard for the families of the soldiers he's been so eager to send off to their imminent death and slaughter, as well as the wholesale genocide of the Iraqui citizens themselves, all in the name of eminent domaining the Middle East of its property for exploitation of its natural resources.

10 December, 2006 13:45

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How long, prior to 11-22, do you believe the conspirators had to plan the assassination?

In other words, from making the decision, gathering the team, selecting the locations, deciding who would be in various positions, securing firearms, etc.

Did they have one week to decide? A month?

Do you believe they took as long as six months to plan the assassination in Dealey Plaza?

MARK, JFK WAS DOOMED FROM THE MOMENT THAT LBJ ACCEPTED THE VICE PRESIDENT POSITION ON THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, A DECISION THAT WAS MADE AT THE LA HOTEL DURING THE 1960 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION. THAT'S WHERE PHIL GRAHAM OF THE WASINGTON POST AND JOHN CONNALLY CONVINCED LBJ TO TAKE THE SECOND SPOT, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT 20% OR 1 OUT OF 5 US PRESIDENTS DIED IN OFFICE. LBJ REPLIED THAT THOSE ODDS COULD BE IMPROVED.

BK

This thing was so well thought out and carried out. It was not something that was put together in a few months, or even a year. I agree totally with Mr. Kelly on this point.

And I totally agree with the total agreement. I don't think there's any way LBJ would have given up his post as senate majority leader for a warm pitcher of spit unless he knew he'd be climbing over the real President's body. I'm not convinced that Madeline Brown really heard all she said she heard, but I do believe that the essence of her account is accurate. There's no way that two men as evil as Johnson and HL Hunt would sit back and hope...

I'm even leaning towards thinking that the Bay of Pigs was a trap for President Kennedy. I envision a motive of making the new president look like an incompetent, and more important getting the right wing cuban exiles to dispise him. By priming the exiles in this way, they could then be used by Johnson and Hunt and the CIA/mob--who had their own motives, protecting war profits among them--to do the dirty work.

The assassination became urgent for LBJ in Nov of '63 because of the Bobby Baker case.

But JFK became president when an array of snakes were poised to strike. He might have been spared if he'd turned out to be a like minded snake, but he turned out to be a fascist's nightmare--a president who thought he worked for the people.

**********************************************************

Yeah, but I'll always think of LBJ as a stooge for the Eastern Establishment elitists, who were more concerned with having a puppet in place whom they could easily manipulate to their advantage. They knew they'd be able to bend him to do their bidding by holding the Bobby Baker/Billy Sol Estes debacle over his head. He may have boasted about "Never having to worry about being made out to be an idiot by those Kennedys, again." But, I'm sure he didn't expect JFK to be brutally murdered, either. Maybe, maimed to the point of having to give up running for office in the upcoming election, whereby LBJ would then be given the opportunity to demonstrate his ability to cooperate with the "dogs of war" chiefs-of-staff, and their Wall Street corporate handlers, not to mention guaranteeing that his Tejas oil buddies would be able to continue doing the bidding of their Rockefeller overlords, unimpeded [oil depletion allowances].

I've looked over the Mac Wallace connection, and it more or less resembles a "Jack Ruby" type of alliance, on par with a small-town, country-rural, strong-arm-attempts-at-keeping-our-dirty- laundry-in-in-our-own-backyard, regional form of enforcement. LBJ would never be taken seriously by the power structure behind this coup. He was merely being humored by them, and they knew exactly how to appeal to his po-dunk sensibilities. They played him for all he was worth, and he went along with it for fear of his reputation, and more for his life, towards the end. He agreed with fellow Dixiecrat Richard Russell's protests and utter disbelief with what they were trying to perpetrate on the public in the egregious way the WCR was handling the evidence and conducting the investigation. That emerged from the taped phone conversations that took place from the Whitehouse during the months following the assassination.

I find this section of Armstrong's quite compelling in that respect:

"Now, I have a question for the audience.... How many of you realize that nothing that I have shown or discussed this afternoon has anything to do with the murder of President Kennedy? The Minox camera, W-2 forms, two Oswald wallets, drivers license, school records, backyard photos, altered evidence, suppressed FBI reports... these have absolutely nothing to do with the the murder of President Kennedy--nothing at all. But this suppression and manipulation of evidence has everything to do with hiding the true identity of Oswald, his background, his intelligence connections, and framing him as the assassin. Had the FBI presented unaltered physical evidence and testimony to the public 35 years ago, Oswald's dual identity and the setting up of Harvey as the "patsy" would likely have been discovered. Those responsible for creating the two Oswalds--our intelligence agencies--would have been linked directly to the assassination. To learn which intelligence agency was involved, we again turn to witnesses whose testimony was suppressed:

* the afternoon of the assassination Dallas reporter Seth Kantor was

provided with detailed biographical information on Oswald--before

Oswald's name was broadcast on radio or TV. The information was

supplied by Harold Hendrix, a CIA "media friend" who acted as a

conduit for CIA leaks.

* CIA employee Donald Deneslya (LEFT-SLIDE 87) read reports of a CIA

agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the

US with a Russian wife and child--that Agent was Oswald.

* CIA officer David Phillips provided the Warren Commission with

information that Oswald was at the Russian and Cuban embassies in

Mexico City, then later admitted that the information he had

provided was false.

* CIA Agent Donald Norton said "Oswald was with the CIA, and if he did it

then you better believe the whole CIA was involved".

* Former CIA agent Joseph Newbrough said "Oswald was an agent for the

CIA and acting under orders".

* CIA paymaster James Wilcott said he had furnished money for the Oswald

project--code named RX ZIM (LEFT-SLIDE 88). He said it was common

knowledge among his group that Oswald was an agent of the CIA.

* CIA Agent John Garrett Underhill told friends, just before he died,

"Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. They've killed the President. I've

been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away

with it, but they did".

* (LEFT-SLIDE 89) Lyndon Johnson was convinced there was a plot and

that the CIA had something to do with it

* (LEFT-SLIDE 90) CIA Agent William Gaudet said "the man who probably

knows as much as anybody alive on all of this... is... I still think

is Howard Hunt"----CIA Agent and Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt.

When researchers began to uncover indications of CIA involvement in the assassination, the CIA sent out this memo (LEFT-SLIDE 91). The memo offered suggestions to media assets on how to block and impede investigation of the Kennedy assassination by researchers. The media complied and has supported the Warren Commission findings while ignoring the work of the research community. Whenever a new book is published naming Oswald as the lone assassin, the author is interviewed on national television and his book reviewed by the New York Times. When new information is uncovered that suggests government involvement or hints of a conspiracy, that information is usually attacked, ridiculed or buried in a non-descript article in a small town newspaper. We have learned to doubt the sincerity of the media and question their credibility and motives. But we do not question the existence of a political iron curtain that keeps the work of the research community from reaching the public through the media.

With all of the criticism leveled at the Warren Commission over the years, it is rather ironic that we turn to the Warren Commission to see the best photographic example of Lee Harvey Oswald. This (LEFT-SLIDE 92) Warren Commission exhibit appeared in newspapers at the time of Oswald's "defection" in 1959. When each half of Oswald's face is viewed separately (RIGHT-SLIDE 106), it is easy to see that half of the photo is Harvey, and half is Lee. (LEFT-SLIDE 93)--a creation of the CIA. Exposing and understanding the two "Oswalds" will not solve the Kennedy assassination, but it does give us insight into the illegal covert capabilities of CIA operations and the ability of government agencies to manipulate evidence and concealed their knowledge and involvement with Oswald. We understand why witness testimony was altered and evidence fabricated. We finally realize why Harvey Oswald was not allowed to stand trial and had to be eliminated. After 35 years, many pieces to this puzzle have fallen into place while while others are still elusive--but if you understand who Harvey and Lee Oswald really were, who created them and who directed them, then you will know who was responsible for the assassination of John Kennedy. Thank you for listening."

This is what I've surmized over time and after reading the various pieces of the the puzzle, as its been allowed to unfold. JMHO

the forum has been converted without notice or explanation to a site

without photos.

Jack

If only I could convert this forum to one which is 95% free of idiots .

You CAN do everything you used to in the old version and I regret to reflect that you probably will.

*****************************************************

"If only I could convert this forum to one which is 95% free of idiots .

You CAN do everything you used to in the old version and I regret to reflect that you probably will."

And, since I can no longer use color coding to quote, I've now resorted to bolding it, which makes it seem as if I'm yelling at you.

Hey, Andy. That's what I appreciate about you. Your unbridled, brutal honesty in describing those of us who are members of Simkins' section of the forum. And yeah, I know. If the shoe fits..., right?

Since 1963 ,books,television programs.etc. Something for these conspiracy buffs to profit off of the death of late President. Men like Herschal Womack and Jack White tell you it wasn't Oswald in the back yard photos! Who the hell was it? Oswald would be proud of his name in the history books. That's all he ever wanted! Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong.

Sir...your accusation that I have profited is ridiculous.

I have never "profited" from the assassination, unless

you count an "expenses paid" trip to London by Central

Television to help with a documentary, which picked

up my airfare and hotel costs. There was no "pay"

involved. As you say...PROVE THAT I PROFITED.

I risked more than $20,000 to produce several

videos. Fortunately, sales helped me recover most

of the cost. The videos are now available FREE on

the internet. PROVE THAT I PROFITED OR RETRACT

YOUR SCURRILOUS ACCUSATION!

Jack

Mr. White,I said that you and Herschal Womack said that LHO was not the man in the backyard photo.PLEASE re-read it. I did not say that you profited.......

Since 1963 ,books,television programs.etc. Something for these conspiracy buffs to profit off of the death of late President. Men like Herschal Womack and Jack White tell you it wasn't Oswald in the back yard photos! Who the hell was it? Oswald would be proud of his name in the history books. That's all he ever wanted! Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong.

**************************************************

"Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong."

And, look what happened to Flynt. You could've at least gotten the spelling of his name right. He became a paraplegic for making that offer. Shot at, and paralyzed from the waist down. And, don't try and hand me any of your hairbrained explanations on that one because I've got it on firsthand authority, you fool.

Your right where you should be............California!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OOOOOHH, REGIONAL SMACK!

*************************************************

"OOOOOHH, REGIONAL SMACK!"

Oh, really? WELL, WHO ASKED YOU?

Ironically in 1980 Flynt hired Mitch WerBell, one of the suspects in the JFK assassination, to handle his security.

Whatever else anyone thinks of Flynt for his Hustler magazine, he was dedicated as few others to getting the truth on JFK out and knew exactly what kind of monster was behind it...and Terry is right, he was shot to shut him down on that...if not to try to kill him. He published four issues [have two copies of each!] of a magazine with nothing but hard-hitting progressive investigative journalism [Mae Brussel, Penn Jones and others!]. It as called Rebel Magazine and it was GREAT!.....and was SHUT DOWN by the National Security Monster because it was on target. Larry was shot for the the magazine and his offer of $1,000,000 to solve the crime and more money behind him for other such. While I don't like sexist rags like Hustler,

I just have zero issue with that type of free enterprise: porn, prostitution, etc. I don't see anything sexest about it as long as everyone involved is a willing adult.

I take my hat off to you Mr. Flynt....a true patriot who paid a very high price for your morality and courage! He brought Mae Brussel to many more people's attention and was on the trail....as have others...when they were stopped dead [or nearly so] in their tracks for being on the right trail of the assassins. Peter

Try this one on for hard hitting journalism - from first issue of Rebel

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...K%20Assass.html

Thank you for the link Peter. That's excellent. I was hoping to see some of that info.

********************************************************

"I just have zero issue with that type of free enterprise: porn, prostitution, etc. I don't see anything sexest about it as long as everyone involved is a willing adult."

Ditto. There's that little friend of your's again, Myra.

And, I remember when Prouty couldn't get published in anything but a coo's magazine [GENT (?)] back then, either. Hey, you gotta make hay the quickest way you can so you can use it to pursue the more important issues. That doesn't mean that you've "flipped" or sold out to The Dark Side, or become a fascist, capitalistic asshole. You know, the Chinese have an old proverb that goes like this, "Don't get mad, get even." And, if that means having to resort [a little] to beating them at their own game, then so be it. You've got to be able to level the playing [or killing] field sometimes. Fight fire with fire, if you will. How're you going to be able to score a point if you're always relegated to finishing last, just because you're considered to be one of the "good guys?"

Hey, John. Where's my color coding function?

Has anyone seen "The People vs Larry Flynt" -- another Oliver Stone (ahem) movie?

From a review on some right wing site:

"Some of the usual suspects were involved with this project. Harrelson has the exploitative "Natural Born Killers" and "Money Train" to his (dis)credit, not to mention several years' worth of obnoxious politicking, And one of the producers is Oliver Stone, who comes through with yet another Stone conspiracy theory: After Flynt is shot in a small Georgia town where he's on trial, one of his flunkies speculates that the gunman was CIA, assigned to rub out Flynt because Hustler offered a $1 million reward for JFK's real killers."

http://www.mediaresearch.org/BozellColumns...col19970107.asp

Also an interesting ebay (and a very interesting seller, "ciajfk.com"):

"LARRY FLYNT KILLS JFK ASSASSINATION ARTICLE,

AFTER OFFERING $1,000,000 REWARD.

"In 1997 Larry Flynt hired Bruce Campbell Adamson to write a 6,000 word JFK assassination article, but killed the story. This is the story! The author has also added exhibits to the article to let the public become the judge to decide if there is enough proof to show a conspirac In fact the author will incorporate material which ties the CIA to Larry Flynt about the time he was shot. Coincidence or conspiracy? seems to be the question. This is the article that Larry Flynt killed while he still offers a $1,000,000 reward for information leading to exposing who was behind the JFK assassination."

http://cgi.ebay.com/Larry-Flynt-Kills-JFK-...bayphotohosting

***************************************************

Mr. Flynt is an acquaintance of mine. I gave him my Prouty CD's, and he gave me his book, and the movie.

I see him and his wonderful wife from time to time, and we try to keep in touch. I have the highest respect for him, and for what he's tried to do for the assassination investigation. I've told him about this forum, and the others I've been involved with. I was supposed to have e-mailed him the link to this forum, but became so busy over the last four months that I might have forgotten. I'll re-check and send it again, if that's the case.

Since 1963 ,books,television programs.etc. Something for these conspiracy buffs to profit off of the death of late President. Men like Herschal Womack and Jack White tell you it wasn't Oswald in the back yard photos! Who the hell was it? Oswald would be proud of his name in the history books. That's all he ever wanted! Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong.

Sir...your accusation that I have profited is ridiculous.

I have never "profited" from the assassination, unless

you count an "expenses paid" trip to London by Central

Television to help with a documentary, which picked

up my airfare and hotel costs. There was no "pay"

involved. As you say...PROVE THAT I PROFITED.

I risked more than $20,000 to produce several

videos. Fortunately, sales helped me recover most

of the cost. The videos are now available FREE on

the internet. PROVE THAT I PROFITED OR RETRACT

YOUR SCURRILOUS ACCUSATION!

Jack

Mr. White,I said that you and Herschal Womack said that LHO was not the man in the backyard photo.PLEASE re-read it. I did not say that you profited.......

Since 1963 ,books,television programs.etc. Something for these conspiracy buffs to profit off of the death of late President. Men like Herschal Womack and Jack White tell you it wasn't Oswald in the back yard photos! Who the hell was it? Oswald would be proud of his name in the history books. That's all he ever wanted! Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong.

**************************************************

"Larry Flint's offer still stands. Solve the JFK assassination and he will pay you $1,000,000 . As for me,yes I wish there was a conspiracy. There is no forensic evidence to prove otherwise! Prove me wrong."

And, look what happened to Flynt. You could've at least gotten the spelling of his name right. He became a paraplegic for making that offer. Shot at, and paralyzed from the waist down. And, don't try and hand me any of your hairbrained explanations on that one because I've got it on firsthand authority, you fool.

Your right where you should be............California!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*******************************************************

"Your right where you should be............California!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

A retort that could only be forthcoming from a dumbass, such as yourself. I'm a NYC transplant, you jerk!

"Since 1963 ,books,television programs.etc. Something for these conspiracy buffs to profit off of the death of late President. Men like Herschal Womack and Jack White tell you it wasn't Oswald in the back yard photos! Who the hell was it?"

"Mr. White,I said that you and Herschal Womack said that LHO was not the man in the backyard photo.PLEASE re-read it. I did not say that you profited......."

Maybe you didn't write the words saying that Herschal Womack and Jack White profitted, but you sure in hell IMPLIED that they did, in the context of how you worded your statement. Quit trying to cover up for your idiotic gaffs because you're already busted, numbnuts!

Hi Ashton:

Re words in one of your previous posts.....Hope your ready for more Codswallop, I do like that word. Goofy, Idiotic and therefore Comical and may even be Risible to the point of being Suicical...thoughts at this time.....

This may or may not be of any interest, but what I believe I may see ..

QUOTE

Bernice: "One problem that has always been a bug bear imo, within the research, is that the witness statements of the people who were

there and did see the reactions to and by JFK, of the hits to his head, is not and cannot be complied to what is seen within the same areas of the Zapruder film......? Therefore ??"

Ashton Quote :"My current opinion, subject to change, is that the Zapruder film and the Nix film—whatever their individual flaws and shortcomings in current versions—capture the dread moment in cruciform concordance, and in ways that could not possibly have been faked.

In fact, I believe that is at least one reason why the Z film was withheld so long. It certainly was long enough to generate a tidal wave of anecdotal testimony—itself in conflict—creating so much tangled bramble and brush of contention and disunity that it only could guarantee a firestorm of controversy and contradictions around the film itself the moment it became available to ignite it. And it did.

It is a conflagration raging out of control on this forum at this moment.".....B:always......

*******************

My thoughts on the Zapruder and the Nix films, are as follows....at this time.

There were frames cut out of the Zapruder film as well as the Nix....therefore they are both altered...changed.....to what was their true state.....once touched they became obsolete within the studies, in trying to solve the assassination in the area....of the head shots.... as we do not know, exactly where, nor how many frames were exorcised....therefore to try to study the assassination and the head shots within, becomes a exercise in futility.....as well as frustration...

That, I am thinking is the why it was done.... that with some frames, several, one or two whatever , if they were cut out of the Zapruder as well as the Nix and in the crucial head shot areas..and we do not know positively that they were not.......we may have no possibility of proving nor solving the assassination in that particluar area, ever...Don't get me wrong, I am very interested in the films, photos and all.....I have become a collector..

Why would they hold the Zapruder film as they did as well as the Nix, which as was not released..either..?.......Oh ,perhaps for want of a better word, so that we would be completely taken in by them..

Our need being so great as well as our our exuberance, when they finally were, that we would and did throw caution to the wind.....We choose to overlook, what we perhaps saw as any faults within, until some researchers began their studies within.....Perhaps we were thinking, now that we had the films the case could be solved...........exactly as they knew all would......??

It sure did not work out that way, and has done nothing but cause more dissension ....as intended, I believe.....The Zapruder wars have been raging ever since....

I do not know, positively, but they played and continue to play the game, and they also only release what they want us to see and hear....at any given time...

Just some thoughts...

***************************

In studying.....Just : The Dealey Witnesses & Parkland:

The eye witnesses information from Dealey Plaza, along with the Doctors, Nurses, Clint Hill, and others that saw the head wound at Parkland along with their medical first day statements at the hospital....

They Comply...

In studying .......Just :

The Zapruder film, along with the findings of Betheda and the autopsy..They Comply....

In studying......

The later witness that came forth some years later with their siteings and information re Bethesda, such as Dennis David, and O'Connor.....Comply with neither...

There appears to be three separate scenarios..but never correlating .....together...and never will..

That in imo, is where the many problems lie, in all, and why the forever dissent which causes the intended divisions amongst the JFK researchers, and the way it was all deliberately set up..to enact that discord......

By doing so, we are fulfilling, exactly what their well laid plans intended...imo..

***************************

Below is the RR Toolbox, ( see white box on left, at back in the Marguerite Oswald photo) that Ed Hoffman spoke of where he saw from a distance a RR worker, catch a rifle thrown to him by the man that Lee Bowers mentions, that you have inserted in your re-creation, at the North end of the fence...along with the younger man, the man then turned and walked back along the fence.....Bowers I believe mentions the RRworker in the general area, but no specifics...in his taped interview with Lane..

"Bowers testified that at the time of the motorcade on November 22, he was located in the Union Terminal Tower in the railroad yard.(182) When asked what people he noticed standing between the tower and Elm Street at the underpass on the high ground, Bowers stated that he saw two man standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other.(183) One of them was middle aged, heavy set, and was wearing a white shirt and dark trousers.(184) The other man was in his mid-twenties, wearing either a plaid shirt or a plaid jacket.(185) Bowers said those two men were directly in his line of vision toward the mouth of the underpass and appeared to be watching the progress of the motorcade.(186) Bowers said he saw the man in the white shirt standing there at the time of the shots, but that he could not see the younger man in the plaid clothing because of the trees, which made him harder to distinguish.(187) "

"Bowers said that at that point a motorcycle officer ran up the incline toward the trees in the general area of where the two men were standing;( see two fence Officer Hargis areas photos ) Bowers said there was some kind of commotion at that place, but that he did not know what had happened.(188) "

See also view of Bowers below...

Link further below.

**************************

Roof of Post Office Annex Building..Jesse Price

In the Mark Lane video, as close as I can relate to you, as I am not able to capture the frames from the videos, perhaps some day....

..Jesse Price is seen and it appears to be perhaps towards the middle of the Post Office Terminal Annex Building roof, south side of Dealey..( see Map below ) .along with Mark Lane "Rush to Judgement" video, he sits on the edge, and points towards the middle of the fence area, in that general area, where about Hatman and the smoke is seen...and speaks of a young man running from that specific area, with something in his hand, he also mentions that it could possibley have been a radio...He runs across the tracks, towards the railroad cars ,turning and then disappearing out of site, but down towards the street that leads towards the back of the TSBD...You have hatman in your re-creation...in that general area, I believe, where the smoke is seen approximately..but I believe he needs to be moved more towards the middle of the fence somewhat...??..but not according to the Nix clip ??..when shown the spot that he saw the smoke drift from, by Sam Hoffman he, and Mark Lane seem to be standing between trees, and just to the left perhaps ten-to fifteen feet or so, of the last sign..looking from behind the fence, leading to the underpass, Sam also states that is approximately where he saw JFK take the hit to the head..

*********************************

Smoke:

After studying the smoke again , in the photos, it appears to be drifting, and I am thinking that is the reason it appears so large, it is dissipating, there was a wind that day in the Plaza, it would not have appeared as such when it first left the barrel..but the wind would have carried it..

Mr. Holland. There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. Stern. What number would that have been in the -

Mr. Holland. Well, that would - they were so close together.

Mr. Stern. The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. Holland. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth.

Tom Dillard, photographer, Mrs. Earle Cabell..Mrs.Donald Baker, P.O Earle Brown, and Cong.Ralph Yarborough..also said they smelled graphite.

Saw smoke:at top of the grassy knoll the picket fence north of Elm St..

On the Overpass: Sam Holland, James Simmons, Richard Dodd ,"Rush to Judgement"...Walter Winborn ,and, Thomas Murphy "Cover Up".. Austin Miller ,WC Vol.XXIV p.217,

Clemon Johnson also standing on the triple underpass, did not see the smoke from the trees, he did mention exhaust he saw, clarifys in "No More Silence"..he did not look at the grassy knoll, he kept his eyes on the limo, until it left the Plaza.The exhaust he saw was on the street.. Others were looking at the knoll, he was not. The FBI in their report stated that Richard Dodd didn't know where the smoke came from..But Johnson, sets this right...."Holland and Dodd, if both were living today, they'd almost fight you that they saw smoke coming from out of those bushes. They swore that they were looking right at the bushes at the time." he also tells about how Dodd and Holland ran to some bushes saying, "The shots came out of those bushes". so much for the FBI....Johnson also confirms what Dodd says in the video "Rush to Judgement"...

Some think the smoke could have been exhaust from say the motorcycles in the motorcade, there was what has been called a rather stiff breeze that blew north to south, that gusted at times to 20 miles an hour.The exhaust would have been blown further south of any of the bikes.It would not have blown north to the trees and the fence at the top of the knoll.

Cheryl McKinnon sitting on the grass at the foot of the knoll looked back over her shoulder at the fence and saw smoke. Rosemary Willis was standing on the south side of Elm looking in this direction at the time, said she also saw smoke in this area..( see photo of smoke Bill Miller.).

**********************************

Jean Hill I believe mentions the DPM with a rifle in hand, in her book, "The Last Dessenting Witness"..in the approximate area in general where the Badgeman, shooter was located which you have inserted also, I believe she mentions, he was just standing there...

*************

Shot from the right:

SSA Clint Hill:"On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from the follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile."

SSA Paul Landis: "My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was. I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere towards the front right hand side of the road."

Officer Bobby Hargis motorcycle squad DPD..

He testified: "...At the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me...There was something in my head that said that they probably could

have been coming from the riailroad overpass , because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood......I was just a little back and left of.....

Mrs. Kennedey, but I didn't know........I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge,

and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time..."..

He then came back down jumped on his motorcycle and " rode under-neath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if he

could see anyone running away from the scene......." VI, 294-6

" I looked over to the TSBDB, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was......seemed to be looking

up at the building, or anything, like they knew where the shots were coming from ..........

Some people looking out of the windows up there

didn't seem like they knew what was going on........About the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge.....and I thought

maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle"..6H 295

****************************

Shot South side Overpass....

(See photo showing Tosh area of gunsmoke, by J.Dolva, croppped..and also photo of the North end, where the bridge angles in, similar on both sides, and hidden from veiw...where Hargus ran to)

Bill Grote, is correct, will post The Cancellare where it shows approximately where Tosh thought a shooter could have been, the far corner he thought re the parking lot, that general area, on the South side...

Doug Weldon, in his research also found what he believed to be the trajectory from the south corner of the Overpass that accounted for a possible throat entrance frontal shot, in the same general area..... his work is in the book "Assassination Science"....as the Limo turned the corner onto Elm and proceeded down the hill, the angle of such, for a time, is straight on and pointed towards that corner of the overpass...as it moves along the curve ,there was a direct clear shot without windshield, Jackie nor anyone nor anything in the way...as it travelled down Elm.........according to his research..it was possible...but I believe Doug's work found that trajectory from the farthest corner of the Overpass, but in the same general area..as where Tosh smelled the gunpowder.....

Both far corners of the Overpass are completely hidden from view, according to Tosh's and Dougs.....information..and a photo below dhowing the North end......I believe. Tosh stated on a later visit to the Plaza, he went over that area and he does relate, this info on this Forum, that there is a blind spot, hidden from all, who would have been on the bridge at that time.... an angle that turns inward on the Overpass railing..at that spot........but the ground there is lower on the South side.....it was in this general area, that they smelled the gunsmoke...

I have a photo showing the other North end, which would be approximately the same view, showing the fence angle turning in, in connection to that side, where Officer Hargis climbed to peer over, btw, which is close to the drain seen behind the fence...

Some also smelled gunpowder on Elm Street...as they turned the corner and travelled down the hill in the general knoll area ...the mayors wife, for one, Mrs.Cabell also mentioned such.

*****************************

Drains

See photos:

(The two men are Penn Jones and Bob Groden...below in photo, the other is a Garrison investigator..)

Other areas where research has been done, is the Drain at the North corner of the fence, and the sewer drain on Elm street...

The drain at the north corner was researched by Penn Jones and Jack Brazil ( they researched all the drains ) also Jim Garrison and some of his men they were all over that area...in 67..along with them...John Judge also looked into them with Penn Jones.....I will post a photo showing the drain possibilitys....at that time.

About the sewer drain on Elm Street on the North side of the street....Tom Wilson, studied this area as well as Gregory Burham, and Robert Harris, also John Judge has his comments below....the researchers all found the trajectory of one of the shots to the head, was from a upwards angle, that came from below JFK....?? Their studies were done separately, some years apart ....the sewer drain on Elm at that time, was by no means as it is now, the road was completely recovered with a fresh layer of asphalt by Oliver Stone for the movie JFK, which of course brought the height up, as well as over the years toppings, you will see the differences.. the old drains as you will see and read, were able to have a man stand within, there was also a sewer system that Penn and Brazil and his men, crawled through which came out to the Humber River drain, a huge entrance ,exit system...of such...I am including the following information for your studies...from an earlier compilation...

I have also read that Jack Brazil has a map of the Dallas sewer system, perhaps if still alive and responding, he may be able to

supply such...I have never been able to obtain his email address....if he has one...and never been able to locate him...perhaps that would be much easier for another member.

..also I do not have Tom Wilson's information, no one does..... he is in a episode of TMWKK, and goes through all his research......for the viewers......he was a former U.S. Steel scientist...his work was never published though he did present a copy of all to the HSCA, I am thinking, or the ARRB...?.gone right now.......it has disappeared and is not found....his findings which were years ahead are similar to the findings of some contributors in "Assassination Science.".....

Gil Jesus wrote this below I believe in 2005....there is a map from Gregory Burham's research that also ties into his research....re distances and angles from the Elm St. sewer...below.

""However, some have suggested (myself included) in the last several

years that the fatal shot came from a storm drain on the north side of

Elm Street. This storm drain is located at an approximately 12 degree

angle and 70 feet to the right front of where the fatal shot hit the

President. Its trajectory angle would explain the location of the right

rear occipital/parietal exit wound. It would explain the spraying of

the police officers to the left rear of the car (they were sprayed so

hard that one of the officers, Bobby Hargis, stated afterward that he

initially thought he was hit). It would explain the Harper skull

fragment's location to the left rear of the car. And finally it

explains the back and to the left direction of the head movement in

harmony with the aforementioned evidence..""

*****************

Jack Brazil thought, that a shooter could have crawled up from the connecting pipes from a different location and crawled back after the shooting. He would not have to climb into the manhole before and climb out after.He would get there from connecting pipes...to Elm Street..

No link.

more data.

Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:42

Posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk

By XXXXXXXXXXX

Early information.

City workers had the sewer opened behind the tool shed today. It appears

to be a standard sewer in that the round opening is the top of the bell.

The sides are built with brick and had iron rungs for climbing down. The

pipe at the bottom was covered with mud and debris but it appeared to be

12-15 feet deep and about 4 feet in diameter.

Tom Bowden

The Conspiracy Museum

No link working now, not found..

*********************************

Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:55:11 -0400

From John Judge

To: treefrog

Ed,

I missed the earlier part of this exchange but have always believed the fatal shot came from the storm sewer on Elm Street to the right front of the motorcade. This was not from speculation or photo angling. The letter from Ed T, whoever that is, hits the nail on the head. I used to crawl down in the sewer with Penn Jones in 60s and it is quite different today. For one thing, the bottom has been filled in (note the flattening of the pipe opening at the bottom) and the opening that used to come up to my armpits now only reaches my waist. Oliver Stone repaved the street for his film and considerably reduced the size of the opening onto the street. It was more than ample and wide for the head shot. And Penn Jones, Jim Garrison and other critics placed the shot there from reports by witnesses and the physical evidence. It was Mark Lane in the late 60's who tried to move everyone up to the Grassy Knoll.

Earwitnesses heard a completely different sound from the last shot fired, one saying it echoed as if in a sewer.

Also see Livingstone " Killing the Truth"..

***************************

Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.

A shot from the Grassy Knoll would have reached JFK's head at a downward angle, exiting from the base of his skull, and driving him down into the seat as it sent him backwards. A close examination of his reaction in both Zapruder and Nix films shows that he rises up from the seat as he is thrown back at over 100 mph. The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below.

Brain matter and skull fragments explode upwards and travel back and to the left with great velocity at the moment of impact. Jackie later revealed that she picked up a portion of skull on the left rear of the car behind her seat, before being pushed back in by Clint Hill. A portion of skull was found near the curb on the south side of Elm, nearly 30 feet behind the position of the car at the point of the fatal shot and across the street.

Officer Billy Hargis was riding his motorcycle to the left rear of JFK's limousine and witnessed the head shot. He was quoted in the Warren Commission testimony saying that he was hit so hard with a skull fragment through his leather jacket that he thought he had been hit by a bullet. He looked down to see he was covered with blood, stopped and got off his motorcycle, and said "Am I hit?" He later parked the motorcycle over the opening of the sewer and ran up the Grassy Knoll with other witnesses. Quoted in the Dallas Morning News on the 30th anniversary of the assassination, Hargis recalled the event and said the brain and blood matter arced up and came down on him. Again, all this is more consistent with a shot from below and to the front.

The storm sewer is a good hidden location, one that a military sniper would choose. Penn Jones crawled through the pipes and discovered that going west along Elm leads to the vertical pipe that opens behind the Grassy Knoll fence near the overpass, and going across Elm and to the east leads to a grate in the basement of the Dallas jail. He yelled out when he got there, but no one responded.

The sewer shot was rarely mentioned by researchers or the public after Lane focused on the Grassy Knoll, but a few of us kept seeking the evidence. Subsequent "tell all" books by alleged participants usually repeat the standard locations, the TSBD window or the Grassy Knoll, for verisimilitude. A book published in the 1990's, long after it would have been fashionable to lie about the sewer location, titled Treason is My Daily Bread, by Mikhail Ledbedev, reveals his role in a plot involving Nazi intelligent agent Reinhard Gehlen to kill Kennedy in Dallas, and mentions that he was sent to shoot from the storm sewer. He may be covering for the real assassin in this, but by picking the sewer location he adds credibility to his account in my view. There are many other indications that Gehlen and his cold war spy network that formed our CIA were part of the JFK assassination conspiracy.

In the end though, it does not matter exactly where the shots came from or who fired them, even. None of that leads us back to the plotters, but the patsy Oswald does. Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.

John Judge

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

Russ Files: Dealey Plaza Conspiracy Witnesses

Report SCA..1979..

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm

Alphabetical list of witnesses and testimony....

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

There may be other areas I do not know of, that have been researched or reported, this information may help you..and others.....whether there were shooters in each and everyone of these areas , and if they actually fired, ? I do not know...

Below there is also a photo of a view to Zapruder and Sitzman, from the fence...

*************************************

John Dolva: and others, you may be interested in this Report from W.Anthony Marsh..

Circumstantial Evidence of a Head Shot From The Grassy Knoll

© - Copyright 1993 by W. Anthony Marsh

Presented at The Third Decade conference June 18-20, 1993

As much as we would like to have direct evidence of a head shot from the

grassy knoll, such evidence may be missing, inconclusive, or suspect.

However, there may be a body of circumstantial evidence which would indicate

that the fatal shot which struck President Kennedy's head at Z-313 came from

the grassy knoll. This paper will not present conclusive proof of a head shot

from the grassy knoll, but it will cite examples of circumstantial evidence

which strongly suggest that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Some of

the examples are well known, but need to be reexamined.

The Zapruder film is the most well-known evidence of the head shot.

Various studies and interpretations of it have been made. Some studies, such

as the one done by Itek, have analyzed the movement of President Kennedy's

head around the time of the head shot. They note that President Kennedy's

head moves forward significantly from Z-312 to Z-313 and cite that as proof

of a shot hitting the head from behind. What they and everyone else has

failed to do is analyze the movements of all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limousine, including the Connallys. That is what I have

done.

My analysis of the movements of the Kennedys and the Connallys is not,

unfortunately, based on the same reproductions of the Zapruder film as used

in other studies, due to cost considerations. I made measurements in 1/60th

of an inch increments on a photocopy set of prints from Zapruder frames 312

to 321, as reproduced by Robert Cutler in his dividend to The Grassy Knoll

Gazette of X-79. Bob's reference line is drawn through the center of the

window knob. I made all measurements starting at the front edge of his

reference line. However, I noticed that the distance from the reference line

to the rollbar is not constant. This means that we can not use unadjusted

measurements from these prints to calculate precise positions, but can

estimate relative movements. This may be due to a variety of factors, such as

variations in printing and copying each frame, changes in perspective,

mismeasurements, or blurring. Some Zapruder frames are too blurred to allow

accurate measurements. Each measurement of Nellie Connally's position is to

the front edge of her hair. Each measurement of John Connally's position is

to the front edge of his forehead. Each measurement of Jackie Kennedy's

position is to the front edge of her pillbox hat. Each measurement of JFK's

position is to the edge of his hair at the rear of his head. All measurements

were lined up against the chrome strip in the background for better contrast.

Be sure to remember that increasing measurements for the Connallys represent

forward motion, while increasing measurements for the Kennedys represent

rearward motion. Notice the direction and amount of movement of each person

listed in Figure 1. Between Z-312 and Z-313, all the occupants of the rear

compartment of the limo moved forward by about the same amount. Unless all

four were hit by bullets (a practical impossibility), their forward movement

must be caused by something else. The most likely cause is inertia due to the

limousine having suddenly slowed down. Dr. Luis Alvarez noted in his study [1]

that the average velocity of the limousine going down Elm Street sharply

decreased just before the head shot. Some researchers have theorized that

Secret Service agent Bill Greer jammed on the brakes or took his foot off the

accelerator. Whatever he did, the limousine very quickly changed from an

average velocity of about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH just before the head shot.

Obeying the law of inertia, passengers in the limo were thrust forward in

relation to their previous positions in the limousine. Further evidence of

this effect is the fact that the Connallys continued to move forward while

President Kennedy was being thrust backwards. I have not done a similar

analysis of previous Zapruder frames to pinpoint the start of the occupants'

forward movement, so I would urge others to do so themselves, in order to

verify my results and observations. Figure 1.

Z-frame rollbar Nellie Connally Jackie JFK

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

x/60" Z312 136 106 77 44 159

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 9 forward 5 forward 10 forward 6 forward 7

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z313 145 111 87 38 152

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z314 147 113 88 39 151

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 0 forward 4 forward 6 rearward 6

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z315 151 113 92 33 157

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 2 forward 1 rearward 1 rearward 9

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z316 148 115 93 34 166

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 2 forward 2 forward 7 forward 4 rearward 11

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z317 150 117 100 30 177

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 3 forward 5 forward 2 rearward 5

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z319 153 122 NA 28 182

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 0 forward 4 forward 3 rearward 14

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z320 153 126 130 25 196

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

difference 4 rearward 1 forward 1

----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+

Z321 157 NA NA 26 195

Perhaps the most controversial evidence produced by the House Select

Committee on Assassinations would be the acoustical studies. In my opinion,

the conclusion that there was a conspiracy should not rest entirely on the

acoustical studies. But the acoustical studies are useful for establishing

the time between shots. All times are measured in seconds after the

microphone became stuck open for several minutes. BBN found 4 shots on the

tape, 3 of which came from the TSBD at 137.70, 139.27, and 145.61

respectively. The grassy knoll shot was found by Weiss and Aschkenasy to be

recorded at 144.90. There was a fifth set of impulses which was rejected by

HSCA as being a false alarm at 140.32. I have looked at the waveforms more

closely to try to determine when the muzzle blast of each shot was recorded,

to a greater degree of accuracy. My best estimate for each shot is 137.702,

139.268, 140.339, 144.895, and 145.608. You can get a general idea of the

spacing between shots by subtracting one time from another. But there is an

additional variable which must be taken into account. BBN found that the

recorder used that day was running about 5% slow, so all times must be

multiplied by about 1.05 in order to restore the original spacing. A more

accurate correction factor might be borrowed from the work which W&A did on

the grassy knoll shot. They found that a correction factor of 1.043 produced

the best fit for echo delays compared to their predicted model. Another

possible corroboration for the 1.043 correction factor is the 'bell' sound

found by BBN at 152.5. Although Todd Vaughan believes that it is only

electrical interference, if we can determine its true frequency, we can

derive the most accurate correction factor. That holds true for many other

sounds on the tape, such as car horns, tire squeals, police sirens, etc. BBN

found that the 'bell' sound had a nominal pitch of 420 Hz. This is close to

the note A, which is usually 440 Hz. If the sound is really a bell, it might

have been tuned to A=440. We do not know for sure what type of bell it was.

Most people have assumed that it is a carillon bell, but it could be a train

bell, a ship's bell, or a victory bell on a college campus. There are a

couple of other possible tunings which would produce a correction factor

close to 1.043. If the bell had been tuned using a mean-tone temperament

scale, it might have a real pitch of 438.075 Hz. Dividing that by 420 would

give us a correction factor of 1.0430357. If the bell had been tuned to an

old English standard of A=438.9, dividing that by 420 would give us a

correction factor of 1.045. Applying the correction factor to the spacing

between shots as found by BBN will give us the true spacing between muzzle

blasts picked up by McLain's cycle. If we want to then translate those into

Zapruder frames, we must multiply each interval by 18.3 frames. Figure 2 is

a rough approximation of how many frames there were between all 5 muzzle

blasts.

Matching these times to the Zapruder film is more complicated and

depends on making several real-world assumptions such as the speed of the

bullets. We can be fairly confident in ruling out the first three shots as

matching the head shot at Z-313, as such a match would place the first shot

after Z-255, when we can clearly see in Altgens 1-6 that President Kennedy

and Governor Connally have already been hit. The HSCA matched the last shot

with Z-313, because their medical evidence indicated that the head shot came

from behind. My alternative matchup tests the idea that the head shot came

from the grassy knoll.

Figure 2.

origin tape time spacing *1.043 *18.3 Z-frame Z-frame

TSBD 137.702 162 176

> 1.566 1.633 29.89

TSBD 139.268 192 206

> 1.071 1.117 20.44

TSBD 140.339 212 226

> 4.556 4.752 86.96

Knoll 144.895 299 313

> 0.713 0.744 13.61

TSBD 145.608 313 327

The first problem we notice with the HSCA version is that the first shot

is much too early. No other evidence supports a shot that early and clearly

President Kennedy was not hit by a bullet close to that frame. The first shot

was probably a miss. The HSCA places the hit to JFK's back at around Z190-

192. The problem with that is that we can see President Kennedy in the

Zapruder film during the range Z-190 to Z-210. He does not yet appear to be

reacting to being hit by a bullet. There is absolutely no indication that

Governor Connally was struck by a bullet at about that time, nor at about Z-

210 to Z-212, if we accept the fifth shot which HSCA rejected.

My matchup would indicate a hit to JFK's back somewhere in the range of

Z-206 to Z-210, and a hit to Connally's back somewhere in the range of Z-226

to Z-230. I believe this is more consistent with previous studies of the

Zapruder film and eyewitness testimony. If there is some way to prove exactly

when either President Kennedy or Governor Connally received their back

wounds, that would force us to choose between the HSCA version and mine,

regardless of other evidence.

Just as Altgens 1-6 helps us eliminate the first three shots as matches

with Z-313, it may also help us eliminate the last shot from the TSBD as

matching Z-313. Everyone is familiar with the fact that CE350 shows a crack

on the windshield and that it is not seen in Altgens 1-6, but is seen in

Altgens 1-7. There has been some doubt about which shot from which direction

caused that crack. I believe that I am the first person to notice something

in CE350 which would resolve the doubt. If you look carefully at CE350, you

will notice that the back of the rearview mirror is dented, but you can see

that it was not dented in Altgens 1-6. This damage was caused by a bullet

fragment which struck the windshield from the inside and ricochetted into the

rearview mirror. Many people believe this fragment came from the head shot,

which would been fired from the TSBD. I tend to feel that all the damage to

the limousine, consisting of the crack in the windshield, dented rearview

mirror and dented chrome topping, was done by the same shot. If we can find

evidence which pinpoints when that damage was done, we may be able to show

that it came several frames after Z-313. Photographic enhancement of the

Zapruder film, Muchmore film or the Bronson film might reveal that the

windshield was not cracked by Z-314. If that turns out to be true, then the

last shot from the TSBD must have missed JFK's head and hit the windshield.

In turn, that would mean that the fatal head shot came from the grassy knoll.

I seriously doubt that there is any photograph which would show exactly when

the rearview mirror was dented, but perhaps some as-yet-undiscovered

photograph would show when the chrome topping was dented. That dent could

only have been caused by a shot from behind the limo. If it was undented at

Z-314, that would prove that the head shot came from the grassy knoll.

Another factor which might influence our choosing the HSCA version or

mine would be the jiggle analysis of the Zapruder film. Even the HSCA

admitted that the jiggle analysis matched better when the grassy knoll shot

was lined up with Z-313. [2] Figure 3 compares the timing of the impulses

to the Zapruder film. The HSCA rejected the shot which is indicated in

brackets as being too fast for Oswald to have fired. The jiggle analysis

measured the amount of panning error by Zapruder. To simply and clarify,

I have put the groups into ascending order. The group with the largest

amount of blur is marked 'A', the second largest 'B', etc. I have chosen

the Hartmann figures to be representative, as his are usually midway

between Alvarez or Scott's figures. Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames

per second on average.

Figure 3. Two comparisons of jiggle analysis to acoustical data

Frames Group

158-159 D

191-197 B Note that the start of a jiggle group may not

227 C coincide with the firing or impact of a bullet.

290-291 E In most cases, it takes several frames before

313-318 A1 Zapruder reacts to a stimulus.

331-332 A2

HSCA Z-# hit? origin jiggle Marsh Z-# hit? origin jiggle

137.70 161 miss TSBD D 137.702 179 miss TSBD VI#1 B

139.27 191 JFK/JBC TSBD B 139.268 209 JFK TSBD VI#1

[140.32] 140.339 230 Connally TSBD VI#10 C

144.90 297 miss knoll E 144.895 312.6 JFK knoll A1

145.61 312 JFK TSBD A1 145.608 328 Connally TSBD VI#1 A2

The jiggle analysis can not be used as absolute proof of when a shot

occurred, but it matches up better for the head shot from the grassy knoll.

Could eyewitness testimony help resolve the question of which shot hit

what? Secret Service agent Clint Hill testified (2H144) that the last shot he

heard sounded as though it had hit some metal place. If he in fact had heard

the last shot from the TSBD hit the chrome topping, that would not, in and of

itself, prove that the TSBD shot missed JFK's head, as the dent could have

been caused by a fragment from the head shot. But it would narrow the range

during which the chrome topping was dented to between Z-313 to Z-331 and make

it more likely that the chrome topping was dented at the same time that the

windshield was cracked, rather than much earlier as some have speculated.

On pages 126-129 of Six Seconds in Dallas, Josiah Thompson cites the

statements of several witnesses who thought that a shot came from the grassy

knoll. William Newman felt that he and his family were in the direct path of

gunfire. Given their position, it seems more likely that the head shot came

from behind the fence on the grassy knoll than from the TSBD. Emmett Hudson,

who was standing on the steps leading up to the pergola, said that the shots

sounded as if they came from behind him, above his head and to his left. That

would place the origin near the fence. Zapruder felt that the head shot had

come from behind him and whistled past his right ear. Between these two

witnesses and behind them is the corner of the fence. W&A found a probable

shockwave at 24 ms. before the muzzle blast of the grassy knoll shot.

Assuming the weapon was aimed at the limousine, we can make a rough

calculation of the velocity of the bullet and the resultant angle of the

shockwave. Although the calculation for the decay of the shockwave is too

difficult for me, a rough calculation yielded an exit velocity of the bullet

at about 1564.5 fps. This would create a shockwave of at least 45 degrees on

either side of the flightpath of the bullet. All three witnesses were within

the cone of that shockwave and would have felt it very strongly.

How can we know whether the weapon was aimed at the limousine? If it had

been aimed in some opposite direction, the open microphone would have been

outside the cone of the shockwave and thus the shockwave would not have been

recorded. Another indication of where the weapon was aimed can be found in

the statement that Sam Holland made to Josiah Thompson when he was shown a

very clear copy of the Moorman 2 Polaroid. He felt that the viewpoint was

looking right down the barrel of the gun. Given Mary Moorman's position, the

gun would have been aimed at the limousine. In Moorman 2 we can see the head

of a man peering over the fence, about 9 feet from the corner. Interestingly,

this is the same spot where W&A located the origin of the grassy knoll shot,

unaware of the existence of Moorman 2. In Moorman 2 we do not see a side view

of any weapon as we might expect if it was not aimed at the limo. Whoever

this man was, he moved from that position very quickly after the head shot.

There is no one there in later Zapruder frames or in the Stoughton

photograph, taken shortly after the head shot. The Stoughton photograph has

never been analyzed. The Warren Commission and the House Committee were

unaware of its existence. I believe that no one had ever studied it before I

found it at the JFK Library. Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to

properly analyze it and obviously the government will not, as it might reveal

the presence of a gunman on the grassy knoll. One independent researcher,

Dale Meyers, has done some computer analysis which suggests that there is a

person behind the fence, several feet to the right of the corner.

Many witnesses can be seen reacting to the shots in various films. Some

fell to the ground very quickly while others did not seem to realize the

danger. We would expect those witnesses closest to the gun on the grassy

knoll to react very quickly and dramatically to the shockwave whizzing past

them from the grassy knoll. One of the best films to observe their reactions

was taken by Marie Muchmore. In Muchmore frame 42 we can see Hudson and his

two companions on the steps leading up to the pergola. They do not seem to be

reacting to any gunshots. In frame 55 we can see that two of the men are

reacting. It seems inconceivable that these men would not have reacted to the

sound of a shockwave coming from so close behind them. If the grassy knoll

shot was the miss before the head shot, we would expect to see these men

react before the head shot. The fact that they did not react until after the

head shot would seem to indicate that the head shot came from the grassy

knoll.

Based on the circumstantial evidence we have now, I believe it is more

likely that the head shot came from the grassy knoll. Existing evidence can

and should be examined further. More information can be gleaned from existing

data by novel analyses. The release of withheld data could provide new clues

and allow us to verify certain methods, such as the acoustical studies. I

urge other researchers to look for new evidence and perform new analyses.

------

1. W. Peter Trower, ed., "Discovering Alvarez", (Chicago: The University

Press, 1987), pp. 210-224. Also HSCA Vol. I, pp. 428-442.

2. House Select Committee on Assassinations, Report, p.80, footnote 16.

..Thanks for your time....

B

******************************************************

"..Thanks for your time....

B"

Bernie,

I need to tell you how much I appreciate all the time and work you've been doing and compiling over these past years. I'm amazed and impressed beyond words. I'm speechless! I truly am.

Thank YOU for YOUR time. I mean that, wholeheartedly.

Your Little Beggar from the lower 40,

Ter

But... ah prairie-xxxx I can't stay annoyed with you. You're articulate and entertaining and make boffo graphics and fake French like nobody. Come here mon chéri; group hug.

Aw, vous dites cela à tous les garçons.

Hugs back, kiddo.

Ashton

Woo hoo! Group kiss! Gettin' there gettin' there, now...

If I may break-in on this little tete-a-tete.....

Doh!

I think there is merit in Ashton's case and in the more standard model of the assassination. Most of what we 'saw' and 'see' and analyze was/is as 'real' as any magic trick....ie an illusion to divert attention from the real work at hand. Granted. And clever they were...but they did slip up on a few things....LHO winding up alive [talking] in jail and a few others.....and from these slip-ups we can gain clues. They loaded the Plaza with multiple teams and players - most who had no function but to forever confuse.

That's very true. I agree that the tactic of diversion was well utilized. I have a hard time remembering sources 'cause of the volume of reading, but I think it was Larry who wrote about a gun barrel coming out of the TSBD floor six window and speculated it was diversionary.

The oft repeated "smoke and mirrors" applies.

Of course, there were real teams and players who did real things there and other who planned before and covered-up [and killed] after. I have been reading the [i hope] better JFK tomes and state-of-the-art research for many a decade now and I find that some things discovered rather quickly by some very perceptive souls [Jones, Garrison, White, Weisburg, some witnesses, and others] have stood the test of time. Other ideas have slowly been moulded into a clearer and clearer picture [at least in my mind]. I think we are very close to seeing the structure and the fine details are of interest, but not so important...

Agreed. Tho' some things merit analysis IMO 'cause they'll be referenced by the uninformed and gullible. For example people will throw the Zapruder film around and say something couldn't have occured 'cause the film doesn't show it. I think it's helpful to be able to quickly demonstrate why that film is suspect.

if you can prove conspiracy with a capital C and that it came from inside the National Security Beast you really don't need to know the bullet numbers and angles, etc. But they add to the proof. We each have our areas of expertise and interest [and sometimes obsession]. Some like to look at minutia and players, others to stand back and look at the 'big picture' and puppet masters. Fine.

There are many idiots, fakes, finks, and disinformation persons on this...but many others [whatever their persuasion] mean well [to find the Truth and make the vital change back to democracy and rule of law, justice, etc. through information].

Well I'm a big picture kinda person myself. Though I think any area of study by someone with sincere interest is of merit and there is enough mystery to go around. My particular interest is linking President Kennedy's murder with subsequent and current events and the emergence of the US as a fascist country. But if people hadn't discredited the official stories then we'd have nothing to build on to illustrate the bigger picture.

My only problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against.

Let's not fight, but rather try to have some synergy of purpose and deed toward our goal.

Oh, gotta take issue with that big guy. We fight then we make up! See?

Group... whatever.

***************************************************************

"Well I'm a big picture kinda person myself. Though I think any area of study by someone with sincere interest is of merit and there is enough mystery to go around. My particular interest is linking President Kennedy's murder with subsequent and current events and the emergence of the US as a fascist country. But if people hadn't discredited the official stories then we'd have nothing to build on to illustrate the bigger picture.

My only problem with a focus on the details is the possibility of getting bogged down in nothing but them, which we do need to guard against."

Excellent observation, Myra.