Dixie Dea

What is the matter with you, Fetzer? You are making a conflict where there is none. Jack already said he could be misremembering. Monk agreed with me and you said Rich's notes agrees with me...and so does Judyth.....so what is your problem? You even praised Monk, when he had actually confirmed what I had said. I cannot figure out how Barb even enters this picture at all. Why do you keep bringing her into it, to make it appear we are conspirators? She said she wasn't there and has no idea what occurred there. ...and did not even know about Judyth for a 2-3 years later. She has no opinion on whether Judyth left or her own or was expelled. You are not going to force feed us into suddenly beliving things that we do not. We are all fully capable of making our own opinions.

Dixie

Fetzer..Yes I dispute you! Go back and re-read Post #529..or else post where I said what you are claiming. Stop making conflict that is not there.

Dixie

Sorry Monk, (Mink) that was not at all intentional I am an excellent speller, but a poor typist.

Dixie

Fetzer..read my first post again! I said exactly what transpired at Richs forum as related to JUdyth and Mink agreed with me on that. I did not make the claims you have just now accused me of. Just knock off your false accusations! Barb was not even on Rich's forum at that time and stated she wasn't and didn't know what had transpired. She says she didn't even get involved about Judyth until around 2004. I had been involved long before that.

Dixie

From Judyth to Dixie via Fetzer........what are you talking about? I didn't say anything that you didn't just say, in a different way. I am aware of the doings about your first book I have your words and then there is also Martins words (who was always one of your biggest supporters) ....I have no idea who is or isn't correct. What all Martin has to say, can be found at McAdams archives discussion group and I am not going to try and hunt it all down and don't want to repeat all that Martin had to say because I don't like to carry things from one forum to another. Others can look it up, if interested.

Citations! You would be surprised at what all I have accumulated, including the Timeline that you and Rich attermpted over some time. And do not pull that game on me that Barb and I are aligned to create havoc on you! I figure there is a good chance we would both tell each other (or anyone else for that matter) where to go if we even made such a suggestion to each other. In the first place, I hardly even know Barb and we do not run in the same circle at all....and even our JFK interests are in quite different areas, as far as I can tell. I can never figure out why it is thought some of us are too ignorant to be able to form our own opinions iwthout anyones help or being a part of some group. That is just some more of the psych. intimidation. I do not care what anyone else does or doesn't believe...none of my business. I only care what I think!! In addition, I have been known to change my views in some areas, through the years and have always said that if I should change my mind about your claims, I would freely admit it. However, when you just make up stuff..like saying Barb and I are involved on this together...that is also quite telling. I doubt that anyone except you and Fetzer would even think such things or make such accusations. Its true that I tend to write long messages, including most of my emails. I tend to forget it is just a simple email and think I am writing a book...but then you do the same thing. That is just the way we are!

I was hoping you would accept that I had nothing personal against you. I have mentioned before, that I have had clients who I also couldn't believe, but still I did like them very much. I really don't want to continue trying to antagonize each other!!!

Dixie

Jack....Judyth already did have her long awaited, first book published. In fact, it was in two volums, one of which contained all of her Endnotes....which were numerous. Harry Livingstone published it through a print to read company. Sometimes that is the only way to do so. I did obtain the copies, but then she stopped the publication, becaus eit did not turn out as she had hoped. There again, there are descrepencies as to her reason and with Martin Shacklefords reasons. So this upcoming book is actually her second book. There were numerous inconsistencies from her forum post claims and in her first book.

Dixie

Karl.......You just do not know what you are talking about! You are also out of line to tell me what I should or should not believe...just as I would not do so with you either. If you do believe her, that is just fine with me...but I have that same right. I did not say that I could or could not prove anything and just merely made a comment rather then to get into my past sort of critical comments. I had decided to not do that anymore. Yet, for your information, I have been involved in this for over a decade. I have been on several forums with her and have had forum discussions with her, have read many posts by her, through the years, Also, read some emails from her to mutual friends, I have viewed her Videos and I did read her book and have her current one pre-ordered. I am able to have an opinion of my own, just as you do. I have read many of your posts on this forum, that I have agreed with.

Barb....Just so you know...Greg and I did not have you in mind as that banished woman from Rich's forum. I knew it wasn't you, he had in mind. Also, as far as I know you are the only one that has actually done any sort of real fact-checking. Some claim to have done so, but apparently it was facts that we alreday knew or didn't question anyway. There are some points to her story, that we do believe. However, apparently some just do not want to believe your fact checking findings, so it is denied or worse comments are made. We apparently have attempts at psychological intimidation going on, to try and shut us down.

Now this is for Judyth....I have noithing at all against you personally. As you have mentioned many times, I have not actually met or spoken to you. Although, I would have not been adverse to doing so. In fact, many of those you have met and spoken to, have told me that you are a nice woman. Is is just most of your claims, that I have a problem with believing. You have stated that you are a Medical Scientist...well, I have been involved in Behavorial Science. I am most definitely not aligned with a neferous group out to silence you. I do my own thinking and always have. However, since you are now on another forum, in which I am also a member.....I don't know if you have noticed or not, but I have not made any comment whatsoever. I finally decided that you do indeed have a right to tell your story, without interference, especially from me. I am now wanting to be fair, whether I do or don't believe a lot of your claims. I have tried very hard to not make any specific, what you refer to as attacks, on these last few posts I wrote and as a result, Karl attacked me for not doing so....of course he doesn't realize that we go back a long ways. Irregardless of anything else, I am about peace and not war. I don't even have the gift of debating ability. For sure, I could never be like an Attorney....lol

Dixie

Greg...now that you mentioned year 2001 that she joined, I am now thinking you are correct about that. It was just that some of us had already heard about her in 2000 and had started discussing her there, before she ever joined. I am not trying to minimize my own part in attempting to bash her claims. I did not believe her then, and still don't. Yet, I feel we got too carried away.

I am also not very interested in such romance stories.....it all reminds me if those silly True Confessions Magazines, I use to read as a teenager....yet, I thought they were silly even then.

Yes, I do believe we are talking about the same woman that got banned, but not over Judyth.

Dixie

I recall things somewhat different too Jack. First of all, this was in year 2000. I don't believe that Judyth was banned at all. I think she quit that forum on her own because she got frustrated with all of us critics. But then who could blame her really? Also, Martin Shakleford was not a member there at that time. He had been a member long before I even joined that forum...a few years before and was long gone. As for Bob Vernon, I don't really recall him saying much about Judyth and he also just waked away from forums completely.

I don't recall Judyth ever being abusive...other things, but not abusive. It was more like we were abusive to her!

When she joined, some of us...especially you anddI hit at her right away. Then others joined in. So Rich ask us to withhold all our comments until she had a chance to tell her story...and we did keep quiet (for awhile). Rich and Terry M. was also going to help her with a Timeline. But after quite some

time, Rich decided ir just was not going to work out, so he dropped the project. That was when we then .started our criticisms again. ...and she finally just gave up and left there.

I am unable to recall any specifics in regard to the phone calls. I have much Judyth material, but it is on a different computer,stashed someplace. I just vaguely recall there was such a discussoon and controvery about it though. You may have that part correct though..just unsure.

As for the woman that Greg said was abusive and got banned, I can figure who it was, but thought she got banned over a different reason then about Judyth.

Dixie

Ed...

I appreciated your post very much. It seems to be the most honest apprasial of the Judyth claims, from a supporter, that I have read. You apparently did not just go with blind faith or just on her say-so, as I had previously believed. I had not intended to say anymore in this thread and had been considering even deleting my posts, since they have only created personal stress to me. I had not been aware that only her supporters were allowed to make their opinions. I have not changed my opinion, but haven't yet decided whether to delete or not. But you have indicated the problems with her claims...which are very real problems. And..whether any of it is actually true or not, some of us ( as for myself anyway) just can't accept much of it as being logical or realistic. ...and for various reasons. It is not at all that I am just a contrarian or trouble maker...and I do hope the truth will eventually be reconciled, no matter which way it goes.

I have ordered her new book...Me and Lee, but it keeps being postponed (just as your Dr Mary's Monkey was postponed for some time, which I also read). You have made a suggestion about having an open mind when reading her new book, because it will be more put together. So, I am going to follow your suggestion and am not going to try and pre-judge it. I did start with that in mind with her other book, but only became more convinced it was all imagination. However, I will give it this last fair attempt. If I should possibly change my current opinions, after reading it, I will be happy to admit I was wrong.

There is something that Jim Fetzer posted above...one of the emails he received....the bottom one, that has struck me. It hits on some areas that I have been studying off and on for a long time.....although unrelated to Judyth. I have only recently began to tie some things to possibly fitting in with Judyth's claims. I also feel there was possibly more then meets the eye, in the event that she is relating some truths..as she knows it to be. I came upon these thoughts, when looking into some claims made by a couple of people from long ago....also from the 60's era.

I have been unable to actually verify my thoughts on this couple yet ...just my own thoughts and findings so far. I am unable to say anymore about it at this time though. Yet, it is actually an attempt to try and reconcile my thought in regard to Judyth as well. If I am possibly right, then she has indeed been through hell. As that email person menrtioined there might possibly be things she is not actually aware of, that is creating all these problems for her. I could also, just be full of crap, but I am looking at it anyway.

Jim....I just finished reading A TERRIBLE MISTAKE, by H.P. Albarelli and really did enjoy reading it. So much information and also quite well written. I will be listening to his interview on your Real Deal, program too.

Dixie

HI Greg (Monk)....great to have you join this forum too. We are in disagreement on this thread....but as you know we are not in disagrement about many other things.

Jack....Judyth has been discussed here on this forum many times, including when Judyth was here posting for herself. I even had some exchanges here with her. You probably just forgot about it., since it was a few years ago and after she left Richs forum.

Dixie

Jim......I know that you are not going to believe things said against Judyth, unless you are able to see and find out for yourself......and that is actually how it should be. I am the same way about some JFK research areas. But still we can all relate our own beliefs as well as discoveries, to each other I do have to say that it is a big mystery as to why you are getting threats now....or why Judyth gets threats. Although I do know that she has deleted a lot of her own stuff herself. I have believed that was in order to not have anything showing of past claims, when she makes up new claims.

There might also be an orchestrated challenge to shut her up...yet I have not seen that. She has named McAdams and Von Pein...although it is not Von Pein, it is David Reitzes. But....from what I have followed with them, is that they simply do not believe her, just as I and many others don't either. I have not found any wrong info from them, as she claims. Although it is easy to make some errors...just as Jack said above about Marcello paying for their "afternoon delight" hotel rooms. It was actually Clay Shaw that she claims paid for their rooms, because he felt sorry for them....lol So some errors are not actually agenda driven....just simply errors. On the other hand, she changes things so much, that some things are hard to keep up with....so at one time she might have said Marcello paid for the hotel tooms. She did say that Marcello paid for all their restaurant tabs.

She was suppose to meet Lee in Cancun, if he was able to make it out of Dallas, after the assn.Then when she found out there was no Cancun at that time...she blamed a past agent for saying that it was Cancun. But then it became Merida and then Cozumel and then Maya area of Chichen Itza and eventually it became Belize. For the sake of any argument..there was a Cancun from long ago, but it was not habitable, until the resort came along. She also made a claim that a movie was being made "in the area" which they wanted to go see, because it was in a lush tropical paradise that DeMohrenshieldt had told Lee about. The movie was "The Night of the Iguana". It was being filmed, but certainly not in that area. It was filmed at Bandera Bay, at Puerto Vallarto. A look at a map, certainly rules out that claim for sure!

As to Lee being a great shot....as mentioned above, I found a reference to such, five times in her book.One that I am able to specifically recall, at the moment is that they saw a carnival in a park and wanted to go into it, but it was still closed. So...Lee bribed them to let them go in (how he bribed, them she didn't say...but unlikley anyway!) Then they were able to play all the arcades and they were the only ones in there. Lee was such a good shot that he was able to win her a bunch of stuffed animals. Then she tells how great a shot he really was and how he had to hide it when in the Marines. But why would he need to cover that up, during his Marine Days...makes no sense.She also claimed that Lee had all sorts of weapons that he kept stashed in Bannisters offices area. Also not very likely!.

One thing I have also been aware of for years...when ever she can, she gets someone else to do her writing for her. Then she will send it around to see how it will go over. When descrepencies are found, she can then claim she didn't write it and she was taken out of context or her words were changed etc. I have seen this occur many times. She even had Rich DellaRosa helping her out, until he got sick of her methodology.

In her writing on your blog, she mentions a couple that she has previously made claims, kept her hostage and she had to escape from them...but they kept things.

Also previously she clamed they were involved some way with the mafia and were involved in making internet porno. On your blog the porno bit has morphed into being a NATO sniper (whatever that is).

Her attempt to gain political asylum in Sweden was actually turned down and she had very little time to leave the country. But then, she appealed the decision, which I believe actually did take around 10 months...it was provisional. But during that time, her needs were taken care of. But then, she was turned down again and was going to have to leave, but by that time she supposedly had a job in another country and left on her own. But she did not have actual political asylum. Looking at the Sweden website, it is very hard to get asylum there....and they will send you back to your own country, if turned down. That could also be why she might have obtained a job in another country and left on her own.

This is all only a small tip of this iceberg and there is so much more. I have no idea why anyone would be after her or trying to shut her down or keeping her away from here and living in exile. I do suspect some of it is only her fantasy or mental condition. But then on the other hand, something does appear to be happening...but then who would even care? Many have made certain claims during the past and most have just been disregarded. How could she actually be a threat to anyone, just by making claims? But again, something must be happening, for some reason. ...that baffles me. As for the CIA wanting to shut her up or threaten her...again why? All they need to do is just sit back and watch us all debate the Judyth claims, every few months. I don't see her as being any real concern to them. .

One of her so-called forced car wrecks resulting in a concussion...was actually from a fall she took in her own home. This occurred at the time she was still a member of Richs forum. Of course we were all sympathetic and Wim Dankbaar kept us posted, through her son. I don't know if Jack still recalls this or not. But it later became another suspicious car accident and concussion.

If some portions of her claims might possibly be true...then this is a part that has always angered me and I am just hoping it isn't true. Lee was able to wine, dine and bed her in elegant style. According to her, he also would buy her a few grocery items sometimes and buy little trinkets for her. At the same time, he penny pinched with Marina. But then Marina was PG and started not feeling well. He took her to a free clinic, but they were turned down because they hadn't been N.O. residents long enough. So, he wouldn't take her to see a regular doctor. He didn't want to pay for it. She never saw a doctor until she later left for Dallas, with Ruth Paine. By the way she also claimed they broke three chairs in that grand hotel room by their "activities." And....the first time they went to the hotel, Lee ask her to marry him, from all over the room.....even from under the bed. Then when she crawled into bed, he ask her for the 100th time and she then said yes! Does this really pass anyones smell test?

There is a photo of three women in front of the Trade Mart, when Lee was passing out flyers. One of the women, she had claimed was her! You can only see the womans back, but she looked to be rather young....she also claimed to still have that same dress (yeau sure!!) Then some happens to know who those women were. Two were sisters. But then, to our great surprise, in her book she named another of the women as being her. It looks nothing like her and the woman has a poochy stomach, and actually might be PG. But that didn't faze her....she claimed she sometimes gets a poochy tummy because of a surgery she had when she was a child. When that was commented on, she claimed she had never said the first woman was her...but she did so and we all knew it, including her strongest supporter.

I mentioned in an above post that I have had past clients that told some good fantasy stories and I felt they actually believed them. Well, one of my own sisters, is a very nice woman and also teaches creative writing at the University level and has been an Editor of various magazines.She is somewhat younger then me and she can recall things from our growing up years that never happened. Yet she is not the type to just be outright lying. But some of her claims just baffles my other three sisters and I. Perhaps being a writer, just as Judyth is...has a hand in one being creative and imaginative and taken to extreme,.. I just don't know.

Regards

Dixie

Thanks Jim! I do realize that you have a relatively new friendship with Judyth and I have also heard she can be quite pursuasive....so I can understand that you want to believe her. And so far, you probably have no reason not to believe her. But, I have had past clients that would tell me great fantasy stories and I would feel they actually even believed what they were telling me. ..just as I feel about Judyth. There are just too many changes in her claims to even recall them all. There are many of them in her current writing on your blog. I am thinking your mind will be open more now and I feel you will admit it, if you do begin to see descrepencies...although you might not change your mind at all...and she does have some supporters. When I got her first book, I decided to just "try" to have an open mind, even though I had not believed her from the first day I ever heard about her, from an article at Salon.com. It just didn't pass the smell test to me! However, at some point as I was reading her book, It occurred to me that if any part of her claims were true (other then what we do know is true), then it would be impossible to know what parts of anything might even be possibly be true. Just too much frantasy involved.

Take Care

Dixie

Barb, of course I knew about your fact-checking discoveries, but didn't want to speak for you. Yet Judyth has a great ability to be able to change her claims to fit the discoveries. We also saw that too. But then she will deny it was ever any different. If she had written her book as a work of fiction, it might have been a good book.....although I can see why she didn't want to write it that way. She does seem quite imaginative. I did pre-order her new book from Amazon, some time ago and it has been delayed several times. It was due again this month, but no sign of it yet. I wasn't sure I was going to order it, but then I did so. I suppose after all these years of following her saga, I just want to see what is next. I have nothing at all personal against her and she is also aware that I do not believe her. But I do not wish her any harm either. She just needs to come back to the US and get some help that she desparetly needs and live as a human being, rather then have all those chotic dramatics, which I believe are also mostly self induced fantasies.

Dixie

Count me in with Bill Kelly. After near 12 years of following her saga, being on all the forums wih her as well as reading her rediculous book.....no, I do not believe anything she claims! You just have no idea how many changes her story has made. Even that blog has numerous changes from her previous claims. I could go on and on about her fantasies, but I have already done it so many times through the years, that it is just boring to me now. The only truth that I have been able to find is that she was a good science student and that she did work at Riley Coffee, when LHO also was working there. Sympathy and pity just won't cut it, when you begin to look at her claims both realistically and logically. Plus she wants so much to exonerate LHO....then why did she keep emphasising, in her book, that he was a very good shot (I found it in there five times) and that he pretended to be a poor shot when in the Marines. She also had them both knowing ahead about the JFK Assn. Does anyone actually know anyone that has lived such a chaotic life, as sh eis claiming.....not likely!

And Tosh....I am not including you in with this af all...a separate issue and separate person!

Dixie

Well Jack, my #171 post above is about the Hesters, which I was trying to bring back. But I have no idea how to bring that Wegnmen photo you had posted in that other thread here, to this thread.

DiXIe

On Page 3, in the thread called "Impeaching Altgens 8" on the first page... in post #8...about midway down the page....Jack attached the Altgens 8 photo and right under it, a small Wegman photo, showing what does look to be the Hesters, still on the ground. Sorry, for the round about way..but I have no idea how to bring it to this thread.

Dixie

Jack...Earlier, in this same thread in Post 49, I told some things about the Hesters and mentioned then that I never could believe that was actually the Hesters in

A-8, but I don't think anyone read it. Then I brought it up again and that time you did respond. But I have no idea who the A-8 couple might be. I have been quite interested in the Hesters, but there is just not much info about them. Still I am interested.

Dixie

Beatrice Hester said that she was very upset, so they went straight to their car, which I believe was parked behind the Pergola. ...and they left. But since everyone has believed it was Beatrice fixing to cross the street to the Dal Tex, with Sitzman..it conflicted. But now, maybe her and Charles did go to their car as she said. But who could this other couple be and what happened to the man that was on the ground with her? I had never felt this was the same couple, but then what do I know...lol

Dixie

The Altgens 8 photo is one that I am not so sure is actually showing the Hesters. My reason is that it does not look like the two piece outfit that Beatrice Hester was wearing, in that pre-motorcade Zap photo. The one on the ground has a lower collar line plus looks younger then the Zap photo and Charles Hester also looks younger. There is another photo of them on the ground that does look like them though. Were there possibly two couples on the ground, back near the pergola?

Dixie

This is probably an inappropriate comment for this thread, but everytime I see the above photos, they make no sense to me. ...so I wanted to make a comment, while the photos are posted. But.... No one is looking at JFK and Jackie!! They are all looking at Greer and Kellerman. Even the woman with her arm up, is not looking at JFK and Jackie. In an above larger photo, one woman might be looking at them, but a woman next to her is even looking behind the Limo. Is it just me that finds this to be very odd?

Dixie

Todd said this........

Jack,

I said I wrote up the “experience”…my experience. I never said I wrote up the “experiment” .

Good God your reading comprehension is bad!

What was I doing there? You guys posted the fact that you were doing the experiment ahead of time on the DellaRossa Forum including the date and time you were going to be and invited anyone to attend. That day happened to be the last day of a week-long trip I had already planned to be taking so I made it a point to show up. As I recall a few others from the DellaRossa Forum showed up as well, one by the name of Tony Cummings (sp?)

Good God your memory is bad!

Todd

I didn't want to get into this or any other alteration vs non-alteration discussion. My JFK areas of study are in different areas. I also think a lot of both Jack and Fetzer, although don't always agree with them or anyone else for that matter. On the other hand I have nothing against Todd either.... even though I am a CT. However...."right is right" and I feel compelled to make a reply. I just read all these controversial threads and for the most part don't actually comprehened them.

I have been a fence sitter on the alteration controversy....but am becoming more inclined to believe skulldgerry did occur.

However, what I posted above by Todd, is exactly as I also recall. I was also a member of DellaRosa's forum at that time and do recall the discussions regarding that Moorman in the Street Study. It was neither secret nor private and had been fully pre-discussed on the forum. Also there were a few LNs also on that forum and they were also invited to the study at DP that day...as well as the Josiah group. As it turned out, Todd was the only one of either group that did show up.

I do not know what all occurred at DP on that day, only what was later discussed on that forum. I did get the impression that Todd had been treated a bit shabby although Have no idea if Jack had previously met him or not. In fact, on the forum, Jim Fetzer kept making bad remarks as to Todd being there. That just did not hit me right and (then) just as now, I had to speak up for Todd. I don't recall my exact words or even if Todd recalls that I did so.....I mentioned that he had been invited and that after all, he was the only one that actually did show up. although he did thank me. With that...the discussion ended.

But before anyone starts getting all carried away....I don't blieve for a minute that Jack is fibbing. I belive it to be one of a faulty memory, as we all have from time to time!

Dixie

Andy...Bernice is right that many of us agree with you! I feel that Peter is doing a good job as a Mod. Many times I have seen him attempt to bring some peace to a chaotic thread.

Dixie

Oh...you are right Mark and thanks for re-jogging my memory. I made an error when it was actually around 1:00 when JFK died and another 35 minutes before an official announcement was made. But as you also mentioned there was much unconfirmed speculation before the announcement. So, Tippit could not have known by the time time he was also shot. So, it just doesn't appear that Oswald knew either.

Dixie

Something that I have often wondered about........How and when did Oswald learn that JFK had actually died? JFK was shot at 12:30 and pronounced dead at around 1:00. Oswald was arrested at the Texas Theater around 1:45. Yet up to that time, if Oswald was not outside the TSBD, he didn't even see JFK being shot....so couldn't have known the impact of the shots, even though he did hear about it from other employees. Then shortly after that, he left the TSBD apparently on the run or even just thinking the work woiuld be shut down for the rest of the day. JFK had not died at the time Oswald was on the bus, riding a cab or at his boarding house....so couldn't yet have heard it on the TV and Earlene Roberts also hadn't heard JFK had died yet. Then he was appparently on the run again and no radio or contacts to inform him that JFK had died, before he got to the theater and was arrested. Then he probably found out when he reached the DPD. It would seem to me, that possibly the only way he could have found out ,was if he did see Tippit and he told him. Tippit was shot from 1:05 to 1:16.... which is controversial regarding the time. .So, even at 1:05, Tippit might have just heard the news on his radio.

I do not believe Oswald shot Tippit...although I have often changed my opinion in that regard. I believe he was set up...but still I don't see any other way Oswald could have known, that is, even if he did know before his arrest.....which I am not so sure he did know. I don't feel that he could have just assumed JFK was going to die....not really knowing how bad the shots were.

Dixie