Dixie Dea

Tom Scully........Thanks for your info in regard to Virgina Hale, at the Dallas Emp Comm., who sent Oswald to Leslie Welding Co. That part I did know, but I had never connected her to also being IB Hale's wife. ...and the mother of the twins, Billy and Tommy Hale. But, I did know about the Exner apartment break-in being possibly connnected to these twins. I am sure you are probably aware that Billy was married to Gov Connelly's daughter, Kathleen, when both were quite young. Kathleen died under a quite mysterous and suspicious shot-gun discharge, that was called self-inflicted.....with Billy sitting right there at the time. Years later Billy became regarded as Papa Pilgrim, who had 15 children. In later years he was arrested and charged and imprisonned for criimes against his oldest daugthter. ...of kidnapping, beating her to a pulp and incest. He died in prison several months ago. This is all for a different thread topic though.

Back to Don's thread and my replies......

I'd like to know if you:

- Believe Oswald fired any shots...............No

- Believe Oswald killed Tippit....................No I use to feel that he might have, But now I don't believe we have been told hardly any of the truth of the Tippit shooting. Plus, I really can't find any justification for him to have shot Tippit.

- Believe the single bullet theory is possible......No

- Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions.........Yes

- Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas..........Inaction, on their part. Although I do consider they may have possibly been given some reason for that. I also consider a very few might have been involved and ohers that something was going to occur and yet others had no idea. But this all could have created some confusion between them. I do feel that some were involved.

- Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved......Most likely! However, it is hard to know just who was involved in what aspect and to what extent. The Conspiracy, the Implementation or in the coverup afterwards. But I now believe (I have changed my mind a few times) that it was the far right fascist related regime of the Military Industrial Complex and the far right of the Military Some in high places were aware of it, but just shut their eyes and let it happen, for their own purposes.

I'll get things started by saying that I think Oswald fired no weapons that day. I tend to agree with Jim Garrison that he was some sort of intelligence operative, who was assigned at the time of the assassination to infiltrate a group he was told was planning on murdering JFK. I don't think Oswald killed Tippit. I think the single bullet theory is scientifically impossible. I think shots were fired from at least two directions (at least one rear location and one front location). I think the Secret Service failed miserably on the day of the assassination, and I can't accept that their failure was due merely to incompetence. I think Greer, Kellerman and Emory Roberts, at the very least, had prior knowledge of the assassination. I think LBJ and other high public officials (Hoover, McGeorge Bundy, among others) were active participants in the conspiracy and coverup.

In short, I think there was a massive conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy and coverup the crime afterwards. I think the most powerful forces in our society at that time were involved.

So, what's your take? For once, let's hear everyone's opinion without referencing the perceived shortcomings of other posters. Where do you stand?

--------------------

Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9291

I have some notes in regards to the Hesters, that I am unable to access at this time. So, I will try and remember a few things. Beatrice Hester worked at Jennifer Juniors, in the office. I am thinking that she was a Payroll Clerk. During the lunch time, she went shopping in the area.....then when it was decided that Zap and Sitz were going over to the DP area, Sitz went looking for Beatrice to go with them. So they walked over there. I don't know how or why Charles happened to also be over there though. I had thought that was strange! Could be that Beatrice called him to join them on his lunch time too. \\\\

I have heard two versions of Charles...one that he worked for a Newspaper and another that he owned a Photo Studio, where he took Portraits, Wedding Photos etc. I did find a Photo Studio that was owned by a Charles Hester, but wasn't really sure if the same person or not.

In the photos of Beatrice sitting on the bench...the one showing only her back, with that sparkplug, it looks from the back, to be a younger woman and a different hairdo, then the one that does show her face. ....although her clothing looks the same. Plus, I do have a problem with the couple on the grass, being the Hesters. This does appear to be a younger couple then the Hesters and the outfit the woman is wearing, doesn't look like the one Beatrice was wearing.....even though it has always been believed it is them. They did say they were on the ground though.

There is also a descrepency in what Beatrice claimed and what we see in photos. That one photo shows her and Sitz walking back to the Dal Tex, fixing to cross the street in front of the TSBD. Yet she claimed that she was so upset, that they headed back to their car and immediately left the area!! Othere things they both claimed, is not seen.

The Hesters seems to have escaped the notice of anyone, other then their first claims as shown in the above posts. I have wondered if perhaps Charles did see something when he looked out that pergola opening. Plus if Charles was a photographer, we could think of other reasons he may have been there. Especially since

Zap and Sitz even going over there was more or less a last minte plan....or was it really?

Dixie

Triplicate Posts

Triplicate posts

Kathy...I will also be thinking of you and Wish for you to keep the faith. ....and try to do what is suggested for you too.

Dixie

Bernice

Thanks a bunch for posting that FBI Doc. in regard to Essie Williams. I am pleased to finally read it.

Ray....

You are right, in that we really don't know what Essie said, since it was not her direct words...only what the FBI claimed she said. But it does appear that she didn't lie and attempt to just agree with Wesley and Linnie, to help them out/ ....if she didn't actually see LHO carrying a bag.

Thanks!

Dixie

Denis.....

Misquting tesrtimony? Why be so insulting??? Even thouggh, I posted this four years ago, no one has

mentioned finding Essie's testimony.

.

I was only qyoting what I have read in several JFK books...and not from my own made-up words. In fact, I also specifically mentioned that I had not been able to find Essie's testimony to verify it. I had searched for it, for some time, even before the MFF site ever came along.. I had no idea it was now at her website, since I am unable to ever access that website. So, I am still only able to accept what ypu say and not from reading her testimony with my own eyes.

Your apparently correct info, is actually welcomn to me, after tryimg to find it for so long and to finally read what she evidently did actually say. For that part, I do appreciate your help. But your own misleading inferences against me is not necessary and is unwelcome

Dixie

Good work Bill. Thanks for posting it. It gives me even more to think about!

Dixie

I am also wondering about this Thomas Moseley (also Mosley). I have tried to find out about him for some time and there seems to be conflicting info about exactly what he was. However, I never found anything at all that mentions a wife or a family or that he was a Pilot or anything about a plane crash.

So....I am thanking this is a different Thomas Moseley, then the one that both Bill and I seem to be most familiar with...as the Chicago City bus driver.

It has been claimed that the bus driver Moseley, was an infiltrator/informant. Yet other accounts says he was a Fed ATF Agent. Other accounts says he was on the Chicago Police Force as an under cover cop.

Moseley told Echeveria that he had been in prison for gun-running. Whether that was true or just a cover, I don't really know. At one time he also went by the name of Art Rickover and also known as, Blackfoot.

I have been unable to find any more info about him after his dealings with Minuteman Richard Lauchli, I believe in 1964, and Lauchli's Entrapment charges, against him....in which Lauchli lost the case. He was also charged with Entrapment in the Andrew Georgiou case, that had to do with a Counterfeiting operation. (State vs. Goergilu) and in addition was an informant on a Brinks Truck Robbery case.

There seems to have been several connected Chicago City Bus Drivers...including Homer Etheveria. and Ralph Meyers and another person that I don't recall at the moment....but I believe that Bill has mentioned him before.

Another account says that Moseley also had a Towing Service.

So, I have wondered what happened to Moseley and exactly what he was. Hoover had all of the Chicago JFK threat records confiscated and most have never seen the light of day.

So...this Thomas Moseley is most likely a different person then from the one John Simkins has mentioned. Although, it is also possible that I just never ran across what he has posted. Hopefully John will get an email reply.

Some Moseley Info.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/3...5586.15587.html

Dixie

John B....

In your initial post above, you stated the followinng....."

"Why did Ruth Paine introduce Lee Harvey Oswald to Dr. H. Warner Kloepfer, PhD at Tulane University in New Orleans?"

Why do you believe that Ruth Paine introduced Dr Kloepfer to Oswald....or for that matter, that she even knew him? Or even that he didn't already know him?

I have had an interest along the lines,

of this thread, for quite some time. particularly in regard to .Dr. Koepfer as well as his genetic studies. I have also been aware that areas of Eugenics seemed to be going on all around Oswald....in addition to his seeming involvement with the Universalists and the Quaker groups

I also feel that the INCA group plays into this. Both Dr. Kloepfer and one of his daughters (Ruth Ann), were also members of the INCA group. Ii is quite posisble that Oswald was an infiltrator within these groups. or he could also have been involved in some sort of Eugenics study or experiment....just some thoughts I have had.

In George Michael Evica's book, "A Certain Arrogance," he stated that the Osborne's, from the Pioneer Foundation, vouched for both Michael and Ruth Paine. However, I am unable to lay my hands on my book at the moment and am trying to go by memory, so I am thinking it was the Osborne's that he mentioned...but I do not really recall who they vouched for them to, or even the reason. Yet, I do recall that I wondered why they might have felt a need to do so and how they might actually have known anything about the Paines. Just more to consider in regard to the Painss though!

However, back to Ruth introducing Oswald to Dr Kloepfer. I have read nothing that makes me feel that is true.

The story is that Ruth contacted a Quaker group in N.O. to request that they send someone over to befriend Marina, because she was lonely, with no one to talk to. Finally, on the evening before Ruith and Marina were to leave for Dallas, someone did show up to visit with Marina. This turned out to be Mrs Kloepfer (Ruth) and at least one of her daughters. This daughter, had studsed at the Univ of Moscow, and was also able to speak Russian. I am unsure if this was Ruth Ann (the INCA activist) or not. (Same name as her mother). But, she and Oswald seemed to really hit it off and had a lot to discuss. I have also noticed that it has been greatly minimized that this was Dr. Kloepfer's family..and that makes me wonder why!!

In addition, apparently Dr. Kloepfer's phone number was found in Oswalds notebook. But. Dr. Kloepfer,denied ever meeting him or that he even knew him. I did feel it was rather strange that Oswald would write Dr. Kloepfer's name in his notebook, rather then either his wife or especialy his daughter.....that is, unless he might have actually had some involvement with him.

I do realize this is quite a leap on my part, yet I have always had a strange suspicion that LHO might have been a twin. Of course, Dr, Kloefper was involved in the study of twins, but there are many instances where a twin might come into play and actually might even help to explain many mysteries in regard to LHO. Have you ever ran acros anything that might even hint at such a possibility?

Just some thoughts I have had, which you may or may not want to comment on.

Dixie

Pamela

If you send me an email, you no longer own it...I do. I am free to share it with thers or not. If you ask me not to to share it with anyone, then I wold be obliged to honor your request. Otherwise, I could share it or not, as my own conscience tellsme. But in the case of Nick's emails to you, he did cc them to others, like Doug. In that case Doug, owned then just as you did. As Bernice mentioned, once an email writer dies, there is no furthewr obligatioton honor a silence request.

And also...at the time Bernice posted temails, you actyually even thanked her, because yiurs had been lost ia PC crash. Now suddenly, it is a big and erroneous issue with you, yet nothing has changed, other then you want to create trouble that doesn't even exist.

Dixie

.

Pamela thanks for posting that CC article, I ad never read it before!

Also Bernice has been a member of this forum for a very long time and is well known here...most anyone here, would know she would not be guilty of what you have accused her of doing. Primarily for your information, since you chose to bring that current McAdams broo-haw here too I have re-posted what I just posted at McAdams. Hopefully this will settle the matter and the erroneous speculating will cease about Bernice, both at McAdams and here now too. I do realize it had to do with the fact that no one actually knew the true facts.

Dixie

_________________________________________________

Attention to all who are involved with the subject of Nick's emails specifically as it relates to Bernice. First of all, the discussion of Nicks email is not any part of my own interest or research. I am merely just a reader of what all is being discussed.. I did of course read Nick's emails, when Bernice posted them with permission,at Simkin's forum some time ago.. Secondly, I am quite close to her and I know for a fact that she would never post anything from anyone, without theiir permission to do so. She even gets upset when others do so or when they crib and repost elsewhere without her or whomever's permission.

Thirdly, Bernice is a real stickler for docuentation. Yet with these Nick emails she only gave the message and was not the messenger or the Principe researcher.

Bernice was not acquainted at all with Nick and he did not cc his emails to Pamela, to her

I also know for a fact that Bernice joined Rich's forum sometime after I did and I had not joined until sometime after Barb and some others had already left there, for whatever reason.

Way to much emphasis has been placed on Bernice in this entire matter. She merely posted Nick's amails, which Doug Weldon had sent to her with his permission, (which I would not have revealed, if Rich hadn't already done so). I only know she would never have done so, without his o.k. Yes, she does post things given to her, but again never without their prior permission! In addition she will always gives the person credit....unless the person wishes to remain anonymous.

The difference here as I see it, is between Richs recall and the information in Nick's email, provided to her by Doug Weldon. And....it is a fact, that Bernice works alone and is beholden to no one about anything whatsoever. In that way, we are both alike. She is not supportive of anyone about anything, unless she has also studied the info herself and happens to agree with it...and that goes for no matter if it is Rich, Simkin, Fetzer or McAdams. or whoever it might be. So she is as apt to disagree with them, as to do so.

She also has her own tremendous archive created by her own efforts. She has been willing to share generously with others what she has researched. She has been quite generous in sharing her studies with members at Rich's forum as well as Simkins forum and also other forums. She does not believe in hoarding her information. As a member of several foruns (just as I am) she is not actually aligned permanently with anyone.

She and I are regarded as supportive of each other, yet we don't always agree on some things either.Plus we don't have the same areas of research interest. She does her own work and most definitely is adamant about thinking for herself. Rich did name her as the forum archivist....but that is a bit misleading. She is not archiving only some posted forum info, she archives her own work or work that others have shared with her and given her permission to use..as well as printed information, such as from books, and

archives..and as I already stated she shares her work generously...as well as helping newcomers with their questions or with additioal information.

All that I personally know about Nick's emialls is what I have read from her posts And, I am in agreement with all of you, on what they do say. I did ask Bernice if she was a member at Rich's at the time both Nick and Pamela were also members and she isn't sure..she joined in Nov.2000

but was not able to access often till early 2001. She says that if so, she was very new and she does recall some sort of big arguments going on, but didn't really understand what it was all about or who they were. Although she does recall Nick's information later on and after she believes he may have died, but Pamela was gone by that time.

So, to make Bernice the culprit in all this mess is just wrong, when she did nothing whatsoever wrong, except post those emails at Simkins and with permission. There is no way whatsoever that she would have any involvement with anything such as forgery...and I also do not believe they were forged at all. I believe they were posted intact, just as Pamela had also received them. Except in decency and not pertinent anyway, she did remove the addresses when she posted them.

And I also want to add that no one played Pamela in regard to Nick, as she is now imagining. Pamela had every right to contact Nick or for him to also contact her, which ever way it was. It is perhaps her interviewing skills and accusatiions to Nick, that are perhaps questionable. Although of course, I don't actually know if that is a fact either, except that it has been mentioned on here.

One last thing...Bernice did not ask me to post this message and will probably not approve that I did so....it is just that I can't stand to see a good person and good researcher be so maligned here, when there is so much erroneous speculation being stated and the facts are not really even known. I also want to add that neither of us works with the "group mindset" of any forum. We just agree or maybe disagree from our own studies. I do hope this will now clairfy the aspects regarding Bernice. .....and that she only posted those emails from Nick, with Dougs knowledge and that was all there was to it..... period._________________________________________________

Dixie

Bill...

That was a good article. I compiled, from several sourxes, a series of Papa Pilgrim (Bobby Hale) articles and posted them on another forum, a few months ago. However, I could never find anything about Billy Hale, other then what Hersch claimed about them.....and nothing at all about Tommy Hale. So,o was very pleased that you did. My articles includes about Papa's arrest and his trial and the kids testimonies and about his dying in prison a few months ago. If anyone would like to read it all, just let me know and I will direct you to the articles. In addition, I had included one from John Connelly's book (In Hiistory's Shadow which inclures about his daughter Kathleen and Bobby Hale. I am posting it below...it is rather distressing!

_________________________________________________\

Jathleen Connelly

Information from "In History's Shadow"

by John Connally.1993

pages: 154-159.

In 1957 Kathleen was 16, beautiful, intelligent, and popular. She had been somewhat head strong, bright, but never difficult, but towards the end of the year her parents, Nellie and John Connally, had begun to notice subtle changes.

She died in the living room of a tiny apartment she had rented alone with a boy she had married and carrying his child.

Nellie and John Connally had found out about her possible condition through a phone call from the school, and during a meeting with her teacher who informed them, that she thought Kathleen was pregnant.

After returning home, they confronted Kathleen who assured them she had a virus, nothing else---and was certainly not pregnant.

A few days later Nellie and John, who was working as legal counsel and advisor to Sid Richardson and his nephew Perry Bass, and spending much time traveling between Fort Worth and Washington.

Had barely arrived in Washington when they received a phone call, from home that Kathleen was in hospital, they immediately flew back to Fort Worth only to find that she had checked out. They were told she had been admitted after hyperventilating, the records show a puzzling description: she apparently had been rolling around over and over in the grass. Her clothes were covered in burrs and grass stains, and they had no information of where she was.

It soon became clear that she had been taken in by the family of Bobby Hale, her boyfriend. They again confronted her as gently as they could, with concern and not anger. That there was nothing that was so wrong that they could not help her, and begged for her to tell them what was wrong. They asked again if she was pregnant, but again she denied such.

After arriving at their home, John then called Bobby and asked him to come to their home. Bobby was 18, a senior, a star of the football team. His father was I.B Hale who had been a Hall of Fame linebacker at Texas Christian Univ. in the 30s, and was chief of security at General Dynamics in Fort Worth.

They spoke to the young people, separately, and both continued to deny that anything was wrong. They confronted them together, and asked Bobby if Kathleen was "in trouble" but they continued to get the same answer. But it was certain something wasn't right. Nellie and John were frustrated and close to loosing their patience and temper, and during the next few weeks, they continued to talk to Kathleen without being oppressive, or demanding, and they were perplexed.

They offered continually to help, to share the pressure she was under ,that was so apparent, but she would not share the secret she felt she had to keep.

They had told her they did not want her going out at night , but she did, and they awaited one night till she came home at midnight .By this time John was furious, and more frustrated the longer this continued.

He was angry with her, and accused her and Bobby of lying to them, she repeatedly again stated nothing was wrong. And then he slapped her, and "Even as I did, I wished I hadn't. A thousand times since—maybe more--I have wanted to call back my hand. She was silent and "the slap echoed in my ear". She turned and went to her room.That was late in 58.

John had left for Washington on business, and he had told Kathleen that he wanted to talk to her upon his return the next day. That night she loaded her clothes into the family station wagon, while Nellie pleaded and cajoled and raged and all to no avail. She drove off with her Mother begging her to stay.

She had been an open, sweet child, a daughter to be envied by anyone who raised a daughter, and watched her bloom. She had never before caused them any problems or concerns. But suddenly a wall had gone up between them and it could not be penetrated, she was almost defiant in her continual statements that nothing was wrong. John and Nellie had no control and no way to help.

Nellie called the police and gave them the license number; she had called John and continued to wait for his plane to arrive, at 3am he did so, as Bobby was missing as well.

They had dated almost from when they first met; they liked him as everyone seemed to. They then learned they had eloped, driving to Ardmore, Oklahoma, and married by a justice of the peace.

Their first information being from a letter received from Tallahassee, Florida from "K.K" as they called her. They had taken a small apartment, and Bobby had taken a job at a shipyard for seventy dollars a week.

I.B Hale and John then drove to the apartment, leaving their wives behind with other children, to see if they could persuade them to come home. They were living in two rooms which he described as grim. Reconciliations are often more emotional than the disagreements that caused them and they asked that they come back home and finish their high school and suggested they live apart until, they did not want them to divorce, and would help support them. Kathleen seem glad to see him, nervous but with lots of hugs and kisses, and relieved.

They did not want them to be living in hardship but they indicated that they wanted to stay in Tallahassee awhile longer, they would think about coming home in the fall. John gave them several hundreds of dollars and told them to find a better apartment.

She seemed determined to show all that they had not made a mistake, and had taken a job in a five-and-dime store.

Before they left John spoke to the landlady who owned the boarding house, and what she said did trouble him. She said she thought Kathleen was afraid—but of what she did not know. That she had seen her slip into the station wagon at night alone listening to the radio. That she was not tuned into rock and roll, she would be listening to Oral Roberts preach.

John thought her immature mind was in turmoil, perhaps from guilt that what she had done was wrong ,that she had disappeared from her family, but that she would make it turn out right…Both fathers spent the day with them, and even checked on the shipyard where Bobby worked. Then they pointed the car West and headed home.

They knew the truth now, Kathleen was expecting a child. They had offered their help and protection and beyond that they didn't know what to do or say. They had no high hopes for the marriage but did not want it to fail. The landlady had told him there were spats, and young-lover quarrels, which were expected.

The Connallys still had, at the time he wrote his book in 93, a sense of disbelief at how quickly the events moved. Two or three weeks later, on the morning of April 28,1958, John was sitting at his desk when he received a phone call from the sheriff of Tallahassee, and speaking somewhat clumsily he said, " Mr. Connally, your daughter has been shot in the head."

John said, "My God, How bad is she?" He replied "Couldn't be worse. Half her head was blown away". There was no good way, no easy way to deliver such a message. John could not fault him for insensitivity. He hung up the phone, feeling shock as almost a type of seizure.

He stumbled into Sid Richardson's office and told him about the call, askimg if he could borrow one of the corporations planes so Nellie and he could fly down. Sid immediately made the arrangements and called Ed Armstrong and told him to prepare a DC-3.

Then he went home to tell Nellie, news that a man never expects to tell his wife that their first born was dead. They held each other and wept.

Somewhere in that time it occurred to him that the sheriff had not said Kathleen was dead. But he knew she was. They made the trip on auto-pilot the passengers not the plane. Upon arrival they drove straight to the funeral home, Bobby was there.

The story he told was jumbled and almost uncoherent. He said they had quarreled, Kathleen had walked out, he had gone looking for her but did not find her, and that when he had returned to the apartment she was sitting in a chair with his loaded shotgun pointed at her head, with her finger on the trigger.

At the coroner's inquest he said that she told him, "Bobby, I am sick in my mind and I need help, I know now that no one can help me." He said he tried to talk to her into putting the gun down, but she kept threatening to use it. He grab for it, he said, and the gun went off." "

"Exactly what happened in that room, what was said, and what was done, we will never be completely sure.""

A deputy in the sheriff's office told them there may have been a suicide pact and Bobby back out. That was one of the stories, the speculations. The inquest was held the next day but obviously no amount of testimony could show clearly what had occurred. John was one of the witnesses and asked to testify on Kathleen's state of mind, to him it was all immaterial, as she was gone, and nothing could revive her, whatever blame fault or innocence might have been attached to anyone else, was of no consequence in his mind. It all passed like a bad dream. He only wanted it to end, he was ridden with regret that the two of them could not confide in them.

And he could not shake his doubts that his Kathleen, would never have taken her own life, if her young husband had been more mature, kind and considerate to her in the dark moments she must have experienced. He kept recalling the landlady telling him she seemed afraid. She had left no note, letter, no diary. Just a notice for a Doctors appointment for the next day,

An autopsy was performed in the county where she died. She was flown home, and the funeral was then held at First Methodist Church in Fort Worth, she was laid to rest in the family plot a few days later.

They tried to put all those thoughts behind, and John had never spoken to Bobby since. Over the years, Bobby did attempt to call him, but he would never take his call. His daughter was gone and so was Bobby Hale, as far as he was concerned.

"We watched her grow, heard her laugh, and cry, lived with her anxieties, felt pride in her beauty and sweet nature. She was brunette, at sixteen taller than her mother, active, and vivacious, able to dance and sing and playact, all with ease". They never got over her death. As Nellie said "We just went on".

Misfortunes followed. The Assassination of President Kennedy, at less than an arms length, the bribery trial, the bankruptcy …All were traumatic, devastating, and ate away at the soul.

"However sad oo grievous, none of these can equal the burden of sorrow we will carry with us to the grave over the death of Kathleen. This is the first time I have ever discussed it in any detail, and it will also be the last."

John Connally.. .

_______________

Dixie

Duke

Thanks for your explanation, as well as for your additional informatiom, regarding those two women. You referred me to Mary Ferrell's site, and I am also noticing that so much information can be obtained on that site. But, unfortunately I am unable to even access that site anymore. Something about it was changed and now causes my set to freeze and then just disconnets me. So, I know that I am missing out on a lot of great information. Hopefuly my access problems will wventualy be remedied.

Dixie

Duke

You are most likely thinking of Jack Ruby's sister, Eva Grant. She did manage a nightclub for Jack, called The Vegas Club. Bertha Cheek also managaed nightclubs in the past,...plus her ex husband (Lloyd Cheek) had been in a nightclub band. Although, primariy she was a property invester and owned several apartments buildings.

Where did you find that info you posted and in which I quoted? I had not read that part before, even though I have tried to research Bertha Cheek for a very long time. I was not aware she was friends with Eva Grant, although I can see that she would most likely, at least know her. I sure didn't knwo about the Carr conversation part of the info though.

Dixie

Duke...in the following paragraph you posted this:

"It's an interesting thing: Carr brought up the story to two women he was visiting around Christmas 1963 (and who both happened to be friends with Jack Ruby and his sister Bertha Cheek), but if he told anyone else about it, they didn't apparently repeat it. One of the women contacted the FBI after Christmas, and the FBI in turn got in contact with Carr after the first of the year and again about a month later. As he said, Carr was not deposed by the WC nor was any statement he'd given to the FBI published in the volumes."

However, I am not real clear if you are saying that Bertha Cheek was Carr's sister or Jack Ruby's sister. It is just that she is not a sister of either Carr or Ruby. So, I am not sure if Bertha was actually one of these two wonen or not. She was however, a businees acquntance with Jack Ruby and a sister of Earlene Roberts, who was the housekeeper, where LHO was living, on Beckley.

Dixie

I have some additional info in regard to CD Jackson.

On Sept. 25th 1961, Barney and Betty Hill, were driving home from a weekend trip, when they believed they had encountered a UFO. It was not until a couple of years later, when they were having increasing anxiety problems, they decided to go to a top Boston Psychiatrist (from recommendations) that specialized in Regressive Hypnotherapy. He also happened to be a Military Psychiatrist in PTSD, Amnesia and Dissociative Disorders. They were put into a deep trance state and only then did they finally recall actually having an alien abduction. .These sessions, beginning in late1963, were once a week and lasted for six months. This coincidently began and coincided with JFK's assassination.

However, previous to this, the Hills had talked about their UFO sighting to several friends, some who were in the Air Force, stationed at Pease Air Force Base, near their home. Betty also began checking out UFO books from her local library...and then she began having recurring UFO type dreams, that were becoming more and more frightening. As she revealed her dreams to Barney, he began having much anxiety as well as medical problems.

In those library books, Betty read about a a Donald Kehoe,, a Retired Marine Major. He was the head of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) She contacted Mr Kehoe and .although NIACP received thousands of such claims each month, for some unknown reason the Hills were placed at the top, for immediate investigation. Mr Kehoe, then took a couple of other NICAP members to lunch and informed them of the Hills UFO encounter. They wanted to interview the Hills. One of them, wrote the Hills a letter for permission to visit with them...which they agreed to do so.

In their letter to the Hills, they were told that they were two serious minded men whose interest is in "verifying the origin of these vehicles according to existing scientific theory maintained by Hermann Oberth." Oberth was of V-2 rocket fame.

These two men turned out to be ROBERT HOHMAN and CD JACKSON.. They met with the Hills on Oct, 24, 1961., just about a month after their UFO encounter. In addition, a close friend. of the Hills, ..an Air Force Major with Military Intelligence, by the name of James McDonald. just happened to show up at their home, on the same day..They all arrived around noon and stayed for 12 hours and left around midnight.

CD Jackson claimed to be a "senior engineer" for a "notable electronics company" They did not reveal their actual place of employment.

They were supposedly working on a paper about extra-terrestrial contacts that Nikola Tesla, David Todd and Marconi were alleged to have experienced in the early part of the century.

The Hills had discussed the case many times with Major McDonald. But although they hadn't mentioned it to anyone else, Barney claimed to have seen men in the glass window if the UFO. They did tell the three men about this.

At this meeting, the Hills heard for the first time, they seemed to have a couple of hours of missing time. They had not previously even realized that.Throughout out the meeting, they were fully questioned and much was brought up that they had not even thought about before. Many seeds were planted in their minds at that meeting. It was also suggested at this meeting, they be hypnotized. Yet, it was some time before they actually did so

Why was a major electronics firm

paying them Hohman and Jackson, to investigate 60-year-old fairy tales a- bout Nikola Tesla? What "scientific theories" held by Hermann Oberth could be of interest to an "electronics firm."

What we actually appear to here is a "cover" for intelligence activity. IN ALIENS FROM SPACE, 1973, Keyhoe says that these two "engineers" were "aiding NICAP." That is not the impression that is given in Fuller's book. In INTER- RUPTED JOURNEY the strong impression was that these two gentlemen simply had an independent interest due to a strange research assignment from their company.

By the fall of 1963, C.D. Jackson was working for Time/Life Corporation in an executive position. In fact, he was helping to arrange a $25,000 payment to the widow of Lee Harvey Oswald. Jackson was involved in the Eisnehower era in Psychlogical Warfare and Propagamnda. Plus all the UFO type groups were very infiltrated with CIA and MIlitary Intelligence. It is believed he had been in the CIA, since the 1940's.

Donald Keyhoe , with NICAP, was a UFO searcher running a two-track operation. In the public and with his organization he was not interested in "contactee" stories. But on deep background he was involved with another investigation, one connected with the intelligence community.

For the most part, the Hills claims have been regarded as truthfull. They were quite intelligent, had good jobs and were well regarded in their community Barney was a Postal Worker and Betty was a Welfare Worker.Yet they were also an Interracial couple and both were much involved in Civil Rights. In addtition, they belonged to a Universalist Church.

However, iT is believed by many, (including

myself) that the Hills were victims of a Psychiological Mind Control Experiment. ...and they fit the target criteria in various aspects.

Many years later, in 1990, a writer was writing about the Hills and also believing in the Psychological mind control aspect. She sent Betty Hill a series of letters for confirmation in regard to certain facts. She also asked her about her previous meeting with CD Jackson. By this time,, it had been known who he actually was. Below is a portion of Betty's reply back to that writer. I am not sure what to make of it though...especially since CD Jackson actually died in 1864.

Written by Betty Hill in June 1999

Quote

_________________________________

      My basic objections are to the

conclusions, which are in error. As for Ho- man and C D Jackson, they were research scientists, working at top level government jobs. Their HOBBY was ufos.

As a job protection for them, we agreed not to release their employment, altho it was well known to us. C D Jackson was never associated with Time/Life. We had continuing contacts with them. Jackson, in 1966, was still working in Alabama, at the same employment.

__________________________________

Unquote

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Dixie

Good grief Kathy....

Do you think Michelle is the only person with that last name? In the first place, they do not even live in CA. and in the second place, she is not even a Member here. In the third place, even if she was a member here, don't you feel she might possibly be rather humiliatrd to have it blabbed on here.....that is, whether it was actually her husband or not. She happens to be a very nice womna, and sure doesn't deserve such thoughts.

Dixie

David H and Gary L...thanks so much for the kind words!

Mark,

What am I to think of you, even though I had zero knowledge of you, previous to your response to me. I believe that I did state that I don't recall ever posting in this particular forum, although I possibly did so a very long time ago. I only rarely even lurk here in this forum. But, you are right that I have not been much of a poster in the JFK forum in the past four years. I just choose to read, rather then post. On the other hand, I do find it extremely annoying to see someone posting as you indicate, in an over abundance amount of times per day. However, I do believe that is their perogative and not mine. Nothing to concern myself with anyway and I most certainly see no reason to attempt to compete. with anyone in that manner. I also do not wish to pursue this matter any further with you. It is wholly unimportant to the real issues at hand.

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Dixie

Mr Vernon...you are apparently responding to my post, although I don't know who JHC is. Yes, I do seem to be serious, because i am serious.

What does it matter if I have posted only one time or 5,000 times in the past four years? To get over myself? Don't you feel that we all take things differntly at times...sometimes only depending on our mood at the time.

Perhaps I wasn't too clear that my initial assumption had been erroneous. I fully do acknowledge that fact. I also need to be more clear that I have no complaint whatsoever, about the content of John's email and even believe it was an action that was needed.

Is your reply an attempt at an intimidation? If so, I wish no conflict with anyone, on any matter!

One other point, I am hardly a newcomer to JFK Research forums. I am a Member of several JFK forums and have been for many years...so I am not unknown, even though we seem to be unfamilar with each other. I am quite familiar with the workings of forums and their various Administrators. I also do believe at iimes a different action needs to be taken I also have no problem with that.

__________

Dixie

Now, I feel compelled to also speak out. I also received John's email and felt rather offended about it. I had made an assumption that I was, for some reason being singled out, as a part of a specific group. That is even though, I had not only refrained from any remarks in this current 2-3 week issue.I do not even recall ever posting in this Political Conspiracy Forum and in fact, rarely even come here. I am not into these Conspiracy issues and really have no opinion on most of them.

I am involved in JFK research only and that is the forum of my interest. However, just as everyone else lately, I have been reading these current broo-haws because they do always with human nature, seem to draw a crowd. Even so, I felt no compulsion to voice any opinion I have no idea who is or isn't considered the so-called culprits of this particular forum.

So, needless to say, I was offended by the email...like why in the world did John think I did something wrong? But then after discussing it with a couple of other members, I did realize that the email had been sent to all the members, so I did not feel so mistakingly singled out then. It does not matter to me, if John has received many words of encouragement in regard to that email.....I know of others that regarded it just as I had.

I can't speak for Jack, but I am able to understand why he believed as he did...since I had felt something similar.

But John explained in this thread, about that email, which was quite clear....and to me.... so, end of my own concerns. But, there are a few who took the big opportunity to apply much ridicule towards Jack and it seems to be continuing., with all the cheap shots. Is this not just what one of the issues, that email was all about, in the first place. The bad things stated about co-members of this forum! Is Jack the only one that is not entitled to express his thoughts, beliefs and opinions, whether you or I, or anyone agrees or disagrees with him? Is he not entitled to express his offense at that email, feeling it was being directed at him? He even pointed out his reason for feeling as he did.

For all we know, now that he sees it was not directed at him, perhaps he now even agrees with what John stated in the email, just as I now agree with it....yet he continues to received all this ridiculous and unnecessary ridicule. He got the mssage, with out all this!!

I do realize the additional concern of Jack not adding a link to his Bio as is expected of everyone else. I have no comment about that...except that is a matter between the Admin. (perhaps through the Mods) and Jack. I am not privy to whatever reason for non-compliance that Jack might have...but neither does the other members.

I did notice that Jack has added a bio of sorts, in his signature area....which actually says more then a few other's actual Bios that i have read. I have also noticed a couple of others who have added a bio in their signature area and they are certainly not being so-attacked.

I have met Jack and had converstaions with him and regard him as a friend. I also have met some who can be regarded as Non-Conspiracists as well as being regarded as LN's. I happen to also like them. My personal criteria does not reflect anyone's own opinion, theories or beliefs. Primarily, I just don't care about that and as most everyone that knows me realzies, I do attempt to get along with everyone. Yet, if attacked, then maybe I will bark back...and maybe I can speak up when I see someone being overly rediculed....or especialy when I am seeing an indication of attempting to drive someone away because of their non-conforming beliefs.

From what I am seeing on this thread, exactly who is continuing to pursue this matter..... not Jack! And...Jack was not the only one that felt offended and neither was I, the only other one.

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Dixie

Duke posted...

Quote

"Cowtown" was reproduced by someone and placed here on the forum before I was even a member. Now, a few more people have read it than had before. No problemo.

UNQUOTE

Actually, I am the culprit that posted your "Cowtown" article. I read it and liked it and thought others would also like to read it. For some reason, it never even occcurred to me that I might not be doing the right thing! Then later on, I did worry some about it. But, then when you joined the forum I felt that you knew I had posted it and since you never did chastise me about it, I did aassume it was okay with you. I believe later on, someone else also posted it, but I don't recall who it was. So, I am now quite pleased to hear that it was okay with you!!

Thanks much

Dixie

QUOTE

A Myth Contradicted By Fact

"The myth of the Vietnam veteran as a social misfit, Burkett believes, has been perpetuated by the liars and wannabes who have seized on Vietnam either as an excuse for their problems or as a way to add color to their otherwise drab lives. In their efforts, the fakers have been aided and abetted by the VA, veterans advocates, and the mental health care industry. Not only do they denigrate fighting men who were among the finest America ever produced, but the monetary cost has been enormous for American taxpayers. Even today, the Veterans Administration often does not check the records of those who claim to suffer from maladies caused by Vietnam, even though it is patently clear from Burkett's research that many of those who make the claims never came within spitting distance of Southeast Asia."

UNQUOTE

Mike, I read this entire post and found it to be quite informative as well as interesting. Now, I feel compelled to respond to the article. But, first of all, of course, I do not know any of the names mentioned nor their specific circumstances. Yet irregardless, I do know that most of what I just read is absolutely true.

Several years ago, I attended the Univ of Utah for a week-long seminar in my (former) field as an Alcohol and Drug Abuse Specialist. In one segment we had a lecturer, who reminds me a whole lot of this Burkett. I don't recall the mans name, but it was even possibly him. He was involved with the Veterans Admin. and spoke of all that this article also contains....so I won't repeat what the article already says. However, I was rather astonished at the time, to hear all of this. I was especially shocked to hear that when he checked Military records, many of those who were using their Viet Nam experiences for their conditions, with so-called PTSD or Agent Orange claims or Mental problems or alcohol and drug abuse had never even left the states.

or had not seen any active duty, if they did.

At that time, I was primarily involved in the area of Women's recovery in alcohol, drug and related problems, so was not around the male members in this group.

However, after awhile, I became involved first as a Board Director and then as a Manager of a Social Club for those in Recovery. I was able to become quite close to a lot of men who were actually using their Viet Nam War experiences for all their problems. So many of them didn't work and were on SSI or trying to get on SSI, even though many were managing to remain sober. I also noticed that quite a few didn't even look old enough to have served in the Viet Nam War, Yet most did appear to have some forms of mental problems, which they blamed on Viet Nam. I did suspect that their past drug use had played a role in their current conditions. Perhaps they believed society would accept their conditions better, if they made the Viet Nam claims. Some just couldn't seem to get over the Viet Nam experinces, which I had doubts had even occurred.

One man I knew, who was actually a nice man..a Mexican American. He didn't appear to have any sort of bad Viet Nam problems and was once a Deputy Sheriff and later worked in areas of Security. Boy... was he a big talker. He also claimed to have been a Green Beret. He seemed compelled to let us know how tough he was and would continually talk about all those horrendous things he was involved in, in Viet Nam....that I really didn't want to hear. I began to doubt he had been a Green Beret at all. I didn't feel there was all that many Green Beret's, yet seems that every other Viet Nam Vet made that claim. But this guys stories were terrible and I was also not so sure he would actually have been constantly talking about them so freely, if they had been true. Yet the type of man he was....once we expelled a gal from the club for writing several hot checks. She refused to make restitution, even though I gave her an option to work in the Club for a little while to repay it. She wouldn't do that either. A couple of years later, this man started dating this gal. He unknowingly, brought her into the Club one evening and she didn't bother to inform him of her past problem with the Club. I think she assumed after that long it was forgotten. However, I took her aside and told her she was still not welcome, unless she made restitution. I don't know what she told the guy, but they did leave. The very next day he came into the Club wanting to hear the whole story. I had known him for quiet some time, so I did tell him. He left and went back to that gals and confronted her and then she did admit it all and he was quite upset that she had let him take her there in the first place. So, then he came back to the Club and offered to pay her past bad checks. But I wouldn't let him do that...because that is the way I am...:-) So, the guy was a nice person, but irregardless, I just did not buy his Green Beret horror stories...which I felt he was using to impress us for some strange reason.

Another man..also a Mexican American, did go to Viet Nam and he said that his family was so proud of him, since he was the only one in his family that had been in the MIlitary. Somewhere along the line, he developed a bad drinking problem. In order to try and cover up his own actions and worsening condition, he told his family that he had been exposed to Agent Orange. He said that got a whole lot of mileage for quite awhile. His whole family pampered him and enabled him and felt sorry for him. He said he was ashamed of what he was doing, but in a way he had even half way convinced himself that he was in a delicate condition. Then one day he realized he had to do something about his drinking. He went into a Rehab and eventually came clean with his family. Today, he has many years of sobriety and is a well respected man in a Health Related field. He talks about what he once did to his family and he is also well aware of all that is mentioned in your article. He deals with such people today!

One more thing....I use to know a man that advised others on how to get on SSI, in less then honest ways, ...and it did usually work. Some of it also had to do with supposed Viet Nam experiences, that never happened.

I was not able to check up on anyone's claims and had no reason or any desire to do so. But, I did have intuition and would have a hunch when someone was either imagining or fantasizing things or outright lying. Of course I could have been wrong in a few cases, but I doubt very many. were being all that honest.

So, Yes, Mike I do agree that many have used Viet Nam as a reason or excuse to gain "something" in their lives.

___________

Dixie

Thomas and All...

Not only are both of their collars turned up, both are also wearing polo type shirts under their jackets.

For quite some time I had noticed this resemblance, but had not mntioned it until just recently, on another forum.

I believe the photo James has attached of Michael Paine, is at a younger age. So, I am wondering if in a few years he did look even more like the "frenchie" tramp.

However, there is another photo, which is the most usual one shown, where he is older and IMO looks nothing like the younger photo nor like the "frenchie" tramp either. Could he have actually changed his looks that much or is something wrong with the photo? Strange since the younger one looks so much like "frenchie" in many ways....even though at this time, I don't feel that "frenchie" actually was Michael Paine.

Photo link

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKpaineM.htm

Michael Paine testified that he was at work on the morning of the assn. He was on his lunch break, with a co-op student (Dave Noel) at a nearby cafeteria. They had just been discussing the topic of "the character of an assassin" when a waitress told them that JFK had just been shot. Several gathered around a radio, but then the two of them left the cafeteria and went back to the office and turned the rasio on in the lab, where several other co-workers were gathered and had not yet heard the news. There is another version of this lunch time event in the testimony of Frank Krystinck

Testimony Of Michael R. Paine

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/paine_m1.htm

Testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/krystini.htm

--------

Dixie

Hi Dawn...

For many years, I resisted reading Myers book. I suppose that after reading Posner's book, I just had no more interest in LN type books. However, I found a copy at ebay or maybe it was one of the online used book sources and the price was good, so I did buy it. Still, I kept it for some time before I actually decided to read it. Then, one day I did start reading it and now I am very pleased that I did!

As Raymond mentioned, it does have some valuable information. In fact, there are eome things that I had not read about before.

One thing that I especially appreciated was all of the photos and drawings of the whole area around where Tippit was killed. I had never really been able to figure out where each witness was located or differmt places along that street. But with these, it was all so much more clear. You could see the path the shooter took down that street, the service station he went behind and the alley. I just really liked these

visual aids.

THe down side of the book, is that he just didn't go far enough in many cases. Although he did daddress some things of Tippit's personal life that I dodn't feel he would actually do. But although in other areas, he would mention many things, he stopped before he got into there being any question or controversy over the matter...well anything that might tend to look suspicous, he just didn't explore any further.

I read on a website some time ago, that Myers was once a CT and even went on the lecture circuit. Then at some point he changed his views and became an LN. But I can't state this is a definite fact. There may be some here that knows if true or not. If true, he might have at one time not have believed LHO shot Tippit. But then of course, many CT's do believe he did so.

Incidently, I read about 50 pages of Bugliosdi's book and that did it for me. I just have no desire to continue reading it. I even hate that I spent so much for it, and now you can pick it up, for only ten bucks. That seems rather strange! I do have a hint for our female forum members, who also feel they are stuck with this book...eepecilly since I figure it would cost plenty to try and ship it to someone else. So, although this is not originally my own suggestion and it did come from another one of our femake forum members.....the book is great for us shorter women who have trouble reaching up and into a top cupboard. It gives you just the right heighth. :-)

__________

Dixie