Charles Black

Hello Jack

I do understand your thinking and why there have been many diferent directions taken in this case by various researchers. No legitimate research has been ill intentioned or meant to be misleading. However I am stating that a major portion of the areas being studied are the result of clever conspirator manipuation and the "extending of carrots" !

I have never been of the belief that the actual "shooting" was a well executed masterpiece. IMO, this was the most botched aspect of the operation and did not go down nearly as smoothly as was planned and hoped for!

The true brilliance in this very successful "coup" has been in the careful planning of the cover ( with both LBJ and Edgar in place ) to handle the "immediate" cover, and the continous, to this day, "unfolding" of strategic and immediate "misdirection and dis-information",

which has led us to as many tangental and unimportant investigations as a porcupine has quills. When I think of the billiance of the cover, what comes to mind is the Pied Piper; piping his followers to destruction.

Human nature is such that most humans, tho not necessarily admittedly, "Want to be Led". They choose the road which is much less demanding and confrontational than "leading". They prefer to "not give their work any further consideration" after they arrive home and in the personal comfort and security to which they eagerly return.

Likewise, and this is a personal opinion only, that the same formula of seeking comfort and security in the security of the generally accepted forum ideology, is why most people who "read" this forum do not participate. They are afraid of saying something that "someone" may not like and they don't want to alienate themselves from the "safety and comfort of their peers agreement".

There seems to be the inner thought that their own personal observations, if unlike those of the masses, must be mistaken and......the whole world will both realize it and secretly perhaps, scorn them as being "stupid or wierd".

This is why major corporations have long acknowleged that "true leaders" are in very short supply.

I don't think that, mostly due to what I have just stated, there will be much response to what I have requested.

After all.....persons could make a complete and utter fool of themselves if they made a practice of following "non conformists". It is much safer to lose oneself in the middle of that very long line which is always following "The Piper" !

Few people feel deep down in their "guts", that "the truth" is more important than safety or comfort ! A very few others, believe that there are things much worse than "dying" !

When I was very young, and maybe only because of that, I deeply believed in words such as honor, trust, loyalty, sef respect, duty and truth.

I only hope that I still uphold at least some of that.

Charles Black

During recent years, I have often been both criticised and ignored when I have posted certain views or assassination "scenarios", which many call far "out of the box" and contain too great a degree of "speculation". In a review of some of these, which tho I admit are not in support of appx. 99% of the more popular thoughts or discussion subjects, I have decided that if I am at all rationally cognizant of existing "facts", these ideas / speculations are factually quite sound and are theoretically and factually more sound than many well accepted theories which are still being ( RE ) discussed to the point of nausea.

I have taken a great deal of flak for being "overly speculative." By my thinking, other than for many details involving persons whom might have been associated with this conspiracy, the past couple of decades has really introduced nothing that has changed or increased knowlege of what occurred in Dealey Plaza. In order to proceed, it will be necessary to reiterate several of my past statements which I find increasingly valid, as I wade thru more and more of the posts in this case.....most of which I feel are "well past redundancy". Some subjects have and continue to be so overly pursued that I feel that these topics, that do little more than offer a soapbox for repetitive and quite redundant issues......that do not effect or even approach

the seeking of "closure " to this issue.

Perhaps I am completetly wrong and out of order.

I, however approach this issue as more than a forum for debate. My proposed goal for this and similar forums are much higher than acting as an arena of undirected debate.

Again; if we are not seeking closure / solution,

why are we here?

I will come now to the reason for this posting.

It should be quite evident to most who have studied this case, that we have followed only a handful of speculative theories. We ONLY KNOW that JFK was killed and JBC was seriously wounded by "apparent" gunfire in Dallas Texas on 11/22/63 at appx. 12:30 PM CST.

We Do Not know, how many shots were fired, how many gunmen fired them, where these gunmen were located, what type of weapons were used, the exact NUMBER of "hits" or separate wounds that were inflicted on either JFK or JBC, the extent of the wounds ( since there is no decided clarity on the EXACT nature or number of wounds or, in reality, the FACTUAL extent of the wounds ). We do not know if there were two shooters or ten!

In my opinion, "WE KNOW", only little morwe than what we were "MEANT To KNOW".

It would seem to me that after 43 years, if one is expecting the answer to come from these same known "facts" ......that there will be no answer.

Yet anyone attempting to introduce the thought that what occurred in Dealey Plaza is ABSOLUTELY NOT what it seems; and therefore another and different scenario must have ocurred is referred to as ignorant...."or attempting to be overly speculative and not following the preponerance of

[ EVIDENCE ? ]".

In that many of you have chosen to ignore MY personal pleadings as the ravings of "another uninformed", I will now get to the purpose of this thread.

I am proposing the addition of another and different "pinned Thread", which might be titled "Alternative Theory". In this thread we would "ignore" a few very old " FACTS " such as: three gunmen...a "military" style ambush"....triangulation of fire....a single gunman....only the use of "high or medium power rifles"....no weapons such as concealed handguns...impossibility of female assassins, spotters or helpers....and the theory that previously "undetected shooters" can be found in the continuing study of the 43 year old photographs.....and the VAIDITY "in entirety" of the Zaruder Film as being "un-soiled"!

My purpose for the creation of this thread

would be to inspire in some researchers NEW thought !

Old thought has brought only OLD and UNPROVEN

"non-solutions". Do we really feel that further study of the same "evidence" will disclose new solutions?

I have been called "out in left field"....which is true because I was a pretty good left fielder.

And I prefer to remain there, as I see the popular theories dying natural deaths as they continue to "strike out". Team morale is bound to be currently waning. Both winning and losing can be contagious !

I propose that one should imagine oneself as "the planner of the shooting"! A planner that had at his or her disposal TRULY "unlimited resources and support". How would you plan an ABSOLUTELY

ASSURED KILL ?

Perhaps I really am a kook and my "wild speculations" should continue to be ignored, so as not to overload the forum with only speculative minutae !

Also, just as an afterthought.....perhaps the three or four pages in the topic involving "Swearing" have jumped to the "forefront" of the forum because....IT IS SOMETHING NEW....It might indicate that "Boredom Prevails" as a result of the redundancy to which I have so often referred regarding the endless continuation of, in most part, entirely repetitive discussions !

Perhaps a decision should be made as to whether the forum should actively PURSUE a case solution: or whether the primary purpose of this forum is to educate the pre-college level students and to decide what they should or should not be exposed to. I realize the importance to the EDUCATORS that created this excellent forum, that this highly regarded and excellently rated forum

should not be degraded by inappropriate behaviour.

Charles Black

Having not been born in the "Land of the Free",

John cannot possibly understand the horror which we Americans face when we are unknowingly thrust in the midst of the "cultured". It is a terrible burden that we Americans bear/bare, as John so frquently acknowledges.

I feel however that most of us are generally nice people.....We are merely incapable of engaging the more cultured in the statospheric arena in which they have had the advantage of always having competed.

I feel that it would be more Christian, or more universally spiritual, for those so fortunate as not to have suffered the depravity of our outcast society, to be somewhat more forgiving of we unfortunates.

But I personally greatly appreciate the tolerance of this forum, the sacrifice which has been made by the members in their toleration of our crude and often vulgar behavior, and the empathy which has been demonstrated.

I consider myself particularly fortunate and now feel that I might, with continued guidance, be lifted from the dregs into which I was cast at birth. I feel that "all Americans" owe John Simkins a tremendous expression of gratitude.

We have been truly blessed and should eagerly express such. It is this type of tolerance and understanding toward which I shall set my goals.

Again....Thank You John !

Charles Black

I have a sincere and legitimate question which I hope is not in violation of forum rules. I was reading in another thread that three members had been warned / cautioned regarding language. Since the thread was closed and I did not want to be redundant and begin a new thread, I decided to enter my question here.

Do the moderators act as body similar to a jury?

Does it take all moderators to be in agreement in order for a member to be found guilty? Does "one" vote of "not guilty" act as an acquittal? Does one vote of "guilty" effect sentencing?

Earlier today while on the beach, I expressed to my wife that she has a nice rear end (though I used another word for rear end) ...... should she feel complimented or "sworn at" ?

It has been pointed out on several ocassions that due to the international composition of the forum, we seem to have some major cultural differences.....could ones particular culture increase the chances of being thought of, God forbid, "as a swearer" ? Is it taken into consideration that perhaps some of the culturally deficient may be breaking rules due to this deficiency?

Perhaps members should be required, prior to the granting of membership, to complete a study of the correct procedure for the mingling of international culture. But which culture should be used as "model"? Should that be voted on by all members....dictated.....or decided by the moderation board ? But then again, what percentage of moderators or overall vote is required to decide the issue.

If there can be no common agreement, perhaps we could refer it to the U.N. But that is not a good idea because it could be "vetoed" by one security council member !

This is a major global dilemma that requires immediate attention and action, but I am more confused now than when I asked my initial question.

By the way....in that we seem to be culturally compatible, my wife took my comment as a compliment !

Charles Black

I will not bore you members with this topic beyond this last posting !

But don't you all KNOW that within this family are ALL of the answers which you have sought for nearly 44 years? Jackie alone, as a result of her association with Onassis and his intelligence network, knew more than we have even questioned !

The Kennedy family has probably been more of a formidable roadblock to this investigation than have government agencies.

Regardless of their "motivation"....Bobby and Jackie have probably been our greatest stumbling block. These "two people", more than anyone, knew what happened, and for "personal reasons" covered up a bona fide Coup d'Etat, from which the U.S. will probably never fully recover.

It is as if our citizenry feels that they will be turned into a "pillar of salt" if they utter one word that casts a shadow on this families self created personna.

Whether or not anyhthing worthwhile still remains therein, there are numerous

"sealed" Kennedy Family files that cannot be accessed. What is meant by "a matter of National Security", if aiding in the cover of a Coup d' Etat is not ?

The Iran Contra secrets, fade into oblivion when compared with what this family has concealed.

How do we threaten to impeach a sitting U.S. President over a sexual indiscretion, yet do or say nothing over a matter as serious as this ?

One must question our absolute "illogic" and very misguided sense of values !

I don't suppose there is an explanation...other than very lame and juvenille excuses...Are we afraid that such thoughts will set forth a 21st century "inquisition" ?

There is no 11th Commandment that states .....

"Thou shall not deface the Kennedy self engraved image".

Many of you MUST agree with my criticism.....but are afraid of that "bolt of lightning"...or the crticism which you know that you will receive by stating so.

So this crazy old xxxxx will continue to sit under my bridge, and think of more blasphemous things to ponder !

Charles Black

I am having a great deal of difficulty in wording my question in a manner that is not demeaning to the Kennedy Family, but will still give the American citizenry of appx. 300 million persons, its "just due".

I know personally that if the families of either you or I were withholding information that dealt with that often used and seemingly all encompassing phrase, "National Security", we would have "No Recourse" but to disclose this information or to suffer some very dire consequences.

I realize that most of us and our respective families have not enjoyed the privilege of, by whatever means are used in the elevation of some to such statospheric heights as enjoyed by the Kennedy family....and I do realize the relative importance that money and power plays in the minds and decisions of some who hold the highest political positions....this does not give the Kennedy family LEGALLY and CONSTITUTIONALLY, more rights in witholding any information from its government, which deals in National Security or the welfare of this country and its citizenry than the families of yours and mine.

I am certain that such an attempted withholding of evidence would be dealt with most seriously. I also feel that if the disinterrment of my father or mother were deemed in the "better interest of National Security"......that my failure to approve same action could or would deter any such action.

I am not seeking to withold from the Kennedy Family their "just due".....but I feel that their "just due" is no greater than that of my family and many others whom have sacrificed more sons and daughters, and their good works and patriotic efforts for the welfare of this country.

Tho I expect that a multitude of Kennedy Family groupies will disagree with me due to some misguided loyalty......the logic of what I am saying is beyond reasonable challenge.

The Kennedys chose the public spotlight, and benefits that it bestowed upon them. Both their achievements and losses have been great.

This is not a denouncement; however many of their achievements may be directly related to the money and power which backed and propelled them to these highly elevated levels. And it must be acknowledged that they have been both blessed and rewarded.

Their family losses, tragic as they may have been, do not overshadow much greater losses suffered by many families who were not awarded the comfort of universal solace and recognition.

I strongly believe that it is an extreme indifference to the welfare of their nation that makes their "accepted lack of cooperation, thru their witholding of evidence "near treasonous"!

Such a lack of cooperation by you, me, or any members of our families, would be dealt with in the most severe manner! And our citizenry would not protest !

Please don't attempt to explain to me that this is just the way that things are and have alweays been so......I damned well realize this! The objection to such thinking however, was one of the fundamentals which guided this nation toward Independance and a "hopeful" change toward a nation of equal citizens with equal rights. It also was one of the bases of the War Between the States!

What "secrets" does the Kennedy Clan have that are not known by many?

My ONLY POINT in this diatribe, are that these actions by the Kennedy's only further enforce what should by now be universal knowledge that the United Stated is not, and perhaps never has been, a Government Of, By, and for "THE" people.

Only SOME of the people.

In recent years it has come to the forefront, the EXTENT and RESULTS of the forfeiture of rights by our citizenry.....which has been brought about by the malaise of this "now complaining" citizenry.

We are being DICTATED to ! And continue to accept it ! Many foolishly and naively think that it is "unpatriotic" to acknowledge our many shortcomings and mistakes.

When the heads finally emerge back into the light, it may be well past "TOO LATE".

Fire away "PATRIOTS" !

Charles Black

"Bungled ? " or "Mastered ? "

"That is the question" !

I don't know which ocurred ! Either the handling and reporting of nearly ALL of the evidence in this case was either "completely bungled" by incompetence......OR......was "masterfully handled" by conspirators !

Nearly 44 years later we are unable to determine what is real or what is false in this case.

Arguably, the most important murder in recorded history !

I cannot believe personally, that the general muddling of very nearly ALL evidence, including JFK's body, was a result of incompetence !

I think that it may be the most masterful conspiracy since the U.S. entry into World War II. Perhaps the most masterful conspiracy ever !

Charles Black

I'm so cheered by all this rational second thinking.

Terry ... Do you enjoy Big Sur in autumn?

Enquiring Mind

I too would like to add a bit more second thinking. Tho I do believe any "timed" debate or confrontation would probably not advance the cause....I feel that there is one point that might help prevent such debate from becoming a complete quagmire. Only "Conspiracy Itself" should be the forefront of argument. There are such differences of opinions among supporters of conspiracy, as to whether Mafia or one of the groups of Cubans was involved, that I feel every attempt should be made not to become again "mired" in this point. Tho I personally believe that this was an operation of elements of U.S. government only, and that they are the only force that could have prepared and maintained the cover for this period of time.....that can come later !

First only, that there "WAS CONSPIRACY" !

Charles Black

I now realize that for many years I had, semi sub consciously, attempted to separate Oswald from Tippits murder. I had even gone so far to publicly post that perhaps Mrs. Roberts had made up the story of the Police car stopping and sounding its horn only for the sake of attention getting. She did say that there were "two" persons in the vehicle and I tried to partially use that to thwart her story. I now have come to believe her story. If I am not mistaken, there was a police uniform hanging inside the vehicle that could have been taken for another person. I cannot verify this, but in something that I read many years ago, this uniform was said not to have belonged to Tippitt. If anyone can clarify this it could be an interesting point as the uniform may have been carried for a "civilian" to don and appear to be a policeman and not a suspect. I searched last night but could not find my source regarding the uniform. Perhaps someone else may have come upon this. If true, it adds a very interesting twist.

Regarding the wallet.....I am frankly confused at conflicting reports. I believe that one wallet was removed from LHO "after" his arrest. I know that one wallet was left at the Paine household.

It has been suggested to me, I think by Gary Mack, that the wallet at the Tippit scene was Tippitt's wallet, and that this has been verified by both photos and testimony from the Tippitt family. I am certain that those of you who have studied JD Tippitt much closer than have I, may have more of a handle on this question.

My apologies are offered to anyone I may have offended by titling this post "Jefferson Davis" Tippitt. I came by this name from an assassination book that is somewhere in my collection. I have never spoken to a member of the Tippitt family to verify this.

Charles Black

You have no right to question my integrity !

I did no such thing. Again you are mistaken.

Originally, you never claimed you read Harvey & Lee, only that you "have read and continue to refer to Armstrong's

work." That could be the internet; it could be anywhere. How do you expect me or any other reader to know whether you read his book or not?

I'm tempted to respond more to your invective-laden posts, but my self-control got the better of me.

Michael Hogan

There was nothing "invective laden" in my post to Jack White in which I stated that I had read Armstrong and disagreed with his conclusions. Your opinions that I like many others claim to have read Harvey and Lee, when in fact we have not is what upped my "ire"... as it should have in anyone posessing any degree of self respect.

Anyone on this forum can read this entire thread to verify this. All you have done is present "lame excuses" for your very ungentlemanly behavior. Your excuses are juvenille as was your original inexcusable accusation.

Please don't waste your time further explaining your "logic" to me !

Charles Black

I don't like it insinuated by ANYONE that I am a xxxx....and that is what you did !

I did no such thing. You are mistaken.

Michael Hogan

That sir is "exactly" what you did ! Not even an absolute fool could take your words to mean anything else ! You, rather than apologizing for you unwarranted comments, are inferring they must have some other meaning ! This statement was as irresponsible as your former one !

You have the right to disagree with anything or everything which I might post. You have no right to question my integrity !

Charles Black

But Charles...it is DOCUMENTED that a Hidell wallet was found at the Tippit scene,

and that the man arrested at the theater had a Hidell wallet.

And then there is the LHO wallet left at the Paines.

Reread the wallet story in H&L.

Jack, you know well that most people that claim to have read and continue to refer to Armstrong's work almost certainly have never read his book, Harvey & Lee.

Although a couple of years old, there is a lengthy thread on Oswald's wallets:

Oswald's Wallet, Where, oh where, was it found?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4572

Although the thread follows tendencies and occasionally strays off-topic, there is some very good information posted by members. Robert Charles-Dunne makes some particularly outstanding points about Oswald's wallets.

I've missed Robert's participation and insightful analyses of late. I hope he is well.

Michael Hogan

It would not take a genius to assume that you are referring to me and my posting, when you inferred that many people claim to have read Armstrongs book that have not done so. I resent such a ridiculous assertion which you made regarding someone that you do not know or truly have any knowledge of.

I was one of the very first to have read this work and was one of the first to post on its content.

I found your comments rude and most certainly unwarranted.

You may not know who or what I am, but I have a pretty good idea regarding you and your very obvious lack of character !

What did you suppose that your comment, which should be judged "ridiculous" by members of this forum, added to the discussion of JFK ?

As a matter of fact, I have read this book more than once, and despite the research which obviously went into this book...I absolutely do not agree with his conclusions, although I can personally not come up with alternate explanations to some of these conclusions.

I personally wouldn't care if I were the only person in the world to so believe !

I don't like it insinuated by ANYONE that I am a xxxx....and that is what you did !

Charles Black

Although the "proposed confrontation or debate" would certainly draw much needed attention of the public to this case, I must continue to assert that it will bring "No Closure" !

With nothing "really new" that can be interjected by either side....I foresee a "tug of war"....... a very stationary "tug of war" at that !

It does not take genius to determine exactly the points and answers which will be brought forth by both sides. I really do not understand how one can expect an issue that has been debated already for 43 years, by some very brilliant minds, to in the matter of a few hours or even a few months, be resolved to anyone's satisfaction....There are no NEW arguments. There are no new FACTS. It can only be a REHASH of 43 years.

I can see "responsible good" coming from a debate ONLY in the introduction of some of the former "unknowing" public to the complexities of the case.

From my viewpoint, an ongoing "conspiracy to cover" can be proven as fact.......but only if a great deal of the incontrovertible evidence can be presented. The time frame of even an extended debate would not reasonably be possible to present all such evidence.

As we know, for every point there is a counterpoint that can be made by a knowledgeable debator. It would take the preponderance of evidence, which is definitely available but not possibly expressable in the time frame of a debate, to be presented, in order to refute the Warren Commission Redux of Mr. Bugliosi!

Other than the "needed reinterest" in the case, I see only re-posturing as the result of such a debate.

The Bugliosi team will even attack the "probable conspiracy" (addendum / conclusion) of the HSCA on the grounds of the reliability of the "sound testing". This alone could drag on for an eternity.

As I have already stated, I would cast my vote FOR a debate...but ONLY for the sake of publicity. Certainly not expecting CLOSURE !

Charles Black

Hello Jack

I have read and continue to refer to Armstrong's

work. It is a great resource which brought forth much new and interesting information. I have however been unable to force myself to accept its "major conclusion". I cannot believe that this much work and planning needed to occur over a twenty year period, in order to place one "low level intelligence asset" within the Soviet Union. We all agree that it initially had nothing to do with the murder of a President. We also must acknowledge that there were other such "defectors" placed without this ridiculously elaborate planning.

The plan was so complicated and involved so many

actions, that thru the reasonable course of life of "several" (quite a few) persons, could have quite easily and completely fallen apart. I cannot imagine what perceived value that such a "lower level asset" could have provided that required this much time, effort, money and meticulous planning.....particularly when the results would depend to a large degree upon luck or providence. I don't feel that there was any END that could justify the complexity of those MEANS.

Regarding the "wallet" at the Tippitt scene, Gary Mack emailed me appx. one year ago, after I had made an issue of the Tippitt murder scene wallet, that there is no conclusive proof that "the particular wallet alleged to have been picked up at the murder scene" was in fact what it was claimed to be". It came as somewhat of a shock to me, but I understand that there is only one Oswald wallet in evidence that carried the ID's of both Hidell and Oswald, and that was the wallet which was removed from Oswald after his arrest. I had always been under the assumption however that there was a wallet at the Tippitt scene, and it was there because Tippitt asked for ID when he first approached Oswald.

I have since acknowledged Mack's email as fact.

Regarding the shell casings, I have but one explanation.....they were originally "in the heat of the moment" mis-identified as .38 automatic.

By witness testimony, Tippit's assailant was seen discarding shells from a "revolver" and reloading the "revolver" as he fled.

I have for years wracked my simple little brain in an attempt to explain why a "completely innocent" Oswald, while never before having resisted arrest, would when surrounded by a swarm of armed Cops and obviously contained within the theatre, have drawn a weapon which "could and should" have led to his immediate death. It doesn't make sense for an "innocent" to do this !

He was voluntarily "attempting suicide by Police bullets".

I furthermore do not believe "all" of the talk regarding how "cool and collected" that this man was. We also have no way of knowing how many of the "beans" were spilled in his unrecorded interrogation. Apparently enough that he could NOT remain alive.

I have no alternative, in my method of thought, than to not alter my reconstuction of the events which I brought forth in my original posting.

Charles Black

The coup de grace, the fatal and final shot which entered Officer Tippit's brain was not a random act, but administered for one of two probable reasons. Either a hatred inspired desire for Tippit to die, or a desire to prevent Tippitt from identifying his assailant.

My feelings regarding this matter have oscillated many times during the past several decades. I tried to convince myself that Tippit's murder could have been a random act that was completely disassociated with that killing of the President. I considered it among several other possibilities, to have been a revenge/hate killing by a husband of one of Tippit's known paramours. However the method and randomness of the encounter pretty much negates that theory in my thinking. An enraged husband is unlikely to have been just walking down the street with the hope that JD might just "drive by". It is also unlikely for it to have been a "planned murder" with the murderer having no means of escape.

It has been theorized many times that JD was to be Lee's means of escape if such a "contingency plan" was evoked. It is further speculated that Oswald very obviously smelled PATSY when he realized that the President had been killed and obviously was afraid to enter the car with Tippitt. As a result of Tippit's possible persistence, a very frightened Oswald took the only appropriate action available to him....let us not forget that at some point during this episode, Tippits revolver was drawn. Oswald fired several times downing Tippitt. He then took the time to fire the coup de grace headshot in order to prevent Tppit from identifying him or calling for help.

I do not believe that, despite police audio tapes,

JD Tppit was in this neighborhood by chance....it is likely that it was his patrol car that beeeped its horn at Oswald's residence as was reported. I do not feel that this was in any way "A chance encounter".

Furthermore I find it unlikely that Oswald, who had on several ocassions previously been arrested with no resistance, would have drawn a weapon, while surrounded by armed police and seriously faced probable death, had he not killed a policeman!

In the theatre, the "cool and collected" Oswald.... LOST IT !

Although I do now believe Oswald to be the Tippitt killer, I believe him to have been a "DUPED participant" in a plot which he believed was to merely "scare or force" President Kennedy to take certain actions which were being demanded by the "empowered hidden government".

I feel that as the nitrate tests indicated, that LHO fired a pistol but "No Rifle" on 11/22/63.

I feel that Lee was both a Patsy and a Cop Killer... but not a Presidential assassin.

Charles Black

In order to express what I truly believe, I will have to deviate from naming debators.

IMO, the true problem is the sheer magnitude of both real and faked evidence. Such a debate could not be effectively productive over the course of a few hours....perhaps not in a "few months"!

These questions have been debated already, by MASTERS, for nearly 44 years and with hundreds of millions of words. What can be brought forth that is not already understood by those on both sides of the fence, and who no doubt have their "pre prepared and often heard" answers or explanations?

I feel that the end result would be an audience still as split as the debators.

It would take something new and "absolutely knock out" to force any type closure. I am referring to something as stunning as a "verifiable" photograph of Oswald in firing position with the MC rifle, that also captures JFK's head exploding. OR, a showing of of a successfully altered 8mm Kodacolor II film strip, and what effects that alteration could and would produce. OR, proof of the authenticity of "BADGE MAN".

I truly feel that regardless of what or how many words are spoken by the debators.....without the introduction of stunning and verifiable absolute proof, that has previously not been available, all that we will end up with is thousands of MORE WORDS.

Charles Black

posting error Sorry

For nearly countless years, I have believed that the results of alteration of both moving film and photographs represented a very strong portion of the case which supports a single assassin!

My being extremely ignorant in the field of film processing, regardless of hundreds of hours of my attemping to decipher technical arguments of why or why not Z film alteration could have been successfully (not flawlessly) accomplished.....I have seemingly learned nothing.

That isn't completely true ! I have learned that NOT ONE PERSON has proven by successful accomplishment of altering and presenting for review, a "successful" alteration of similar 8mm KodacolorII film. With hundreds of thousands of discussions which I feel certain have addressed this subject, and with NOT ONE EXPERT proving that it is possible.....I finally suspect that perhps those nay sayers were correct.

It would seem to me that someone with the expertise, interest, and funds...such as possibly

Oliver Stone.....would have done this with great fanfare.....BUT it has not been done !

I realize that "conspiracy" is a FACT even without proven Z film alteration. But I feel both very disappointed and personaly "hoaxed" as this has been a very important and major element in my personal mental re-creation of the events in Dealey Plaza.

Perhaps my "blind faith" should be reserved for "religion" only !

Charles Black

Hello Tim

If my very short entry is re-read, you will find that I in no way implied that any U.S. Intelligence Agency is or is not engaged in assassination plans against Castro or anyone else....as I obviously have no way of knowing. Even those who are employed by such agencies would have no such information unless they were directly involved in such an operation. I feel that you know that as well as much more regarding agencies "compartmentalization" !

I say much that may be criticized because I feel that I speak with a very open mind, and often make arguments, which I forewarn, are "my opinion only".

However I, as most on this forum, do not take lightly to being "purposely" misinterpreted.

Tim, I feel that you should take greater care as you seem to be more "combative" than your abilities allow you to be "competitive"! This often takes one "in harms way".

One should never enter a gunfight if armed only with a primitive club!

Charles Black

Hello John

Your post jolted my memory back to a question that I had several years ago. Why could there not be a Texas G.J. Investgation, or a court trial of LHO for the attempted murder of Governor JBC? How about the murder of Dallas police officer JDT?

In regard to Connolly, motive might be directed to the fact that when he was Sect./Navy, JBC would not overturn LHO's undesireable discharge which I understand upset Oz considerably.

Either charge would place us in as favorable a position as we might ever hope to be regarding JFK.

Charles Black

Hello John

Your post jolted my memory back to a question that I had several years ago. Why could there not be a Texas G.J. Investgation, or a court trial of LHO for the attempted murder of Governor JBC? How about the murder of Dallas police officer JDT?

In regard to Connolly, motive might be directed to the fact that when he was Sect./Navy, JBC would not overturn LHO's undesireable discharge which I understand upset Oz considerably.

Either charge would place us in as favorable a position as we might ever hope to be regarding JFK.

Charles Black

Although I realize that much "peripheral information" has come to light as a result of the release of FOIA documents, are there "truly" those here that anticipate, that after having been in the posession of U.S. Intellience for appx a half century, that information will "slip out" that was not planned to be "slipped" for public consumption?

Yes ! I do consider the information gained to be nothing more than peripheral ! There has been nothing learned that "enquiring minds" had not already pieced together some forty years ago.

Proof of "peripheral" activity has taken the research community WHERE?

A study of independent research material published before 1970, should indicate to anyone willing to rationally examine it; the lack of progress that has since been made that is of material importance!

This is even with the help of countless FOIA releases.

It seems that some of us are of the opinion still, that those members of intelligence agencies, many of which would not even be recognized by name, are blundering Neanderthals. The very fact that there are agencies of which you do not even know exist, should be a clue of how very well they are in "total control".

Yes ! I am thankful for and want access to more of these FOIA released documents....BUT....I certainly don't believe that they have or will TRULY bring us closer to answers which we didn't already realize by the year 1970 !

I do honestly "pray" that I am wrong !

Charles Black

Sorry, John, couldn't resist:

As Castro "did it", he is in the best position to know who killed JFK.

There is no evidence that the USA is today plotting the death of Castro. I mean, given his ill health, that would rather be a waste of resources, if nothing else, wouldn't it?

Tim

If I were not so gentlemanly, highly cultured, and conservatively reserved with my personal opinions, I would be forced to say your comment is as ridiculous as any that you have ever made.....and that is saying volumes !

Of course there is "no evidence" that the U.S. is plotting the death of Castro...or Putin...or members of the Iranian or North Korean Governmnt !

Do you expect the FBI or any intelligence agency to publish an article weekly in the NYT, of the current TOP TEN HIT LIST ?

Charles Black

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY !

Charles Black

sorry another double