Charles Black

Yes Chuck But what is RELEVANT....is not how the seating was arranged on any other day ! The only relevance was "The Planned Seating" on the day of the murder....and the seating was planned. I feel the missile thru the windshield to be MOST RELEVANT, as the seating arrangement was pre planned. I don't believe that "anyone doubts" that an object travelled thru the windscreen and that the windscreen was immediately replaced. This is most important...If not for a "sinister" reason, why in the midst of all else that was happening, was its "immediate replacement" deemed necessary? And even more telling...."why destroy this original piece of most important evidence?" This goes far beyond being "an unusual event"! It was deliberate....and the evidence was deliberately destroyed ! Charles Black

Hello Kathy I had not intended to get into this on the forum, however it has played on my mind for many years. I felt at the time, and possibly even moreso now, that there was no reason for this to have been undertaken covertly and at night. A portion of Arlington could have been cordoned off, and "NO FLY OVER" ordered. In addition, temporary privacy screens could have surrounded the area. I feel the photos taken of Robert and the activity were planned as another "scam", and the stainless steel container for the same purpose. I suggest this was undertaken because it was assumed perhaps at some point, that a non caring "only partially human", as myself, might suggest the "sacrilege" which I have suggested. The pictures taken during this covert operation smell of fakery ! Why would the Kennedy's have wanted anyone to see these pictures if not for a very definite purpose ? There are not a great many pictures released by this family. And to one as "paranoid" as I, twenty dozenteen witness statements, of this "true" occurrance, would not sway me one millimeter ! Even if one were written by the Pope ! This is how rotten I field the state of affairs is in my homeland ! And to you "true researchers"...NO, I can't prove anything ! Charles Black

Hello Kathy I disagree with you very strongly on most of your points. You "cannot" believe that the Kennedy family has been "pressed", as should any U.S. citizen be pressed who is believed to have "any" knowledge of the assassination? WHY ? It is generally presumed that we have "No Royalty" within this country, and our children are being taught, as was I, that "we all" are subject to the exact same rules, laws and conduct. It is my sincere belief, that this is one of the foremost principles upon which this country stands. A name such as Kennedy, Rockefeller or Vanderbilt, in no way elevates one above the basic rights of all. I most strongly reject the "lack of value" which you suggest would result from a disinterrment. It would show exactly the work of the morticians in the "patching of the skull, plus possibly very much more! How can anyone with any degree of reason, say that the solution of this murder and Coup d'Etat, is not a matter of "Foremost National Security". By comparison to this proposed action, information "known as TRIVIA", is still being witheld under the National Security guise ! I mean this as no disrespect to the Kennedy's, But I absolutely feel no higher regard for the wishes and welfare of the Kennedy family than I do for the poorest Black and Latino families on our welfare roles....nor should anyone. The Kennedy family has admittedly both prospered and suffered much. Their suffering has been eclipsed however, by thousands of lesser known and quite heroic families whose sons, brothers and fathers, have heroically given their all for the "assumed" equality of "all" of us for whom they were sacrificed. I know of NONE of the families of these "Heroes" whose families have been extended special privilege and courteousy. And I have been honored to personally have known many of them. OR.....Perhaps we do have "Royal Families" ! Charles Black P.S. Hoping not to create a seizure in any of the readers, but how surprising would it be if the Kennedy corpse no longer rests beneath the "eternal light", BUT at "Kennedy Family Request", has been reinterred at a secret and private location. This wouldn't necessarily be the most Bizarre occurrence in this case !

There are two areas regarding the 11/22/63 assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy, that in my opinion, have been the most significant deterrents to the understanding of what truly occurred. One is the inability to PROVE that the Zapruder film was altered. It is the second area that has totally perplexed me. I will say this "boldly" with no reservation or apologies. I feel that the actions and behavior of the "entire" Kennedy family (including Bobby), indicate complicency in aiding the "Cover Up". I have heard numerous, dozens, of explanations. These however are not valid explanations; merely quite weak "excuses". I am in effect accusing the Kennedy family of assisting in the "cover up" of what is arguably the most important event in U.S. history, and has had no doubt the most severe lingering effect on the future of the United States. Am I expected to be naive enough to believe that the Kennedy family was, and did remain, ignorant to the causes of what occurred and exactly who were the Prime Conspirators? I have not heard this mentioned before, but do any of you believe that Arstotle Onassis did not have the means and desire to uncover the important aspects of this event. Do you all recognize, the strength of the intelligence arm of his "Kingdom"? Or the intelligence capability of Robert Maheu (sp?) and the Hughes Empire? As a matter of fact, this has not at all been nearly fully explored. I am very sorry, but Kennedy family interests in concealing JFK's health, possible meanderings, collusion with the Mafia, or participation in the assassintions of foreign officials, can not be accepted as justification for covering a U.S. Coup d' Etat; except only by the most dull and naive! John F. Kennedy is not a closed case. This matter involves the utmost in United States National Security and as such, the Kennedy family could not, if so pressed, prevent the disinterrment of his body. Why have we in the U.S. allowed one family, which by the way does not have a "lilly white" history, to dictate the actions of our country. If it were deemed in the interest of "NATIONAL SECURITY", neither you nor I could prevent the disinterrment of our personal families back thru generations. Do I live in a free state? Do I have the same righs as all others, as my constitution guarantees me? If I in fact do not....why should I truly give a damned about this affair and merely accept what I "apparently am" ? I feel as if I am a caged, drugged and controlled resident of the largest mental facility in the universe ! Charles Black

Sorry ! Error !

I have an undocumented speculation as well as a question ! I speculate that it was not a belief that Hunt would keep his "mouth closed" that kept him alive as he had already, at his threat of "spilling the beans", been paid "bribe money". I feel that this "clever weasel" had protected himself against "termination", by letting it be well known that, his "untimely death" would RELEASE the "truths of which he had proof", regarding JFK ! The question that I mentioned .... is really not a question at all! We all understand the stratospheric level of money and power that has and does control the media. The "talking heads", are for the most part, mere mechanics who who could not fill the employment positions of a great many members of this forum. What I QUESTION most strongly is the "WHY" that we "free" Americans, continue to endorse and re-elect to power those hundreds of "purchased puppets", that comprise our joint houses of Congress ? Without their acknowledgement, approval and "absolutely obvious SELL OUT" to those "higher than HEAVENLY powers"....the truth would be where it was meant to be.....in the hands of we the "governing governed" ! This is what hundreds of thousands of young men thought that they were sacrificing their lives for ! Charles Black

Hello Charles I agree in general with the comments offered to your post. If this ONLY could be brought before an honest and well screened GJ, the results would lead to the process which would prove conspiracy. Regarding amnesty....I feel that it may have never worked. I strongly feel that, except at the "highest" level, those within the government, other than a few thugs, truly believed themselves Patriots of the highest order, in their participation in the removal of Kennedy (Kennedys). I feel that they believed that JFK's removal was absolutely essential to the interests of National Security. These "patriots" would not have sold out! Charles Black

I have little to add of any true significance to this excellent thread. Just a couple of off the wall personal observations and beliefs, which have so deeply imbedded themselves within me that they have become my bed partner. I must mention an area that grates my senses almost to the extent of someone running their finger nails across a chalk board. I don't know whether to finger this as a natural result of capitalism, or the human desire to win. I won't enter any detail, as I have previously done so on several ocassions. To even further confuse myself, I am an avid proponent of both however! Any reasonable insight into our captitalistic system; along with all of the wonderful and admirable rewards which it brings to us....we must realize that it, by its very ultra competitive nature, insists that for one to succeed and advance, one must WIN! Thus my problem ! The attitude of "MUST WIN" actually wreaks havoc with , at least "my theory", of Justice. I am not posting this as another attack on the legal profession, in which many very high minded and honorable people may be found throughout. But there is an area within this system that in my opinion is extremely suspect. That area is that aspect of this system which deals with the prosecution of a defendant. In all areas of our society, as well as in societies that are not considered as "free": success is measured by accomplishment. The will to succeed in our respective fields is what motivates one to forge ahead, and it is only thru success in our endeavors, are we able to truly achieve both personal as well as social and usually monetary satisfaction. In order to advance in their field, particularly the prosecutory field, ONE MUST "WIN" at any cost. It is possible for some attorneys, tho not prosecutors, to win only one case in a hundred and yet earn enough money to retire. A government prosecutor, like an athlete, in order to achieve any degree of success, must win.....not necessarily "serve justice"....but only WIN. Many quite honest defendants have paid the "ultimate price"! Vince Bugliosi, as a result of his excellent winning record, "earned" a berth in the legal "Super Bowl".....and he WON. As a perceived "World Champ", he became financially rewarded by a great many different sources, to the extent that he could retire from the active legal profession while only in his early forties. This "retirement" did not result from his salary as a government prosecutor. His advancement had little to do with the seeking of justice; BUT much to do with winning...particularly the "BIG ONE". I truly mean this only as an observation and not a criticism...but Mr. B., throughout his career, sought to be and was in fact, a "winner". He chose to pursue "winning", as perhaps might my competitive nature demand of me, rather than "justice"! I see nothing more in keeping with that original decision than his latest, and perhaps final, major undertaking. Why should anyone find this strange or uncharacteristic? Please believe me that I am not averse to agressively pursuing wealth. But I feel that we "are all" responsible to at least recognize it in its uncamouflaged form. Some probably question the "Price in Honor" of such a pursuit, in which one strives to prove that which he truly cannot believe. To a great many however, the ends most always justify the means. Probably some deeper thinkers may question or dispute the definition of "success", generally accepted by our and many societies. I myself am unable to define it, and am therefore not in a position to criticise. Societal hierarchies impose some demanding criteria for the judgement of "success". Mr. Bugliosi's book, in my opinion, should not be considered as anything but a continuation of his much earlier decision! I did hope however,before reading this monstrosity, that he would have been able to do "A Much Better Job"! But then when thinking more seriously, he was limited by the HORRIBLE TRUTH from which there is no escape ! There will never be "The Proper Job" as we are limited by the truth and fact of CONSPIRACY! Charles Black

Nice work Bernice The more that one looks into this situation, it should be apparent, that as a result of several of what appear to be questionable or incorrect statements by Agent Kellerman, his own LACK of the correct action which should have been taken, and only HIS testimony that he told Greer to "go forward" (which for reasons previously mentioned by myself was unsound), that the "Blame" which is now being directed toward Agent Greer totally lacks any reasonable substantiation. Yes ! Greer did "look backward" as an automatic reflex, which would no doubt have been duplicated by ANY "human being" driver, in a like situation. I remain, if possible, even more convinced of my previous statements! Charles Black

Hello everyone I am being attacked continuously for attempting to state, that Secret Service Training, cannot differ from miltary training established over eons, to best handle an unexpected attack from a force of possible superior strength, from a highly superior "most likely position". Please stop for a moment! In those couple of seconds, all that was realized by the two SS men in the limo was that gunfire, " a flurry of shots" was entering their vehicle. No one was able to determine the "exact" position of the incoming fire. The most likely position, that these tactically trained agents should probably immediately and logically surmise, since there is a strong possibility that a bullet came thru the windshield, and since there were a group of persons ahead and above on the overpass....where NO ONE should be... and since this was ideal ambush positioning.... "should have been" that they were headed their prescious "cargo" directly IN HARMS WAY. I have never stated that ANY action would or even could have saved JFK's life. This ambush was meant to "kill him". His life possibly would not have been saved had he even had an "ejection seat". My statement did not infer that ANYTHING would have saved his life. And for those of you who have chosen me as an object for a "feeding frenzy", you should open your eyes and re-read exactly what I have said. Greer and Kellerman did not have in their minds, military style ambush with triangulation of fire ! They "seemed to be" proceding directly into gunfire." I feel that the logical and reasonable actions should have been for Greer, while veering the vehicle and stopping to have been shouting for everyone to evacuate the vehicle. Kellerman should have been attempting to cover the President, if he even had to "go thru" Mr. & Mrs, Connally. The stopping of the vehicle would have allowed the SS back up vehicle to also stop and send all agents to cover the President and assist in removing all from the vehicle. This may have SAVED no one....but was much more in keeping with "protection" than "full speeed ahead" into the ambush...."Custer was very WRONG". For some reason I am being attacked also for using the word "I". "I" use it because it is not at times necessary for me to quote a premise from a book. You should be appreciative, not critical, when forum members can speak from knowledge, training and experience.....and not be posting a "hypothesis". "I" have never said that the Secret Service turned in an admirable performance on 11/22/63. "I" have said that many who absolutely are expressing opinions regarding matters, of which they have neither training or experience, are speaking only to hear their own voices. I am not attempting to praise Mr. Greer or the Secret Service' general performance. I am attempting to prevent you from creating false, patsied, "scapegoats" since you have nothing credible to add that is reasonable. And again for my "critics"! When "I" personally know something, "I" will continue to use the first person. When expressing a "belief" rather than fact, I will indicate that it is a personal opinion....which I think that I am allowed to have. When quoting others, I will so reference. I am sorry that many of you take offense when you realize that there are many who have helped shape history, in their small way, rather than merely "reading" about it. I offer no apologies for what I perceive to be the truth that I have offered here and in other posts. As I am not an educator as such, I am accustomed to addressing my audiences on a level field, with both my knowledge and beliefs.....without requiring that anyone accept either. I will continue this practice. I have stated nothing in the course of this thread that is untrue or that I feel is "unsound". You should believe whatever fantasy that you damned well choose to ! Good luck in your "quest for excuses"! I shall continue to seek truth....wherever it falls ! Have a very good day ! Charles Black

Chuck I being a person who has had extensive training and actual experience in similar matters.....I find your statemets as ridiculous as ANY that I have Ever read on this forum. You for some absolutely ridiculous reason, in my pretty qualified opinion, stated "There was but one choice available to the driver, or, any driver in that predicament....Forward at speed....and hope for the best." Get serious Chuck....Do you believe that anyone is TRAINED to go "forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST" ? ? Perhaps this should be followed by "Damn the torpedoes, Full speed ahead"! I hope that you have reconsidered the ridiculousness of what you stated. Do you believe that anyone giving tactical training since the beginning of time, would consider his student so stupid as to tell him anything like that? Then you followed with a statement that possibly even overshadows your previous one. "...lets put aside all talk about history...about training....about panic...etc." Why should ANYONE EVER put aside History and Training and just... "Forward at speed and HOPE FOR THE BEST". Is this how you would train persons who were dependent on you? This "aint even done" in a ball game. With responses such as yours, I doubt that I should remain on this forum. You are making the "Education Forum" an adaptation of "Looney Tunes". This isn't even a debate ! Charles Black

Hello everyone I will again make a xxxx of myself by offering another set of comments. First of all, there is and have been thousands of words of testimony regarding those few "seconds" of the actual shooting event. Some, as in most everything in this case, is inconsistent with others, and can be the "attempted" true remembrance of what persons at least "thought" that they heard. To me, it is extremely unlikely that Kellerman lied regarding his belief that Kennedy stated that he was hit. It is also likely that Kellerman shortly later stated, before somewhat changing it, that a "flurry of shots" entered the vehicle. Folks, you may argue this if yo care to, but Audie Murphy would have been immediately shaken and confused if "a flurry of shots" had entered "his" vehicle....tho I have heard no one ever question Mr. Murphy's courage, cool headedness and experience "under fire". If everyone would take a step back...NO ONE knows the exact words and orders spoken in that vehicle or what was "heard". Some of you are extending these very few brief seconds, probably because of lack of a similar experience, into what you in your minds, have contrived to have been a long enough period of time for a period of "rational thinking to have been occurring in the "actual panic" that enveloped all of those within that vehicle. I "know" that in situations such as these, combatants "instinctively act in the manner in which they were trained". Ball players in a game, play in the manner which they practiced (by instinct) as there is not time for prolonged thought. Robert Davidson; I in no way found your comments out of order, tho not applicable to THIS situation. Officers, those in charge, are trained to never deliberately react to an ambush, or assault, by blindly charging an enemy of unknown force, who is "holding the high ground", who knows clearly your position, strength and range, and is raking your troops with gunfire. The action called for is to spread and not naturally huddle, cover yourselves, return fire, and determine whether to go forward, retreat, flank the enemy, or call for support as the situation is being given "a few more seconds" to be asessed! To the best of all of my study of these few seconds, Greer, by veering the car out of its path and atempting to stop, was the only "sound" secret service action taken by anyone other than Youngblood and Hill. I feel that many of you, as I stated before, are: A) expanding the conspiracy beyond logical reason, to include persons who were at too low a level, to have logically been actively involved. Had this been a " conspiracy of thousands"...this case would have long been solved. attempting to find anyone (a patsy) who is much easier to finger than those elevated "masters of covert operations". This is a human flaw, to attempt to find a person to blame / convict, when the true criminal/criminals have been more intelligent than the investigators. This is the WHY of a great many innocent persons who are legally convicted....It is a human desire to WIN....TO AID in "solving" the case. An attempt to find a cause, a bad guy, even if it is inwardly known to be a "Patsy", gives we flawed humans, some degree of relief. I feel that few who have posted on this topic, truly have experienced and cannot even imagine the trauma that occurred, in that appx. sixteen square feet which surrounded JFK, at 12:30 CST on 11/22/63, during those six to nine seconds in question. Kellerman "heard JFK speak" and Mrs. Kennedy had no recollection of her movement onto the trunk of the vehicle......this is how truly assured some of you are in what, "you know", transpired. Neither You, I, John & Nellie Connally, Jackie, Greer, Kellerman, the motorcycle officers, or the follup up vehicle filled with SS agents only a few yards behind ...."KNOW", even 43 years later, neither the sequence nor the timing of events. However, many of you on this forum, ABSOLUTELY KNOW that what prompted Greer, was a desire to see "The President Dead". This is called the "Education Forum". God cannot even imagine, what those poor "Uneducated" researchers must assume ! I suppose that since it has been "proven" that agent Greer did not actually SHOOT The President, as has been frequently claimed....this must be presumed a "good alternative". Charles Black

I hate to be so graphic, but I nearly vomit when I see my wife, kids etc. watching Fox News. They are a COMPLETE SELLOUT which should be obvious to even avid neo cons! Although I realize that De M. was undergoing some severe mental problems....the exact timing of this death, his probable role in the Oswald set up, and his undependability due to his mental state, in my mind, indicate a "most neccessary elimination" of this forthcoming witness ! He could have spilled the entire bean pot ! Charles Black

Hello John You, as everyone, is of course entitled to their personal opinion. However, since I cannot even begin to understand some of the members reasoning, that as I have stated, I think, four different times....that if you wish to dispel and overide ALL military and tactical reasoning, which this EXACT reasoning has been established by, and followed by, the best military minds in recorded history ...... I accept that you have that right! Perhaps it is time that these "very old" tactics should be set aside in favor of twenty first century genius. At any rate, I have attempted to point out what I was once taught....tho perhaps now it is antiquated. I would not like it said that I am attempting to stymy "progress" ! Since all that I can offer is what has been proven, since the recording of history, to have been absolutely sound and unquestioned strategy, except here on this advanced forum.....I feel that I have nothing more to offer. I was not attemptng to advance "A Personal Opinion". I was simply trying to educate those who were perhaps fortunate enough to not have undergone the same type of training that was required of me. I suppose however, it is difficult for a non educator, to attempt to educate the already truly educated. You should believe whatever it is that makes you happy ! Charles Black

Hello Stephen I, in most part, must disagree with you. Yes! I agree that there were of course contingency plans, as there are in all military operations. BUT...and it is a big BUT....only if shots were "Not Fired" in Dealey Plaza. Once "shots were fired"....it was absolutely imperative that he be killed "there". Nothing which would have followed this attempted assassination, could have been pre planned if it was unsuccessful. ALL plans and procedures regarding JFK would, by obvious neccessity, be changed immediately.....Probably a direct route to Love Field! However, if for some reason, the "Shoot" in Dealey Plaza was aborted, there no doubt was another plan set up, posssibly at the luncheon, or after ! I do not believe that there were additonal shooting locales established beyond Dealey Plaza. This is just a personal opinion, however, I feel that there might have been one "prior" to Dealey that "was aborted" in favor of waiting for Dealey. Charles Black

Shanet Your comment is stated in such a decidedly decisive and convincing manner, I suppose that you would not mind sharing with some of we, "the less experienced" members, the training procedure which you apparently have experienced, that is in conflict with centuries old, more common directives. For those of you who have studied military history, this was similar to General George Custer's last miltary directive. He ordered a "charge" without knowing the position or strength of his enemy. It has been universally condemned since June 26, 1876 by all tactical authority ! These tactics are not merely centuries old...but have been followed for millenia! Perhaps you are aware of "better procedure". Why do some of you insist on arguing with very well accepted professional reason? These are not "My Personal" opinions. Charles Black

Hello Mark An excellent analogy. In football, for example, if all of the offensive players complete their assignments, the play which is called would pick up the yardage that it was designed to. But a simple error such as a receiver misreading a defense, can place him in a position which negates the successful completion of a play....even if the receiver in question is an "All Pro". As Kennedy pointed out "....we are all mortal" ! The receiver having made a mistake; should lead no sensible person to believe that the player was being paid to "throw the game".... as well as the offensive lineman who did not interpret the defensive scheme correctly, and "missed his necessary block" ! This type of event is evidence that the world's most acknowledged players, who are the best that money can buy....."all have limitations"! As do government agents ! Charles Black

Hello Peter Finally a reasonable response ! I would like it generally known that I have no personal interest in defending Greer, other than I hate to see someone being made a "scapegoat" for trying to follow what was no doubt his training procedures. I was also tired of, for thirty years being told, that his "lack of proper reaction" was due to his "advanced age". As I mentioned in another post, he was only eight years older than John Kennedy and I don't feel that this made him either physically or mentally incapable of followng the accepted procedures. This man has even been seriously accused of becoming invisible for a few seconds, to all of the occupants of the limo, and shooting the President himself ! Regardless, it was not a "Proud Day" for the Secret Service as a whole ! There were many things that "could have" been done in a more acceptible manner....but not only by the Secret Service. Of all of the DPD and Sherrifs Dept. personnel.....no one returned fire or knew in which direction to point a weapon ! Charles Black

Michael Your immediately prior post should grade out as quite irrational to anyone that has followed this thread ! You are implying that you did not "strongly" intimate that Greer was a part of the conspiracy. You have further strongly inimated that in the appx. 2 1/2 seconds, maximum, involved, "most" similarly positioned and trained persons Would Have acted differently. You attempt to make it sound as if a lengthy period of time transpired and that Greer was reluctant to proceed because he was attempting to give the gunmen a larger window of opportunity. I don't "know" that Greer was told "twice" in this minimal time period to "move out". I do know that it would have been "the improper" judgement that would DEFY all reasonable military procedure. It was improper procedure for Kellerman to not have attempted to reach JFK. I feel, as I stated before, Greer's actions were instinctive (as a result of procedure) to not stupidly approach an ambush! I have no animous toward you Michael, but it seems that you are one of those many persons that, although you have no training or actual experience in such a military type situation, has decided that you know more regarding military tactics and response, than persons such as Robert E. Lee, Erwin Rommel, Napolean, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Sun Tsu and inumerable other very successful military tacticians. In my opinion, you are simply entering an area of discussion in which the farther you attempt to proceed, the more of a fool that you make of youself. You act as if you know more than those persons who "HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT".....because you have an "opinion". Nothing more! Obviously "NO" related training and ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE ! Yet...YOU are the knowing one ! If I have insulted you, I am sorry....BUT, you have begged for it ! Charles Black

Everyone Please do not mis perceive my comments regarding Greer's actions. I am not in any way stating that if Greer had Immediately accelerated, that it is not "possible" that the fatal bullet may have missed. I also have never questioned Mr. Palmara's most in depth secret service study. My point was "Completely Different". Some of you are attempting to "ASSERT" that Greer slowed and looked twice to the rear because he was a knowing and active participant to the murder......both I AND Mr. Palmara disagree. He was not an ACTIVE CONSPIRATOR. My contention has only and repeatedly been.....that unless Secret Service Training was DIFFERENT from ANY military crises training in the world....that the Driver who is approaching a potential ambush, already taking incoming fire, and who has as his foremost responsibility, the protection of his cargo....he is not to charge into an enemy of "unknown strength" that is already firing at him from the ABOVE and forward. This is against all military and crises reasoning and to argue this is "ridiculous" and completely unfounded. The period of time involved MAY have been lengthy enough for Kellerman to have at least been "heading toward the President", which he wasn't. If the car stopped completely and then immediately accelerated on orders from Kellerman....what do "any of you" think that you could have done were you Greer ? Do you consider yourselves Supermen ? It matters little to me the "hearsay" of what "words" may or may not have been uttered in this time of crises...and at such a time, words mean very little and can often not be remembered. I believe that the OVER ALL Secret Service "lack of response" was grossly negligent and "did" aid in the success of the assassination. But I feel that Greer started to act in direct accordance with military training. I do not see the satisfaction gained by making Greer a scapegoat or trying to expand the Conspiracy to the "lower levels" of Presidential protection. I would look at the "route planning" and approval as much more significant in Conspiracy than Mr. Greer. But....Greer is convenient. I feel that he Instinctively began to take the correct action and was ordered otherwise ! My Point: Greer is not KEY to the conclusion of this case, nor were the SS Agents who were out drinking prior ! We need to raise our sights....as we already have had enough PATSIES ! Charles Black

It is of course distasteful to each of us when we must acknowledge the "truth", that even those whom we hold in semi-religious esteem, are plagued with some of the same flaws which are neccessarily inherent in us all. The acknowledgement that "clean cut" sports or military "heroes" might be capable of cold blooded pre meditated murder.....that a Priest has lustful thoughts and at times may commit criminal deeds....that a seemingly devoted wife and mother can murder her children or husband. These acts and facts can at times cripple us. But they are reality and not bad dreams. These are thoughts and acts that are so universally wrong that we at times must do battle with ourselves to accept their fact. "Most" humans, despite what may be their deeply rooted ethnic or religious training and backgrounds, and even exceptionally high levels of intellect and education, all inherit a "primitivism" which at times propels them to what they themselves consider primitive and selfish behaviour. Not one of our "heroes", has throughout recorded history, been any different. We are, and they have all been, "flawed".....but this does not diminish what were their good works. Charles Black

Craig Lamson I must return to your initial, near endless ramblings. If you are competing with Bugliosi's most recent contribution, which by the way is twice as long as The Warren Commission Report, I must admit that you exhibit similar reasoning and tactics to both he and the Commission. I am not likely to waste any more time with your ramblings than would I today re-read the the W.C. Odyssey, which a majority of scholars throughout the world, realize, and have for forty years "realized", is just that ! I want to briefly touch on just a couple of your ridiculous "non points". Just to counter one of these : what had George Washington accomplished by age 24? Or Abe Lincoln? Immediately prior to the Civil War, future General and U.S. President, Ulyses S.Grant, had been clerking in a hardware store, and General Sherman was diagnosed insane. Or possibly what may have even JFK's accomplishments been; had he been born into different circumstances. I am not a totally unaccomplished person, but other than being educated for more years than Oswald, at the age of 24, no one was placing my name at the head of "Who's Who in America". I would like to mention also, although I have no strong belief in either the existence or non existance of "aliens", Nessie, Big Foot or the authenticity of the Moon Landings.......how in the HELL do any of these topics relate to the Coup d' Etat that obviously, to all "moderately cognizant persons" world wide, occurred on Nov. 22, 1963 ? ? Furthermore, your statements regarding the occurrances of 9 11, indicate to me, that you are no more than a neophyte, who is not even modestly prepared to discuss that issue. Only "an absolute fool", would take it upon himself to engage in the process of "proving the negative".....which is that a Lone Nut did not in fact exist ! In my opinion, your "pointless effort" has proven only, that you must be both very bored and think that a majority of this forum's members are incapable of rational thought. Why don't you find a "HOBBY" in which you are more adept, though how you waste your own time is of course a personal choice. I regret how I have been foolish enough to have allowed you to waste mine ! Charles Black

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I on numerous ocassions during the 1960's, have been "so handcuffed" to a satchel. Flying an aircraft, other than for watching it on "auto pilot" would be impossible...particularly on a military mission. Tho not large, such a satchel is cumbersome enough that one cannot even take off a jacket. Putting on a parachute (if not done so before satchel attachment) would be "impossible" in the event of an air "emergency". I from experience, strongly feel that the thought of his piloting the aircraft should be set aside. There IS something seriously wrong with the various Andy Jack reported actions and reactions which I personally don't feel, at this late date, could ever be resolved. A twenty four hour absence? Yet he wasn't injured enough to investigate the crash site? Given the number of people involved, my military experience would indicate to me that this Was Not a "treasonous" mission. Perhaps things are different in the U.K., but in the U.S., I feel that the "National Security" excuse would be used nearly "eternally".....or until every possible flaw has been without question eliminated. In the U.S., the crash of a "private flight" which concerned the death of a pro JFK conspiracist, Congressman Hale Boggs, over Alaska, is hampered by National Security considerations which MUST be considered as a fabrication. Theoretically, the aircraft was never found. I find this subject very interesting, tho I feel that we might be attacking windmills. Charles Black

Hello all As I firmly believe that what I have posted to be far closer to the truth, than attempting to imply that this was a conspiracy "of so many", that even lower levels of the Secret Service were involved, I certainly can retract nothing. Duke thank you! Perhaps I have finally overcome my life long shyness. Ron. I did answer your questions. If nearly everyone else in the Plaza ackowleged that there were persons on the overpass, and it is confirmed by photographs, why would you propose that Greer did not see them? His "advanced age ? As to his confusing statements....this "long time / old time agent", was no doubt torn between what he was "no doubt" advised to say.....and the traumatization of what he had experienced. I attempt to sort, the "ideals" from the reality", of very confusing and passionate experiences. His statements did not come some 43 years later in the confines of a forum. He was confused.....as should everyone have been. Persons can be trained for potential situations....the stark reality of "sudden trauma" is not one of them. Chuck. You are right. I am a little overly passionate regarding what I sincerely believe to be a misrepresentation of what occurred. I believe that Greer, as reported by some, "repositioned the autombile in the street, and followed the correct impulse to stop", before heading directly into what may have been armed assailants who were both forward and above. Why do you "Greer Condemners" feel that it would have been inappropriate to stop and "clear the vehicle of its occupants". What type of training, that is so advanced from mine, taught you to "charge an unknown enemy force", when your primary duty was the protection of your "cargo" ? Peter. I feel that I both am and that I act like a man, who has been more highly trained in, and exposed to situations which "most of you" have not. From where does your "tactical proficiency derive? Is it "acceptance of, popular but false perceptions", that separates real men from those unfortunates like myself ? I appreciate what was meant to be the derogatory type of replies which I expected and consequently received. The repetition of my thought process, has even further convinced me that my initial observations and opinions were and are correct. There are a great many people who have actually "done" what a great many of you have experienced only in a classroom or from pages of a book. Please however, do not asuume that just because some have "experienced".... that they have failed to study the "same books" to which you have been exposed. I remain even more sincere regarding my comments, if that is possible, than my initial postings. As I previously indicated, there is no reason for me to post further on this subject, as some of you already have "The Only Answers Which Would Satisfy You". If it pleases you, please continue to believe that Greer and Kellerman were an integral part of the "Conspiracy".....and furthermore, JFK would probably still be alive, had these S S agents been exposed to the same combat experience as you no doubt have. Please continue with your well founded theories, and merely pardon my brief interruption ! Charles Black

I hope that I don't anger too many of you, however, my personal opinion only, is that some of you are going far out of you way to bolster the plans of the major conspirators, by placing the blame on lesser people who had no inkling of what was transpiring. This is getting so ridiculous that I will make a few more comments and then remove myself from further discussion. This is not so dissimilar from the plan to remove U.S. government personnel and assets as participants in the shooting and placing the blame on foreign villains such as mafia and Cubans. The thought of participation by WASPS is unacceptable to the delicate perceptions of some of you. Many of you are very quick to point fingers for "any ridiculous reason". OF COURSE on orders from the Presidential protection team, there was every right for the DPD, the Secret Service, The FBI etc. to CLEAR any area deemed necessary for Presidential protection...if necessary by physical or deadly force. To argue otherwise is ABSURD. YES ! The advance vehicles "should have radioed to the following vehicles to stop until they secured the area". If there was a "breach of security" it was much more likely in this area than attempting to blame the SS agents in the Presidents vehicle for hesitating to "drive into an ambush". Do any of you who believe Greer and Kellerman to have been cowards, think that "these cowards" would have voluntarily and knowingly been in a vehicle that they knew was to come under "heavy incoming gunfire"? My problem with many posters on this forum, and I don't care how much you dislike this, is that you are too accustomed to opening your big mouths before opening your unknowing minds. It appears that most of you who very obviously know little or nothing about neither "security" nor military operations, become self proclaimed experts....based soley on what you have been steered toward by those other "unknowings" or deceptors which preceded you. I now think that some of you "intellects" should notify the moderators of another stupid "uncultured American", that is DISRUPTING the forum and insinuating that some members of this forum "allow their FINGERS to handle their thinking". Charles Black P.S. What is amazing to me, is that the female members of this forum, seem far more in tune to the reality of security and military matters than many of you "gentlemen scholars"! Too many opinions ! Too little "experience" in the realities of crises behaviour !