Jim Hargrove

What is remarkable about the FBI's behavior in this remarkable case is that its agents, within 72 hours of the assassination, were confiscating ALL of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" teenage employment and school records,

That is just not the case. The law required that the school records be obtained via the school boards - and that's exactly what happened. They were not "confiscated" which is a term meant to mislead people into believing there was something nefarious about obtaining those records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCz5_bd3R6g

Jon... it's really quite simple. The FBI took the originals of all the school records and submitted copies as evidence (as if the boys Jr High school records were necessary to solving the case)

We find this SOP in every aspect of the evidence.

As you know, DJ, it's remarkable how many experienced researchers are still unaware of the FBI's work cooking the evidence less than 24 hours after the assassination. Many researchers still don't know that, in the wee hours of the night of Nov. 22/Nov. 23, the FBI secretly confiscated all of Oswald's "possessions" from Dallas Police Headquarters, flew them to D.C. in the dead of night, played with them for three long days, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, all before "Oswald's possessions" were OFFICIALLY handed over to the FBI on November 26!

I'm still not allowed to upload any graphics here, but the proof of this secret transfer is shown by the WC/FBI's alteration of the testimony of James Cadigan. That altered testimony can be seen here, about halfway down the page:

http://harveyandlee.net/FBI/FBI.html

What is remarkable about the FBI's behavior in this remarkable case is that its agents, within 72 hours of the assassination, were confiscating ALL of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" teenage employment and school records, before even attempting to discover if other high ranking government officials were in danger of assassination, or if the assassination involved conspirators other than the official patsy. ALL of the original versions of the teenage Oswald records, by the way, forever disappeared. Not a single original document remains in the National Archives. This gets at, among so many other things, what all those HSCA handwriting experts were complaining about when they said they were not shown original documents.

Thanks for doing so much heavy lifting on this school records stuff.

Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. We agree on a lot, and I'll try to get back asap with a more complete follow-up, but here are just three quick rebuttal points:

• First, I'm pretty sure that Robert Webster was not even in the Navy, and so it seems unlikely that the managers of both his and Oswald's parallel false defections called ONI their home.
• Second, Gerald Ford's description of The Commission's "First Shock" was hardly the same as the accusation made by Mr. Tanenbaum. In Portrait of the Assassin, Mr. Ford claims only that Carr made the charge that Oswald was an "undercover agent" for the FBI. He leaves the accusation of CIA involvement up to Marguerite. It's funny, though, that throughout the remainder of the book, Ford fails to directly and positively refute either accusation.
• Last, just because the Oswalds were not CIA Officers is hardly an indication that they weren't what we would call full time employees.

This is a very enjoyable talk, and I hope we can keep it going. Thanks again!

Sure, Tracy, but if we all believed the U.S. government could be trusted investigating itself, none of us would be here.

Well, Jim, I've also read that before. Some try to use that quote to prove that Marina Oswald was fluent in English back in Russia, and so her troubles with English in the USA were all a sham.

But that's pushing too hard with too little data. Some dude heard Marina Oswald speak a few words of English, in some social gathering in Russia, and concluded that she spoke English "fluently?" Where's the scientific testing?

Almost any American can speak a few words of Spanish in a social gathering in the USA, but would be like a fish out of water if they were in Mexico City talking to a cab driver.

Without scientific testing, such anecdotal evidence is a weak foundation to conclude that Marina was "fluent" in English. Also, it's virtually impossible to FAKE trouble with a foreign language. Also, Marina was a teenager when she married Lee Harvey Oswald -- so its very unlikely that she was already a skilled superspy.

Also, Marina's confusion of Oswald's background with Webster's background isn't really unusual; she knew Oswald very little time before they were married -- and no Russian teenage girls were virgins in the USSR. The fact that her uncle was affiliated with the KGB may have influenced her social life, but she married poorly with Lee Harvey Oswald -- I think she'd agree when she was in Fort Worth, under the sneering eyes of Oswald's mother. So, this wasn't part of any spy planning. It was dumb fate.

No -- the evidence suggests that Oswald was poor as a Church mouse, and struggling like thunder to get a good paying job to support his growing family. Oswald was desperate, really, but he truly believed he could get a job with the CIA if he just did MORE.

Yet Oswald had left the USSR like a Maverick -- my guess is that his contract with the ONI wasn't yet finished when he left -- and that is why his Marine discharge was downgraded -- and why he never got that job with the CIA that he had been promised.

Sorry -- he doesn't look or quack like a duck to me, Jim. Instead, Lee Harvey Oswald looks and sounds like a CIA "wannabe" from start to finish.

There is no way that Oswald could have been made the Patsy of the JFK murder if he was a bona fide CIA Officer.

The best explanation -- using Occam's Razor -- for Oswald being the JFK Patsy is that he got too close to the fire and got burned, i.e. he craved for a job in the CIA, and so he fell prey to liars and plotters who used this weakness to exploit him for evil.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

We may just have to agree to disagree, Paul, but to me the connection of “Lee Harvey Oswald” to the CIA is obvious both by circumstantial evidence and by sworn testimony. In fact, I argue (as John A. does more thoroughly) that what CIA accountant James Wilcott called “the Oswald Project” was, in fact, a creation of American Intelligence involving two young men using the same identity. But let's back up a bit….

You wrote that Oswald “never got that job with the CIA he had been promised.” That is an interesting thought, but it is hard to accept that all he did was done as part of some elaborate job application. That strikes me as unlikely. Although Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was indeed, as you say, poor as a church mouse most of his short life, it is weird how well he travelled to Russia, staying at top-notch European hotels and hiring expensive private tour guides once in Moscow. There is no evidence that he ever before or after lived so well. The Warren Commision told us Oswald used his Marine Corps income to finance—barely-- his “defection,” but failed to tell us that much of that income was in non-convertible military script.

The information on Robert Webster was not included primarily to discuss Marina's English skills but to show that the striking similarites of the false “defections” of Robert Webster and “Lee Harvey Oswald,” strongly suggesting that both were under the same management. Can you suggest any managerial candidates other than the CIA? Why wasn't Oswald arrested for espionage when he returned to the U.S? Why was he allowed by the U.S. to “defect” yet again just weeks before the assassination of JFK?

CIA accountant James Wilcott swore under oath in secret testimony to the HSCA that he was told by other CIA employees at his station in Japan that money he had personally disbursed to an encrypted account was for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.” HSCA counsel Robert Tanenbaum testified to the ARRB that he read a WC secret transcript of a conversation in which the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney, and Leon Jaworsky, counsel to the Attorney General, told Earl Warren that Oswald was a contract agent of both the CIA and the FBI.

You wrote, “There is no way that Oswald could have been made the Patsy of the JFK murder if he was a bona fide CIA Officer.”

Oswald was hardly a bona fide CIA officer. Instead, the evidence suggests he was a paid operative, of both the FBI and the CIA. And here's where the evil genious of the assassination plot becomes most clear.

No doubt we will both agree that if you are plotting to murder the president of the United States, you simply have to have a pre-ordained fall guy. If not, the hunt for you will be relentless. It will not stop until you're caught. Unless you can figure out a way to shut down the investigation quickly, you will be doomed. What better way than to pick a patsy, and plant some evidence, even if it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny, against a guy with ties to both Hoover's FBI and the CIA? Assuming he wasn't one of the plotters, what do you suppose Hoover's reaction was when he realized that his own contract employee had been set up for the hit?

Does anyone here disagree that the "Oswald project," as CIA accountant James Wilcott referred to it, was a creation of American Intelligence?

My point is, REASON IS NOT THE CURE, because Armstrong is more interested in book sales and market share than in the TRUTH, or anything to do with logic anymore.

On the contrary -- he's having a laugh -- all the way to the bank.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Anyone who knows how wealthy John Armstrong is (from his oil business and his custom home building work) would know that the income from book sales are irrelevant to his true wealth.

Yo, Porker,

John A's newest research... about the two Steven Landesbergs... will be ready for publication as early as tomorrow or Monday, and will be posted RIGHT HERE, along with the newest DEFECTION PHOTO info and TONSILS REPORT data on LHO.

Again, Porker (YOU LOOK SO MUCH THINNER IN YOUR BS PHOTO) ... please make posts soon along the lines of your FRANKENSTEIN OSWALD!! And by all means... DON'T CLICK HERE!

And remember....

WE LOVE YOU!!!

Bye-bye...

Well, Greg, there's a certain amount of truth to that, if only a little. Your work inspired me to vastly expand the 1959 "Defection" photo section... all the orginal stuff is still there, and much more.

See it here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Defection_Photo_Evolution.html

and here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

And, for the hundreds and hundreds of posts you've made here and elsewhere discussing Oswald's Magic Tonsils, I've decided to put the tonsillectomy evidence back up on the website ASAP. Should be ready in a day or two. Just wanted to make it clear how helpful you have been. Thanks!

Yo, Parker ....

Now that this "Frankenstein Oswald" thread has backfired on you so horribly, what is your new plan?

Do you have one?

Please post it ASAP, so we can destroy it, too!

WE WANT TO ENGAGE... ESPECIALLY WITH YOU. AND PLEASE REMEMBER....

WE LOVE YOU!!

Also, don't forget your usual advice ... DO NOT CLICK HERE!

Magic Tonsils coming back real soon!

Well, Greg, there's a certain amount of truth to that, if only a little. Your work inspired me to vastly expand the 1959 "Defection" photo section... all the orginal stuff is still there, and much more.

See it here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Defection_Photo_Evolution.html

and here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

And, for the hundreds and hundreds of posts you've made here and elsewhere discussing Oswald's Magic Tonsils, I've decided to put the tonsillectomy evidence back up on the website ASAP. Should be ready in a day or two. Just wanted to make it clear how helpful you have been. Thanks!

Well, Jim, I've also read that before. Some try to use that quote to prove that Marina Oswald was fluent in English back in Russia, and so her troubles with English in the USA were all a sham.

But that's pushing too hard with too little data. Some dude heard Marina Oswald speak a few words of English, in some social gathering in Russia, and concluded that she spoke English "fluently?" Where's the scientific testing?

Almost any American can speak a few words of Spanish in a social gathering in the USA, but would be like a fish out of water if they were in Mexico City talking to a cab driver.

Without scientific testing, such anecdotal evidence is a weak foundation to conclude that Marina was "fluent" in English. Also, it's virtually impossible to FAKE trouble with a foreign language. Also, Marina was a teenager when she married Lee Harvey Oswald -- so its very unlikely that she was already a skilled superspy.

Also, Marina's confusion of Oswald's background with Webster's background isn't really unusual; she knew Oswald very little time before they were married -- and no Russian teenage girls were virgins in the USSR. The fact that her uncle was affiliated with the KGB may have influenced her social life, but she married poorly with Lee Harvey Oswald -- I think she'd agree when she was in Fort Worth, under the sneering eyes of Oswald's mother. So, this wasn't part of any spy planning. It was dumb fate.

No -- the evidence suggests that Oswald was poor as a Church mouse, and struggling like thunder to get a good paying job to support his growing family. Oswald was desperate, really, but he truly believed he could get a job with the CIA if he just did MORE.

Yet Oswald had left the USSR like a Maverick -- my guess is that his contract with the ONI wasn't yet finished when he left -- and that is why his Marine discharge was downgraded -- and why he never got that job with the CIA that he had been promised.

Sorry -- he doesn't look or quack like a duck to me, Jim. Instead, Lee Harvey Oswald looks and sounds like a CIA "wannabe" from start to finish.

There is no way that Oswald could have been made the Patsy of the JFK murder if he was a bona fide CIA Officer.

The best explanation -- using Occam's Razor -- for Oswald being the JFK Patsy is that he got too close to the fire and got burned, i.e. he craved for a job in the CIA, and so he fell prey to liars and plotters who used this weakness to exploit him for evil.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Although I'm still looking for one more photo, the Harvey and Lee Website's expanded coverage of the "Frankenstein Oswald" image used by a Ft. Worth newspaper covering Harvey Oswald's so-called "defection" is essentially complete.

The "Evolution of the 'Defection' Photo" page can be seen here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Defection_Photo_Evolution.html

There is also a shorter version of this information on the above link's parent page:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

Thanks go to David Josephs for his valuable help providing additional images and to Greg Parker for bringing up the subject in the first place.

OCCAMS RAZOR DOES NOT APPLY IN SPY CRAFT . The public never ever really looked into the spy game except via fiction prior to 11/22/63 = The Duck was to appear to be a Duck. However with connecting the dots via government agency spy documents (the public never ever saw before),the duck is really TWO ducks and a masquerade IS exposed. Thus Hargrove is right in the context of a deeper document/witness examination.

gaal quack quack

More on the CIA's James Jesus Angleton. Alberto Gutierrez writes: "Angleton is credited with coining the term "Wilderness of Mirrors " meaning the confusion of the world of intelligence and espionage. He wrote that the "Wilderness of Mirrors "consists of the myriad stratagems, deceptions and all the other devices of disinformation that the Soviet Union and its coordinated intelligence services used to confuse and split the West, producing an ever-fluid landscape where fact and illusion merge. The term was used by David Martin as the tittle of his book about Angleton, Wilderness of Mirrors. (Seeley)

Mods....

"David's crap" is about the only truth here. Are you really surrendering this whole site to Greg Parker and his minions? Will you NEVER stop the BLEEDING?

Are you saying that you agree that "Lee Harvey Oswald" or the "Oswald Project" or whatever we should call it was a creature of American Intelligence??!!

My bet is that you clearly don't have permission to say that, even way down there in Australia!

Hi, Paul,

Yes, thank you, I've heard and read that position before, often presented by people who know every bit or more about this case than I do. But I simply find the explanation unlikely. After all, Occam's razor would suggest that if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck--rather than something else masquerading as one or trying to somehow become one. My opinion is that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald trained for his entire adult (and almost adult) life for his undercover assignment in Russia, and when he failed to impress the Comrades-in-charge there, he was so despondent that he tried, or almost tried, to commit suicide. That's pretty far to go for a wannabe.

I posted this once before, so please forgive the repetition, but here is one of my favorite short passages from Harvey and Lee:

Don't you get it? This is all a SPY GAME! Someone, probably one of those numerous CIA media assets we've all heard about, got the newspaper to post a washed-out version of the photo so people, at least at some point, wouldn't recognize the spy games that were being played. Not until John A came up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo from AP/Wide World did the full scope of what had occurred come to light. It's speculation, but John suspects Hugh Aynesworth as the guy who got the ball rolling with the wash-out photo.

"Someone"? "Probably"? "Speculation"?

And all that was needed was for someone to come up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo and the whole plot comes tumbling down.

SPY GAMES?

Utter madness...

Right! Thinking "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a SPY is UTTER MADNESS!!!

I believe you!!! Let's review why you are so right about this....

So here's our Russian-speaking kid, who "defects" to Russia traveling with the non-convertible military script he'd saved from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist. On a Saturday, when the U.S. embassy in Moscow simply can't do much business, he unsuccessfully denounces his U.S. citizenship and says he'll tell the Russkies everything he knows, which apparently would include knowledge from his days as a U.S. Marine Communist monitoring top secret U-2 flights in Japan. When Russian authorities are apparently unimpressed by his Communist tendencies, they tell him to go home, forcing our boy to attempt "suicide."

When he eventually does go home, the State Department loans him the money to get here. Instead of being arrested for espionage, our favorite Marine Communist soon moves to New Orleans and starts hanging out with virulent anti-communists, where he expresses his deep love for Cuba and Castro. Before traveling to Dallas to become a self-proclaimed world-famous patsy, he allegedly is allowed by the U.S. to travel to Mexico City, where he could "defect" yet again!

Lee Harvey Oswald a SPY?? HOW CAN YOU EVEN CONSIDER IT?? UTTER MADNESS INDEED!!

Figures... So tell me Bernie, in between the whining can you tell me where I embellished anything.

Odio says they introduced him as Leon Oswald, twice.

Greg claims the surname "Oswald" was NEVER used

This is a simple thing Bernie... and incase you haven't figured it out... you're both minion and a sheep trying so hard to be taken seriously - at least you went thru the post and showed your character manipulation skills

Well done !!

Does the man in the FWST photo look ANYTHING like a man who was impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald?

Yes or no.

Why won't you answer that?

What are you so scared of revealing?

Insults won't change your inability to answer that question...

Thank you for making our point! No, the man in the FWST "defection" photo does not look much like "Lee Harvey Oswald." Why, because it has OBVIOUSLY been messed with. The original photo (EF software won't allow me to post any graphics right now) of American-born Lee Oswald standing in front of barracks of some sort does show a man who looks reasonably like the guy shot by Jack Ruby, but the image for the "Defection" photo has been altered.

Don't you get it? This is all a SPY GAME! Someone, probably one of those numerous CIA media assets we've all heard about, got the newspaper to post a washed-out version of the photo so people, at least at some point, wouldn't recognize the spy games that were being played. Not until John A came up with a little cash to buy the "retransmission" photo from AP/Wide World did the full scope of what had occurred come to light. It's speculation, but John suspects Hugh Aynesworth as the guy who got the ball rolling with the wash-out photo.

Your theory seems to be, the more unlikely something is to have happened, the greater the chance it did happen.

You mean like someone's tonsils growing back?

As I have posted previous, at the time Oswald had his operation, he was under 8 and the norm was for partial removal only. The biggest risk to regrowth was to kids under 8 (when tonsils are more or less fully grown) and only partially removed. Nothing remotely unlikely about them growing back in his case.

Nice try.

Got anything on topic?

Donovan was nearly as a big a BSer as say someone who would claim that LHO having tonsillitis is evidence of Two Oswalds. Or that the Frankenstein image was merely an unflattering photo of the real LHO...

So, yet another inconvenient witness gets the Parker Treatment. And speaking of "Frankenstein Oswald...."

Everyone is invited to take look at the best image available, according to Associated Press/Wide World Photos, of the 1959 "Defection" photo of "Lee Harvey Oswald." Just click on this link:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Defection.html

Does that look like the man killed by Jack Ruby to you?

What do you interpret a "retransmission" copy to be? How can a photo IMPROVE as a result of being "retransmitted?"

The jawline has been materially altered (possibly other features as well) in Frankenstein and if you go back to the start of this thread, you'll note that NO ONE - including Josephs - was disputing that Frankenstein was the result of retouching.

Rather than talk about the "jawline" and "possibly other features as well," why don't you just point out that the entire background has been removed? An entire set of windows is gone. Retouched? DUH!! Ask the CIA media asset who surely slipped this photo into the public record why the picture was doctored. John suspects Hugh Aynesworth. And while you're on your excellent mission of discovery....

Why don't you see if you can discover where Wide World Photos/Associated Press is located and send them a letter? Ask them to send you the best image available of the 1959 "Lee Harvey Oswald" "defection" photo that appeared in the Nov 1 and Nov 16, 1959 editions of the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram. Why don't you ask the wire service what a "retransmission" to "provide better copy" means; that's what the print label attached by Wide World Photos/AP says. You just posted the photo on page 15 of this thread. Don't you even read what you post?

Thank you again for your help improving the Harvey and Lee website!

No doubt Greg Parker will soon declare he has been attacked by numerous viruses.

He seems to make fast recoveries, but I nevertheless wish him Good Health!

Thanks again, Greg!

You and Armstrong can shove you phony "thank-you's" where the sun don't shine. No one is buying it as genuine. No one is fooled by what you are doing.

Gee, Greg, you should do something about your obvious Anger Issues!

We still LOVE YOU! And we do appreciate your help improving the H&L Website!!!!! You really have helped us by asking tough questions about the 1959 "defection" photos.

As a personal THANK YOU, and even though it is far from ready, I am hereby offering the Greg Parker Memorial "1959 Defection Photo" Website to everyone here on the Education Forum right now!! Here is the link, still obviously a work in progress and so far, far from perfect:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Defection.html

Thanks to Greg Parker, this site will be so much better very soon. Thanks again to Greg Parker!

First YOU tell us how YOU think the Frankenstein image is the spittin' image of YOUR "Lee Harvey Oswald" since it is YOUR claim that Frankenstein was created for the EXPRESS purpose of fooling those who knew your "Lee Harvey Oswald" in FW.

Ah…. But that IS a picture of American-born Lee Oswald, though clearly not a very becoming one. Compare it to the photo from Robert's book at the top left of the H&L home page.

The nose is weird, though. Don't know the story there, though I suppose it could be caused by a fairly wide-angle lens set up too close to the face.

And if it was MADE for that purpose, why was it never USED for that purpose? In fact, why was it never published or used by anyone ever - EXCEPT by you, White and Armstrong?

It was used for PRECISELY that purpose, and placed in the Ft. Worth newspaper on Nov 1, and then again on Nov 16, both times in such a washed out form that hardly anyone would notice the difference if images of the two Oswalds were later compared. Aren't you paying attention here?

And if there was such a need to FOOL the good burghers of FW, why was the paper allowed to use a very clear, untouched version of the photo for the RETURN story in '62?

Who knows? Ask the spymasters who set up this not-so-excellent Mission to Moscow adventure in the first place. Maybe they just didnt' care anymore after everything failed so miserably.

And finally, why is there no apology in your updated story for 2 decades of misrepresentations surrounding the Frankenstein image - which is not only nothing like the historic Oswald - it is also not a good portrayal of the actual image being pasted over?

Does anyone here really think "Frankenstein Oswald" is a picture of the guy killed by Jack Ruby?

C'mon, men! Tell us how you think "Frankenstein Oswald" is just the spittin' image of our boy!!