Jim Hargrove

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

The age discrepancy between Mysterious Marge and Aminthe Voitier is still hard to reconcile.  A good 10 years. Shannan indicates that the same people who knew Lee's mother at age 50 in 1959 and 1960 did not recognize her in 1963.  They indicated she looked much older by about 15 years.  If this was true then that makes looking at Aminthe Voitier more realistic. 

That's EXACTLY what Marguerite's best friends, Myrtle and Julian Evans, found hard to reconcile.

Of course Mr. and Mrs. Evans didn't realize the enormity of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called "the Oswald Project," but they clearly didn't recognize their long-time friend "Marguerite." Myrtle Evans and her husband Julian were friends with the real Marguerite Oswald for nearly three decades. Included in Julian Evans' April 7, 1964 WC testimony was this exchange with Jenner (emphasis added):  

Mr. JENNER - Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. EVANS - Marguerite?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mr. EVANS - I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken - a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks Old
Mr. JENNER - Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS - That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.

His wife Myrtle Evans testified on the same day:

Mrs. EVANS - A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

Mrs. Evans added this:

Mrs. EVANS - As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman. 

Does that sound like the "Marguerite Oswald" we all heard about?

Mr. and Mrs. Evans both testified that the Lee Harvey Oswald they knew was loud and boisterous, with a "foghorn voice."  This is certainly not the quiet, withdrawn, passive-aggressive kid described by the Warren Commission.

Item #361 on the Warren Commission's list of source materials is entitled "Biographic Information on Mrs. Oswald and her relatives." The report on Mrs. Oswald's background, not surprisingly, was prepared by the CIA.

All right, just for the record, I’d like to emphatically deny the vicious accusation by William Manchester that I, as a child, employed Mysterious Marge® as some kind of “nurse” at the time JFK was assassinated.  Just look at what this scurrilous scrivener had to say in his wretched door-stopper called Death of a President.

Mysterious Marge® apparently took offense when William Manchester called her a “shifter of bodies and bedpans” in his recently published book, The Death of a President.  Marge, according to UPI, said she was a “practical nurse,” which she described as a “high calling.” My bet, same as DJ, is that she wasn’t licensed by anyone.  It would require too much background information. From the 1/25/67 UPI story: 

Here are pictures of the two “Marguerites.”  The one on the left shows phony Marguerite in what John A. says is a 1954 photo.  It is the earliest picture of Mysterious Marge I can think of.

The photo on the right is definitely a 1957 image of the real Marguerite.  Note how real Marge has flat, horizontal eyebrows while phony Marge has very slanted eyebrows.  In most later images, those slanted brows are partly obscured by glasses.

John K:  I found a couple of Oswald family trees online, but none of them seemed to include the Voitiers.

48 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I am still working on Aminthe Voitier.  She has a confusing record with her sister Jeanne Emily Voitier Carter.  Jeanne is listed as Aminthe Jeanne Carter.  I don't think there are 3 sisters confused here, just two. 

I do not believe Aminthe Voitier ever married.  Jeanne Voitier Carter married at age 18 to Harold A. Carter.  But, she lost Harold in some way by 1940.  The 1930 census still lists her as married, but no Harold.  In 1940 Aminthe Voitier is working as a nurse at an Isolation Hospital and Jeanne Carter is working as a clerk there.  No where in these records is a Leon mentioned as the son of Aminthe.  There are no mention of a death record, or grave record, or social security record for Jeanne Carter.  She did not have any children in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 Census with no children.     

The prior post on Mysterious Marge being a practical nurse for $10 or a baby nurse may connect her to Aminthe Voitier or Jeanne Carter who worked as a clerk in a hospital and may have claimed to be a nurse later.  Just speculation.  However, there is an age difference between the two, Aminthe and Mysterious Marge, of about 10 years.

Aminthe Voitier, since her mother Marie was a Claverie, would be a second cousin (1st cousin once removed) to Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald.  That would make Marcel and John Claverie as brothers.  This must be why Mysterious Marge and say, lets call her True Marge, Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald look so much alike except for height and weight.  In earlier photos their facial features have some resemblance IMO.  Except for age Aminthe Voitier could be Mysterious Marge.  It is a weak case just based on nursing at this point.

Aminthe Claverie Winfrey is outside the areas of the Voitiers or Carters.  She is mainly in Ky, Tenn, and La.  Found a death record for her in Lexington, Ky, but didn't copy it.  Will look again for that record.  (found it- Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey buried in Lexington, Ky about 3-11-1993.)  Her age rules her out as Mysterious Marge. 

At this point I am like Lee Oswald (or was it Harvey) in New Orleans in 1963.  I don't know anything about the Oswald family.  Why would True Marge not tell Lee anything about his family.  He must have wondered about his father and other Oswald relatives at some time prior to 1963?  If Mysterious Marge was involved she would not have known much about the Oswald family.

If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge, then there would be some sort of extensive connection in this family to intelligence agencies.  Intelligence connections are alleged for Marilyn Murret, Dutz Murret, John Pic, Robert Oswald, True Marge's second husband Ekdahl, and of course Harvey and Lee.  And, maybe Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge.  That connection is very weak.

You can make a claim (of the same weak nature) for Jeanne Voitier Carter as a possibility for Mysterious Marge.  She in later times could claim to be a nurse base on hospital experience. 

"If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge"  I just noticed this would be a real hoot or talking point for the WC crowd.  Sorry.         

John,

Whether we get anywhere here or not, this is helpful research.  Thanks again.

The Oswald who was in New Orleans in 1953 was Harvey.  There, he was being “sheep dipped” as a Castro-loving commie so that the whole assassination of JFK could be blamed on Castro.  (An opinion, I suppose, but many researchers share it.)  During the same period, there is considerable evidence that Lee Oswald was in Dallas working with Jack Ruby.

On the practical nursing issue, I know of no evidence that Mysterious Marge was ever licensed to be an LPN—licensed practical nurse, which, I believe, is considerably below an RN—registered nurse.  Much of the time she seemed to work as a practical nurse assisting private people in their homes, many of whom would probably not do much checking of her references.

However, John A. cites a 2/14/78 HSCA interview in which Dr. Rex Howard said that “Marguerite” worked in a hospital that held a number of his patients.  I tried to look this up on the Mary Ferrell database but was booted out for too much searching without payment.  I’ll try again later today. Dr. Howard apparently examined Mysterious Marge at least a couple of times, and once refused to help her in what appeared to have been an insurance scam.

Real Marge usually worked in clothing stores.  Somewhere in the back of my memory I recall a claim by someone that real Marge once said she was just going to disappear.  (This may have been around the time of the “defection.”)  For the life of me, though, I can’t remember where I saw that.
 

John,

Thanks.  My main interest here was getting your take on the “Mistaken Identity” author’s assertion that Aminthe Voitier was Mysterious Marge.  I’ve never heard John A. mention Aminthe Voitier in conversation, but he has said that he thought there was a “slight possibility” that the WC Marge was really Margaret Keating.

P.S.  Thought this paragraph from H&L (p. 533) might be relevant:

Harvey Oswald asks about the Oswald family

By the summer of 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald's paternal uncles, William S.,
Harvey F., and Thomas H. Oswald, and maternal uncles Charles and John Claverie, Jr.
were deceased. Oswald's paternal aunts, Alice Oswald Barre, Ethel Oswald Carter,
Hattie Oswald Coker, and maternal aunts Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe
Claverie Winfry were still living (Pearl Claverie Whitacker was deceased).
On Sunday, May 5 Harvey Oswald telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in the
New Orleans telephone directory and located Mrs. Hazel Oswald, the second wife of
William S. Oswald, brother of Robert Edward Lee Oswald (father of Lee Harvey
Oswald). After introducing himself over the telephone, he asked how he could contact
his uncle, Harvey Oswald. Hazel informed him that Harvey, and all of his brothers, were
deceased. She told him that she had a large framed picture of Robert Edward Lee
Oswald (father of Lee Harvey Oswald), and that he could have the picture.

20 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim and David,

Best Candidate For Nancy Oswald:  Mancy Winfrey formerly Aminthe Claverie and dauther Nanny or Nancy

Let’s assume that the Nancy Oswald and Lee Oswald spoken of in the school records of the Lily Clayton Elementary School in the 1947-1948 school year in Fort Worth, TX were actually related.  This is an assumption, but one that is not far-fetched.

Let’s assume that for a short period of time, perhaps two years, Marquerite Ekdahl/Oswald took care of the girl called Nancy Oswald, a niece of Marguerite.  This girl, if this assumption is true, would be Nanna, Nannie, or Nancy Winfrey as identified by Marilyn Murret in her WC testimony.  Her mother would be Aminthe or Mancy Claverie Winfrey who was the sister of Marguerite. 

There are further assumptions that need to be made concerning the birthday of Nancy Winfrey.  Her birthday changes form record to record variously listed as 1938, 1939, and 1940.  The 1940 Census Record gives an age of 3/12 months or a rough estimate of January, 1940. 

The Public Record Index for 1950-1993 lists Nancy M. Sweeney as being born on Dec. 30, 1939.  This date is in accord with the 1940 Census Record for Nancy Winfrey.  Nancy Moore Winfrey married Edward Louis Sweeney on June 10, 1963.  Nannie or Nancy Winfrey is Nancy M. Sweeney.  The middle name Moore comes from her father Andrew Jackson Winfrey.  Moore was his mother’s name which was Nanny Moore Fawbush.  Nancy was probably called Nanny after her grandmother.

What has to be assumed here is that Marguerite Ekdahl/Oswald perhaps for matters of convenience in entering her into school changed her name and birth date.  She was related, but perhaps she couldn’t prove guardianship so listed her as a daughter.  But, that would make the Oct. 18 birthday for Lee and Oct. 19 birthday for Nancy really weird.

So, how does this come about.  The following genealogy records can be put together for the Claverie sisters.   

Marguerite Oswald nee Claverie had 3 sisters.  Pearl Claverie Whittaker, Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey.  There were two brothers, but not significant for this discussion.  John died in Dec. 10, 1923 and Charles died in July 10, 1923.

It is Aminthe or Mancy as she is sometimes referred to from time to time that is important for this record.

Aminthe Jeanne Claverie was born after the 1910 Census probably during 1911 as the 1920 Census has her as 9 years old.  In the 1920 Census she is living with Paul and Marie Voitier.  Marie Voitier was the aunt of Aminthe.  Her parents were Marcel Claverie and Jeanne Cazebat. Her mother was the source of her middle name Jeanne.

These records indicate the Claverie family underwent hard times prior to 1920 and then after.

The 1930 Census shows that Paul Voitier had a daughter Aminthe and a niece Aminthe.  The niece is 19 years old and as we will see, in the next Census of 1940, the mother of Nanny or Nancy Winfrey.

Nannie Winfrey or true name Nancy Winfrey

Other records show the Winfrey family moving about in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky during the 1930s and 1940s.

Perhaps during this time, 1947 to 1948, Andrew and Mancy experienced hard times requiring Marguerite to take care of Nanny or Nancy. 

The records on Nancy Winfrey in later times give no indication that Nancy Winfrey is the first cousin of Lee Oswald.  I think in later life she didn't want that known.  She is a good candidate for Nancy Oswald at Lily Clayton Elementary, but as the old Senator from SC said, paraphrasing, there's to much assuming going on.

John,

Thank you for doing this research.  It looks like the best explanation so far for “Nancy Lee Oswald,” but it’s funny how all the details are a little “off,” just like everything else in Oswaldworld.

Since your research brought up the Voitiers, I thought you might be interested in a letter I got from the author of Mistaken Identity, one of the H&L spin-offs we were discussing earlier.  I never thought he was able to prove his claims in his book, and I eventually sent it to a well-known journalist who is interested in Harvey and Lee.  Anyway, here are two pages from the 5-page letter the author sent to me about his research.

13 hours ago, John Butler said:

Looks like John Pic had not really learned his lines.  He appears confused on some issues.  I may have been correct in my assumption but the witness testimony of Marilyn Murret and John Pic are too confused to say that confidently.

"Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl.  This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time.  Romance or Spying?  Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week?  Was this time enough for romance?  Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time?"

 

This inaccurate speculation of mine is where I went off the beaten trail.

Appreciate the clarification, John.  There are so many details to remember analyzing the H&L evidence that it is almost impossible not to make mistakes.  I did like your point, though, in the deleted post about spying sometimes being a family business.  I ran across an article about that some years ago, but couldn’t find it again just now.

While we’re busy clearing a few things up, I couldn’t help but joke about John A’s age when you brought it up earlier.  He’s actually a couple of years younger than I am.

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Thanks, Bart.  These old Gary Mack saves are important!

Hoover “expedites” denial that “Oswald” was an FBI informer:

7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here's something that folks might want to think about. 

This means John Pic, Lee Oswald, Harvey Oswald, and Marylin Murret were in Japan at the same time.  I don't recall any info on this.  They were very close to each other in location, but nowhere have I read that John Pic and the doubles got together for a beer or homey reunion.  How close?  18 miles.  Harvey was farther away.  Maybe a wholly owned family spy business.

John,

You've completely lost me here.  Lee and Harvey were both in Japan in 1958 for just a day or two before Harvey left for Taiwan, and then a little longer after he returned, but are you saying the chart above proves, or helps to prove, that both John Pic and Marylin Murret were there are the same time?  That's hard to believe.  

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I'll go ahead and post it here in Excel form... if people want a pdf version just, ask.  Not everyone has/uses Excel...
we all have acrobat reader...

I followed on John's lead by going to the respective school districts online and finding the records they kept...

I found the TARRANT county pupil population listed by school district....  that would be very telling and boy was it:
Other telling info comes from John Pic...

AND Robert....  These are all 1946 dates...  

[ . . . . ]

David,

Thanks much for all this updated source material on the early years of H&L.  A few questions....

Little doubt that Lee was living on 8th Ave. in Fort Worth in late 1947 while Harvey was at San Saba in Benbrook, but it looks like on your latest timeline you’ve updated Harvey’s location info.  John A’s educated guess is that Harvey and Mysterious Marge® moved from San Saba to Thomas Place in Fort Worth around the end of 1947, but as far as I know, there is no real evidence for that.  Have you found some or are you following JA’s speculation?

But also during 1948, where does 4029 Byers as a Harvey location come from?  I searched H&L (the full book) and found no reference to it.  Did I miss it in your post?

Quote

In '48-'49 NANCY LEE with a birth date 1 day after Lee, with Harvey using the 7-9-39 bdate supposedly to get into 1st grade, yet in 1947 he would artificially be 9 years old and in 3rd grade not 1st.  Doesn't this suggest it was HARVEY at San Saba enrolled in BENBROOK?

Sheesh!  I’m going to write a bad song called "The Ballad of Harvey and Nancy Lee."  This is so strange.  Harvey WAS enrolled at Benbrook in 1947, don't you agree?  But in 1948 he SHOULD be at a Fort Worth school, right?

More question to come (sorry).

The kind words are appreciated, John, but I can’t nominate myself for a list of JFK research heroes.  I do believe John A. belongs there, though.  BTW, he’s only a decade or so older than me and still has lots of energy.  He’s been updating the Tippit murder page on our website for the last two days.   It's hard to keep up with his work, even though he's such an Old-Timer.

Megathanks, DJ.  This is a wonderful resource!

The spreadsheet (.xlsx) version always seemed more flexible and useful to me.  The spreadsheet program in Libre Office (used to be Open Office) displays and manipulates the data the the timeline beautifully.  Libre Office is available without charge in versions for Mac, Windows, and Linux.  Many people think it is actually better than M$ Office.  Thanks again!

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

LOL.. Thanks for the kind words John/Jim...  I have been adding to the timeline so I will need to get you an update...  Be nice if POAGE would let me keep a copy there...(hint)

We have the fact there was ALSO A NOTE for a Harvey Oswald going to the HARRIS while Lee, I think, was the one with the punctured heel....
4029 BYERS is also very close by... It's very possible they just stayed at Thomas...  here's what John wrote:

In 1940 the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place was purchased by Edna Pendleton.
There were two apartments-one in the front (apt. "A"), and one in the rear (apt. "B").
In 1946 and 1947 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment "A," while Erwin and Velda
Schutz occupied apartment "B." From 1948 thru 1954 Mrs. Rufie Cox occupied apartment
"A," but there was no listing for anyone in apartment "B."

1948    7    19    HARVEY taken to Harris Hospital by Mr. Prestin "Allen"        Summer    Ft. Worth     2220 THOMAS PL / 4029 BYERS
1948    8    ??    FBI report claims Bell says Summer '48 for 3 months - MO and son        Summer    Benbrook    101 San Saba
 

Let's look at this time frame...  early 1948 Marge moves to 3300 Willing after finding Edwin with another woman at the 8th street apt. 
Summer 1948 the FBI has Marge and son moving to San Saba BEFORE Ewing... claiming Bell said they only lived there a few months.

But we all know they were a year off...  John Pic's photos of Lee and Blackie are of 101 San Saba... despite his trying to lie about it in testimony.

That there is no listing for the "B" side from 1948-1952 is pretty telling - no?  

4029 BYERS is a 10 min walk from 2220 Thomas... and BIRCHMAN is 1.5 miles down the road.

Harvey could have attended Arlington Elementary (now South Hi Mount) after Lee leaves in summer '49...  but that's just a guess...

No records of Marge working and the infamous NANCY LEE and HARVEY are from Sept '47 thru June '48... then she gets crossed off and Marge Oswald becomes Marge Ekdahl
despite claiming she wanted her name back after the divorce... (why would school records CHANGE to a name she was not using?)

We must also remember that EDWIN would not have lived at San Saba... he was a NYC intellectual... BELL says Marge and son leave around Thanksgiving 1947... 
It MAY be possible that HARVEY is a few years younger and not yet going to school.. and when he finally does it's in a different grade than Lee... until after NYC and 1953...

My $.02
DJ

David,

Please include me in the list of people to send your updated timeline whenever you’re ready.   It’s a valuable resource.

It certainly does seem relevant that no occupants are listed for the back of the duplex at 2220 Thomas Place for the years 1948 to 1954.  This is doubly interesting not only for the period dating back to 1948 that we were discussing, but also for the fall of 1954, when Harvey attended Stripling School right across the street from 2220 Thomas Place.

In 1954, Fran Schubert watched Harvey walk across the street from Stripling to the Thomas Place duplex.  Her YouTube interview with John A. is here.

What’s funny is that WC apologists have to deny LHO ever attended Stripling, even though there must be at least a half dozen different newspaper articles saying he did attend the school.  Equally funny is the wild disagreement in the articles on exactly when he attended the school, explained by the fact that assistant principal Frank Kudlaty surrendered the files to the FBI before they were archived, and so there is no formal record.  It was always, though, common knowledge among staff and students.

Frank Kudlaty’s interview is here.

On 4/14/2020 at 4:04 PM, John Butler said:

I started another topic Heroes of the Kennedy Assassination Research.  I have this entry in a word doc which I haven't posted yet about John Armstrong and yourself.

John Armstrong and Jim Hargrove:  John Armstrong was the author of Harvey and Lee.  Jim Hargrove has been a major supporter and over the years kept the Harvey and Lee notion alive.

If that is not appropriate give me a heads up on what needs to be changed.

John,

I wasn’t sure how to react to this because I always thought this should be about the evidence and not the researchers, but you know in what high regard I hold john Armstrong’s work.  I’m really not a researcher, at least not beyond a few very limited matters I checked into at John’s suggestion.  I’ve always thought John’s work, for which he took ten years out of his normally lucrative businesses in the oil and custom home building businesses, was utterly heroic.

John A. told me that he searched the records of the elementary school Harvey would have attended if he lived at 2220 Thomas Place between ‘48 and ‘52 and found nothing.  This, of course, proves nothing since the FBI confiscated all the originals of “Lee Harvey Oswald's” school and teen-aged employment records within hours of the assassination.

As Joe Freeman at the ARRB discovered, all the originals are gone.

On 2/19/2020 at 7:55 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

For the ninth time, now, will Mr. Bojczuk finally debate here the following issues? Or will he just say, as predicted in the title of this topic,  that someone else has successfully debunked these points and hide behind a flurry of links?  None of the issues below are debunked in any of the links Mr. Bojczuk provides above.

• For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year,  one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days.
• For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas.
• One Oswald lost a front tooth during a fight at Beauregard JHS in the fall of 1954, but the Oswald exhumed decades later obviously had all his front teeth intact.
• The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”
• One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away.
• One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union.
• One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive.
• On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Mr. Bojczuk repeatedly refuses to debate the above points, claiming only that someone else has debunked them.  If that were true, surely Mr. Bojczuk would be willing to summarize those debunkings in his own words here.  But he won’t.  He also ignores the evidence that as an adult, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was 5’9’ tall while, also as an adult, American-born Lee Oswald was 5’11” and quite a bit heavier.

The missing front tooth is a particularly simple illustration of the differences between the two Oswalds. In the fall of 1954, Ed Voebel became acquainted with LEE Oswald after he witnessed him in a fight with Johnny and Mike Neumeyer (9th grade). The fight lasted a long time and was witnessed and remembered by several students at Beauregard. After the fight Voebel and two friends got some ice for (LEE) Oswald and attempted to patch him up. 

Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
           --Warren Commission: Vol. 8, Page 3   

Voebel himself snapped the photo of Oswald and his missing tooth, which he eventually sold to LIFE magazine for $75.  

Of course, the 1981 exhumation photos clearly show that Classic Oswald® (Russian-speaking Harvey) had no missing front tooth.

Mr. Bojczuk simply ignores all the points I have raised above, and more, and tries to change the subject by asking me to point out discrepancies in a clearly corrupted photographic record.

The title of this thread is: "EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)" Of course, no one is obligated to follow my suggestions, but the inability of ANYONE to debunk right here the points I raised above speaks volumes.  All anyone can do is hide behind links, pretending someone else, somewhere else, has successfully debunked these issues.  They haven't. 

'Nuf said.

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

No info for Harvey and Mysterious Marge from 1948 to 1952 doesn't mean they went to NYC.  But, where were they?  New Orleans?  Some Lee info actually Harvey?  I trust David's judgement on this.  So, that's not up for consideration.  What then?  Harvey can't be placed with the Gardos in 1948.  They are on their way to Hungary. 

Thanks, John.  I had forgotten the details of the Emil Gardos timeline.

Now that I think about it, John A. and I were just talking just recently about where Harvey and his “mom” went after they left 101 San Saba in Benbrook.  Since they seemed to drop off the face of the earth for several years, John speculates that they may have moved into what was probably a CIA safehouse at  2220 Thomas Place, just across the street from Stripling School in Fort Worth.

Georgia Bell, who lived on San Saba for half a century, told John that a San Saba neighbor, Lucille Hubbard, “drove Mrs. Oswald to pick up some clothes from another house when she got a job as a nurse. Mrs. Hubbard confided to Georgia that Marguerite had furniture and lots of clothes stored at this house which was located ‘across from Stripling School.’"

Harvey and his “mom” again lived in 2220 Thomas Place in 1954, while Harvey attended Stripling School.  "Marguerite Oswald" was living in the same house at the time JFK was assassinated.

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

During a phone conversation yesterday, John A. told me that he can't figure out where Harvey Oswald was living from 1947 to 1952.  We might therefore consider these years, rather than earlier ones, for Harvey living in NYC.  This, of course, opens up the possibility of brothers-in-law Emil Kardos as well as Emil Gardos while Harvey was in NYC.

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

David Joseph has where Harvey was well tracked and documented during this time period in this Excel timeline of Harvey and Lee.  His first record of Harvey is a school entry for July 7, 1947 at the Benbrook school in San Saba, TX.

I don't understand Mr. Armstrong's remark about not knowing where Harvey was living between 1947 and 1952.

John,

I've always found DJ's timeline to be VERY accurate, and so let's take another look at it.  Note that there is not a single entry for Harvey's school, city, or address from March 1948 until September 1952, when he enters Trinity Lutheran School in the Bronx, NYC.  This is the period John A. is talking about, and David pretty much confirms it.

John K,

Very true observations.  It should be noted, though, that the two witnesses who remembered seeing her in Goldring's and Krieger's in New Orleans around 1960 were giving kind of a general indication of the dates, but it still must have been after the "defection."  I've looked at a number of the newspaper reports of the defection and don't recall if they were front page items or not.  I mostly remember that crazy mug shot of LHO published in Fort Worth where people might really recognize the difference between the two boys.

There may well have been people who questioned the Official Story of Marguerite and her commie son, but we just never heard about them.  Think of all the Dealey Plaza witnesses Mark Lane found who thought shots came from somewhere other than the TSBD.  If it wasn't for Mr. Lane, we probably wouldn't have known that the FBI lied about their recollections.  

22 hours ago, John Butler said:

There is a possibility of 3 young Emils in their 30s.  We have in 1940-1941 Census and marriage indexes the following:

1.  Emil Gardos and wife Grace, Grace Blair- Married abt. 1934

2.  Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy, Dorothy Adelhofer- Married 1941 (No. 2)

3.  Emil Kardos and wife Helen, Helen Kaminski- Married 1941 (No.3 ?)

Emil No. 2 is in the 1940 Census.  We didn't find a second one, No. 3,  in the 1940 Census.

Thank you for spelling this out for the slower members of this discussion.  The real question mark here seems to be the Emil Kardos who married Helen Kaminski in 1941.  If memory serves, that marriage record comes from a Doppelganger link, correct?  If that is so, I can't remember if there is evidence that this is an NYC or NY state record.  Do you recall?

Is it possible that one Emil Kardos was married twice in the same year?  Seems unlikely, but this whole situation seems weird.

During a phone conversation yesterday, John A. told me that he can't figure out where Harvey Oswald was living from 1947 to 1952.  We might therefore consider these years, rather than earlier ones, for Harvey living in NYC.  This, of course, opens up the possibility of brothers-in-law Emil Kardos as well as Emil Gardos while Harvey was in NYC.

One more important point about the commie angle suggested by the anonymous caller.  As John A. wrote on our website:

During the summer of 1943 Rubenstein (Ruby) attended the first of several communist party meetings on the third floor of a commercial building located at Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson in Muncie, Indiana.

This suggests that even back in 1943 Ruby was working as some sort of government informant infiltrating communist meetings.  For more on this, see The Bare Facts About Jack Ruby, starting in about the fourth paragraph down. 

21 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone done any research about what happened to the real Marguerite?

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

As far as I know Marguerite Claverie just disappears.  I'm not certain of the time period, but Jim should be able to provide.

I read somewhere, but can't quote where, that the real Marguerite said she was going to disappear.  I'm not certain of this.  I'm just recalling this as something I read.

John B's recollection of real Marguerite saying she was going to disappear doesn't ring a bell with me, but I can say that the real Marguerite seems to pretty much disappear from what’s left of the public record around 1959, which makes sense since that is the year Harvey “defected.”  From at least that point on, the official record is all about the Marguerite impostor and the LHO impostor.  

There are clues, though, from two friends of the real Marguerite that suggest she may have moved back to New Orleans and worked in two department stores in the very early 1960s.  Unless I’m forgetting something, after that there is not a trace of her.

From John’s write-up in the Two Marguerite Oswalds page at our website:

In the Spring of 1958 Marguerite Claverie Oswald left Paul's Shoe Store and began working for Family Publications. In the fall she began working for Cox's Dept Store, 7th & Throckmorton, where she had previously worked in the early 1950s, under the supervision of Mrs. Lowell Hopkins.  An FBI report indicates that in 1963 Mrs. Hopkins said that "after seeing Mrs. Oswald's picture in the newspaper and on television, she could not say that she recognized the picture as being Mrs. Oswald because, in her opinion, there has been a great deal of change in her physical appearance."The 1958 Fort Worth City Directory still listed her address as 3830 W. 6th. A year later, in the summer of 1959, Marguerite Claverie Oswald quit Cox's Dept Store and moved to New Orleans. Once again she obtained employment with Kriegers Dept. Store and Goldrings. Mrs. Logan Magruder, who had known Marguerite since 1943, saw and talked with her at Kriegers. When interviewed in 1964 Mrs. Magruder old the FBI that she met and visited with Marguerite, "about three years ago." Mrs. Oris Duane, who used to be Marguerite's supervisor at Jean's Hosiery shop in New Orleans, was interviewed by the FBI in 1964. She told the FBI that "3 or 4 years ago" (circa 1960-1961) Marguerite stopped by Lady Oris Hosiery where Mrs. Duane was store manager. Marguerite told Mrs. Duane that she was working at Goldrings Dept Store selling dresses on the 2nd floor. These two women, long time friends of Marguerite Claverie Oswald, place the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald in New Orleans in the early 1960s. The FBI now had information that Marguerite (Claverie) Oswald was working at Goldrings and Krieger's Dept. Stores in the early 1960's. To confirm her dates of employment the FBI only needed to secure employment records from Goldrings and Krieger's Dept Stores and interview management and co-workers. The FBI could also have obtained cancelled payroll checks from Goldrings and Kriegers as well as state income tax records from the State of Louisiana. But if the FBI had conducted an honest investigation concerning Marguerite Claverie Oswald's employment in Ft. Worth and New Orleans from 1956 thru 1963, those records would have conflicted with the Marguerite Oswald impostor's various residences and employment in New Orleans and Texas at the same time. Local FBI agents thoroughly investigated Marguerite Claverie Oswald's employment from the early 1940's thru the mid 1950's. They interviewed employers, co-workers, and beginning and ending dates of her employment. But in 1956 their investigation of Marguerite Claverie Oswald and her employment ended, because their investigation was now focused on the Marguerite Oswald impostor.

20 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Went to Amazon to read some reviews about "The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds."

Most of them are favourable and one of them said that it was easier to read than Harvey and Lee. Looks like this one could be the one that presents John's story in a format that is easier to read and understand. There was one negative comment about the author's digressions into other subjects like the New World Order etc. that according to the reviewer taints the rest of the serious JFK research community.

I also read that comment about the various conspiracy theories in Pat Shannan’s book, and that is probably going to make it impossible for me to recommend it, out of respect for John A’s opinions if nothing else.

During several phone conversations, John told me how much it bothered him that Jack White veered off on topics such as the fake moon landings, contrails, etc.  John felt Jack was just making it easier for critics to mock the H&L analysis and ignore the bulk of the evidence.

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

I still have not found any as good at matching the Tippit teletype as Emil, Grace, and Fred.  But, it is a good idea to keep looking because if true this makes 3 Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s in 1940 in NYC, Yorkville.

Wait.  Isn’t it only two Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s around 1940?  At that time, the second Emil Kardos was 66 years old, right?  We’re talking about a father and son.  

We certainly agree that, so far at least, Emil Gardos looks like the best candidate and that this is all a very strange coincidence.  Looking at the historic data linked in the e-version of Doppelganger, which for some reason is ordered by given names rather than surnames, it appears that “Emil” is not at all a common given name.

One possible explanation for all this is that the FBI decided to take advantage of this remarkable coincidence to hide any possible connection of the Lone Nut® to commies.  Recall that, according to Earl Warren, LBJ said he was afraid communists were behind the assassination and that a real investigation could lead to World War III (not in those exact words, of course).

But this analysis hardly explains the original coincidence. Are there other explanations?

John Kowalski’s work tracking down Tina Tippit Brown and discovering that she still had original notes of the anonymous phone calls may be our best bet at trying to figure this out.  Mrs. Brown’s work settling her late husband’s estate is certainly understandable, but I can hardly wait to see if those notes can be read by researchers.