Jim Hargrove

7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?

Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President".

To Andrej….

Thank you for continuing this detailed discussion.  

Many researchers believe Frazier was a malleable witness.  The 19-year-old’s story of the “murder weapon” package was directly contradicted by Jack Dougherty. Researchers have poked enormous holes into Linnie Mae’s alleged corroboration.  Garland Slack, one of the many witnesses who saw an Oswald look-alike at the Sports Drome firing range said “a man named Frazier” drove “Oswald” there.  Frazier was friends with Ruby-associate John Crawford.   His TSBD supervisor was Bill Shelley.  His story of seeing Shelley and Lovelady moving toward the Triple Underpass fit nicely with the clear attempt by the WC to make the Shelley/Lovelady/Adams encounter appear later than it actually occurred, thus giving LHO time to run down the stairs from the sixth floor.

Your descriptions of the fuzzy images in various films and pictures may be accurate, but the timings we are considering are in seconds, not minutes.  Again, if Shelley and Lovelady were indeed involved in controlling power to the TSBD elevators and some of the building circuits (someone had to--who else was better qualified?)  they had every reason to be conspicuously present somewhere else as often as possibile.

The most serious evidence you have is the latter-day statements of Victoria Adams to Barry Ernest, and John A. and I both take them seriously.  Here statement that she did not see Shelley or Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs is presented clearly in John’s write-up on my website.    The last paragraph reads as follows:

Adams died on November 15, 2007 (age 66) of cancer, so now it is up to JFK researchers to determine the truth. Was Adams' W.C. testimony accurately recorded and published in the W.C. volumes? Did she see Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor one minute after the shooting? Or did Adams, after 40 years of threats and intimidation, finally just give up and say what the government wanted her to say? The decision is yours.

I should have a few more minutes later today and to give you an example of why, in my opinion, you cannot base an entire theory of the case, or an important aspect of the case, on a statement by a witness made thirty or forty years after the fact.  I'm enjoying our discussion, even if no one else cares.

To John Butler....

Thanks for your continuing help on this question.  John A. sent me the following image earlier this afternoon and said, "This may be the answer...."

Bart and Vince,

Thanks for pointing to this excellent interview.

Harrison Livingstone wrote and said many times, including during this interview, that there is lots of evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald, and all of it is phony.  Every critic of the Warren Commission should be aware of this simple fact.  It is certainly hard to believe for those who have not studied the issue, but the deeper you go into this case, the more you know it is true.

53 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I, Bart, Barry Ernest, and many others believe that when Vickie testified for Mr. Ball, she said that she saw only one person, a black guy. If so, Mr. Ball certainly would have been taken by surprised.

SENATOR COOPER - Did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as Oswald, and Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Again, it seems to me that the fact Baker didn’t challenge these two white men or at least get ID’s from them suggests someone (who else but Truly?) must have vouched for them.

Baker would not be expected to recognize TSBD employees.  But Truly certainly should have, and yet the WC did not ask Truly to identify these two white men.  Why not?

I sent John A the photos posted by John Butler near the top of this page.  John A emailed me back several photos showing the ceiling of the sixth floor and, using the direction of the floor beams for orientation, he concluded that the item that might be an air vent was on the north wall.

Nevertheless, I think we all agree that an elevator simply must have an air vent somewhere near the top of the shaft.

In the photo Tony posted above, it is interesting to see that this portion of the sixth floor appears to be covered in plywood.  Doubly interesting is that the WC Report indicated that, at the time of the assassination, Bonnie Ray Williams was “temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.”

John wrote this on my website:

All floors in the Book Depository were constructed with solid, thick, wooden floor boards (single floor construction). The photo [immediately below] of the stairway shows the size and shape of the floor boards which were laid side by side. They appear to be 2" by 6" solid boards. The photo [at the very bottom of this post] shows the wooden floor boards and ceiling boards extending from girder to girder. It is important to understand and remember that in the Book Depository the ceiling boards on one floor are the floor boards for the next level. We are focused on the area directly above the elevator shaft, which is only about 15 feet from the snipers nest. If an air vent were installed in the ceiling of the 5th floor elevator shaft, it would allow air to flow from the open elevator shaft directly into the 6th floor (see diagram below). An air vent would also provide direct access to the 5th floor and to the top of the elevator cabin. If an air vent were not installed in this area, then lifting a few floor boards would also provide direct access to the 5th floor.

John,

Thank you for the images. I've forwarded them to John A.

Sandy,

Oops... that was a typo.  I mean to ask "... why is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?"  In other words, if the Shelly and Lovelady sighting was added later to Vickie Adams' testimony, what prompted Ball to ask the men if they saw her on the first floor.  And for that matter, what prompted Lovelady to say, out of the blue, "I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie" in answer to the question, "Who did you see on the first floor?"

To John Butler….

Thanks for continuing to research the question of the elevator vents.  I don’t know a damned thing about elevator vents, other than they’re needed, but John A. is a builder and I’ll send the picture to him and ask him what he thinks.  Do you have any idea if the object is in the right position to be above the elevator shaft?  I can't tell.

To Andrej re. the two “white men” on the first floor....

Anyone can be mistaken no doubt, but all we can do is go by what the witnesses say, unless we see a reason for them to be mistaken or untruthful.  Baker would have no way to know if the men were employees of the Book Depository, but Roy Truly surely would have known.  From John’s write-up on my website:

On May 14, 1964, 5 weeks after learning from Victoria Adams and Officer Marion Baker about the two men on the 1st floor between one and one and a half minutes after the shooting, Commission attorney David Belin interviewed Roy Truly. Questioning Truly about the two men at the back of the TSBD within one minute of the shooting should have been Belin's focus of attention. Belin, however, pointedly failed to ask Truly to describe or identity either of these men. Why? ... because Belin did not want the identity of these men on the record. Belin dared not ask Truly to identify these men. Belin never asked Truly if they were strangers, never asked Truly if he knew these men, and never asked Truly if they were TSBD employees. Throughout his testimony Roy Truly never spoke a word nor volunteered any information about these two men. If Truly said these men were strangers, then Truly and/or Officer Baker would have asked them for identification and their reason for being in the TSBD. If Truly identified these men as Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady then two very serious issues would need answers:

#1--if identified by Truly as Shelley/Lovelady (1 1/2 minutes after the shooting) then these were undoubtedly the same two men seen by Victoria Adams in the same location only one minute after the shooting. The W.C. knew that it was impossible for anyone from the 6th floor to have ran from the 6th floor "sniper's nest" to the NW stairway, and down to the 2nd floor lunchroom--without being seen or heard by Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles--and then be confronted by Baker and Truly.
#2--why were Shelley and Lovelady near the freight elevators only one minute after the shooting? 

To those who believe the sighting of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor was added later by the WC to Vickie Adams’ testimony....

The WC deposed Victoria Adams (2:15 PM), Billy Lovelady (3:50 PM), and Bill Shelley (4:10 PM) all on the same day--April 7, 1964.  If the WC later added the Adams and Lovelady sightings to Ms. Adams’ testimony, who is it that attorney Joseph Ball specifically asked both Shelley and Lovelady about seeing Vickie Adams?  For example….

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 

….

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 
Mr. BALL - You don't. 
Mr. SHELLEY – No.

If you haven't done so in the last month or two, please take a look at John A's latest updates on the Sixth Floor Escape on HarveyandLee.net ....

ESCAPE FROM THE SIXTH FLOOR

To John Butler,

Thank you for your post above.  It is particularly interesting to me because John A. has been contemplating the need for a ventilation shaft in the passenger elevator, both near the top of the shaft and the bottom.  Simply too much air is being moved to even consider having insufficient ventilation.  Just as you have, John A. wondered out loud and at some length on the phone if there could be a vent cover right over the shaft, hidden by the boxes.

In the end, though, John thought the vent would have to somehow lead more or less directly to the outside.  For one thing, he thought there would be all kinds of odors in that shaft (grease, electrical arcing, friction on dirty steel parts) so that it would be objectionable even brought into a warehouse setting and likely to re-enter the elevator shaft and eventually much of the building.

It is a remarkable coincidence, though, that, according to the WCR, Bonnie Ray Williams was “a warehouseman temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.” [p. 68]

Andrej,

It seems fair to point out, though, that we are not debating whether Shelley and Lovelady were on the first floor by the elevator and the electrical panels at all; only when, and only when by a few minutes.  Just a few hours after the assassination, Shelley wrote apparently in his own hand in his own affidavit: “I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator.”

I suspect the two unidentified white men seen but unidentified and unchallenged by Baker were Shelley (the “unknown man” by the elevator in the WC annotated floor plan shown on the previous page of this thread) and Lovelady (the “unknown man” by the electrical boxes in the same drawing).  All the timings added by both men later were to distance themselves from the electric panels and elevator power at the critical time(s).  This fell neatly into the hands of the WC lawyers, who were anxious to prove Vickie Adams climbed down the stairs later than she recalled.  Real investigators would have challenged the men’s stories by referring to the Day 1 affidavits.

The images are indeed too fuzzy for me to even begin an identification, but I do believe that both Shelley and Lovelady stayed outside as long as they could to provide whatever alibi they could muster to deny their activities by the electrical panels.  

Andrej,

Thanks for your reply.  I was just talking on the phone with John and was describing the discussion here on the board, and when I said Sandy and Bart thought the WC attorneys coached Shelley and Lovelady to lengthen the time that elapsed before they returned to the building and Adams saw them (in order to discredit Adams’ timings) he interrupted before I could even finish and said that he agreed 100 percent. 

I’m also well aware of Adams’ description of Leavelle’s visit and his excuse for the affidavit.  John read me the description over the phone of that episode from The Girl on the Stairs.  But remember that she was saying this forty years after it happened.

It’s curious that you would say you saw the problem with Shelley and Lovelady in John’s write-up when you read it two years ago, because John has only added them to that piece in the last few months.  I keep numerous dated backup copies of the entire site, and the “Escape from the Sixth Floor” article from February 2018 (just a year ago) has no mention of either Shelley or Lovelady anywhere in it.  If you’re going to critique the write-up, I’d appreciate it if you would at least read it a relatively current edition.

Thank you for posting the images, but I simply cannot begin to make an ID based solely on those fuzzy pictures.  I have no doubt, however, that both Shelley and Lovelady wanted to be seen away from the electrical panel as often as possible, and that they were probably on the exterior steps to witness the motorcade.  But quoting either man’s testimony from the WC is hardly helpful, as both men’s stories had already changed several times.  Let’s look, for example, at the Day 1 affidavit from Lovelady.

He describes hearing the shots and then says, “After it was over we went back into the building and took some police officers up to search the building.”  Lovelady says he ran across the street, ran into Gloria Calvery, and “went back to the building and went inside and called me wife….”  His office, of course, was right next to the electrical control panel.”

What happened to all that bs about walking to the train tracks with police.  Nothing about standing around for a minute.  It would have taken just seconds to run across the little street, see Calvery, and run back inside the building.  Here is a photo of Bill Shelley, Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams being taken to police headquarters after the shooting.

Here is an excerpt of Danny Arce’s WC testimony with emphasis added:

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? 
Mr. ARCE. Three 
Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? 
Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them. 
Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? 
Mr. ARCE. Yeah. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? 
Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? 
Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? 
Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out. 
Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? 
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department. 

Are we really to believe Shelley and Lovelady did all the things they said they did during their testimony in such a brief time?

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

I do not know if there was any shooting from the sixth floor, it may well be that the shots came from the Daltex building nearby. I sincerely do not know and am therefore not proposing my view of how any assassins had escaped from the sixth floor.  If I once have a theory, I will phrase it and post it for people to comment on it.

However, John and yourself have a theory and you brought it here (thank you for this), therefore, we are discussing your theory. Your theory entails several speculations of which all needed to be true for your escape theory to be true. I questioned some of the points. Since  I am involved in the reconstructions of the doorway scenes and am familiar with witness testimonies, books and photographic evidence pertaining the doorway, I immediately spotted the problem with your escape route theory in assuming that Bill Shelley was a co-conspirator who was there right after the shooting to pull the power switch allowing the first floor lift to depart from the fourth floor. Only, that he was not there. You repeatedly point to the Warren Commission testimony of Vicki Adams which says that Adams did meet Shelley and Lovelady in the vicinity of the frail lifts (where the power switches were located). However, this part of her testimony is not what she told the Warren Commission. She never saw the two men at the moment when she and Sandra got down to the first floor. I wonder if you actually have read Barry Ernest's book.

As per  Shelley's movement, he could not be in the back of the first floor seconds after the last shot to resume the power in the building by pulling the switch in the mains box. 

1. He said in his Warren Commission testimony to have stayed on the top step where he stood during Altgens6 and Wiegman for about a minute or so.

2. He is seen at his spot in the centre of the top landing in the cluster of people in Darnell film. This is about 30+ seconds after the final shot.

3. He was seen by Buell Frazier to depart the steps toward the concrete island after Gloria Calvary told them after the shooting. This is fully consistent with the previous points 1 and 2.

 

So, either you find someone else than Shelley who credibly was at the back of the first floor near the power switches just at the right moment after the shooting or your escape route theory suffers a fatal flaw.

 

There are other problems with your escape route theory. Did you elaborate on what time was necessary for the assassins to get to the first floor (after the last shot)? This is important to know as there were many people in the vestibule behind the glass door within some 2 minutes after the last shot. Should the assassins come at about 2 minutes after the last shot, they would open the lift door and bump into people there.  While you think this is all right, my view is that no assassin would crawl through two floors to get to a lift which spills them where potential witnesseses stand. How comes that no traces were left after lifting the wooden boards and returning them back to their place from the inside of the lift shaft? The assassins would one by one have to squeeze through a tiny opening on the top of the lift box. This not only takes time but it also causes noise. The noise would come from the lift on the fourth floor at which floor several people have stayed. They would likely hear the noise of someone jumping from the top of the lift onto the lift platform. What about the rifles(?). Did they carry the rifles with them when exiting the first-floor lift? Was it not an obstacle when squeezing through the lift opening?  Were they two or three people? If three, was the lift big enough to carry them all? 

Andrej,

Thank you for continuing this fascinating discussion.  A number of witnesses said they heard shots from the TSBD, including some who said they heard spent shells hit the ceiling above them from their position on the fifth floor.  But it sure is hard to know who and what to trust in this case, and so I  respect your position on this.  Let’s move on.

In the 2/17/64 statement of Vickie Adams to DPD detective James Leavelle she also allegedly said that when she reached the bottom of the stairs, she saw “Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill,” obviously a reference to Lovelady. This would seem to reinforce her alleged WC testimony, though Barry Ernest’s observation that the original stenographer’s notes for her testimony had  disappeared from the National Archives was certainly interesting.

I have not read Barry Ernest’s book yet, but John has mailed it to me (it has to come from overseas).   I do know, however, that forty years after the event Vickie Adams said she did not see Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs.  Barry Ernest told John Armstrong on the phone, and wrote in his book, that Ms. Adams seemed very uncomfortable talking about Shelley and Lovelady, even after all these years, and she told him about how she was continuously hounded for years.  John and I think she finally saw the writing on the wall and gave in to the pressure.

Several of your objections are dealt with directly in John's write-up, but if you think “Altgens6 and Wiegman” put a time stamp on Shelley’s position on the steps so that he could not be back by the 1st floor electrical panel within a minute or so after the shooting, please point me to the films and give an indication of the timing.  Also, please compare the 11/22/63 statements of both Shelley and Lovelady with their WC testimony, and note how much time before re-entering the Book Depository was added to their narratives in the WC versions.

A number of the issues you bring up in your final paragraph above were addressed directly in Escape from the Sixth Floor.   Have you read it?  Because of the minimal construction standard in the TSBD, only a single set of boards separated the sixth floor from the emergency door at the top of the elevator.  There is some evidence that boxes were rearranged, possibly to cover cuts in the floorboards, immediately after the shots rang out.  According to the Warren Report, Bonnie Ray Williams was “a warehouseman temporarily assigned to laying plywood on the sixth floor.” [WCR p. 68]  If memory serves, there are pictures of the sixth floor taken soon after the assassination showing it completely covered with plywood.

Code required that the walls around the passenger elevator shaft be constructed as “firewalls,” which, in a building such as the TSBD usually meant brick construction.  Brick can muffle a lot of sound.

Please follow John’s description of the witness sightings of the man in a brown coat and a man in a white or light-colored shirt that could well have been the assassins who escaped from the sixth floor. From John’s write-up on my website: 

Richard Randolph Carr saw a man looking out the top floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. Carr, like Carolyn Walther, said the man was wearing a light brown coat. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and a hat. A few minutes after the assassination Carr saw the same man walking toward him on Houston, constantly looking back over his shoulder. The man turned east on Commerce St, walked one block to Record St., and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon. I believe the man wearing the brown coat drove this vehicle north on Record St., turned left on Elm, and stopped in front of the grassy knoll. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the Nash Rambler stop, heard a loud whistle, and watched as LEE Oswald hurried down the grassy knoll and got into this car at 12:40 PM.

Thanks again for your part in this interesting discussion.

A correction from what I said above….

Reviewing the WC Report, I see that the writers do mention Victoria Adams’ testimony about how soon she climbed down the rear stairs, and the report DOES attempt to use Shelley and Lovelady to push her timing late enough to give “Oswald” time to descend the stairs.  And so I retract my statement about merely suppressing her testimony to avoid facing it, but I have to wonder why it was made “Top Secret.”

This hardly, however, negates all the evidence I posted above that someone had to control power to parts the TSBD, especially to the elevators, and how Shelley and Lovelady were likely candidates.  Who else knew how to do it and who else may have been in position to do so?

Are we to believe that the WC attorney pressed J. Leavelle and the DPD into service to plant the story of Adams’ sighting of Shelley and Lovelady into her DPD affidavit?

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building.

Fair enough, Andrej.  Let’s discuss this.

Do you believe there was a shooter--anyone--on the 6th floor of the TSBD?  

If so, how did that shooter escape unseen?

The front staircase led only to the basement and the second floor; it did not reach the sixth floor. 

The passenger elevator rose only to the fourth floor.

The outdoor fire escape was visible to the throngs of people outside.

The two rear freight elevators had open sides and the occupants could be seen easily during the very slow ride down.

That leaves the rear staircase, and Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, followed by Baker and Truly, effectively sealed off the possibility of an escape by that route.

So how do you think the shooter(s) got down from the sixth floor?

And one more thing....

When Baker and Truly ran to the back of the first floor of the Book Depository, who were the two unknown "white men" that Baker saw and are shown on the floor map above?  One of the men was right next to the electrical panels. Baker would not have recognized TSBD employees, but Truly certainly would have.  Did Truly vouch for the men to Baker?  Why didn't the WC ask Truly to identify the two men Baker saw?  I think the WC lawyers didn't want to know the answer!  I think the two men were Shelley and Lovelady.  If not them, who could they have been? 

And another one more thing....

If WC attorneys wanted to discredit Vickie Adams’ timeline, they certainly didn’t need an ever-expanding conspiracy of tricksters to do it.  They didn’t need to add Shelley, Lovelady, Leavelle, and the DPD into their little conspiracy.

All they needed to do was suppress Adams’ testimony, which is exactly what happened.

Shelley and Lovelady were testifying to save their own skins, not especially to help the government make it appear Vickie Adams was on the staircase later than she actually was.  They were testifying to hide the fact that they were involved in shutting off power to the elevators and parts of the building in order to facilitate the escape of the 6th floor assassins, who most likely went down the passenger elevator shaft near the front of the building through the floorboards on the 6th floor.  For that escape to be successful, the passenger elevator absolutely had to be stopped on the fourth floor, the highest point it could reach, while JFK was being murdered.

From cuts in the 6th floor floorboards, the assassin team most likely dropped into the completely enclosed fifth floor of the passenger elevator shaft, which contained the mechanical equipment, pulleys, gears, cables and guides, etc., for the elevator now stopped on the fourth floor immediately beneath it.  From the top of the elevator shaft, the assassination team could drop into the elevator itself through the emergency escape door at the top of the elevator housing.  And then the power to the elevator needed to be turned back on so the killers could descend unseen to a lower floor. 

Who had the knowledge of the electrical workings of the TSBD as well as the opportunity to control the power to the elevators in the critical moments both before and shortly after the assassination?  

Lovelady told the WC that he was by the Domino Room, which is near the electrical panels on the first floor, shortly before JFK’s motorcade entered Dealey Plaza.  An hour or two after the assassination, both Shelley and Lovelady told the Dallas Police that soon after the shooting they were both back inside the building, on the first floor near the back, which also just happens to be near the electrical panels and near where Vickie Adams said she saw them.

And then their stories changed, not once but twice, each time making it appear that it took them longer and longer to get back into the Book Depository building.  Sandy Larsen and Bart Kamp are clearly convinced this was done to make it appear Vickie Adams climbed down the back stairs later than she actually did.

But what Shelley and Lovelady were really doing was trying to distance themselves from being in a position to stop power to the elevators just before the hit and to bring the power back on soon after.  Who else was in a position to do that?  Who else had the knowledge of the building’s electrical circuits?

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John, we know that Lee really did spend time in Florida, and that to ingratiate himself with strangers, Lee would have used the Florida connection. There is no known instance of Harvey in Florida, right?

Harvey (along with Allen Felde) was probably stationed at a USMC base in Jacksonville, FL briefly during the spring of 1957 (see H&L, p. 162), but I can’t think of another instance when Harvey was in Florida. Lee, of course, spent a considerable amount of time there, especially while Harvey was in the USSR.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mr. Ball was told before he took testimony that day that Shelley and Lovelady had an encounter with Vickie Adams when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. The truth is that no such encounter ever occurred, but all three witnesses were coached and hounded into going along with the story. How did they respond?

Well, Lovelady and Shelley decided to go along with the part where they supposedly waited around several minutes and then entered the west door of the TSBD. That part is necessary to discredit Vickie Adam's timing. But as shown by their testimonies -- posted above by Jim -- they couldn't quite bring themselves to finger Vickie. Lovelady got so wound up in his deposition that he blurts out Vickie's name before he's even asked about her!

As I already pointed out, Adams, Shelley and Lovelady all testified on the same day: April 7, 1964.  So it is your contention that the WC and Dallas Police conspired to “improve” Adams’ testimony and affidavit and, within the few minutes before they testified, coached Shelley and Lovelady to go along with these not-yet-made "improvements" to Adams’ testimony?  LOL!

Shelley and Lovelady both had three different versions of their stories about re-entering the TSBD.  The first was in their original DPD affidavits, both indicating that they went back into the building relatively quickly.  On 11/22/63,  Lovelady told the DPD (after describing the three shots)  “After it was over we went back into the building....”  Four months later,  he told the FBI,  “I recall that following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building.”

On April 7, 1964, Vickie Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady all testified before the WC.  Adams, at least according to the existing transcript, said she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs a minute or so after the shots were fired. If we are to believe that the Shelley and Lovelady sighting by Adams was later inserted into her DPD affidavit and WC testimony, why did Ball question both Lovelady and Shelley about her on the same day she testified?  Also on April 7, Lovelady now testified much differently from his first-day affidavit.  He said that he went to the railroad tracks, saw police, and went back to the building via the west entrance on the back dock.  He testified as follows:

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something.…

Like Lovelady, Bill Shelley at the Warren Commission hearing that same day now remembered going all the way to the railroad tracks before re-entering the building, although he said nothing like that in his original affidavit.  And he sure was hazy about recalling Vickie Adams....

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember. 

John,

The overall evidence suggests that it was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald pretending to be a Castro-supporter in New Orleans in the summer of 1963.  At roughly the same time, many witnesses apparently saw American-born LEE Oswald in and around Ruby’s club in Dallas.  Although the evidence is often hearsay (remember who was in charge of the “investigation”) the witnesses included Dorothy Marcum, Helen Kay Smith (aka “Pixie Lynn”), Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, Kathy Kay, Robert Roy and others.  In this same period, LEE Oswald apparently made one or more trips to Cuba.  J. Edgar Hoover clearly knew this from recorded conversations just hours after the assassination of JFK.

Regarding the people surrounding HARVEY Oswald in front of the New Orleans Trade Mart during the FPCC charade, John Armstrong has often joked that it would be funny to put little thought balloons up over each one of their heads, explaining each person’s FBI informant number or Intel connection.  In one way or another, every single one of them appears to have worked for the U.S. government.

The “LHO Hunting” photo of LEE Oswald taken by his true brother Robert is better than the one I have on my website (which was scanned from the halftone in Robert’s book, LEE).  Can you tell me where you got it?  I’d appreciate it.

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Jim:

Bill Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, some 30 seconds after the last shot. He eventually went to call his wife but he first went out to the concrete island in front of the building. This is not only in the Warren Commission testimonies but it has been also witnessed by Buell Wesley Frazier (the part of Shelley and Lovelady leaving to the front of the building after hearing from Gloria Calvery). At the same time, the ceiling light is on in the vestibule just feet from the lift in the front part of the building - no power outage there. There is no time stamp for when he actually went into the building to call his wife, it is most likely that that happened after he and Lovelady came back via a side entrance, some 3 minutes after the last shot.

Bill Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. 
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? 
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. 
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

 

Andrej,

Thanks for the input.  As far as I’m concerned, Bill Shelley is a suspect in this case and I don’t necessarily believe anything he said.  I’m more inclined to believe the DPD affidavit and WC testimony from Vickie Adams which indicated she saw both Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs when she arrived there, just a minute or two after the hit.  Forty years later, Adams apparently recanted the sighting to author/researcher Barry Ernest, who remarked, both in The Girl on the Stairs and in an interview with John Armstrong that she seemed “very uneasy” when talking about the two men.  She had clearly been hounded for years.

Geneva Hines testified that “the lights all went out” in her second floor office.  As I’ve said before, the second, third and fourth floors of the TSBD were remodeled and rewired around 1961.  A separate electrical panel was apparently added for the new wiring.  We don’t know the exact way the circuits were set up, but it was entirely possible that all three elevators and the new office wiring were on separate circuits from the rest of the building.  Vickie Adams (and others if memory served) said the power was off to all the elevators for a time.  Someone had to do that.  The offices of both Shelley and Lovelady were VERY close to the electric panels.

John,

This is fascinating, and it DOES look like Shelley in front of the NOLA Trade Mart.  But of the millions of people in the U.S. at the time, how can we possibly be sure it is him?

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I just want to note that Bart and I have different beliefs regarding the whereabouts of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady ~30 seconds after the shooting, which is when the Couch/Darnell show those two characters walking toward the railroad yard. Bart believes that those two fellows ARE Shelley and Lovelady. In contrast, I believe that 1) Couch/Darnell don't show Shelley because he had gone back inside to call his wife, and 2) Lovelady is seen standing on the TSBD steps talking to Gloria Calvery.

I don't believe Shelley or Lovelady ever went to the railroad yard.

Sandy,

Shelley’s office, where undoubtedly there was a phone he could use to “call his wife,” was on the TSBD first floor just steps away from the electrical panels.