Kenneth Drew

Oh yes he has -----> Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com That link is to a DVP site, kinda useless.

DVP, I don't really expect an answer, but just draw us a diagram of the path to the seat of the front seat of the limo that those fragments took from the snipers nest and which of the shots did they come from and how do you know which bullet they were a fragment of and where did the rest of the bullet go after shedding these fragments. I'd like some real detail on this starting with "this bullet, the _________one fired by LHO from the snipers nest is flying toward the limo and then____________________________resulting in these two fragments being in the front seat of the limo with no evidence, including no holes through the back of the front seat..... Ok, take it from there DVP You may use 'common sense' on this one. .

Yes, we are. What else CAN we do with respect to CE567/569, or ANY other piece of evidence for that matter? We must always take somebody's "word" for everything. Since neither you nor I were there in the White House garage when the two front-seat bullet fragments were found by the Secret Service, then we are forced to either "take somebody's word" for the details surrounding the discovery of those fragments (and the ballistics tests that were performed on them by the FBI), or we must just throw up our hands and say (as you seem to be saying) -- I have no idea whether anybody is telling us the truth about these bullet fragments; therefore, I can't use those fragments at all when trying to solve JFK's murder. But, of course, ANY piece of evidence COULD conceivably be planted or switched. But why would I go down that "Planted" path when I also know that there is so much other C2766 rifle evidence found elsewhere---in the hospital and in the TSBD? And neither the FBI nor the Secret Service collected any of the Depository C2766 evidence. The DPD and Dallas Sheriff's officers found and collected all that TSBD evidence. So, should I pretend there was some kind of amazing "Let's Frame Oswald" like-mindedness occurring between the SS, FBI, and the Dallas local police on November 22? Why on Earth would anyone believe such craziness? There is just too much evidence--which all points to Oswald's gun--to conclude anything other than this: Rifle C2766 was the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy. I'm not like the CTers. I don't automatically think J. Edgar and his employees were trying to frame a man for murders he never committed. YMMV (and obviously does). Well DVP, see my previous question. Which bullet did the two fragments come from and when did they get there? And since you're 'taking their word' for it, you can take mine: The two fragments just magically appeared during the search in the White House garage. And fortunately they were marked "CE2766 fragments-11/22/63" so no one had to take anyone 'word' for it, they came labeled.

I still think he has a photo of Specter over his bed.... gotta learn from the best, right? David... who found these items, when and were they photographed within the limo? or are we supposed to take the SS or FBI's word for it? http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141b.htm is the "fragment of the nose of a bullet" with CE569 a fragment of the base... CE568 and 570 are supposedly comparisons of these two fragments to a shot fired from C2766... - Frasier has to explain why they don't match exactly in his testimony... But the real question is how did FBI Orin Bartlett get it? For 14-16 hours, no one but the Secret Service and some corpsman named Mills is in contact with this vital piece of evidence. One wonders how "2 SS agents" becomes the Deputy Chief of the SS and some Navy Corpsman?? This is the same SS where CE399 goes from being NOT the bullet handed over to Rowley by Johnson, to being the bullet Rowley hands to Todd to Frazier... So we already have a break in CE399's chain which results in it coming into being in the hands of the Chief of the SS... And now Q2 & Q3 come into being at the hands of the SS and yet again, some corpsman from the Navy (how did he get in on this?)... Whether Orin delivers what these men provide him is unknowable... What these men turn over to the FBI liaison Orin Bartlett is also unknowable. What is knowable is that the SS and FBI have established a history of altering, providing and destroying evidence which could cause them problems... Tell us why we would EVER believe them related to ANYTHING in this case David, when their evidence to convict is such crap? Q. When was this examination made? FRASIER. Between 2 and 4:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963. Q. That was about 10 hours, 12 hours after the assassination? A. Yes, sir; 14 to 16 hours. Q. Fourteen to sixteen hours. A. Yes, sir. Q. May I ask, do you know in whose custody the automobile was prior to your examination from the time it was shipped on the airplane? A. When I arrived there were two Secret Service men present but I do not recall their names. They were introduced to me and they were there during the entire examination but I don't recall their actual names. The car was under guard in the Secret Service garage in Washington, D.C. Other than that I do not know. Q. Was this a joint examination by you and by the Secret Se or was the examination made by the FBI? A. No, sir; by the FBI at the request of the Secret Service who had already examined the interior of the car for personal effects and other items. Q. Did they certify to you or advise you that the car had been under their custody during this 14- to 16-hour period? A. I don't recall whether they actually stated that. What they stated was that the car had immediately been flown to Washington and placed in this garage and kept under surveillance the entire time. Q. Thank you. During the above examination, two Secret Service Agents noticed two large fragments on the front seat and retrieved them (Q2 and Q3) CE 567 (Q2), the nose of a WCC/MC bullet, was found on the front seat of the limousine just to the right of the driver by Mr. Paul Paterni, Deputy Chief of the United States Secret Service, late on the 22nd of November while the car was in the Secret Service garage. He then gave it to White House Detail Chief (of the Secret Service) Floyd M. Boring, who gave it to FBI liaison Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, who passed it to FBI Special Agent Frazier at 11:50 p.m. on 22 November, according to records maintained by SA Frazier. This chain of custody is also legally binding. CE 569 (Q3), the base of a bullet (brass jacket only), was found on the floor between the right front seat of the limousine and the right front door by Chief Hospital Corpsman Thomas G. Mills of the U.S. Navy, who was assigned to the White House doctor’s office. Corpsman Mills gave it to FBI liaison Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, who passed it to FBI Special Agent Frazier at 11:50 p.m. on 22 November, according to records maintained by SA Frazier. During the above examination, two Secret Service Agents noticed two large fragments on the front seat and retrieved them (Q2 and Q3) let's see DJ, where could those fragments have come from? Using the illogical argument that a rifle fired 3 shots from the snipers nest, which one of those bullets fragmented and left two pieces laying on the front seat? Could it have been from the first one that missed everything? While it was flying over the limo(if it did) did some fragments fall off into the front seat? I'm going with NO on that one. Second shot, hit JFK in back (LOL) and went through him and Connally and never went near the front seat. So we have to go with a NO on that one. That leaves one more, according to Nutters this one went into JFK's head and didn't come out, so none of those went near the front seat. So we have a NO on that one. So where oh where did those fragments come from on the front seat on the car with no holes in the front seat that they could have come through. Well DVP, your turn.

It's part of that "common sense" stuff I'm always talking about. Something which you don't seem to have a walking acquaintance with. If you can hear Bug Man laughing, you've lost your mind. If you were on trial for murder and the jury were told to use common sense on the evidence that they didn't need 'beyond a reasonable doubt' would you be okay with that?

First DVP, there is no proof as to 'when' any fragments were fired from any rifle. Even if there were proof (which there isn't) that the fragments were fired from that rifle, there is no proof as to 'when' they were fired through that rifle. Just as those shells that were recovered from Tippits scene were replaced as evidence, I'm going with there "is not proof, at all, that any fragment in the limo was ever inside 2766. You can guess, speculate or lie all you wish, but you can't put those fragments into 2766 on 11/22. I don't have to pretend they weren't, you have to prove they were. Since no one in the civilized world has been able to do so in 50+ years, I'm going with 'you can't do it at all".

Why do you believe the shooter would have to be sighting with his let eye? because i've been at the site and it is impossible to sight a rifle onto elm street with the rifle on the right side of your body. I'm not saying a contortionist 'absolutely' couldn't do it, but it would be a very uncomfortable for a normal sized person. The bottom of the window is only about a foot off the floor, so a person definitely couldn't stand up and fire through the lower half of the window.

Glenn, you should bear in mind that much has changed in 50 years, trees have grown, etc. I noticed the trees were much different back in the 90's than they were back in the 60's the first time I was there. So you can't rely on the view from the 6th floor as being very similar. One thing you also can't get the feel for is that you can't just stand at that window and get that view. The camera appears to be about 3 feet above floor level, a position that would not have been possible in 63 because of the upper half of the window. Actually firing a rifle from the spot necessary based on window opening at the time, shooter would have to be sitting or lying on the floor and sighting with his left eye. Basically an impossible shot. You can't see any of the obstructions within the room itself.

Think again..... "I believe that 95 percent of the physical evidence in this case would be admissible. I can tell you from personal experience that excluding evidence at a trial because the chain of custody is weak is rare, certainly the exception rather than the rule. The typical situation where the chain is not particularly strong is for the trial judge to nevertheless admit the evidence, ruling that the weakness of the chain goes only to "the weight of the evidence [i.e., how much weight or credence the jury will give it], not its admissibility"." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 442 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's also this from Vince.... "The admissibility of CE 399 (along with other items of evidence) was, indeed, dealt with in London by Judge Lucius Bunton at a pre-trial evidentiary hearing, and Bunton, a sitting federal judge in Texas at the time, ruled in my favor that CE 399 (not the actual bullet, of course, which we did not have in London) was admissible at the London trial." -- Letter from Vincent Bugliosi to David Von Pein; August 22, 2009 "I believe that 95 percent of the physical evidence in this case would be admissible. And that would be where the bug man ran into trouble. If the 'actual' cartridge shells recovered at the scene were admitted, that alone would clear LHO as he had no weapon that made ejector marks on the shells and none of the shells were expanded as LHO revolver were shown to do. And especially when the bullets recovered from JDTs body were not a match for the cartridge casings that were produced as evidence. Yep, I say admit that evidence so the Jury will have a much easier time with their Not guilty verdict.

Think again..... "I believe that 95 percent of the physical evidence in this case would be admissible. I can tell you from personal experience that excluding evidence at a trial because the chain of custody is weak is rare, certainly the exception rather than the rule. The typical situation where the chain is not particularly strong is for the trial judge to nevertheless admit the evidence, ruling that the weakness of the chain goes only to "the weight of the evidence [i.e., how much weight or credence the jury will give it], not its admissibility"." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 442 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's also this from Vince.... "The admissibility of CE 399 (along with other items of evidence) was, indeed, dealt with in London by Judge Lucius Bunton at a pre-trial evidentiary hearing, and Bunton, a sitting federal judge in Texas at the time, ruled in my favor that CE 399 (not the actual bullet, of course, which we did not have in London) was admissible at the London trial." -- Letter from Vincent Bugliosi to David Von Pein; August 22, 2009 Since two police officers testified that they had put their marks on the shell casings recovered at the scene and since neither of their marks were on the shell casings being used, they could not identify the casings as being the ones recovered at the scene. You really think a jury would 'overlook' that little detail?

Wonder how the Warren Commission missed that? Do you suppose they actually knew it and just didn't want US to know it? Nah..........

Well Davey, it all depends on what you choose to believe: "When a homicide occurs, it is standard operating procedure for the police homicide division to send off the bullets and cartridges to the F.B.I. Iaboratory in Washington, D.C. for study and possible identi- fication of the gun that fired them. In this case, the Dallas homicide unit, understandably shy about advertising the coroner's discovery, sent only one bullet to the F.B.I. Iab, informing the Bureau that this was the only bullet found in Tippit's body. To everyone's surprise, the Bureau lab found that the bullet did not match Oswald's revolver. When it discovered this oddity, the Warren Commission was inspired to look for other bullets that might match up better. Although the Commission never received a copy of Tippit's autopsy report, somehow it found out that four bullets rather than merely one had been found in Tippit's body. The ordinarily incurious Commission asked the F.B.I. to inquire about the three missing bullets, and they were found after four months gathering dust in the files of the Dallas homicide division. These bullets were sent to the F.B.I. Iab. But Special Agent Courtlandt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken from Lee Oswald The cartridges allegedly found at the scene proved even more problematic. While the bullets had initially been under the control of the coroner who found them in Tippit's body, the cartridges, the metal casings which provide propulsion power to the bullets, were Dallas homicide's responsibility from the outset. On the very day of Officer Tippit's murder, Dallas homicide had made a summary of all the evidence it had in the case, a most important standard police procedure. Although a number of witnesses mentioned that they had seen cartridges strewn around after the shooting and the early recorded radio messages had described the murder weapon as an automatic because of the ejector marks on cartridges found at the scene, this summary did not include cartridges of any kind. It was not until six days after it had sent the single bullet to the F.B.I. Iab in Washington that the Dallas homicide division finally added four cartridges allegedly found at the scene to the Tippit evidence summary. The cartridges were then sent off to Washington, and the Bureau lab promptly reported back that they indeed had been fired by the same revolver that Oswald allegedly purchased through the mail under the alias of A. Hidell. The Dallas police force may have been relieved to hear this result, but to me the late appearance of the cartridges only focused more attention on the Dallas homicide unit's unconscionable manipulation of evidence. I knew that if the cartridges had actually been fired by Oswald before his arrest, they routinely would have been included in the summary of evidence and sent off to the F. B.l. Iab on the evening of the murder. But these cartridges were not sent until well *after* Dallas homicide had learned that the lab could not find positive markings from Oswald's gun on the single bullet. (This evaluation would have come from the Washington lab to the Dallas Bureau office by telex within 24 hours.) It seemed clear to me what had happened. Having failed to get a positive identification with Oswald's revolver from the bullet, Dallas homicide was not about to send off cartridges with an automatic hand gun's ejector marks on them, even if these were the actual cartridges found at the scene. Instead, someone in the homicide division or cooperating with it had fired the confiscated revolver *after* Oswald's arrest, thereby obtaining the needed cartridges bearing its imprint. Then those cartridges were sent to Washington." "However, competence was not the Dallas homicide unit's strong suit, even in fabricating evidence. The F.B.I. Iab found that *two* of the cartridge cases had been manufactured by Western and *two* by Remington. Since the lab had already concluded that *three* of the bullets found in Tippit's body were copper-coated Westerns and *one* was a lead Remington, these numbers simply did not add up. Worse yet, at the Warren Commission hearings it became embarrassingly apparent that the used cartridges that the Dallas homicide team had sent to the F. B.l. Iab were not the cartridges actually found at the scene of Tippit's murder. One witness, Domingo Benavides, found two used cartridge shells not far from the shooting and handed them to Officer J.M. Poe. Dallas Police Sergeant Gerald Hill instructed Poe to mark them i.e., to scratch his initials on them in order to maintain the chain of evidence. This is standard operating procedure for all homicide officers everywhere. Poe informed the Warren Commission that he believed he had marked them, but he could not swear to it. At the Commission hearing Poe examined four cartridges that were shown to him but was unable to identify his marks on them. Sergeant W.E. Barnes informed the Commission that he had received two cartridges from Officer Poe back at police headquarters and had added his own initials to them. However, he too was unable to positively identify the two shells. " Want to read more: http://scribblguy.50megs.com/tippit.htm Now I'm not 'real' sure, but seems as if there might just be a little bitty 'chain of custody' problem, which means your evidence never gets into the courtroom. Other than that? Next.....

This is not a sign that Oswald was particularly knowledgeable about sighting in a scope, although I will give him a break here, Robert, I just started reading on this thread, because you recommended it. But I have a problem. The very first comment should have stated that this information is all hypothetical. The simplest way I can demonstrate that is with your sentence I quoted in bold. All this information is not a sign of anything regarding LHO because there is little or no doubt that LHO ever even saw that rifle. No evidence has ever been presented that he had any knowledge at all of that rifle. He never 'sighted' it in. So from that point, this information is in the format that "IF LHO HAD FIRED THE RIFLE ON 11/22/63 FROM THE SNIPER'S NEST, THIS IS SOME OF THE DIFFICULTIES HE WOULD HAVE ENCOUNTERED". Once everyone understand's that it is all hypothetical and didn't happen, but 'could be true', then it might be easier to read.

Do I think I'm fooling anyone? It's you that apparently doesn't know what a fact is and still are unable to link to one fact. Embarrassing to who?

I notice you didn't link me to any 'fact'. You sure do want people to go to your site, is there a reason for that seeing as how you aren't able to provide one link to one fact?

I notice you didn't link me to any 'fact'.

Glenn, I was just trying to help you overcome your admitted ignorance when it comes to many areas of the JFK and Tippit cases. If you want to use the links, fine. If not, just wallow in your ignorance. I don't care. I was just trying to be helpful. And you will find a lot of "proof" of Oswald's double-guilt on my pages, as well as hundreds (if not thousands) of primary sources to back up my claims. I was just trying to help you overcome your admitted ignorance when it comes to many areas of the JFK and Tippit cases. DVP, I don't think linking anyone to your site is likely to cure any ignorance of facts of JFK assassination. I've seen little there that is related to reality.

I read several of those links, and I'm still looking for a 'fact'. Why did you leave out that JDT was shot with two different types of bullets? Must be a reason for not including that. When you have so much evidence, how can you not get the time JDT was shot correct? What are you attempting to distort? Tell you what DVP, if you know of one 'true fact' in all that crap you linked to, tell me what it is and give me a direct link. I don't want to have to search through dozens of blabbering pages of assumptions and lies to try to find one fact. I'll be waiting.

Now I'm wondering why the heck you're even posting on this forum? The people who post here are generally very knowledgeable about the evidence in the Kennedy and Tippit cases. And yet you weren't even aware of something so basic as the fact the three bullet shells (CE510) were linked to the C2766 rifle. TThat's pretty basic stuff, Glenn. And yet Mr. Nall has been scolding me for not knowing what the words EVIDENCE and PROOF mean? Good heavens! Give me strength! And yet you weren't even aware of something so basic as the fact the three bullet shells (CE510) were linked to the C2766 rifle. I don't remember Glenn's context, but it doesn't really matter because it is a 'fact' that there is nothing that links those 3 shells to being fired by 2766 on 11/22/63. and there is nothing that links any fragment with having been fired by 2766 on that date and there is nothing that links any fragment directly with one of those 3 shells. Basically, DVP, you got nothing there.

Glenn, DVP's role and agenda here is to get us to discuss irrelevant activities while ignoring facts. Everyone in the civilized world with two functioning brain cells know that LHO did not fire a shot on 11/22/63. Not one single piece of evidence meets the criteria of 'beyond a reasonable doubt' EVERY single issue that DVP mentions is only for smokescreening. None of them have merit. Just a simple example: suppose somehow someone could prove that 2766 actually did fire 3 shots that day, they still couldn't prove that they were fired from the sniper's nest, they couldn't prove who was holding the rifle, they couldn't prove that LHO ever saw that rifle. They can't prove that any shot that killed JFK or wounded JC came from that rifle. Oh sure they can keep implying it and say that common sense might tell you some of that was true, but not with any factual material or evidence to back it up. Just ask yourself why anyone works so hard to try to convince someone that he knows what he's talking about when in the years that I've known of DVP's lobbying, he has not convinced one single person that he knows what he's talking about. He certainly has not changed anyone's mind unless it was toward it being a conspiracy. Why does he do it when it obviously yields zero results for him?

The only possible way to make Oswald innocent of shooting Officer Tippit is to literally ignore all of the evidence. And why would anyone want to do that? Care to answer that one, Glenn? Fortunately in the US, you don't make people 'innocent' you are required to make them guilty and using any evidence you think applies you can't prove with any certainty that he is guilty. The main reason why you can't prove it is because he didn't do it. The most credible witness involved with the tippit deal says that LHO was at the Texas Theatre when JDT was killed. That would make reasonable doubt a certainty. Bingo, there goes your case. Well, actually you never had a case so it didn't really go anywhere.

I'm fairly "shore" that if all juries consisted of "JFK Internet CTers", all guilty defendants would be set free. You'd find SOME evidence that you could pretend was fake. Most Internet CTers can't even find it within themselves to string Oswald up for Officer Tippit's murder, let alone JFK's. And the Tippit murder can easily be solved by any first grader with a learning disability. And yet the CTers are stumped by it. Go figure. Most Internet CTers can't even find it within themselves to string Oswald up for Officer Tippit's murder, let alone JFK's. And the Tippit murder can easily be solved by any first grader with a learning disability. But fortunately they don't let first graders with learning disabilities on juries. They require people with normal brains and reasoning ability. I'll bet you haven't been on any juries lately, have you DVP? There is no more evidence to convict anyone for JDT than for JFK. Exactly none for either. No one has ever put LHO near where JDT was killed at the time of the shooting, LHO was already in the Texas Theatre.

I can put the third BULLET SHELL CASING in C2766. And THREE shots were fired (based on the preponderance of evidence and the witness accounts). So the math isn't too difficult here. But, you see Glenn, I'm using some of that "common sense and deductive reasoning" I was talking about before. And THAT is taboo in your world, isn't it? (based on the preponderance of evidence and the witness accounts). Sorry DVP but preponderance of the evidence is not the standard in criminal cases. While a juror may use any kind of reasoning he might desire, he may not do so in determining guilt, he may only use evidence that shows guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Putting a shell casing in a rifle has nothing to do with the bullet. If you can't prove that a bullet was fired in a rifle, you can't use that evidence. So far, and it's only been 54 1/2 years, no one has put any bullet that had anything to do with the fragments in JC or JFK. Not one single piece, into 2766 that day.

No. Just that there is no proof that they are related to 2766. No Proof.... You're wrong. Dead wrong. Not Dead, Not wrong.

No. Just that there is no proof that they are related to 2766. No Proof....