Andrej Stancak

9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

You are an intelligent person.  Yet your claim here makes no sense to me at all.

IMHO you have been under the influence of CIA-did-it fiction writers for a long time.

"Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end."    That was NOBODY.

Nobody had that sort of control over the witnesses, Andrej, to "force" them to lie as you suggest.

The WC witnesses who lied were the people who killed JFK.   They also controlled the evidence -- the rifle -- the bullets.  

That was all they had.  They needed only one more thing -- Lee Harvey Oswald to be dead.   They botched that on 11/22/1963.  

They finally solved it on 11/24/1963.

Lee Harvey Oswald was well-framed for the murder of JFK -- he was framed in New Orleans that summer, and in Mexico City.

It was not the CIA who framed Lee Harvey Oswald.   It was a Civilian Plot involving Dallas officials and New Orleans officials who also belonged to the Radical Right.

Rogues Dallas Police and Deputies were part of that plot -- and could control the evidence.

They could not control the testimony of the WC witnesses.  NOBODY was forced to lie to the WC.   NOBODY.

You have no evidence of such "force."   It is a fiction.  It is an old, CIA-did-it fiction.  It has failed for 50 years.   It is useless.

The WC witnesses who didn't kill JFK -- the vast majority of these 488 witnesses -- simply told the Truth as best they could remember it.

It seems to me, Andrej, that your CT has come to require Prayer-Man, and has come to require that Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Sorrels etc. were all telling the Truth.   Once you realize that Fritz & Co. were part of the JFK Kill Team, and so were the actual WC liars, then the myth of Prayer-Man can rest in peace.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I answered with this: " Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken.  "

I was not specific but it is obvious that since Baker was a patrolman, he hung at the DPD, and he gave an affidavit to the FBI that the ones who couched him (and Truly) would be some members of the DPD and the FBI. The reasons of the DPD and the FBI for couching Baker might have been different, more sinister in members of the DPD who appeared to actively frame Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy. Less sinister in the FBI agents who followed Hoover's early decision to scapegoat Oswald. I think we agree or have very close opinions on the point of framing.

"... how the investigation should end" : this would be "Oswald being the lone assassin and dead".

The story "The Thin Blue Line", flagged up by Joseph McBride, illustrates how fellow DPD officers adjusted their testimonies to convict an innocent man. They did it in the seventies, and they certainly could do it in 1963.

As for the "forces": the assassination had multiple limbs. The limbs did not need to know too much about each other. The most proximal limb which was responsible for framing  and silencing Oswald in Dallas was the rogue DPD, however, the rogue members of the DPD were connected to the deep forces ("politics") which also moved other limbs. Whether the connection  was purely ideological (racist, ultra-right views shared with KKK, JBS, General Walker) or more concrete (bags of money delivered to members of the DPD from H.L. Hunt by Jack Ruby), this I do not know. At the end of the day, it was all interconnected in "deep politics" terms. It is beyond my depth of knowledge to fish in these muddy waters and pull out some diamonds of truth. However, it would be a mistake to think that the most proximal limb (the rogue DPD) was actually the sole limb in the assassination.

Whilst Baker certainly needed to be couched to say what was appropriate for the LN version, Commissioner Ford or Aarlen Specter knew themselves what to do. In that sense, Ford indeed was not "forced" to falsify the location of the back wound. However, he was forced by the circumstances.

Late edit:

"Once you realize that Fritz & Co. were part of the JFK Kill Team, and so were the actual WC liars, then the myth of Prayer-Man can rest in peace."

Paul: even if Fritz & Co. were the "JFK Kill Team", they still needed a patsy. The patsy was Lee Harvey Oswald. Unfortunately for whoever who framed Lee Harvey Oswald, Lee went out as the motorcade was passing the Depository to see what was this commotion about, holding a Coke he bought some minutes ago on the second floor. So, Prayer Man stays as a problem even for those believing your theory about Fritz&Co. being responsible for the murder of President Kennedy. 

8 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

 

 

Thanks, Bart, this is very useful, and not that easy to find.

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

To start with - I have studied the RFK assassination from top to bottom and I was aware of the way Serrano was brow beaten to change her story about the woman in the polka dotted dress ... that doesn't mean Truly and Baker got the same done to them. And if Baker and Truly were pressured to lie about their meeting with Oswald, then why not have Lee out of breath and looking nervous. Instead they described a man who didn't appear to have just made record time getting to the second floor lunchroom from just being on the 6th.

Furthermore - supposed you tell me exactly how much longer would it have taken Oswald to descend down one more flight of stairs - 2secs - 3secs ???  I'm 59 years old and I could do it in 3secs ... probably could about get it down below 2secs back in the day that I was in my mid-20's. 

I personally think you are reaching when trying to make Oswald out to be Prayer Man. Who ever Prayer Man was - he was standing with Frazier - Lovelady - Molinda - Shelley - etc., when Wiegman started filming and not on the first or second floor.

Bill:

I do not know how much time would it take to run one or two extra flights. I am trying to figure out the scenario you have in mind in which Oswald would meet Baker and Truly in the first floor while descending from the second floor. It would depend at which section of the first floor the encounter was supposed to be. If it would be the open plane area leading to the stairs and elevators, then Eddie Piper would not only see Baker and Truly but also Oswald. This apparently did not happen. It could then be that Baker and Truly met Oswald in the first floor vestibule, and Oswald came in from the second floor via the front stairs. In that case, the encounter would happen in the first floor and Oswald could not be the assassin because his route (+Coke) would be considerable longer and Baker's route considerably shorter, and this would exonerate Oswald. Therefore, the first floor encounter would have to be suppressed (although Oswald may not be Prayer Man in such a scenario). This hypothetical scenario would serve you in refuting Oswald being Prayer Man, however, it would not serve you in keeping the second floor encounter. Which of the two prospects would you choose? "Killing" Prayer Man or burying the second floor encounter? And please bear in mind, it is all about the start of Oswald's departure from the second floor lunchroom: if he started soon, he would reach the vestibule/glass door when the motorcade was turning to Elm, he would enter the doorway, he would be Prayer Man, and would be met by Baker and Truly when he returned to the vestibule. Welcome to Prayer Man's camp.

"why not have Lee out of breath and looking nervous. Instead they described a man who didn't appear to have just made record time getting to the second floor lunchroom from just being on the 6th."

This is an interesting comment. I would say: 1) Any deviations from the truth were intentionally kept to minimum to avoid ripples in the story. 2) Not being short of breath did not prevent the Dallas Police, the FBI and the Warren Commission to still insist that Oswald had to get to the second floor lunchroom from the sixth floor. Therefore, it was not necessary to add this detail to Baker's and Truly's testimonies. 3) If Oswald would be described as short of breath and aroused, the question would be how came that no one (neither Baker nor Truly, Vicki Adams, Sandra Styles, Mrs. Garner) heard him running - only running could explain him being short of breath. 4. If Oswald would be described as short of breath, the question for Baker would be why he did not find this man suspicious and enquire about his state.

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

Do you have further evidence for this serious charge?   Who forced Truly and Baker to lie?   What force did they use?   How did this happen?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I would like to know who actually guided Baker and Truly but I do not know. Someone who knew from the very start how the investigation should end, and someone who hung around when the testimonies were taken. However, it was the same force which compelled Commissioner Ford to move the back wound to the neck, the same force which decided that 27 inch equals 38 inch, the same force which made sure that no faithful trace from Oswald's interrogation would be available, the same force which allowed Lee Harvey Oswald to be killed by Jack Ruby, the same force which cleaned and refurbished the limo right away, the same which made a surgery on President's head prior to the regular autopsy, the same force which brought the motorcade to Elm street. This was not the making of one man. 

No normal person lies gladly. People do not want to lie, and do not lie unless forced by the circumstances. It could be presented to Baker and Truly as their patriotic duty and  as a relatively minor thing: "You do not need to lie, you just say that you met him in the second floor vestibule rather than in the first floor vestibule. That's all."  

21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I agree .... Truly could have just as easily said that Lee was confronted by the Police Officer on the first floor and there would be no difference than the second floor confrontation.  But he didn't because it never happened. Baker came through the door looking for an elevator and ended up having to take the stairs. No witness ever said that Baker met Oswald on the first floor. Nor was Oswald seen sliding out the front door so to stand by Buell Frazier. The first floor nonsense is to get Oswald in position to be Prayer Man which Lee was too small to be in the first place in my view.

Bill:

Mr. Truly could not say that Lee Harvey Oswald was approached by Officer Baker on the first floor. This is the point. If he would admit this, Lee Harvey Oswald could not be the assassin because he would not have time to run down to meet Baker who has just entered the first floor. That would be a killer blow to the lone nut theory which started to shape very early on (actually, it was prepared before the act). Truly and Baker were forced to lie. Gerald Ford lied by moving the back wound from a thoracic level to the neck. If this wound would stay where it really was, the lone nut theory would be gone. Moving the first floor encounter to the second floor was a similar necessity. Only the second floor offered the benefit of uncertainty as to where people could come from. This was the reason for selecting the second floor as their meeting point. Please note that moving the encounter from the first to the second floor allowed to keep certain features as if it were the truth: the "vestibule", the words used, the Coke, and the rest of Baker-Truly trip to the upper floors (I hope I will not be accused of plagiarism since I am only repeating Sean Murphy's comments).  

I have explained and documented the witnesses roles and possibilities in several posts, including some quite dramatic video recordings of interrogations. The men who stood on the top landing and saw Oswald in the doorway were immediately taken to the police headquarters. Ladies were offered a bail-out in the sense that there will be an (unsigned?) FBI report and no one will ever call them again. Did you watch Serrano's interrogation in the matter of her sighting of the Polka dot dress lady? Exactly this type of offer Serrano received, and she then kept silence for more than 40 years.

And yes, Oswald's whereabouts on the first floor have to do with him being Prayer Man. These are the high-voltage issues, and they can bring down the lone nut version of events. 

As to your beliefs and height and weight impressions: no one cares what you believe, only that we are polite at this Forum and better ignore such empty comments of yours. 

14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

Every bit of this evidence you cited fails to reliably pinpoint Lee Harvey Oswald on the 1st floor after 12pm on 11/22/1963.

The 1st witness, Bill Shelley, told the WC he saw LHO on the first floor earlier than that.

The 2nd witness, Carolyn Arnold, in a DPD affidavit says she "thought" it was LHO, but "could not be sure."

The 3rd witness was FBI agent James Bookhout, who conspired with Captain Fritz to forge LHO's last words.

The 4th witness was DPD Captain Will Fritz, who conspired with Bookhout and m any others to forge LHO's last words.

The 5th witness, Junior Jarman, told the WC that he saw Oswald on the first floor earlier than that.

The 6th witness is really a composite of Fritz, Bookhout and Kelly, who worked to frame LHO as the "Lone Nut."

The 7th witness is Eddie Piper, who saw LHO "just at 12 o'clock."   Period.

YOU HAVE NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE, IMHO, THAT LHO WAS ON THE 1st FLOOR TSBD AFTER 12PM 11/22/1963.

The last people to see LHO *after* noon saw him on the 6th floor, as they raced the TSBD elevators down to the 1st floor.  LHO called out to them to send one of the elevators back.   That was that last time.

The next time anybody reliably reported seeing LHO was on the 2nd floor.  That was Officer Baker and Roy Truly.  They saw LHO together, and they confirm each other's testimony.  This was written in affidavits on 11/22/1963, and they had no time to invent a story, and also no motive.

CONCLUSION:  LHO was on the 6th floor of the TSBD until sometime after 12pm, when he took an elevator down to the 2nd floor lunch room, and ate his lunch there.   After eating his lunch, he bought a Coke.   At about 12:32 PM, Officer Baker yelled to LHO to come forward, and Baker pointed a gun at LHO's chest.  LHO approached Baker cool, calm and collected.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

Oswald was on the fifth/sixth floor around 11.50 at which time he was abandoned by the floor laying crew. Thus, Shelley could only see him later than 11.50, after Oswald also came down.  Shelley for some reason mixed up his time estimate. This can happen, no big deal. The point is that Oswald came down to the first floor, and not to the second floor and staying only there.

Carolyne Arnold: what a brave lady she was. This was one of the most courageous witnesses.

Bookhout, Hosty and Fritz: well, you seem to see liars everywhere. You can disqualify any information using your method, basically ruining any chance to understand what happened. Their confirmation of Oswald's statement of his presence in the domino room would certainly not help them to make Oswald a lone nut. I miss a logical reason why would they want to falsify Oswald's statements about his presence in the first floor during the shooting.

Piper: you said Oswald took the elevator to get from the sixth floor to the second floor at which place he stayed for the entire period until his encounter with Officer Baker. However, Eddie saw him on the first floor at 12noon which means that Oswald did not do what you suggest.

You missed Oswald's sighting of Jarman and Norman who were passing by on their way from Elm to the fifth floor. Oswald could furnish this information only if he actually saw them, meaning he was on the first floor.

----------------

I know that the Baker-Oswald second floor encounter is a holly cow for many assassination researchers, something which is difficult to part with. However, it is basically re-experiencing the 2013 Prayer Man thread (around pages 5-15) in which several astute researchers were perplexed by Sean Murphy's burial of this holly cow. You may find those early pages in the main Prayer Man thread ("Oswald leaving ...") therapeutic.

30 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The time that Jarman was talking with Oswald on the first floor was between 9:30am and 10am!

There is really nothing surprising at all about it, and nope no 'bold revelation' and nope not 'arguing with himself'. lol

 

Yes, you may be right and I may be wrong, it seems like a continuation of their morning encounter. Thanks.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Yes, but not during the time-frames in question.  Starting from noon time, when the boys left the 6th floor, racing the two elevators down, and LHO called down to them to send one of the elevators back up to the 6th floor -- who saw LHO on the 1st floor?

I count nobody.   Unless I'm wrong, then LHO took the elevator to the 2nd floor, and stayed there alone until stopped by Baker and Truly.  What, specifically, did I miss?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

1. Bill Shelley saw Oswald on the first floor allegedly 10-15 minutes before 12, however, it would be later than this time because at that time Oswald was still on one of the upper floors:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

2. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the first floor vestibule at 12.15 or 12.25:

Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas, File # DL 89–43, Special Agent Richard E. Harrison

3. Oswald's own report according to Bookhout and Hosty conjoint report, dated November 23.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=637

"OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. … he then went home by bus and changed his clothes. "

4. Cpt. Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=624

"I asked him what part of the building was he in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor".

5. Junior Jarman: confirmed that Oswald used to have his lunch on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. BALL - Is that the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - That is the first floor.

Then he surprisingly slipped the information that he was with Oswald on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

....

Mr. BALL. Then what did you
Mr. JARMAN - Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.
Mr. BALL - Where is the lounge?
Mr. JARMAN - On the second floor.
Mr. BALL - On the second floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?
Mr. JARMAN - Came back and went down to the window.
Mr. BALL - What window?
Mr. JARMAN - Where Oswald and I was talking.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Between those two rows of bins.
Mr. BALL - Where Oswald and you had been talking?
Mr. BALL - What did you do there?
Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Councel Ball must have been shaken by Junior's bold revelation and he wisely did not elaborate on that point but rather evaded. It went well according to the plan, with Jarman denying seeing Oswald and arguing with himself:

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

6. Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they returned from Elm via back door:

Cpt Fritz:  Oswald said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called `Junior' and the other was a little short man whose name he didn't know".

FBI agent Bookhout:  "Oswald had eaten lunch in the lunchroom . . . alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called `Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize"

SS Inspector Thomas Kelley:  "Said he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as `Junior,' a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy".

Now, these two men indeed were returning from Elm via back door. How could Owald know about these two men passing by if not sitting in the domino room?

7. Eddie Piper's testimony:

    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up  or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor?

Bill:

I think that there is quite a difference in our attitudes towards the Warren Commission Report. You seem to take the Report literally and consider any view which opposes the course of actions as described in the Report as unjustified. Since it has been prepared by the government and since witnesses testified under oath, all what is described in the Report should be the truth. Warren Report in your eyes may contain errors but those only result from lapses of memory, and are not reflecting any evil intention on the part of a witness or the council. A researcher having this view  will stick to the Warren Report "facts" and will happily copy parts of the testimonies again and again considering them to be a proof. Basically, this attitude will only result in highlighting some omissions and discrepancies in the Report but would never question the validity of the Report itself. Researchers of this sort will never come out of the box, and will not cause any crack on the official version. 

Other researchers, and I belong to those, admit that there are pieces of truthful information in the Warren Report. However, this other group of researchers opines that the Report itself is a cover-up, an instrument of the Government to conceal the truth for maybe a noble or a criminal reason. The Report only elaborates on the framework document prepared by the FBI only three days after the assassination. The FBI furnished all visual evidence to the Commission, and also interviewed a number of witnesses on behalf of the Commission. 

As the Report aided only one preconceived version of events, it had to be twisted and information either trimmed or changed to meet the goals. Examples? Moving the back wound from the back to the neck is a good example. Saying that the rifle could be packed in a sack measuring 27 inches means ignoring the fact that the rifle, even if broken, could not fit that bag. Altering Vicki Adams' testimony and accepting her authorised and correct version was criminal. Ignoring a number of witnesses reporting shooting from the Grassy Knoll is a wishful trimming of reality. And there are many more examples, highlighted early on by the pioneers (Lane, Epstein, Sauvage, Josten, Mellen, to mention just a few).

There were innocuous pieces of information in the Report and here I would not doubt their veracity at all. This may include the question to Marina about the clothing worn by Lee Harvey Oswald on the morning of assassination. Such low-voltage question would be asked, answered, and recorded. However, there were also high-voltage questions which referred to Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts and which needed to be in line with the lone-nut version. Only these points needed to be carefully checked and sanitised. Thus, having in the Report truthful answers to a large number of questions does not guarantee that the critical questions were also answered truthfully. 

Baker's second floor encounter with Lee Harvey Oswald is one of the high-voltage questions. While you assume that the Report is basically a source of truthful information (within the limits of human memory) and therefore Baker's encounter had to happen as described, other researchers assume that this is actually where the truth needed to be suppressed in the Warren Report else the preconceived lone-nut theory would collapse. It is difficult to prove that Baker's testimony was not faithful. Sean Murphy did this work in the main Prayer Man thread. It is very instructive how Baker's reports of the encounter changed, the timing of testimonies, or the Coke bit. These are the cracks in the official version which allow to say that the second floor lunchroom encounter did not happen.

Bill:

the witnesses did no fear HIM (Oswald), they feared of the Dallas Police Department and the FBI agents.

Joseph McBride pointed to the machinery of the Dallas Police and the District Attorney in his book Into the Nightmare. In the story "The Thin Blue Line" one can see how accused people and witnesses were treated to yield one desired outcome. The well known officer from JFK investigation Gus Rose is one of the key players in this story:

1 minute ago, Bill Miller said:

Absolutely no one saw Oswald in the domino room - walking around the first floor - or standing outside with Frazier (Lee's car-pool buddy) - Lovelady - or Shelley - or anyone else who knew who Lee was.

PS:  I am going to try and find the name of the fellow who said that he recalled Lee wearing dark or black pants the day of the shooting. I was reading other witness statements and then any names of people that was mentioned by other witnesses when I stumbled across it. Been busy, but I will stay after it because I really read it.

We have the notes from the interrogation. Oswald himself claimed that he was in domino room, and that two men, Junior and Norman, briefly entered the domino room. One, maybe both, of them confirmed that they had seen someone in domino room. How could Oswald know that these two men entered the domino room unless he was in that room? Jarman and Norman were scared to death to say whom they saw, and conveniently said that they did not remember. 

Carolyn Arnold was convinced about seeing Oswald in the first floor vestibule. Shelley also saw Oswald on the first floor near the telephone around the noon.

I find these testimonies truthful and they are the best what we have given the paucity of details about Oswald's whereabouts after 12noon. Warren Commission certainly did not wish anyone saying that Oswald was anywhere  besides the sixth floor prior to the shooting.

As per who was willing to testify about Oswald whereabouts, the answer is that no one. Everybody was scared to death. If you would like to understand what treatment was offered to witnesses potentially seeing things opposing the official line, please watch this recording. It was much worse in Dallas in 1963.

As per the colour of Oswald's slacks: you can start by first refuting Marina's testimony. She clearly identified the slacks under oath.

15 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Bill:

we speak about different time instants, not about the time when Baker and Truly already passed the small counter door. During the shooting, Piper was sitting near one of the south windows, and he was there also just before the shooting. Oswald would be already in the vestibule or on his way to the vestibule from the domino room while Piper was trying to watch the motorcade without much success. Oswald entered the doorway from the vestibule at some point in such a way that he could be captured in Wiegman's film; Piper was still sitting at the window and was not able to see him at all.

After the shooting, Oswald stayed in the doorway for tens of seconds pondering what the shooting meant for him (as did Frazier), entered the storage room next to the front stairs (seen by Occhus Campbell at +2 min), checked the rifle and not finding it where it was supposed to be, he decided to leave at once being certain he has been just framed. Whilst in the storage room or when leaving the vestibule after checking the storage room, he was encountered by Baker and Truly. At that time, Piper was "right there where they make coffee" still unable to spot Lee Harvey Oswald.

I hope it makes sense.

46 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Thanks, Bart, for posting this. Here is a paragraph from Larry Sneed's "No More Silence" which can be attributed to Roy Lewis:

"Due to my lack of excitement, I was one of the last ones out of the building before the motorcade arrived. That's why I wasn't outside near the street like most everybody else. Instead, when I came out, I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door." 

and:

."...  The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll. Apparently the people assumed that whoever was doing the shooting might have been over there so I followed them. But before we could get far, a policeman stopped us and told us to go back into the building ans wait...."

I read this narrative as indicating that Lewis could only be outside the building just before and after the shooting.

I guess we need to trace the origin of the T15 reference in the chart you posted. Are 22:621 and 24:259 the volumes:pages of the Warren Report, and where does this chart come from? These discrepancies are actually quite informative.

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Aside from Lewis who Kamp mentions - It was Piper who was standing where they make coffee at the end of a counter when after the shots he started seeing people enter the building. A police officer being the first person through the door and then Roy Truly.

People did see Oswald on the first floor - doing his job.

Bill:

I see it differently. Piper was sitting next to some window in the office space area of the first floor during the shooting. He could not see anyone in the vestibule because the vestibule was separated from the open space by a wall. When Piper went back to the north of the first floor, Oswald, if he was in the vestibule, could not be seen by Piper. So, Piper may have been speaking the truth about not seeing Lee Harvey Oswald, however, this has no bearing to Oswald's presence in the vestibule/doorway. 

Roy Lewis's testimony is not conclusive at all:

"On November 22, 1963 at approximately 12 :25,PM I stood by myself on the inside of the front entrance of the Texas School Book Depository Building to watch President John F . Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade . I heard three shots fired from somewhere above me, but was unable to see the person who fired them "

"The inside of the front entrance" could be both the vestibule or one of the lower steps. Roy Lewis was interviewed two years ago, and it seems clear from that interview that he was outside, maybe somewhere around the lower east part of the doorway, or just in front of that corner. He was somehow guided by the interviewer to admit that he was the Afro-American gentleman in the lower west corner of the doorway which very likely was not the truth. Anyway, Lewis did not say that he would be standing behind the glass door during the shooting,  

The relevant instant in this interview starts at: 54.18.

Thus, neither Piper nor Lewis provides any testimony excluding Oswald's presence in the vestibule before and in the doorway during the shooting.

Now, we still have Shelley's, Arnold's and Jarman+Norman's testimonies pinning Oswald to the first floor in instants of the period from the noon onward.  

14 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Roy Edward Lewis was inside the vestibule.

Bart:

I am at loss here: Lewis came out late, but was he out on steps or in front of steps, or still inside the building behind the glass door during the shooting?

Bill:

could you please be more specific as to the witness lurking in the first floor vestibule during the shooting - who was this person and can we read his/her testimony. I have just posted notes on the well-known testimonies of people who in contrast to your witness saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the first floor prior to the shooting. Thus, it is not a sort of wishful thinking of those doubting the second floor encounter, rather it is a view supported by the witness testimonies.

Paul:

I wonder what can lead such an educated person as you are to ignoring testimonies of several witnesses who indeed saw Oswald on the first floor before the shooting.

Besides Cpt. Fritz's statements, we have the testimony of Mrs. Carolyn Arnold who saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the front of the first floor at 12.15 or 12.25. Indirectly, Jarman and Norman confirmed Oswald's allegation that he saw these two gentlemen passing the first floor lunchroom. How could he know about their presence if not being in the first floor lunchroom? William Shelley saw Oswald near the phone around the noon. And Occhus Campbell saw Oswald in the small storage room next to the front stairs just two minutes after the final shot. 

The only contradicting testimony is the one by Mrs. Reid claiming she saw Oswald leaving the second floor lunchroom with a full bottle of Coke. However, she also claimed that Oswald has worn a white T-shirt which he had not. If you read her Warren Commission testimony, you see that she was couched extensively. The poor lady had to run three times to the building to get the desired timing. If anyone lied to the Warren Commission and the FBI, it was this lady rather than those several witnesses listed above. Also, you may be aware that Mrs. Reid's arrival to the second floor has not been confirmed by Mrs. Geneva Hine. 

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

Oswald doesn't have to of been involved in killing JFK to have been seen on the second floor by Baker. So no - I do not believe Baker and Truly lied about lee being on the second floor when Baker saw him.

From which place then Oswald reached the second floor lunchroom and which stairs did he use?

Bill:

I am not sure I understand " walking towards the inner door the 2nd floor lunchroom after having just bought a coke". Are you referring to the testimony of Mrs. Reid?

I assume so. Well, there is a great tension between different testimonies in the Warren Report as far as Lee Harvey Oswald's whereabouts during or shortly after the shooting are concerned. 

One can have Mrs. Reid's testimony (which was not corroborated by Mrs. Geneva Hine though), however, it is then necessary to make a decision: Are you a LN defender? A lone nut hypothesis would be roughly consistent with Oswald being spotted in the second floor lunchroom by Officer Baker through the small window in the door leading to the vestibule of that lunchroom, and then meeting Mrs. Reid as he walked towards the front stairs. (Even here the timing would hardly hold due to the slow closing of the door).

If you would rather defend a hypothesis according to which Oswald was not the shooter and had no business on the sixth floor during the time of assassination, Oswald would have to get to the second floor lunchroom from the first floor. The only possibility to have Oswald meeting Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom and later Mrs. Reid would be if he walked from the front (south) part of the first floor via the front stairs. How comes that Baker and Truly did not see him when they entered the front vestibule? Maybe he was already too high up on the stairs, just stepping on the second floor platform. Oswald would then get into the lunchroom much too soon to be seen by Baker and Truly who needed to overcome a bit longer distance, spend maybe 10-15 second with trying to call an elevator and then to rush up via the northwest stairs. Oswald would have been already deep in the lunchroom and Baker would not be able to spot him. 

Mrs. Reid's testimony and whether it was truthful or not have been discussed in detail in the main Prayer Man thread (2013) in case you would be interested. There is not much sense in replaying the same aspects of Prayer Man case again and again.

Paul:

Oswald could not be anywhere else than in the front (south) part of the 1st floor (vestibule) or in the doorway if we agree that he was not on the sixth floor shooting the president and that the second floor encounter between Officer Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald did happen. A bit of logical reasoning would tell you that in such a case Oswald could only be at the front (south) of the first floor.

If we accept that Lee Harvey Oswald was not the shooter (and was therefore not descending from the sixth floor) and that the second floor encounter happened then Oswald could reach the second floor lunchroom to meet Officer Baker only using one of two stairs leading from the first to the second floor. 

A. If Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom and went to the second floor lunchroom from that place, Baker and Truly would have to see him passing by when they were trying to call the elevator. He would enter the north-west stairwell and walked up, and approximately at the time when he was about at the top of the second flight (just about stepping on the second floor platform) Truly and Baker would have just stepped on the first of two flights of stairs leading to the second floor. Why this timing? If there would be a too long time interval between Baker+Truly and Oswald, Baker would not be able to spot him because Oswald would be already deep in the lunchroom at a place which cannot be seen from the platform of the second floor. If they would follow him with a shorter delay, they would have to see the door leading to the second floor lunchroom vestibule closing. Both doors leading to the small vestibule in front of the lunchroom had a pneumatic latch system delaying the door closure after a person entered the door. This has been highlighted early on by Leo Sauvage (The Oswald Affair, 1965), and explained in detail by Gil Jesus more recently. Barry Ernest visited the Depository few years after the fact and was able to confirm the slow closure of the doors. If Oswald entered the second floor lunchroom by ascending through the northwest stairs, Truly and Oswald would be aware of his presence, would hear his steps, and would either see the door closing or hear it. Interestingly, Truly was ahead of Baker and therefore, he would have a much better chance to spot Oswald than Baker because Oswald would still be in the small vestibule or just entering the door leading to the vestibule.

B. Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom and got to the second floor lunchroom using the stairs in the south part (front) of the first floor. Here, Oswald would make an illogical decision to get to the second floor to use the vending machine by not going straight using northwest stairs but by first walking across the first floor to the first floor vestibule at the south side of the building and then use the stairs to get to the office area of the second floor and eventually to the second floor lunchroom. While he would be walking across the first floor, he would have to meet Truly and Baker as they were getting from the main entrance to the northwest part of the first floor. They spent some seconds trying to call the elevator and then they ran up. Their meeting along their routes (Baker and Truly to the northwest of the first floor, Oswald to the south of the first floor) would be inevitable. They would not see him only if he was already up on the stairs, just approaching or entering the second floor. He would be in the second floor lunchroom much too soon relative to Baker and Truly. Thus, the scenario with Oswald being initially in the first floor lunchroom assumes that Truly and Baker had met Oswald twice - once in the first floor as they dashed to the northwest elevators/stairs and again in the second floor lunchroom. However, they have not seen Oswald twice.

We can therefore also discard the possibility that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom the whole time and only quite late he decided to get a Coke from the second floor lunchroom.

Oswald theoretically could be standing in the doorway or behind the glass door and after Baker and Truly passed without noticing him he would quickly walk into the building and use the front stairs to get to the second floor lunchroom just seconds before Truly and Baker. Although this  scenario is very unlikely (Oswald most likely already had his Coke and drank from it during the time when Wiegman's film was shot), it would be compatible with Oswald standing in the south side of the first floor (doorway). Thus, we again have Oswald in the front part of the first floor.

If we accept that the second floor encounter between Baker and Truly did not happen, Oswald theoretically could have been in the first floor lunchroom the whole time and only leave the domino room after Baker and Truly entered the northwest stairs. In that case, they would not see him at all. However, this is not what either of the two men testified.

And so we are left with the most plausible explanation: the encounter between Oswald and Baker did happen, however, it happened in the first floor vestibule, or whilst Oswald was in the small storage room next to the stairs leading from the first floor to the second floor. This encounter had to be moved from the first to the second floor to frame Oswald with the murder of President Kennedy. Further details as to how moving of their encounter from the first to the second floor happened were provided by Sean Murphy in 2013, and were also summarised well in Stan Dane's Prayer Man book. 

Ron:

if you view it this way we can look forward to more of humorous comments from your side. 

Ron:

with all due respect to your 4954 posts and being a Forum member since 2004, I view your last message as inappropriate.

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej:

There is nothing which can create any doubt in your mind, so I leave you with your coke.

Sorry, Sandy, but there is a difference between our standpoints, they are not comparable. It is not whether Prayer Man held a Coke or a camera - it ts the difference between holding nothing and a camera. My view that Prayer Man does not hold anything in his hands during Darnell's film and I therefore am not obliged to e.g., draw contours around the alleged object. Your position, however, prompts you to somehow demonstrate that there was a solid object resembling a camera in Prayer Man's hands in Darnell's still.

I am very sorry: I cannot see any such object in Prayer Man's hands, however, am keen to look at the contours of anything which you would draw.

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I see PM's hands in Darnell staying close together, out in front of him at chest level. Like he is holding something with both hands. A camera IMO.

 

And his left hand goes up as well. PM appears to be holding a camera HORIZONTALLY with both hands at chest level. He then brings it up to has face as if he wishes to take a shot. He brings his right hand up, and his left hand up a little and and to his right. This rotates the camera to its correct, vertical position.

We've been told that the view finder of that type of camera can be held up to the face like that.

 

You believe nothing is in PM's hands in Darnell, and yet his hands are still up in front of him just as before. Of course he is still holding whatever he was holding before.

 

He is still holding the camera in Darnell. It's just hard to make out.

Sandy:

there is nothing which can create any doubt in your mind, so I leave you with your camera.

8 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

First of all, regarding the lettering of the people A-G in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, it wasn't me that put those letters on it. Secondly, as for the identification on those in the 'Altgens6/weigman frame' picture, earlier on I asked for 'help' in identifying the marked people on it, Bart Kamp responded and that is what I have gone on with. That is the same Bart Kamp whose Prayer Man site you directed me to previously, and the same Bart Kamp who has Lovelady and Shelley both having left the steps by the time of the Darnell frame... 

... In the Darnell frame there is no "man on the top landing wearing a suit", and even if there was (which there isn't) it couldn't be Shelley because Shelley has left the steps by then! Also, when you say,

In none of the 3 images is B pointing to a man in a suit. In all 3 cases it is pointing to someone wearing 'long sleeve white shirt' (less clear in Altgens 6) and that person is Williams!

Alistair:

I may be looking at a completely different picture else I do not understand. The picture below the GIF in your post, this is a Darnell's still. In it, you have a red line associated with letter B - that man in my view is Shelley, standing on the top landing. The same man who is seen in Altgens, he wears a suit. There is then another man below him, one white speck - that one in my view is Williams. If you would recognise the man below Shelley, you would have an arrow pointing to it, but there is no such arrow in your picture. Therefore I assumed you have missed this other man in your map.