Sandy Larsen

That's a excellent point, Jim. You're absolutely right, that the Hidell order form was delivered to Klein's physical address. Not picked up at the post office. As you can see here, the address is partly covered up. But you can easily make out enough to see that the address matches their physical address, as can be verified on this 1961 Klein's catalog Here's the address: Klein's Sporting Goods 227 W. Washington Street Chicago 6, Illinois This is looking more like another smoking gun. I don't know about other places, but where I live (Provo/Orem, UT) it takes two days for delivery to your next-door neighbor. It always has, as far back as I can remember (~1980). There is one thing that concerns me, though. And that is the "6" after "Chicago." Does anybody know what that means? Could it mean that Klein's was such a big business that it was assigned a special number for mail collection? I have seen situations where a business is so large that the address is merely Business Name City, State EDIT: There is another address I see in the Klein's catalog on eBay. It is Klein's Sporting Goods 4545 West Madison Street Chicago 24, Illinois This time the number after Chicago is 24. I wonder if these numbers are postal zones. And if they were the forerunner of the now-ubiquitous ZIP code. EDIT: Turns out I was right. I just read the following in the Wikipedia article on ZIP Codes: The early history and context of postal codes began with postal district/zone numbers. The United States Post Office Department (USPOD) implemented postal zones for numerous large cities in 1943. For example: Mr. John Smith 3256 Epiphenomenal Avenue Minneapolis 16, Minnesota The "16" was the number of the postal zone within the specific city.

Sandy, If the FBI really had what you call Klein's Internal Invoice for C2766 on Nov. 22nd, why would they tell Curry that it was “Oswald's” handwriting on the order for a $12.78 rifle? The Internal Invoice we have now clearly shows the order was for $21.45. Do you seriously expect us to believe your #4 hypothesis, that an FBI agent who had “Klein's Internal Invoice” as we're shown today would really go by an advertisement instead of the clear document in his hand? That doesn't make sense. The microfilm I believe you are referring to contains not two but seven different entries of $21.45, as shown below. How can you possibly tell what method of payment was used for those entries? Here is what allegedly happened:. At first, all the FBI had to go on was the rifle's model and serial number, and a date range in which the rifle could have been sold. The FBI spent seven hours manually looking through thousands of Internal Invoices till they found the one that had the matching serial number printed on it. From the Internal Invoice they got the order amount, $21.45, and the method of payment, money order. From there they went on to find the order form used to order the rifle. I suppose they did this by first consulting the list you posted (below). From the list it is seen that there are seven matching deposits of $21.45. Klein's had microfilms of order forms submitted by customers. FBI agents looked through those and examined more closely the seven with the matching $21.45 amount. Strangely, they found only SIX orders for $21.45. One of these was paid for with an American Express money order, but wasn't for the correct rifle. So what happened to the seventh $21.45 order? (I have to speculate a little here in order to account for the fact that the Hidell order form had $19.95 written on it, not the $21.45 full price.) Eventually it was discovered that Hidell had written $19.95 on the order form, not the full $21.45 purchase price. This answers your question as to how the FBI knew the method of payment on the seven $21.45 deposits. Or rather, that two of them were paid for with money orders. Here's what I think really happened…. Sitting at SOG in D.C., J. Edgar Hoover knows he's got to put the whole thing on Oswald alone fast. He sends his agents out looking for rifle ads matching the Carcano found on the 6th floor. He quickly gets handed an ad like the one below. Hoover himself (who else would dare to do this?) looks at the ad and decides the 6.5 Italian Carbine for $12.78 comes with a scope (as you might certainly think by looking at the ad). Hoover puts the word out to Curry that our man “Oswald” had his handwriting all over the order for that $12.78 rifle, knowing that he would prepare all the necessary “documentation” in the days to come. But oops, J. Edgar made a mistake!

Yeah, it really is hard to buy. I don't know of any business that operates that fast.. even if it means getting money into their bank account faster. But when I recall that the flight from Dallas to Chicago is only... what?... four hours, then the feat seems possible if only everything happened to have been in perfect alignment. Including that a Kleins employee must have gone to the Post Office to pick up their mail and not waited for delivery. Do we know what time of day the money order was supposedly deposited?

Sandy, If the FBI really had what you call Klein's Internal Invoice for C2766 on Nov. 22nd, why would they tell Curry that it was “Oswald's” handwriting on the order for a $12.78 rifle? The Internal Invoice we have now clearly shows the order was for $21.45. Do you seriously expect us to believe your #4 hypothesis, that an FBI agent who had “Klein's Internal Invoice” as we're shown today would really go by an advertisement instead of the clear document in his hand? That doesn't make sense. Jim, thanks for taking the time to scrutinize my Innocent Explanations list and hypotheses. Let me answer your question by pointing something out. Once the Internal Invoice was found, nothing more was needed to show that Oswald ordered the rifle. Because the P.O. box printed on the invoice would lead directly to Oswald. Therefore it was definitely Oswald's rifle... case closed. (In the pretend WC world, that is.) So why did the FBI bother to look for the money order as well? Clearly one reason was so that the ENTIRE chain of events leading up to the assassination could be explained. Oswald, the America-hating communist secured a P.O. box, used the Hidell alias to purchase a money order, and sent that with an order form to Klein's in order to purchase the assassination weapon. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ultimately enough superfluous evidence was gathered to fill 26 volumes plus. The same reason can be cited as to why it was decided that the actual ad Oswald saw, and that he cut the order form out for, should be identified. So some FBI agent was assigned the task of finding the ad. He found what he thought was the correct ad and gave it to someone at the Bureau. This person looked at the ad and noted the prominent $12.78 price for the rifle. This figure was mistakenly passed on to Chief Curry. Multiple people were working on the rifle investigation, and the left hand likely didn't always known what the right hand was doing. Screw-ups happened. The microfilm I believe you are referring to contains not two but seven different entries of $21.45, as shown below. How can you possibly tell what method of payment was used for those entries? Jim, I am in the middle of trying to answer this question. Problem is, I've been up far too long an can no longer think. I'll leave here what I've already written and come back tomorrow to finish it up. Here is what allegedly happened:. At first, all the FBI had to go on was the rifle's model and serial number, and a date range in which the rifle could have been sold. The FBI spent seven hours manually looking through thousands of Internal Invoices till they found the one that had the matching serial number printed on it. From the Internal Invoice they got the order amount, $21.45, and the method of payment, money order. From there they decided to find the order form used to order the rifle. I suppose they did this by first consulting the list you post below. From this it is seen that there are seven matching deposits of $21.45. Klein's also had kept microfilms of order forms submitted by customers. FBI agents look through those and examined more closely the seven with the matching $21.45 amount. Strangely, they found only SIX orders for $21.45. One of these was paid for with an American Express money order, but wasn't for the correct rifle. So what happened to the seventh $21.45 order? Eventually it was discovered that Hidell had written $19.95 on the order form, not the full $21.45 purchase price. And this is why they didn't realize... Here's what I think really happened…. Sitting at SOG in D.C., J. Edgar Hoover knows he's got to put the whole thing on Oswald alone fast. He sends his agents out looking for rifle ads matching the Carcano found on the 6th floor. He quickly gets handed an ad like the one below. Hoover himself (who else would dare to do this?) looks at the ad and decides the 6.5 Italian Carbine for $12.78 comes with a scope (as you might certainly think by looking at the ad). Hoover puts the word out to Curry that our man “Oswald” had his handwriting all over the order for that $12.78 rifle, knowing that he would prepare all the necessary “documentation” in the days to come. But oops, J. Edgar made a mistake!

Sure, but it is also consistent with Dallas postal inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes grabbing a blank PMO form from some book hanging around the Dallas Post Office right after the assassination, typing in some bogus stuff on Post Office equipment, and sending it off for… uh… special processing by a good buddy. Also, if I were going to send someone a three month supply of something, and I could do it with taxpayer dollars, I'd send a few extra… just in case. If that logic was followed in the distribution of the new money order forms, the Dallas shortfall might be approaching 33 percent, pretty sizable! Sometimes, as you imply above, you've got to look at the big picture… and not just make step-by-step excuses… any one or two sounding entirely reasonable, but adding up to an enormous stinking pile of…. I agree with you entirely. And FWIW I believe that the whole rifle purchase was faked and then covered up. But I'm hoping to find more anomalies that cannot be explained away. So far I think the one that is hardest to brush off is the PMO with no bank stamp. One of Jim DiEugenio's favorites, I think, is that the PMO was deposited in Chicago the day after it was mailed from Dallas. That's promising, but I don't know that it's a home run. Because the goal for air mail back then was 24 hour delivery or faster. Ive seen mention of, I think, a PMO being being found in Kansas City. If that is "true" then that should be a smoking gun right there.

Devil's advocate explanation would be that the postal service didn't issue enough of the new PMOs to the Dallas GPO, and had to issue more prior to March 12. That would explain the huge jump in the PMO serial number. So this, in and of itself, isn't a smoking gun. But it is one more of the many irregularities that have been identified.

Innocent Explanations for Mail Order Rifle Anomalies Version 6 Date: 3/14/16 Substantive changes in red. UNEXPLAINED ANOMALIES IN ALL CAPS FBI Locates the Hidell Purchase Order at Klein's The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession by 2:15 Dallas time on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after discovering that Crescent had sold the C2766 rifle to Klein's. The FBI searches Klein's records and the Internal Invoice matching the C2766 rifle is found. (This is "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7").SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): It takes seven hours to locate the Hidell order because only the rifle's serial number and an approximate date of sale were known. Thousands of internal invoices have to be pulled and inspected. The FBI then finds on microfilm two purchase orders that matches the price and payment method as indicated on the Internal Invoice. One was paid for with an American Express MO, the other with a postal MO. The latter is suspected of being the offending purchase order, or what Chief Curry will later call the "Order Letter." (This is CE773). The Order Letter consists of an order form clipped out of the Feb. 1963 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed. The FBI quickly determines that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. Internal Invoice Information: A. Hidell customer name; 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid via money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE". Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price. HOW COULD THE FBI AUTHENTICATE OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.) Purchase Order Information is Released to the Press SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/23/16): Somebody in the FBI was given a copy of the Internal Invoice (and perhaps also the Order Letter) and was assigned the task of searching for Klein's ads matching the C2766 rifle. He finds one. The ad has a large "$12.78" price printed on it. The agent notes the 3/20/63 processing/shipping date on the Internal Invoice, and determines it to be a suitable "purchase date." He clumsily doesn't realize that the $12.78 price didn't include the scope. (Or perhaps he has heard that the Texas Sports Shop had added the scope later.) This information is passed on to Chief Curry of the DPD. SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/24/16): The Texas Sports Shop episode (with Dial Ryder) is an unrelated event. The FBI nevertheless investigates it. It may reveal that the original scope was replaced with a second one. EVEN I, AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, HAVE A HARD TIME BUYING IT. MAYBE THE PART ABOUT A REPLACEMENT SCOPE COULD BE BELIEVABLE. BUT TO ME THE WHOLE DIAL RYDER THING WREAKS OF CONTRIVANCE THAT IS BEYOND WHAT WC APOLOGISTS ATTRIBUTE TO DIAL RYDER. I THEREFORE CALL UPON DVP TO ANSWER THIS. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963; and that the writing had been authenticated as Oswald's. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.) WHY DID IT TAKE NEARLY A WEEK FOR THE FBI TO CORRECT THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE BEING REPORTED BY THE PRESS? The price being $19.95, not $12.78. FBI Locates the Money Order According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information is received from the VP of Klein's bank, Robert Wilmouth. -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order. -- On Mar. 16 the bank sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18, according to Wilmouth. SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): Klein's deposit slip is accidentally hand-dated Feb. 15, 1963 instead of the correct date of deposit, Mar. 15, 1963. Only the carbon copy of the deposit slip, without any bank deposit stamps, was presented to the WC as evidence. William Waldman, the VP of Klein's, testified that he couldn't tell from that what the date of deposit was. WHY DIDN'T THE WC VERIFY THE CORRECT DATE OF THE DEPOSIT BY PRESENTING INTO EVIDENCE THE BANK RECEIPT (SUPPOSEDLY) STAMPED ON THE BACK SIDE OF KLEIN'S DEPOSIT SLIP? OR BY PRODUCING A KLEIN'S BANK STATEMENT SHOWING THE DEPOSIT? DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody in the FBI transmits the wrong total price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45). This leads to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the PMO stub.SDL HYPOTHESIS 3/14/16): Similarly, the wrong PMO receipt date is transmitted (March 20, the processing/shipping date, instead of March 13). Which also resulted in trouble finding the PMO stub. Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago calls Postal Inspector Harry Holmes of Dallas and informs him that the correct PMO amount is $21.45, and the correct PMO receipt date is March 13. Holmes passes this information on to those who are searching for the PMO. The PMO stub is found at the issuing post office within ten minutes. It bears the 2,202,130,462 serial number and is dated Mar. 12, 1963. It was purchased by an Alek James Hidell and is payable to Klein's in the amount of $21.45. According to Harry Holmes, the postal money order was found in Washington at about 8:00 PM EST (7:00 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23. The following contradicts Harry Holmes: According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST (7:30 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462. The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23. WELL WHICH IS IT? WAS THE PMO RECOVERED AT 8:00 PM EST (SEE PARAGRAPH #11) OR 9:35 PM EST? [Need to explore the search in Kansas City. Was a PMO found there too?] Corrections to Address Jim DiEugenio: Post 161 on this page. Addressed! Information to Review David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page. Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page. Important Topics to Address Later Jim DiEugenio: The 1962 rifle shipment that was replace with a 1963 one. (See post 161 on this page, item 2. Also previous related posts.) Search Keywords alternate explanation for incorrect rifle information being reported

I am editing my "Innocent Explanations for Mail Order Rifle Anomalies" (Version 5) based upon some Harry Holmes WC testimony, posted by David Josephs on another thread. (Post 126 on this page.) Mr. BELIN. So what happened? Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20. So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one. I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963. Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not. Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle? Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2--202--130--462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45. Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order? Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Note: Speer did not post a "photo" of the occipital interior surface. Rather, it appears to be an artist's rendering. It's called an anatomy drawing, Greg. They are created so that anatomy students know what the body normally looks like, as opposed to a photo of an individual specimen, which may have some unusual features. It's easy to see why drawings are used instead of photos in anatomy classes. In the photo above of an occipital bone, it's hard to make out the ridges and grooves that are so prominent on the drawing. Because of that, the Harper fragment doesn't look as near as different from the photo of an occipital bone as it does from the anatomy drawing of one.

While I disagree with Pat Speer regarding the location of the skull exit wound, I would like to know the following: 1) How was it that the Harper fragment ended up 100 ft. forward of Kennedy at Z frame 313? 2) If the Harper fragment is occipital bone, how is it that it doesn't have on its interior surface the ridges and grooves characteristic of occipital bone, as Pat pointed out on a photo he posted earlier? What do Drs. Mantik and Chesser have to say about that?

That right there is an excellent a smoking gun... pointing not only to the framing of Oswald, but also to the cover-up. Testified to by the victim of the crime himself. Easy to understand. Can't get much better than that.

I'd like to thank Mr. Von Pein for his help in discovering so many neat things in this thread… I hope he won't be overly modest, but he has discovered another Magic Bullet! The bullet Mr. Von Pein so proudly waves about believing that it was used by “Oswald” to shoot at Edwin Walker, is clearly a copper jacketed bullet. But as you can see in the original report filed by Dallas police, it was a steel-jacketed bullet dug out of Mr. Walker's house. Somehow, perhaps while at the National Archives, it transformed itself into a copper jacketed bullet! Magic rifles, magic money orders, magic deposit slips… and now yet another magic bullet! Do you suppose there is something fishy about all this so-called rifle evidence? Nah... it's just magic! Doh! LOL

Jim you have an interesting take on the Mauser found at the TSBD. I see from what you write here and what you just wrote in your Armstrong Mail Order Rifle thread that you believe that the Mouser found at the TSBD may have shortly thereafter been found to have apparent connections to Cuba. (I hope I characterize what you've said correctly.) The purpose of these connections being to implicate Castro in the assassination. I have two questions: 1. In your hypothesis, how do you account for the rifle in the backyard photos being a Carcano, not a Mouser? 2. Did the Mouser found in the TSBD match the description of the Mouser used at the rifle range, as described by Price. (I don't personally know if the Mauser found at the TSBD was ever described in a statement or news report.)

It does not have to be different people at odds with each other. The same people who planned the assassination to be seen as a "Castro plot" quickly changed their minds when Oswald got himself arrested. They went to a lone nut scenario, then quickly got rid of the lone nut. Ron, Are you saying that Oswald may have intentionally gotten himself arrested? I have other questions regarding your comment, but want to understand what you meant by "Oswald got himself arrested" first.

Here's a scenario that I believe works and seems plausible: Before the assassination, a 6.5 caliber Carcano is chosen by plotters to be the patsy's weapon. Backyard photos showing Oswald with the Carcano are faked. After the assassination and Oswald's arrest, it is quickly decided that it would be prudent to place the blame squarely on one person, Oswald, so as to avoid talk of Castro or KGB involvement. Officials at the FBI and DPD are advised of this decision. The DPD locates two guns and shells from each on the 6th floor of the TSBD. One gun is a 6.5 Carcano, the other a 7.65 Mouser. The DPD somehow decides that the 7.65 Mouser was Oswald's weapon. So they hide the 6.5 Carcano and its empty shells. The DPD re-plants the Mouser and its three shells. The three shells are officially found first, and later the Mouser is officially found. A BIG MISTAKE is soon discovered by the DPD... one of its dopey officers had planted the wrong shells! The ones they planted -- which were photographed by the press -- were the 6.5 caliber ones for the Carcano. Oops! A second BIG MISTAKE is discovered by the DPD when they see the backyard photos... they had chosen the wrong gun for Oswald! The backyard photos show a Carcano, not a Mouser. The obvious fix for both these problems is to backtrack on the Mouser story. So the DPD reports that the officers mistook the Carcano as a Mouser... an innocent mistake. And that is why a 7.65 Mauser had to be changed to a 6.5 Carcano.

We know that Oswald was allegedly shown a backyard photo during interrogation. But do we know for sure that he was? Or was a BYP shown to the press on the 22nd or 23rd? The answer to this is key. Because fabricating a photo isn't something that could have been done quickly, without any forethought. So if a BYP existed on the 22nd or 23rd, it would likely have been made in advance of the assassination. In which case it would mean that a Carcano was the rifle that plotters were originally going to use to frame Oswald. And that would make one wonder why a Mauser was initially found instead. Yes, it does not make a lot of sense, unless the plotters wanted everyone to think it was a conspiracy. Remember, the conspiracy was separate from the cover up, and likely was not being run by the same people. Exactly! Good point. I've said this before, that the the cover-up conspiracy was at odds with the assassination conspiracy in one respect. And that is that the assassination plotters wanted to implicate Castro and KGB as being behind the assassination, whereas the cover-up folks wanted to stifle that angle at any cost.

We know that Oswald was allegedly shown a backyard photo during interrogation. But do we know for sure that he was? Or was a BYP shown to the press on the 22nd or 23rd? The answer to this is key. Because fabricating a photo isn't something that could have been done quickly, without any forethought. So if a BYP existed on the 22nd or 23rd, it would likely have been made in advance of the assassination. In which case it would mean that a Carcano was the rifle that plotters were originally going to use to frame Oswald. And that would make one wonder why a Mauser was initially found instead.

The relative timing of these four events should be able to tell us something about the Mouser-to-Carcano transformation: 1) The shells that were found: 6.5 (When was this first reported to the press?) 2) Initial witnesses to the gun: 7.65 Mauser (11/22 news reports.) 3) Later witnesses to the gun: 6.5 Carcano (11/23 news reports.) 4) Backyard photos: Carcano (When was this first shown to the press?) Of course, I've added only the back yard photo to what has already been discussed. I'm wondering if its timing will help in understanding the Mouser-Carcano transition better. Can a Carcano (and NOT a Mouser with a protruding box magazine) definitely be identified in the early-released BY photos? What about the caliber?

What is that reddish-brown looking stuff seemingly painted on the paper bag"

I think there's a good chance that the "Extra Copy" of the deposit ticket was never sent to the bank by Klein's. It's a carbon copy of the original ticket that could very well have just stayed with Klein's all the time for their records. So if it never was sent to First National, of course it would never have been stamped by the bank. It certainly does look like a carbon copy. Would a carbon copy have gone to the bank with the original, and been stamped? I think the answer to both questions would be no. It makes a whole lot of sense, then, that Waldman would say that he had no way of knowing the date of deposit. Really? Waldman (or a WC attorney or staff member) couldn't call the First National Bank of Chicago and ask when Kleins had last made a deposit of $13,827.98? For that matter, why couldn't Waldman have merely looked at Kleins' FNBC bank statements for those earlier months in 1963 and checked to find when the $13,827.98 deposited. I'll bet there was only one deposit in that amount for the whole year. Waldman was the vice president of a huge mail order outfit in Chicago. He doesn't know this simple stuff? And the well-paid WC attorneys? They let that kind of weasel language slide under the table? My guess--just a guess--is that Waldman said something else entirely. Jim, When Waldman said he had no way of knowing the date of deposit, that was when he was testifying before the Warren Commission, right? I will reply to your post assuming that that is the case. Waldman was presented evidence in the form of a carbon copy of a deposit receipt. It had nothing from the bank stamped on it. So he testified that, from the evidence presented, there is no way for him to know the deposit date. And that is true. Waldman could indeed have given the true deposit date had he brought in his own evidence (which he wouldn't have done unless asked to do so by the WC), or had he investigated it on his own and made a mental note of the deposit date prior to giving his testimony. But from what little I know, he was merely asked what the deposit date was based on evidence presented... the carbon copy of the deposit slip. (If my assumption or line of reasoning is wrong, please let me know.) It is the WC's fault that the correct evidence wasn't presented. Or the FBI's for not gathering the correct evidence. If you look at my List in post 275 (on page 19) you will see that I made a note of this problem.

You're kidding, right Sandy? I don't know why you ask that, David. No I'm not kidding. It's very easy to understand that an unprocessed PMO could not have bought a gun. Compare that statement to the following: which makes my eyes glaze over. I understand the statement "there is no evidence Klein's ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place." And that would be compelling if I understood the situation well enough to know that there truly was no C2766 rifle to ship. But that looks a lot more complicated than this one statement: "There are no bank stamps on the PMO, and this proves it wasn't processed." All I need to be convinced of beyond that is that bank stamps really were required. And the documented regulations for that are short and easy to read as well. Then you're done. It literally takes less than five minutes to understand. (If it seems more complicated than that in the forum, that's only because we have a lawyer making it more complicated than it really is.) I see nothing easy about the PMO issue once you throw Holmes' story into the mix, or the conflicting reports as to where and when it was found. So don't throw it in... it's not necessary. Let's see if I can recap: During the course of his day, March 12, 1963 Oswald kept detailed records of the projects he worked upon for JCS. His timesheet shows no breaks prior to 10:30am - the time of the Kleins envelope postmark. In fact, there is no time during that day when Ozzie can take care of this errand. All the USPS reports state that the PMO, if real, would have been purchased in the morning of March 12 while Ozzie is at work. Plus, does it make sense to microfilm the envelope and not the PMO enclosed inside? That's another easy thing for people to grasp. But it's a little problematic because people are known to cheat on time sheets. On page 14 of this folder http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/34791we get a report from LH Stephens USPS Inspector in charge who claims the same thing as Holmes, that "a check was made of the issued stubs of the Dallas office from March 1 through March 13 and only one money order in this amount was found" IOW we should see a PMO stub for $21.45 from the Dallas office as definitive proof that THAT PMO was purchased on that date by A. Hidell and made out to Kleins - but we don't ever get to see it. Another easy thing to understand. But not seeing the stub does not mean it doesn't exist. The item of evidence which appears in numerous reports as being found and leading to the recovery of the PMO, is not in evidence and Holmes can't remember the name of one of his own clerks who found it... Uh, right .

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported Innocent Explanations for Mail Order Rifle Anomalies Version 5 Date: 3/4/16 Substantive changes in red. UNEXPLAINED ANOMALIES IN ALL CAPS FBI Locates the Hidell Purchase Order at Klein's The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession by 2:15 Dallas time on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after discovering that Crescent had sold the C2766 rifle to Klein's. The FBI searches Klein's records and the Internal Invoice matching the C2766 rifle is found. (This is "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7").SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): It takes seven hours to locate the Hidell order because only the rifle's serial number and an approximate date of sale were known. Thousands of internal invoices have to be pulled and inspected. The FBI then finds on microfilm two purchase orders that matches the price and payment method as indicated on the Internal Invoice. One was paid for with an American Express MO, the other with a postal MO. The latter is suspected of being the offending purchase order, or what Chief Curry will later call the "Order Letter." (This is CE773). The Order Letter consists of an order form clipped out of the Feb. 1963 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed. The FBI quickly determines that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald. Internal Invoice Information: A. Hidell customer name; 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid via money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE". Order Letter Information: a few words in Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price. WHY DID THIS SEARCH TAKE 7 HOURS? HOW COULD THE FBI AUTHENTICATE OSWALD’S HANDWRITING FROM WHAT LITTLE TEXT WAS IN THE ORDER LETTER? (THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY ORDER YET.) Purchase Order Information is Released to the Press SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/23/16): Somebody in the FBI was given a copy of the Internal Invoice (and perhaps also the Order Letter) and was assigned to search for Klein's ads matching the C2766 rifle. He finds one. The ad has a large "$12.78" price printed on it. The agent notes the 3/20/63 processing/shipping date on the Internal Invoice, and determines it to be a suitable "purchase date." He clumsily doesn't realize that the $12.78 price didn't include the scope. (Or perhaps he has heard that the Texas Sports Shop had added the scope later.) This information is passed on to Chief Curry of the DPD. SDL HYPOTHESIS (2/24/16): The Texas Sports Shop episode (with Dial Ryder) is an unrelated event. The FBI nevertheless investigates it. It may reveal that the original scope was replaced with a second one. EVEN I, AS THE AUTHOR OF THIS HYPOTHESIS, HAVE A HARD TIME BUYING IT. MAYBE THE PART ABOUT A REPLACEMENT SCOPE COULD BE BELIEVABLE. BUT TO ME THE WHOLE DIAL RYDER THING WREAKS OF CONTRIVANCE THAT IS BEYOND WHAT WC APOLOGISTS ATTRIBUTE TO DIAL RYDER. I THEREFORE CALL UPON DVP TO ANSWER THIS. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 at ~7:00 PM Dallas time, Chief Jesse Curry comments on the Order Letter. He reports that the price of the rifle, including the scope, was $12.78; that it “was advertised in some magazine for that [price];” that the purchase date was Mar. 20, 1963; and that the writing had been authenticated as Oswald's. This info had been provided to the DPD by the FBI. On the evening of Nov. 23, the media began reporting the following information regarding the rifle purchase: 1) Mar. 20 purchase date; 2) $12.78 price tag; and 3) that the order handwriting was Oswald’s. Some in the media had a Klein’s catalog ad showing the $12.78 price. (See the Frank Reynolds Video in Post 102.) WHY DID IT TAKE NEARLY A WEEK FOR THE FBI TO CORRECT THE PRICE OF THE RIFLE BEING REPORTED BY THE PRESS? The price being $19.95, not $12.78. FBI Locates the Money Order According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information is received from the VP of Klein's bank, Robert Wilmouth. -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order. -- On Mar. 16 the bank sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18, according to Wilmouth. SDL HYPOTHESIS (3/4/16): Klein's deposit slip is accidentally hand-dated Feb. 15, 1963 instead of the correct date of deposit, Mar. 15, 1963. Only the carbon copy of the deposit slip, without any bank deposit stamps, was presented to the WC as evidence. William Waldman, the VP of Klein's, testified that he couldn't tell from that what the date of deposit was. WHY DIDN'T THE WC VERIFY THE CORRECT DATE OF THE DEPOSIT BY PRESENTING INTO EVIDENCE THE BANK RECEIPT (SUPPOSEDLY) STAMPED ON THE BACK SIDE OF KLEIN'S DEPOSIT SLIP? OR BY PRODUCING A KLEIN'S BANK STATEMENT SHOWING THE DEPOSIT? DVP HYPOTHESIS: Somebody in the FBI transmitted the wrong total price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45). This led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM EST on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell.[question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?] The postal money order was recovered at 9:35 PM EST (8:35 PM Dallas time) on Nov. 23. Corrections to Address Jim DiEugenio: Post 161 on this page. Addressed! Information to Review David Josephs: Posts 129 and 135 on this page. Jim Hargrove: Post 145 on this page. Important Topics to Address Later Jim DiEugenio: The 1962 rifle shipment that was replace with a 1963 one. (See post 161 on this page, item 2. Also previous related posts.) Search Keywords alternate explanation for incorrect rifle information being reported

I think there's a good chance that the "Extra Copy" of the deposit ticket was never sent to the bank by Klein's. It's a carbon copy of the original ticket that could very well have just stayed with Klein's all the time for their records. So if it never was sent to First National, of course it would never have been stamped by the bank. It certainly does look like a carbon copy. Would a carbon copy have gone to the bank with the original, and been stamped? I think the answer to both questions would be no. It makes a whole lot of sense, then, that Waldman would say that he had no way of knowing the date of deposit.

Talk about a loaded question! Regardless, I think you're asking the wrong people. Other than for the Postmaster General and those close to him, those in the Postal Service wouldn't know anything about FRB regulations or bank procedures. The obvious people to contact would be those who actually stamped financial instruments... bank employees.

David J., The reason the PMO issue is important (not a distraction) is because it has a short learning curve and is easy to understand.