Sandy Larsen

I should have clarified that the City Prefix indicates the location of the issuing bank. I believe that the issuing bank for postal money orders is the U.S. Post Office itself, but I haven't been able to verify that. In 1963 the U.S, Post Office was headquartered in the Old Post Office and Clock Tower building in Washington D.C. So I imagine that is the reason for Washington D.C. being the designated city.

I should have said "FRB Marks" instead of "FRB numbers." Thanks for pointing that out. I haven't spent the time yet to understand what exactly the marks mean. But I know there are marks. And I thought I did see numbers when I took a quick glance at some of my checks. But of course I'll have to look at some 1963 checks to see what the marks were at that time.

You, Jim, should be very familiar with those two initials -- BS -- what with the fact you believe in every one of these incredibly ridiculous things.... jfk-archives/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81/The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes I'll comment on DVP's list items that I feel knowledgeable enough to make an accurate statement: 1.) Oswald didn't fire a single shot at JFK. But David, there is no evidence Oswald shot a rifle that day, whereas there is evidence that he didn't. James is right. 6.) Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods. There is no evidence Oswald paid for a rifle bought from Klein's. 14.) Buell Wesley Frazier lied about a bunch of stuff after the assassination, including the whopper about seeing Oswald carrying a large bag into the TSBD. I know that Frazier testified that the package fit between Oswald's armpit and his cupped hand, and that it wasn't long enough for the Carcano to fit. I watched the interview myself. Now, if he testified otherwise at another time, he had be lying at least once. 17.) The autopsy report is pure bunk, which almost certainly means that DiEugenio thinks that all three autopsy doctors (Humes, Finck, and Boswell) lied out their collective assholes about President Kennedy's wounds. More than forty witnesses saw a gaping hole in the back of JFK's head, and these were all medical and other credible witnesses, like SS and FBI agents. Yet the autopsy back-of-head photo shows absolutely no damage whatsoever. Forty some odd medical people cannot be wrong about what they saw. James is right. 20.) All of the physical evidence that leads to Lee Oswald in the two Nov. 22 murders (JFK's and Tippit's) has been faked, planted, manipulated, or manufactured in order to falsely incriminate a patsy named Lee Harvey. Can you explain how Oswald left his wallet at the Tippett murder scene and yet still had it when he was caught at the movie theater? Right there is rock solid evidence of framery in the Tippett case. And the fake money order is rock-solid evidence of framery in the JFK case. It need not be made more difficult than that to see that James is right. 21.) There were very likely at least two "Lee Oswalds" running around in various locations before the assassination. (In general, DiEugenio pretty much believes everything in John Armstrong's book of fantasy about there being "2 Oswalds" and "2 Marguerites". This proves that NO theory is too outrageous or preposterous for Mr. DiEugenio's gullible palate.) I haven't read the whole Harvey and Lee book. But from what I have seen, there clearly were two Oswalds. And Armstrong is proving more and more to be a credible researcher. Of all of us, he was the first and only one to understand the money order punch holes. I think James is right again..

Well I have shown, subsequent to your post here, that the MO in question would definitely have been processed by the Federal Reserve Bank. As all MOs still are today. Federal Reserve Banks do use stamps on the backs of financial instruments when they process them. And the wording on the reverse side of the MO refers to the use of bank stamps on the MO. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... But I'll tell you what, Hank... show me a processed postal money order that has no stamps, and I'll consider conceding to your side.

Hi Sandy, Respectfully, in my opinion, it's not proof of that. Regular paper money orders wouldn't have the keypunch card holes; as they can't feed through the machine readers like the card stock ones. They would serve no purpose on thin paper. Have you ever seen one of those suckers in action? Have you ever fed a stack of punched cards through a machine reader? Since the PO MO in question has the keypunch card holes - meant to be fed through, and read by machine readers - then the PO MO in question must be card stock. As far as I can see. But of course, I couldn't see the evidence that PO MO's need to be stamped by a bank, either. Does anyone have any evidence that's anything more than an assumption? Hank Team "Opinions are Not Evidence" Member Hank, When I read your post, it seemed at first like you are agreeing with what I said. With this statement of yours "Since the PO MO in question has the keypunch card holes - meant to be fed through, and read by machine readers - then the PO MO in question must be card stock." you are concluding that the Hidell MO is made with card stock. Right? That is also what I believe. But if it is made with card stock, why is it that the "Mar 12 1963" postal stamp so readily bled through to the back? The fact that it bled though indicates that the MO we see is actually paper stock, not card stock. And this conclusion contradicts the conclusion of the prior paragraph.

umm... When they were stealing the money order, they thought it better just to make a copy lest a bank teller notices and reports the missing money order? I dunno! But I'm putting a lot of thought into it.

James, do you know if this 1961 uncashed postal money order is posted somewhere? I couldn't find it.

That is amazing.

Proof that postal money orders were processed by Federal Reserve Banks can be seen right on the Hidell MO itself. Right below the MO's serial number (2,202,130,462) is the following symbol: 15-119 ------ 000 This is the old-style Federal Reserve Routing Number that was used back when manual sorting was still being done. This form of the number is referred to as the "fractional form" for obvious reasons. It has been superseded by a non-fractional form, but the fractional form is still required by law to be printed on all bank checks, including money orders. (Note that the horizontal line may be replaced with a "/" slash, so the number will fit on a single line of text.) Fractional Form of Federal Reserve Routing Number XX-YYY -------- ZZZ XX = City Prefix YYYY = ABA Institution Identifier (a.k.a. ABA Routing Number) ZZZ = Federal Reserve Routing Symbol The City Prefix indicates the location of the issuing bank. It is 15 on the Hidell MO, signifying Washington, DC.* The ABA Routing Number 119 is used for postal money orders.** The Federal Reserve Routing Symbol 0000 is used for postal money orders and Treasury checks.*** (The leftmost 0 is removed for the fractional form.) The following document http://tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/v2/p4/c700.html outlines the procedure Federal Reserve Banks are to use when processing postal money orders. Quoting from this document: "There are a number of outstanding 'punch card' postal money orders that were issued prior to the introduction of paper style postal money orders in the spring of 1973, which bear the ABA routing number 0000-01 19. These money orders have a commercial life of 20 years. Processing instructions for the 'punch card' postal money orders are in II TFM 4-7070 of these instructions." [emphasis mine] We can see that this refers to the form of MO supposedly used by Oswald.The document refers to these MO's as "Old Style Money Order: A card style money order bearing ABA routing number 0000-0119." They are to be processed as follows: " 'Punch card' money orders that have the ABA routing number 0000-0119 will be handled as mutilated items. They should be identified as old style 'punch card' money orders on the PS Form 1901 for code 004." "Mutilated items" are those that cannot be processed in the normal fashion. In conclusion, we see that the Hidell money order was indeed intended to be processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. And so it would have had FRB marks stamped on it had it been processed. It was never processed. *Source for 15 City Prefix code used for Washington ,DC http://www.eccho.org/uploads/Supplemental-1_2-1_City%20State%20prefixes.pdf **Sources for 119 ABA Routing Number used for Postal Money Orders https://www.frbservices.org/files/servicesetup/check/pdf/check21_special_sort_options_guide.pdf http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title12-vol3/xml/CFR-2009-title12-vol3-part229-appA.xml ***Source for 0000 Federal Reserve Routing Symbol used for Postal Money Orders http://www.eccho.org/uploads/Supplemental-1_2-1_City%20State%20prefixes.pdf Other Sources: http://www.eccho.org/uploads/Supplemental-1_2-1_City%20State%20prefixes.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routing_transit_number#Federal_Reserve EDIT: Changed "FRB numbers" to "FRB marks."

Thanks James. Thanks also to Robert, Chris, and Jon. Appreciation like this makes it worth the effort it takes to contribute. Of course, desire to know the truth is the real motivator. Special thanks to DVP, who says my work is "amazing." Post #22 in http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22418&page=2

When I was searching for information on money orders using punch codes, I came across the same news article pointed out by David Von Pein: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19620623&id=2PQiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Nc0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5330,4714873&hl=en This 1962 article reports on a new money that uses punched holes on "IBM-like" cards which could be read by machines. At the time, I dismissed the relevancy of the article because IBM cards were made of a thick/stiff stock of paper, whereas the Hidell MO was clearly made of a thin paper. Given that the Hidell money order similarly used punched holes, I figured that it must be some kind of predecessor to the IBM-like card MOs being tested at select locations, as mentioned in the article. At that point I wondered how it was possible for a machine to read MOs like the Hidell one. Such thin sheets of paper could not have been kept in correct alignment for a machine to read the holes. Some form of "registration" was needed. ("Registration," in technical parlance, is a term used to mean "means for maintaining correct alignment.") At the time, I figured that the round holes in the MO must have been what was used for registration purposes. The MOs would have been placed on a plate with pins perfectly matched to the size and location of the MO's round holes, and these would hold the MOs securely in place while the machine read the rectangular holes. I later rejected that idea when I looked more closely and noticed that the holes seemed to be spaced perfectly for holding numerical information. After that I simply forgot about the registration problem, as I went on to decode the round holes. Well, today I remembered the registration problem when I again saw that 1962 news report about the IBM-like card MOs. And I thought, since the round holes were not used for registration, how was it possible for a machine to have reliably read the holes in MOs like the Hidell one? Well, now I realize that the Hidell MO is almost certainly the same MO reported on in the news article. That explains how the holes in the card could have been read by a machine. It makes perfect sense that the Dallas post office began using the new card around the same time as the post offices noted in the news article. (Actually, the post offices noted were in "... nine states, ... Florida, Georgia, and North and South Carolina, all in the Atlanta postal region, and five states in the Denver region." Texas was likely one of the five states in the Denver region, with Dallas being among the post offices using the new money order) Having concluded that, I now have a full appreciation for John Armstrong's criticism regarding bleed-thru of stamps on the Hidell MO. In my opinion, the bleed-thru of the "Mar 12 1963" postal stamp is PROOF POSITIVE that the Hidell MO is made of regular (thin) paper, not the card stock that it should have been made of. THIS IS YET ANOTHER SMOKING GUN OF A FAKED MONEY ORDER. This money order is fake, fake, fake! It is strong evidence Oswald was being framed as the shooter of JFK.

Once again I am amazed by the depth of research done by John Armstrong.

Wow.

According to the two x-rays techs, ONLY the portable machine was used. The non-portable x-ray equipment was on the 4th floor. IMO the body would have been seen at sometime during the required round trip, and we would have at least heard stories that this had happened. ALL of the removed internal organs could have been transported to the high-res x-ray machine and x-rayed en masse by one or both techs while Humes and the others continued with their work. With this option readily available, what possible reason could they have for breaking out the meat cleaver? Hmmm...the topic of a frangible as well as an 'exotic' type of bullet was brought up by the FBI, who immediately called the FBI Lab to ask about these alternatives to an FMJ. The FBI concluded these were possibilities. Of course, If you are not allowed to produce evidence of a frangible bullet then you would NOT use the equipment that would have revealed one if it was present.The cut-up organs were 'put back into the body'. Is this normal procedure, or was it a quick and easy way to get rid of incriminating evidence? Tom All good points, Tom. Maybe I'm working too hard to make an honest man out of Humes. It's just that Robert's latest theory, if on track, seems to make Humes's testimony more honest. And David Lifton's new book apparently will do the same. Other than for the latest change he made that required burning the first autopsy report, Humes seemed to have been a more honest broker than I thought.

And after receiving your Masters Degree in "Keypunch Hole Evaluation" just a few hours ago after your one-day crash course at Keypunch School, you actually feel confident enough to make the statement you just made about the Hidell money order having "no such holes punched" in it? Amazing. Thank you, David. Take a look at the following page, where I explain the holes in more detail: Rectangular and round punch codes on the Hidell money order explained.http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22434 All the holes are explained. There are no holes left for punched bank stamps.

It has been brought it to my attention that I haven't really explained how the holes punched in the Hidell money order are to be decoded. Yes, I see that I am guilty of that. So I will explain it here. It's not difficult. But first, for the record, the topic was first brought up on this forum when David Von Pein proclaimed that the "money order wasn't cashed" theory had been debunked. He and other LNers came to that conclusion when they notice that one Brian Castle had theorized that the holes were punched during the processing of the money order. They assumed that the holes were being used as a substitute for traditional bank stamps, and that this explained the absence of those stamps on the reverse side of the money order. As I will show, they are wrong. Following are the front and rear sides of the money order: You can see the tiny rectangular holes near the left end of the front of the money order. I drew straight lines through the holes, both vertical and horizontal, so it would be easy to keep them in order. And also so I could label the meaning of each row, as you will see in a moment. Here is the reverse side of the money order with my lines added: You can see that I have numbered some of the horizontal lines 0 through 9. A popular punch code used at the time was the Hollerith code, widely used for computer punch cards. Because the Hollerith code uses twelve rows, not ten, I had to add two extra lines, which labeled X and Y. It's easy to read the code once that the rows are labeled. The first number is marked by the right-most vertical line. What you do is see where that line crosses over a hole. Unfortunately it's difficult to see that particular hole. It's also difficult to see the hole crossed over by the second vertical line from the right. For now, just trust me that these first two lines cross their respective holes at horizontal line 2. So the first two numbers are decoded as 22. The next hole is easy to see. Look at the third vertical line from the right and see where it crosses its hole. It crosses at horizontal line 0. So that digit is 0, and so far we have 220. Repeat this procedure for the other seven vertical lines to get the seven remaining digits. The fourth hole is also difficult to see. It is at horizontal line 2. With that we have 2202. The remaining holes are all easy to see. The fifth line from the right crosses its hole at horizontal line 1, so we have 22021. Continuing on, we end up with the following ten digits: 2202130462 or 2,202,130,462 This is precisely the same number that is printed on the front of the the money order. It is the money order number, the equivalent to a check number. LNers may want people to believe that these holes are punched when the check is being processed, and that this somehow signifies that the money order was actually cashed. But that is simply not true. The holes merely duplicate what is printed on the front of the money order and has nothing to do with clearing of the check. The holes are punched at the same time the money order number is printed, before the money orders are even issued to post offices. You may have noticed two more vertical lines located further to the left. The first crosses two holes and this pair represents the letter P. The last (leftmost) line crosses the horizontal line labeled "Y" and this represents the "-" (dash) mark. (You need to have access to a Hollerith code table to see these.) I haven't spent any time trying to figure out the meaning of these. Finally, there are five round holes on the opposite half of the money order. At first I ignored them since five digits isn't sufficient to represent a number on a bank stamp. I thought perhaps they represented a post office routing number. But I have since spent more time on them and discovered that they actually represent the number 02145, which obviously refers to the $21.45 value of the of the money order. So in summary, the ten rectangular holes represent the money order number and are punched when the money order is manufactured. The round holes represent the price/value of the money order and are punched when the money order is purchased. I like to use the Hidell money order against LNers because it is extremely reliable evidence that Oswald was being framed as the shooter of the assassin's rifle. It's impossible for LNers to explain away how bank stamps can be missing from a canceled money order. But of course they will try.

Obviously, in 1963 and thenabouts, money orders had their issue numbers both printed and punched on them before they were issued to post offices. My guess is that the Hidell money order is real, was stamped on the front at a post office, but was either filled out by an impostor or Oswald was told to fill it out under false pretenses. It obviously was never cashed. Even if banks did use punch holes for endorsements at the time, so what? The Hidell money order has no such holes punched. Ive looked at several canceled checks from that era and they all have multiple endorsement and other stamps on them. Some of the checks also have holes punched in them. The ones with holes were all issued by the U.S. Government. So the U.S. Government apparently used punch codes for internal bookkeeping purposes. I wouldn't be surprised if other large institutions used such codes as well.

Hi all, Check this out if you're interested: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22418 Post #10 debunks the debunking.

David, Well I hate to be the one to burst your bubble... but... here is what I found. The rectangular holes turns out indeed to be a Hollerith code, which consists of 12 rows of holes. The hard part in decoding the holes was determining which row was X and which was 9 (the two extremes). It turns out that one row at the top has no holes, and two rows at the bottom have no holes. Once I figured that out the rest was easy. The encoded "message" begins with the rightmost hole in the above image. (Its hard to see the holes for the first two and the fourth characters, but they can easily be seen on the front side of the money order.) Here is the decoded message: 2202130462 P - So what is this? It's the issue number of the money order, as printed on its front side! As for the round holes, they represent a five digit number. One of the following four, I believe: 13256 65231 86743 34768 This could be a routing number for the post office that issued the MO. It doesn't have enough digits to represent a particular account at a particular bank (account number + routing number). And it certainly doesn't have enough digits to represent a check reference number that a federal reserve bank might stamp on a check. So the problem still stands that a Carcano rifle wasn't paid for with this money order. Nor was anything else.

Ray, To me it looks like the guy is standing behind the truck. But I think you're posting this in the wrong thread. Hi Sandy, If you enlarge the photo, you will see that he appears to be in the back of the truck. I posted it here because you were talking about shots from the South Knoll. Ohhh, okay! Thanks. Yeah, that gives me a better idea as to what the south terrain looks like.

Ray, To me it looks like the guy is standing behind the truck. But I think you're posting this in the wrong thread.

Roy, I'd like to see a diagram showing how that could be done. A cross sectional view of the plaza showing how a trajectory from the south knoll could possibly hit JFK's neck without hitting the windshield or the bar the runs across and above the passenger/driver partition.