Micah Mileto

Final Charade - for real this time.

Some topics teased:

1. Lifton doubles down on the alterations being performed before the autopsy and outside of the autopsy room, contradicting Horne et. al

2. It is likely that Oswald was killed at Parkland hospital after the shooting, as there was a noted presence of air bubbles in his heart area.

3. Oswald was meant to have been shot and killed in the Depository with no witnesses, the Jack Ruby shooting was a hasty backup plan.

4. Oswald most likely did carry a large package containing a rifle into the TSBD, however he was not a shooter.

14 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. Not even close.

When Perry et. al say that the trach incision was 2-3 centimeters, they're not talking about the whole incision over the neck, correct?

It's just that from hearing Perry's testimony about cutting the strap muscles, and knowing that a trach incision is a different thing from the incision in the neck, and also considering the metal trach tube that was inserted in and out of the throat, this issue could just be a bunch of baloney. Especially since Crenshaw's reliability is in question.

Obviously the autopsy doctors at least strongly considered the possibility that the throat wound was a bullet hole, and stuck probes through and into it, but the 6.5 cm wound with widely gaping irregular edges could be the real consequence from the Parkland incisions.

On 11/26/2016 at 1:01 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I'm having trouble visualizing what you mean. 

23 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

There is a new organization that recently announced its existence:

Citizens Against Political Assassinations

 

http://capa-hq.com

 

And there is now John Barbour's Citizens for Assassination Justice, which sponsors the Ten Most Wanted that is posted here in the forum today.

 

Why is the CAPA section on the MLK case so "neutral"? Wasn't it physically proven, with ballistics, that James Earl Ray was framed?

Just now, Cliff Varnell said:

 

4 inches below the bottom of your clothing collars is the EOP?

We live in a post-fact world now, sorry I forgot.

Actually, now that I think about it, it sounds more like the cowlick.

Just now, Cliff Varnell said:

 

So when Jenkins said he could see the probe push on the pleural cavity and the probe didn't enter the chest cavity he got that wrong?

Both could've happened.

3 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

 

The bullet holes in JFK's clothes are 4 inches below the bottom of the collars.

Sound like the base of the head?

Sounds like the EOP.

4 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Check Finck's ARRB testimony and Roy Kellerman's WC testimony.

There was no connection made at all.

James Curtis Jenkins was a lab tech at the autopsy and made this statement to David Lifton:

(quote on)

I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura

[the lining of the chest cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an indentation...

where it was pushing the skin up...There was no entry into the chest cavity...it would have

been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then low in the chest cavity...

somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from the

heart] or the bronchus in the lungs.

(quote off)

 

Yes, but I mean a forced connection. The correct word to use would be "shoved". The probe was shoved from the back wound to the throat wound. Thanks for the other reference to a probe.

In a 8/29/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness James Curtis Jenkins, Jenkins said that he recalled that Dr. Humes "attempted to probe the back wound", but "he said he didn't believe the doctor found that the probe "...penetrated into the chest."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=329#relPageId=5&tab=page

It is unclear whether he's talking about probing with a finger or probing with a rod, because the report goes on to say (on page 8):

"Mr. Jenkins recalls Humes trying to probe the wound with his finger which enabled him to reach the end of the wound. He said that around the time of the probing they repeated took x-rays of the area."

I think I have become familiar with the evidence that the autopsy doctors strongly considered the possibility that the throat wound was an exit for a bullet that entered the base of the head, and according to witnesses Lipsey and Robinson, they probed this trajectory through the body.

What's even more strange is that a probe was apparently connected from the back wound to the throat wound. It would appear that this occurred during the autopsy, however for some strange reason Humes, Boswell, and Finck never brought this up.

Here's a list of evidence I've got so far for this happening - am I missing anything?

1. According to a 1967 CBS memo from Bob Richter, Jim Snyder (a CBS executive?) is a personal friend of Dr. Humes, Humes told him that during the autopsy a probe was connected from the back wound to the throat wound, and that an x-ray was made of this probe. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=597

2. The 8/11/1978 HSCA deposition of photographer Robert L. Knudsen features Knudsen speaking extensively about remembering seeing films of probes going through wounds in the body. Knudsen said that he saw two, and as many as three probes in different photographs going into/through the body.  This included a probe seen going from high in the back of the neck to the front of the neck, and probe that went from lower in the back to the front of the neck (saying "the point in the back was a little bit lower than the point in the front"). 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=666#relPageId=23&tab=page

audio available here: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/HSCA_Medical_Interviews.html

3. A 8/23/1977 HSCA interview report with autopsy witness Dr. Robert F. Karnei, Jr. says that Karnei recalls the body being probed and photographs of this probing being taken.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=325#relPageId=5&tab=page

Furthermore, In a 7/16/1996 testimony with the ARRB, autopsy photographer John Stringer said that although he could not recall taking photographs of probing of the body, he remembered a probe being inserted into the back wound and the throat wound, both which did not exit.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&search=probe#relPageId=17&tab=page

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=798&relPageId=36&search=probe

The audio was just posted to the JFK Assassination Forum Youtube channel.

Interesting. Hope this thread doesn't prune again.

Just now, Robert Prudhomme said:

"......... I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. "

Translated, he only cut the sternothyroid muscle on one side of the trachea. If the trachea was deviated to JFK's left, and was hiding behind the left sternothyroid muscle, and Perry was trying to access the trachea, it would be a safe bet, I believe, that he partially severed the left sternothyroid muscle.

Now, aren't you even a little curious as to why JFK's trachea was deviated to his left?

It's obviously doesn't come close to being as cut-and-dry like Lifton or Horne lets on. The incision in the neck was probably longer than 2-3 centimeters.

Why was the trachea deviated to the left?

11 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Why would Perry cut through the entire strap muscle if he was only attempting to uncover the slightly deviated trachea? How far do you think the trachea was deviated to JFK's left?

Surgically speaking, it would be rather foolish to cut through the entirety of the sternothyroid muscle as, should JFK have lived, this muscle would have to be reattached at some point in time. Far easier to sew a small cut on the side of this muscle than to reattach the entire muscle, and healing would take far less time.

P.S.

Reading your post again, I get the impression you believe Perry cut the strap muscles on either side of the trachea. Is this what you believe?

I don't know. But there is a difference between a tracheotomy/trach incision, like what Perry and friends remember as being about 2-3 centimeters, and the incision on the neck. If there was any cutting of the strap muscles on the sides of the windpipe, that really sounds to me like that could be consistent with the meaty wound in the autopsy photos. If Lifton let on in his 1966 interviews that he was talking about the neck incision, not just the windpipe incision, then the doctors may have said "oh yeah, if that's what you're talking about, that was longer than 5 centimeters".

5 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Perry was likely severing part of the left sternothyroid muscle. With the trachea deviated to the left, the site on the trachea for making the incision would be covered by the sternothyroid muscle. Why do you think the incision on the neck would have to be 5 cm.?

Have you figured out why the trachea was deviated to the left?

Look at the location of the strap muscles in relation to the length of the chin. My chin is about 5 centimeters. If Dr. Perry was cutting both sides of the strap muscles, that sounds like it could totally be consistent with the 6.5 cm wound with widely gaping, irregular edges if you also consider the insertion and removal of the trach tube.

1 hour ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Micah

" Dr. PERRY - Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. "

It is necessary, when reading medical evidence regarding the trachea, to be able to distinguish between a "tracheotomy" and a "tracheostomy", in order to avoid confusion.

A tracheotomy is the procedure of surgically opening the skin overlying the trachea and then making an opening in the trachea to accommodate the tracheotomy breathing tube.

A tracheostomy is the actual site of this opening of the trachea, and the breathing tube inserted therein.

In other words, a tracheotomy is performed to establish a tracheostomy.

In the quote from Perry above, he clearly states that he made a transverse (horizontal) incision in the skin and subcutaneous tissue overlying the trachea, just as can be observed in the autopsy photos, although the autopsy photos seem to show a much larger incision than the 2-3 cm. (.8-1.2 inches) incision described by Perry et al.

If you made a 2-3 cm. incision transversely across the trachea, you would have cut halfway through the trachea.

BTW, why do you think the trachea was deviated to the left, so much so that Perry had to "sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea"?

If Perry was severing the strap muscles, it sounds like we're talking about an incision on the neck at least 5 centimeters.

14 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

"Dr. Perry made an incision across the bullet wound, just large enough to accommodate a breathing tube. During a phone conversation in 1966 with author David Lifton, Perry said the incision was "two to three centimeters" wide [4, p. 272]. Drs. Paul Peters and Robert McClelland, also present in trauma room one, said the incision was "sharp" and "smooth," respectively [4, p. 275]. After the breathing tube was removed, the incision closed, revealing the original wound in the throat, as described by Drs. Charles Crenshaw and Malcolm Perry. Dr. Crenshaw recalled, "When the body left Parkland there was no gaping, bloody defect in the front of the throat, just a small bullet hole in the thin line of Perry's incision" [5, p. 54] Dr. Perry described the bullet wound in the throat as "inviolate" [6, pp. 100-101]."

Yes, but it really sounds like the trach incision is being talked about as a completely different thing than the anterior neck incision.

42 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

I don't quite understand what you are getting at.

So where's the beef? Why should I suspect that the throat wound was illicitly probed/tampered with before the official autopsy?

From what I understand, this is one of the most overblown issues in all of JFK medical evidence.

When Dr. Perry, Dr.  Carrico, and Dr. Baxter say that the trach incision was certainly less than 4 centimeters, it seems like they consider the trachea incision a completely separate thing from the slit incised across the neck.

Mr. SPECTER - Dr. Perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea.
Will you describe that as precisely as you can, please?

Dr. PERRY - Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea.

Severing the exterior strap muscles? Most diagrams of this show those on the sides of the level of the chin. My chin is at least 5 centimeters across. This could all have a simple, common sense explanation.

15 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Do you have much experience with firearms? It does not explain the shallow back wound at all. In fact, the shallow back wound is one of the most well perpetuated myths of the entire assassination.

Ain't messin with that lol

1 minute ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

What part makes total sense to you, Micah? And what do you suppose the word "short" in the expression "short shot" is referring to?

It explains the shallow back wound.

2 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

"..... and we also realized that this bullet - that hit him in the back - is what we called in the military a "short shot," which means that the powder in the bullet was defective so it didn't have the power to push the projectile - the bullet-clear through the body."

Do any of you still think there is anything believable about this statement? (outside of an FMJ bullet being capable of passing through JFK's chest)

That makes total sense. I wonder if that could explain some of the gunpowder witnesses.

Does anybody have a copy of the O'Connor's Florida newspaper interview(s)?

https://www.amazon.com/Reporter-Who-Knew-Too-Much/dp/1682610977/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476925509&sr=8-1&keywords=Dorothy+Kilgallen

The Reporter Who Knew Too Much: The Mysterious Death of What's My Line TV Star and Medic Icon Dorothy Kilgallen by Mike Shaw

Trailer for the book:

Looks very promising, a good source to settle old information and present new evidence.

Is the "half dollar bill" issue a commonly accepted aspect of LHO lore?

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif

http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0105a.htm

The DPD note doesn't refer to where these dollar bills were found, but Oswald's wallet (the one he was arrested with?) had a partially ripped whole bill. All three artifacts apparently had strange three-digit numbers written on them - "180", "221", and "300". A similar situation has been proposed with the box top found in his pocket.