Paul Jolliffe
-
Posts
760 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Paul Jolliffe
-
-
37 minutes ago, Paul Bacon said:
Jim, I believe that window is on the west side of the TSBD. I was curious about this Dillard photo when we were talking about the 6th floor escapees fleeing down the passenger elevator --why would this person have traveled all the way to the west side if his aim was to get down the elevator shaft as quickly as possible? Supposedly, Tom Dillard took the photo 15 seconds after the last shot.
Ain't it peculiar that just as the authorities get their hands on key photos and films, why "poof!" Those films just go up in smoke, accidentally damaged (with profuse apologies, mind you) forever!
Huh.
Just a coincidence, I guess . . .
Here's yet another one:
Note: on the Dillard Photos:The HSCA was requested by the SRI
International to be allowed at a cost of $5,000.00 to enhance by means
of state of the ark equipment to find possible hidden information within
the negatives of the Dillard photos....of the TSBD...Dillard had custody
of his original negatives, but he co-operated and turned over twelve of
the negatives..four eventually being processed....SRI would not accept
liability and made this clear...in early 78 the study resulted in the
findings above.
Unfortunately ,the negatives, particularly frame 24,
"........became detached from the agitation apparatus and the gelatine
was abraded during the time it was freely agitated without
support"....in otherwords they ruined it.....they blamed it on a
malfunction of equipment ...they extended apologies and regrets to the
Committee and Dillard....
Robert Groden who was the HSCA independent consultant was asked to
comment ..on the damage...He found that negative # 8 also had been
damaged by a coating not originally on the negative...but now
evident...negative # 24 suffered also from this problem...( this is the
negative that showed the 6th floor window ) also part of this negative
appeared to have had it's emulsion rubbed off from the film base....To a
lay person, the negative looks terrible .....the emulsion on the
negative appears to have run down and melted into a pool of taffy like,
a pool below.... The left side of the sniper's double window in badly
affected, though the lower part of the snipers window escaped serious
damage ...the whole negative looked like it was worn and crackled...and
in otherwords the negative also had a tear (hole) in it......Dillard in
1979 received back his damaged goods , and copies of the SRI report, and
a letter and the Groden comments...Blakely lamely wrote Dillard that the
Committee was assured the process was safe and regretted the damage...."
These two historically signifigant frames had been irreversibly harmed
by experts."....(12) -
12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Trying to get back on topic, are there any clues to who was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository building parading around as an assassin of JFK? Probably so....
The first image below is a closeup capture from Dallas Morning News photographer Tom Dillard’s film taken seconds after the shots rang out in Dealey Plaza. This extreme closeup zooms in on just a part of the window closest to the so-called “sniper’s nest” on the SE corner of the TSBD. The face and right shoulder of a human figure appears to have been captured by Dillard there.
John A. added dotted lines to the image to show what we believe are the figure’s hairline, chin, and collar. Note the white shirt under the collar line.
Who could this man be?
Have we seen that hairline before?
Could the image at the left above be the same fellow who spent weeks leading up to the assassination creating scenes at the Sports Drome rifle range, the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership, the Southland Hotel, etc? Could it be the same man who shared his identity for years in a Cold War spy game with a Russian-speaking emigre who traveled to the Soviet Union and eventually became the patsy in the JFK hit? This is hard to prove, of course, but to see all the "Harvey and Lee" evidence John A. has compiled and I've put on the Web, click on the link below:
To see John's write-up on the Escape from the Sixth Floor, just click on the link below:
Jim,
As I am sure you are aware (there are plenty here though who are not), the absolute proof beyond any doubt that the image is of a man in the far left - the southwest corner - window of the sixth floor in the uncropped Dillard photo is this:
The Warren Commission published Dillard Exhibit "B", a cropped version of the original photo, one in which the extreme left edge of the photo was cut. The only imagery omitted was the window in which the shadowy image of a man (above) appears.
There was only one reason to crop that photo - to hide the photographic disproof of the entire "official" - i.e. no - conspiracy - version of the murder.
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Dillard_Ex_B.pdf
-
Tony wrote "In previous topics, I've suggested the shooter seen by witnesses on the 6th floor was there to be seen. I also believe he let off at least one round . . ."
Tony, I agree. A professional sniper relies on being practically invisible to passers - by. No, the 6th floor man with the rifle, witnessed by many, was deliberately making himself visible in the minutes before the shooting. (Now, his partner/spotter/radioman was far less visible, and was not meant to be seen by casual observers, although Arnold Rowland saw him.)
The 6th floor man with the rifle was even projecting the rifle out of the window, so that just about anyone from any angle could see the rifle! He wanted to be noticed!
George Michael Evica noted long ago the sound distinction between the first "explosion" and the subsequent shots. Many, many witnesses described hearing something that did not immediately register in their minds as the shot from a high-powered rifle. Evica guessed that there was something different about the nature of that first noise, and he guessed that it was intended to disorient, distract and confuse the Secret Service to prevent an effective response to the real rifle shots moments later. He even used the word "cannon", although he was writing metaphorically. (Nobody actually fired a cannon at the president. It just sounded that way, maybe.)
Maybe Evica was right.
Other writers posed that the first shot perhaps was under-powered, thus explaining the shot that apparently only penetrated the president's back by an inch or two before disappearing (supposedly.) I don't know enough about the sound a defective bullet might make, but that theory sounds vaguely possible to me.
Is there anyone here who can reliably inform us as to the sound a defective bullet might make? Could that explain the difference in sound so many witnesses noted?
-
23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Tony,
I certainly think the throat wound was an entry wound, and I know people have debated endlessly about the “shallow” back wound, and how the WC laughably tried to move it. But since you brought this up when Paul J. and I were agreeing that “Oswald” was the primary designated patsy, I have to ask....
Are you suggesting that no one was shooting from the TSBD? Do you think Brennan, Euins, Jackson, Couch and undoubtedly others were lying about seeing a rifle in the window? Do you think those witnesses riding in the same car who heard Dallas Times photographer Robert Jackson contemporaneously say to them that he saw a rifle in the sixth floor window were also lying? And those guys on the fifth floor who heard the shots and the shells hitting the floor immediately above them were making it all up?
If not, then regardless of the actual wounds on Kennedy’s body, the conspirators clearly were establishing a shooter on the sixth floor of the TSBD. And if you’re going to assassinate a sitting U.S. President, you HAVE to have a patsy, no? Otherwise, the search for you will be relentless, and you will be caught.
What’s most disturbing about this is that the conspirators seemed to believe they could trust that the autopsy findings not point to a shot from anywhere but the rear.
Jim,
I absolutely agree that the conspirators had to control the autopsy findings, and of course, they did. We know who controlled the autopsy - high ranking members of the United States Armed Forces, most of whom seemed to be Navy Admirals. The Surgeon General of the USN, Vice Admiral Edward C. Kenney and Rear Admiral Calvin B. Galloway, the commander at Bethesda were in charge, according to Pierre Finck's New Orleans testimony.
Were others present, such as USAF Chief of Staff, General Curtis LeMay there as well?
Probably.
Ought that tell us something about the nature of the conspiracy itself?
-
11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:
John,
I actually had the privilege of chatting on the phone with Harold Weisberg several times over the final decade of his life (although I never got to meet him in person) and I remember a conversation with him about that very topic - he even placed a blow-up of the suspicious figure behind the fire escape in the Dal-Tex on the inside cover of his “Whitewash II - the FBI and Secret Service Cover-Up.”
On a related note, I remember seeing 25 years ago a Secret Service re-enactment photo taken from the third floor (not the sixth or seventh floor, nor the roof) of the Dal Tex, looking west down Elm. Does anyone else here remember such a photo taken from a LOW floor of the Dal Tex?
Found that photo!
It appeared on the first page of the story "The Assassin" by Ben H. Bagdikian in the December 14, 1963 issue of the Saturday Evening Post, pages 22 - 29. Note that the caption reads "From the same building where Oswald lay in ambush, a telescopic lens constructs an approximation of what the killer saw at the moment of tragedy" . . .
Now, why would anyone believe that the "killer" was in the Dal-Tex building? (Unless a shot really had been fired from that window. Which, as I pointed out earlier, Harold Weisberg believed was a very high probability and said so in print over 52 years ago!)
I don't know if this photo was taken by the Secret Service - it doesn't appear to be the same reenactment as seen in the "official" video below. We know about the Dal-Tex photo montage from Shel Hershorn, but I can't tell if this was from the same batch.
If the photo was taken by a staff photographer for the Saturday Evening Post, then the obvious question is "Why that window in that building?" I mean, they not only failed to "approximate" the official floor, they didn't even get the right building! And this photo would have taken weeks after the assassination!
No, the simplest reason this photo was taken, and the caption read as it does, is because the photographer and writer had been told that was where the assassin "lay in ambush", just as they wrote.
One other possibility: this really is a Secret Service reenactment photo, and somehow, the folks at the Saturday Evening Post got their hands on it. But that raises even more disturbing questions, namely "Why did the Secret Service take a reenactment photo from that window (of all places!) and why wasn't this photo in the Warren Exhibits?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5nqVgujl9c
-
4 hours ago, Tony Krome said:
Did any Parkland doctor mention a back wound?
Well, we have the death certificate from Admiral Burkley, JFK's personal doctor - the only man in the world who was:
1. riding in the motorcade and was an eye and ear witness
2. present throughout all of the desperate attempts to save JFK at Parkland Hospital
3. flew to Washington D.C. with the president's body aboard Air Force One and
4. present throughout the entire autopsy at Bethesda Naval Hospital
so naturally the Warren Commission did not call him as a witness!
(Way to go Warren Commission! Way to "investigate" the murder of the president of the United States! That's a lot of high-priced lawyering in action, right there!)
(Sorry about that. I tend to go off on the arrogance/incompetence/deceit of the Warren Commission members and their staff attorneys/lackeys/lickspittle yes-men/flunkies.)
Anyway, as you may know, Burkley's death certificate showed the president suffered a back wound "at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra" - in other words, in the president's back! Not the neck!
Why didn't the WC call Burkley as a witness?
Because he didn't believe that only one shooter could have done all the damage to the president! Burkley was too high-powered to ignore as a witness if he testified about what he saw, so of course they didn't dare call him!
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image0.htm
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/html/Image1.htm
-
9 hours ago, Tony Krome said:
Altgens 6 was taken moments after the noise that Hill heard and JFK was shot
What shot or shots had struck JFK before the frontal neck shot??
Oh I am not sure any shots had actually struck JFK before the throat wound. It would seem that at least one shot was fired - and missed - before the throat wound. Of course, since the limo was out of Zapruder’s sight behind the sign for a moment, it is possible the president had already received his back wound by Z - 225, when it re- emerges. But that is just a possibility, not a certainty.
-
On 3/27/2019 at 10:12 PM, John Butler said:
Thanks Tony,
I had missed or forgotten the last part of Clint Hill's statement. Maybe, it just didn''t sink in at the time. Clint is saying what one of my biases call for. That the Clint Hill / Jackie Kennedy scene actually occurred in front of the TSBD. And, those scenes were later transferred from the Zapruder Gap to where they are in the current version of the Zapruder film, past the Grassy Knoll.
At no time or at no where in Clint's statement does he transfer the action away from the turn into the intersection.
This is heresy to most conspiracy theorists. Maybe, Ronnie the xxxxx will comment again and tell me I don't have a credibility on this either.
As far as Altgens 6, the limo is supposed to be past the Stemmons Freeway sign and not in front of the TSBD as it might appear in Altgens 6. That's another fraud.
Paul is correct but for another reason. There is a frame in Towner I call the "hit X" frame that clearly show a shot or the effect of it in frames near.
Paul,
Harold Weisberg first noticed in 1967 that there appears to be shooters in the windows of the Dal-Tex. You can blow up Altgens 6 and see what appears to be a rifle and in other windows suspicious people there.
John,
I actually had the privilege of chatting on the phone with Harold Weisberg several times over the final decade of his life (although I never got to meet him in person) and I remember a conversation with him about that very topic - he even placed a blow-up of the suspicious figure behind the fire escape in the Dal-Tex on the inside cover of his “Whitewash II - the FBI and Secret Service Cover-Up.”
On a related note, I remember seeing 25 years ago a Secret Service re-enactment photo taken from the third floor (not the sixth or seventh floor, nor the roof) of the Dal Tex, looking west down Elm. Does anyone else here remember such a photo taken from a LOW floor of the Dal Tex?
-
3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:
Below is Hill's testimony which is relevant to what is depicted in Altgens 6
How do you account for this?
Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked to my right and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?
Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?
Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine.
Tony,
I believe Clint Hill is telling it as he remembered it, but “we came out of the curve and began to straighten up” is not a precise location. Since we are talking about only a matter of feet here, it would have been nice (and essential, if the Warren Commission were conducting a real investigation instead of cover-up) if we knew exactly where Clint Hill was when he heard the first shot. I mean, surely you don’t believe that Clint Hill heard nothing until the moment shown in Altgens 6, do you? After all, by that time, the shot (or shots) had already struck JFK! They would have been fired while the limo was somewhat further east, but again, thanks to the Warren Commission’s incompetence (deceit, actually), we just can’t really say exactly where.
All I pointed out was that a number of witnesses believed that the first shot - which missed the limo - was fired as the limo was completing its turn onto Elm. Further, the incredible, “accidental” mis-handling of the films that would have shown the limo at that moment heightens my suspicion that the very first shot was fired just as the limo turned right in front of the TSBD.
-
4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
And Truly I say unto you, oh Paul, that Roy Truly was being untrue right there in the article! Not under oath, he was trying to give additional time for “Lee Harvey Oswald” to climb down from the sixth floor to the second floor by stalling Baker and himself outside the building. Shelley and Lovelady both did exactly the same thing, but only as their stories changed. These stories ALL evolved over time.
Read Baker’s testimony. He says he ran right into the building. Read Truly’s testimony. He said, “I saw an officer break thru the crowd and go into our building. I realized he did not know any thing about the build[ing], so I ran in with him.”
In his affidavit, Baker said it took him 15 seconds to reach “the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building” from the time of the simulated shot in his re-enactment for the WC. During that 15 seconds, he drove his bike to the curb near the front entrance, parked it, dismounted, and ran up to the building and ran inside. How much of that 15 seconds was spent chatting with Brennan, identifying the Secret Service Agent parked on Elm, and leading Brennan to him? The Brennan argument is absurd.
Brennan said a cop, some unnamed, unidentified cop, talked with him and led him to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, who had parked his car by the TSBD. Do you seriously want us to believe Roy Truly, a leading suspect in this case, and his unsupported, unsworn statement to a newspaper? It is nothing but a stall, an obvious attempt to give the accused assassin more time to climb down those stairs. A Baker and Brennan and Sorrels encounter outside the TSBD never happened. How could it have?
Jim,
Fair enough - Truly may have lied to the reporter.
Alternatively, once he was away from the spotlight of the Warren Commission and the need to "coordinate" stories, he may have let the truth slip out.
I think we both agree that Truly was a very slippery and suspicious character, and trying to parse out the truth from his conflicting statements is a difficult business. I think we both agree that because Truly set the dogs loose on "Oswald" so soon after (allegedly) vouching for him, Truly was a witting part of the conspiracy to frame "Oswald."
Jim, I must also confess that part of my suspicion about the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter comes from a careful reading of Jesse Curry's book "Jesse Curry's JFK Assassination File" as he recounted the episode. Not once did Curry mention Baker by name! In a book filled with praise for various minor members of the Dallas Police Force, Jesse Curry downplayed, minimized and virtually ignored the remarkably brave and correct actions of the first DPD officer in the TSBD! (Allegedly.)
Why did Jesse Curry ignore Marrion Baker?
Why did Jesse Curry minimize the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter?
I am not making this up - it reads as if Jesse Curry himself gave no credence to the event, and wanted to distance himself from it as much as possible. That is what first raised my hackles - something was wrong with the "official" narrative, and Jesse Curry knew it.
I suppose I should do a separate thread on this. I may be one of the few here who not only owns a copy of Curry's book, but has actually read it in its entirety.
Jim, I completely respect your opinion on the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, and therefore, the need to have Truly and Baker running up those stairs out front right away. You may be right, but I don't think the evidence is as persuasive as you apparently seem to believe. I believe there is room for doubt about the timing about that run, and perhaps that is where we should leave it for now.
-
On 3/25/2019 at 1:02 PM, John Butler said:
Paul J.,
I didn't confuse Marys. Mary Hollies was who I was talking about. I have problems with her statements. She is a quad-x or more familiarly a XXXX. Either she lied during the era of the assassination or 48 years later. My problem is I keep wanting to look further at some of the things she said and how much she was influenced by the 6th floor people. As and example, she puts Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor just moments before the assassination. She has him coming down from the 6th floor by elevator and locking the elevator in place. The question is if the 6th floor Museum had that great of an influence on what she said in 2011 then why would they allow her to burn the WC's star witness Bonnie Ray Williams. I have problems with other things she said and why she may have said what she said in 1964. I have a problem with there being no early statements by the Sheriff's Office or the FBI in November of 63. Everybody at the TSBD was covered at the time. They may be out there but, I haven't found any.
I don't want to argue with or try to refute what Jim Hargroves has said. I am, or at least part of me, is in agreement. Jim is a solid Kennedy researcher and a good person who doesn't mind saying what he thinks straight up. What I want to do is suggest some alternatives that people can say yea or nay on their merits.
Paul B,
I think Harvey Oswald was outside the TSBD on Elm St. photographing the motorcade as it went by. He had plenty of time to go back to the TSBD steps and be filmed as Prayer Man. The object he has in his hands in not a coke but, an object about a foot in width. I judge this to be a camera in a two handed camera mount. That is what he went home for instead of curtain rods. The John Martin film shows Prayer Man on Elm St. as the presidential limousine goes by. That is the basis for my contention. I might add most people don't agree and say that can't see Prayer Man there or his camera and it's camera flash.
John,
Maybe I missed it, but where did Mary Hollies claim that "Oswald" had approached her on a bus? What bus, when, and where? I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that "Oswald's" bus encounter with a woman named "Mary" was limited to Mary Bledsoe, but if there is a statement from Mary Hollies somewhere that she, too, met "Oswald" on a bus and they conversed about communism (or whatever), then I'd like to read it.
Can you provide a link to Mary Hollies, "Oswald" and the bus?
-
16 hours ago, Tony Krome said:
Do you believe the shot that caused Kennedy to clutch his throat area was one of entrance?
If so, why do you have the primary patsy behind him?
Good question, Tony. My answer is speculative, but I bet you and I agree on this: the most important consideration for the conspirators was to make sure that the president was dead, and if that meant firing from multiple locations, then so be it. The pre-selected patsy be damned - JFK had to be dead before the limo left Dealey Plaza.
A wounded - but not dead - JFK would have been in charge of all of the federal investigative machinery to catch all of the conspirators, and they would have been caught, tried and convicted. No, the only objective for the conspirators was to kill - not wound, not incapacitate, not scare, not maim, not intimidate - but to kill the president.
Anything less was a total failure on their part. (Was this why there were printed rumors that Curtis LeMay's plane had crashed on 11/22/63? Part of a pre-planned cover had the assassination failed?)
So yes, I think it is probable that JFK's throat wound was one of entrance, but I am not 100% certain. Of course, thanks to the colossal failure to dissect the throat wound at the autopsy, none of us can be sure what that wound was.
For what it's worth, it should be obvious that had the first shot hit and killed JFK just as the limo turned onto Elm, then none of the subsequent shots would have been necessary, including those from the front.
The Tina Towner film has unmistakable evidence that the president involuntarily ducked to his left, winced and pulled his right hand back sharply just as the limo was completing its turn onto Elm. That is precisely the time that multiple witnesses claimed that a shot missed the limo, and some even claimed to have seen the missed shot strike the pavement at that moment. (I think it is likely that shot came from the Dal-Tex, quite possibly from the third floor open window, partially obscured by the fire escape. But I am not certain.)
That spot, right in front of the TSBD, was the ideal location for a 6th floor patsy/sniper.
So, yes, the conspirators wanted to frame "Oswald" for the crime.
But the most important objective, the only one that really mattered to them, the only one that allowed for their very survival, was to make sure JFK was dead on the spot.
-
14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
No, no, no! Truly, like Shelley and Lovelady, realized that the observations of Vickie Adams and probably Sandra Styles were real problems, not only for the Warren Commission and the Official Story®, but for them personally! You can see how the statements of all three men changed over time, gradually moving all of them into the TSBD later and later. That’s what they needed to do to hide their probable involvement in all of this.
Where in Baker’s testimony does he say he spoke to anyone before Truly? Where in Truly’s testimony does he say he had a conversation outside the Book Depository with Brennan. Truly, Shelley, and Lovelady were all adding more and more time to their entry into the book depository. Why? So they can’t have been seen by Vickie Adams and probably Sandra Styles.
For that matter, where on earth is there any evidence that Buell Frazier was framed for the assassination. Was he in New Orleans posing as a commie? Did he go to the Sports Drome rifle range. This evidence was not created after the assassination. Do you think otherwise?
Sorry for this hurried response. I’ll have more time tomorrow morning.
Jim,
As I have pointed out repeatedly in the last 48 hours, Roy Truly himself told the Odessa American Newspaper in April, 1964 that he, Marrion Baker and Charles Brennan all had a conversation outside the TSBD before entering the TSBD.
Truly was quoted as saying so right there in the article!
Brennan said in his own testimony that he had a conversation with an unnamed Dallas Police Officer, one who was standing precisely where Truly said - again, in the newspaper - that the conversation was between himself, Baker and Brennan!
I believe it is reasonable to conclude - Brennan so testified under oath - that there was a conversation between Brennan and a policeman outside the TSBD, and further - just as Truly admitted in print - that conversation was between Baker, Truly and Brennan. And, as I pointed out earlier, Truly testified under oath that there was a policeman right where Brennan said there was a policeman, right where Truly admitted in print that there was a policeman named Baker, and to where Baker appears to be running in the Couch film. (As others have noted for some time, Baker does not make a direct beeline for the steps, but rather is running past the steps in the final frames just before we lose sight of him. Note that I did not rely on the film evidence for Baker's pause (slim, but real) - instead, I relied on what Truly himself said!)
Now about my contention that the frame-up was after the fact:
Jim, I think you misread what I wrote: I was making a very specific point about the rifle evidence - the link between "Oswald" and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle later alleged to be his was created after the fact!
Of that, there can be no doubt!
The order form from Klein's was created after the fact!
The money order was created after the fact!
That rifle was never shipped to "Oswald's" post office box, neither he nor anyone else picked it up, and there is no evidence from before the assassination to show that "Oswald"s box had anything to do with it at all! - all that was created after the fact!
The bag in which the rifle was allegedly transported into the TSBD did not exist before 12:30 on 11/22/63, and it sure as hell was not created by "Oswald" - it was created after the fact!
The infamous palm print did not exist on 11/22/63 (who said so? the FBI, that's who!) - created after the fact!
The backyard photos linking "Oswald" to the Mannlicher-Carcano did not exist on the afternoon of 11/22/63 - created after the fact!
All of the rifle evidence that was later used to link "Oswald" to the Mannlicher-Carcano was created after the fact!
-
Bart,
In a nutshell, can you give me the abridged version of why Gary believes that all of John Connally's wounds occurred after the head shot?
Of course, that is not what Connally himself believed and insisted to his dying day, so upon what does Gary base his assertion?
-
4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Maybe, but it sure seems like a lot of work went into framing just “Oswald.” All those appearances at the Sport Drome rifle range, sending a “Lee Harvey Oswald” to visit Robert McKeown to buy rifles to tie to Castro, the Statler-Hilton, Downtown Lincoln Mercury, that brown paper bag mailed to “Lee Oswald” at 601 West Nassau, and on and on. Most of that works best setting up LHO as the shooter. Why ruin all that careful setup by risking the patsy being seen outdoors? And since Fritz allegedly wrote that Harvey Oswald indicated he was outside during the very first interrogation, I’ve got to wonder if he hadn’t thought things out completely at that point and was improvising, but it is a good argument.
On another issue, can you point to the post(s) that make you think Baker hesitated before entering the TSBD?
Jim,
We agree that the primary patsy was "Oswald" and we agree that the conspirators framed him for the shooting and we agree that the police and the FBI were only to willing to along with the frame. But I think the primary concern for the conspirators was to get the sixth floor team out of the TSBD safely. The frame was imperfect - you and I agree that the Mannlicher-Carcano could not be traced in any legitimate way to "Oswald" and all of the evidence that it belonged to him was falsified. Furthermore, we agree that the rifle evidence - the money order, the order form to Klein's, the delivery to the post office box, the bag, etc. - was falsified after the assassination - and that is a key point!
That tells us that the frame up could have encompassed any number of "suspects" after the assassination. They wanted "Oswald" to be the fall guy, but they would have taken anybody as long as the team from the TSBD made it out safely. (Personally, I think Buell Frazier was damn lucky to have been released from the custody of the DPD late that night.)
As far as the Baker/Truly/Brennan encounter outside the TSBD, but before Baker and Truly enter, see my posts on Bart Kamp's thread "Anatomy of a Second Floor Encounter" pages 17 and 18.
Jim, the gist of it is that Roy Truly himself in April of 1964 told a reporter for the Odessa American newspaper that Truly and Baker talked to Brennan for a bit before entering the TSBD. When we add in Brennan's WC testimony, it is clear that Baker did not immediately run up the steps to the TSBD. In Brennan's own words, Baker was "standing still." Further, I argued that there are clear hints in Roy Truly's WC testimony about that very encounter.
-
All well and good guys, except that we have it from Roy Truly himself that Brennan talked to Marrion Baker and Truly together outside the TSBD, before starting their "dash" up the stairs!
Bart pointed that out in his thread that in the April, 1964 Odessa American, a reporter named Roy Bode got a direct quote from Truly himself:
Truly said that he and Baker were approached by Brennan who "yelled" at them that the shooter was in the TSBD. Further, Brennan gave them a clothing description.
That is what Roy Truly himself said in April of 1964 to Roy Bode, who then reported it in the Odessa American newspaper!
I don't see what else there is to say, except that Roy Truly obviously didn't realize in April of 1964 just how tight the timing to frame "Oswald" really was, otherwise he would not have given the interview!
Baker + Truly + Brennan outside the TSBD means that the Baker/Truly dash up the stairs did NOT happen immediately!
I can't get the image of the newspaper interview to load, but look at Bart's Prayerman presentation, page 34.
-
22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Paul,
Hopefully not starting a lengthy debate on the bus and taxi ride, but if Harvey Oswald got on WcWatters’ bus, it was surely because he was instructed to do so. The evidence may not be as good as that for the cab ride, but there is that transfer produced remarkably quickly, Oswald does say he rode the bus in Fritz’s notes, and how do we otherwise explain the fact that U.S. Army employee Stuart Reed managed, on a single roll of film, to take pictures of the Book Depository, Bus 1213, and the Texas Theater just as Oswald is being dragged out? Sure sounds like a planned operation to me, and if you believe that both the white-shirted and brown-shirted Oswalds were in the TSBD at the time of the hit, both had to leave in some way.
Regarding Baker and Truly’s 2nd-or-3rd-or-4th floor encounter with Oswald or someone else, wouldn’t any consideration of a 4th floor encounter (and possibly a 3rd floor encounter) have to consider the fact that Dorothy Garner was right next to the fourth floor staircase and, in fact, watched as Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles ran down the stairs? She supposedly saw Baker and Truly run by her on the way up the stairway, yet she apparently didn’t notice the challenge on her floor or the one immediately below it? Seems unlikley.
Harvey Oswald was surely ordered to stay inside during Kennedy’s drive-by. If we believe he was the designated patsy, how could he possibly be allowed outdoors where he could be witnessed, photographed and instantly exonerated? Shelley is the most likely candidate to give the order, especially so if he was in that photo taken during FPCC charade in New Orleans.
Jim,
I think you may have misread my skepticism about the McWatters' bus ride: I believe you and I agree that "Oswald" was on the bus, albeit mighty briefly. No, my skepticism was about the presence of Mary Bledsoe on that same bus during the ride with "Oswald". I completely agree that the Stuart Reed photos of the McWatters bus stuck in traffic on Elm, east of the TSBD, are a part of conspiratorial photo montage, designed to illustrate the entire "official" story. The only way for Reed to have taken those photos was as part of an assignment, one about which he may (or may not) have been fully cognizant. The fact that he seemingly fled out of the country almost immediately afterward is, I believe, a clue that he was terrified that he had been caught up in something very evil.
Further, I believe that Roy Milton Jones' statement about the search of that bus was proof of a quiet plan to kill the patsy before anyone was the wiser - if "Oswald" was dead on the McWatters' bus within a few minutes of the assassination, I bet the conspiracy would have been successfully covered up.
As to Dorothy Garner,, thanks to the Warren Commission's failure to call her as a witness, we don't know how long it was before she actually saw Truly and the policeman come up the stairs. We don't know exactly what she did or did not witness on any floor. We don't know what she had to say. All we know is that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles had descended the stairs sometime before Truly and (Baker) came up. As I noted an hour ago on a different post, there is a powerful reason to believe that Marrion Baker did not immediately rush into the TSBD. That, in fact, he was "standing still" outside the TSBD for some unspecified period of time before entering. But that is a separate post.
The William Whalley cab ride is a curiosity about which I do not have a firm opinion for now, although I am inclined to believe it.
About "Oswald's" presence on the steps, I agree that it was better for the conspirators to keep him out of sight in order better to frame him for the shooting. But I don't think it was absolutely essential to them - he could always be charged as an accessory, an accomplice, part of a larger plot if they could not pin the actual shooting on him. As we know, the Dallas Police did come mighty close to charging Buell Frazier, and I bet they had some other "suspects" lined up, just in case. In any event, "Oswald's" presence at the top of the steps was probably the result of a spontaneous decision on his part - he said so in his first interrogation: "he wanted to see what all the excitement was about" . . .
-
4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:
Paul, pages 29-30 of my paper go into that matter. It looks more than likely that Baker went to the corner of the building or even a little further to see if there was a shooter in Dal-Tex or that someone would come down the fire escape on the east side of the TSBD. Baker did not go into the building as claimed.
Furthermore continue reading up page 44, which will go into your other questions.
Best
BK
Bart,
I have to tell you, your find of the Truly quote/explanation in the Odessa American newspaper from April of 1964 is remarkable. In it, Truly verified what Charles Brennan implied to the Warren Commission: that Brennan ran across Elm to the front of the TSBD and spoke to Marrion Baker - outside the TSBD, before Baker made his "run"!
Brennan only approached his unnamed DPD cop after realizing that the police search was concentrating on the rail yards, west of the TSBD. This, of course took time, and Brennan wanted to alert the authorities to the presence of the gunman on the sixth floor.
In his words:
Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?
Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting.
And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. "From the April, 1964 Odessa American interview with Roy Truly, here is his version of the Truly/Baker encounter with Brennan:
"The man (Brennan) was standing on the wall of a monument near Elm Street. He looked toward the building and saw the killer aiming the rifle. The shots were fired and he ran across the street where the policeman and I were standing" Truly said. "He yelled to us that the man was on the fourth floor and told us what kind of clothes he was wearing. I understand he later identified Oswald as the killer at police headquarters."
Bart, this encounter between Truly, Baker and Brennan destroys the Warren Commission version of events. Yet it is confirmed by Truly himself!
Baker did not immediately run into the TSBD! He was "standing still" outside!
I believe in Truly's testimony there is even a hint of that encounter:
"Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering . . . ""Everybody was screaming and hollering" was similar to what Truly told the newspaper in April about how Brennan "yelled" at Baker and Truly.
Further, note how Truly went out of his way in his Warren Commission testimony to make sure everyone knew that he, Roy Truly, could not identify the unnamed Dallas cop who was "standing along in this area about 7, 8 or 10 feet from me."
Roy sure wanted us to know, though that "I wouldn't know him . . . it wasn't a motorcycle cop".
Of course not, Roy. We all believe you and everything you say . . .
Bart, am I correct that in Truly's Warren Commission testimony there are clear hints as to the truth about Baker's entry into the TSBD?
-
On 7/31/2016 at 2:27 AM, Bart Kamp said:
Last April I spoke about the second floor lunch room encounter as part of my Prayer Man presentation at the 14th DPUK seminar in Canterbury. Afterwards I wasn't happy with that segment to which Barry Keane suggested I'd write it up, which I did not realising the task that lay ahead.
At the link below I tried to cram every bit of info in there that is available on this alleged encounter, and that has had a negative effect on the software that published it as I managed to crash it and, at this time, cannot edit it at all any more.Once that is solved I will make a couple of minor edits.
There will be an interactive presentation to follow,
http://www.prayer-man.com/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunch-room-encounter/
Bart,
Can you clear something up for me? I just read all of your post, and I appreciate all of the hard work you put into this.
So, did Marrion Baker actually run up into the TSBD as implied (but not actually seen) in the Weigman and Couch films, or not? You spent some time on the topic and raised some excellent reasons to wonder, but I don't see a definitive statement one way or the other.
If he did not, then where the heck did he go?
Or, did he actually enter quite a bit later (5 - 10 minutes later, maybe?)
I mean, surely the whole "we searched the roof of the TSBD" story is based on a real search, right? The timing may be off, from the perspective of the WC narrative, though. And that, of course, screws up their attempt to pin it on "Oswald" - if Baker and Truly did NOT confront "Oswald" in the 2nd floor lunchroom shortly after the shots, then "Oswald's" alibi - he was on the first floor at the time of the shots - would remain intact. Therefore, from the WC view, it was crucial to get Baker and Truly up to that 2nd floor lunchroom ASAP. Which meant Baker had to enter immediately, from the WC no-conspiracy point of view.
So, did Marrion Baker actually run up the steps of the TSBD and race up the stairs with Truly within 30 seconds after the shots, or not? Why does the motorcycle cop in the Weigman and Couch films appear to be passing the front steps, or at least, not taking a direct route to them?
-
10 hours ago, John Butler said:
Jim,
Your opinion is in tune with others that I have read several years ago when I first ran across this. Her story is unbelievable to most including myself. Rationally one has to take a step back from it considering the source.
However, the irrational part of myself seems to want to hang on to this story because it has elements that might connect to the wider scheme of things. The story of Oswald (Which one?)approaching Mary Hollies on the bus might have to do with what was really happening at the TSBD in that outpost of CIA gun-running, dope trafficking, and school book delivering folks. Some of the statements she said he said about assassinating Kennedy could be to work his way into some kind of scheme there. That's a bit different than the usual take of putting words in Oswald's mouth to connect him to the actual shooting. What Mary Hollies has said can be read several different ways.
Odd connections pop up in this story. Oswald caught VD, gonorrhea, in Japanese whorehouses which was treated and marked as "in the line of duty". Was he being trained as a seducer of women? Silly ideas like that were around at that time. Being able to seduce women a la James Bond would be a handy skill for an agent trying to work his way into an organization. Was he attempting to get close to Mary Hollies for the purpose of investigating the book companies role in the assassination. His statements about his willingness to shoot Kennedy may have been a ruse. This is just idle speculation. But, there has to be some reason Oswald was at the TSBD?
Why was Oswald sent into the TSBD? What was the rational he was given to get him inside as a government agent. Was he trying to work his way into whatever was going on through people like Mary Hollies or others in other book companies?
John,
I think you are confusing Mary Hollies (TSBD employee who supposedly conversed with "Oswald" as he took an elevator UP to the sixth floor!) with Mary Bledsoe ("Oswald's" landlady - maybe - for one week in early October, prior to his move to the room at 1026 N. Beckley. She is the one who claimed that the "Oswald" she recognized on McWatters' bus was our man, LHO. Actually, there is good reason to doubt that she was even on that bus until AFTER the man later alleged to be "Oswald" departed that bus. There is even reason to wonder whether "Oswald" ever rented a room from her at all. But that is a separate thread . . . )
As to what "assignment" "Oswald" had been told was his task at the TSBD, we can only speculate. Unknown to him, his real job at the TSBD was to be in position to be "patsified" on 11/22/63. Peter Dale Scott has speculated that "Oswald" may have been told that his job at the TSBD was part of an investigation of Joe Molina, a man with the audacity to belong to a (perceived) left - leaning veterans group. Molina was indeed fired a month after the assassination for generally being a lefty.
-
21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Let’s let Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman go for a minute and just consider Mary Hollies. As you probably know, there’s lots of so-called evidence from 1964 that she didn’t see Oswald, any Oswald, around the time of the assassination. Easiest to ignore are the FBI versions, so….
In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64 she allegedly said, “At the time the shots were fired, I did not see Oswald or know of his whereabouts. During the morning of the assassination of President Kennedy, I saw no individuals in the Texas School Book Depository who attracted my attention in any way.”
That does sound uncommonly definitive, does it not? <LOL>
In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64, Betty Alice Foster allegedly said, “I was with Mary Hollies, 242 W. Davis, Dallas, Texas. I heard something that sounded like fireworks after the President's car turned down Elm Street but I wasn't sure what it was. I did not know what had
happened. I did not see lee Harvey Oswald at that time or anyone who looked like him.”Even more definitive, eh?
Harder to dismiss is the W. E. Potts (DPD Homicide and Robbery Detective) report of 2/18/64 in which he described his interview with Miss Hollies. Potts doesn’t indicate Hollies said anything about seeing Oswald near the time of the assassination. She does say that she watched the parade with Alice Foster by looking out a fourth floor window. Potts’s report ends with these words: “Miss Hollies states she did not know Oswald, but had seen him in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository on numerous occasions. She does not know Jack Ruby.”
Even harder to dismiss, assuming it is true, is that neither Hollies nor Alice Foster said anything for nearly 50 years about seeing “Lee Harvey Oswald” taking a freight elevator up to the so-called sniper’s nest shortly before JFK was assassinated. It seems to me the FBI and the DPD and the WC would have LOVED to hear that!
But we hear it 48 years after the fact from, of all sources, the Sixth Floor Museum? If I were asked to name any organization on earth less trustworthy than the FBI regarding the Kennedy Assassination, the Sixth Floor Museum might be the only outfit I could conjure.
It all sounds completely unbelievable to me.
Jim,
I agree completely - we are to believe that 48 years after the fact a witness (known to and interviewed by the FBI!) suddenly emerges who can place “Oswald” on the sixth floor and who locks up the freight elevator?
Not a chance in hell!
Mary Hollies’s 2011 alleged statements about her “Oswald “ encounter are a fabrication by a xxxx or XXXXX and should be disregarded by anyone with any sense of what constitutes reliable and valid evidence.
On a different note, Jim, I realize that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter is a dicey topic, but I am currently persuaded that it did not happen. For reasons too lengthy to go into here, I believe it was concocted after the fact by authorities desperate to move “Oswald” as far as possible from where he actually was during the shooting: on the first floor, just about to go through the doors of the vestibule, on his way to the top of the steps outside the TSBD, where he would be seen and filmed by Darnell some 30 seconds after the shots.
Therefore Baker’s first day affidavit suspect description was not of Harvey, but that of a conspirator, one for whom Truly vouched.
After all Jim, if the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between “Oswald”, Truly, and Baker really happened within 75 - 90 seconds of the shots, then how could Truly even possibly point his finger of suspicion at “Oswald” around 1:00 pm if he had just cleared him less than 30 minutes earlier?
-
On 3/20/2019 at 8:38 AM, Paul Bacon said:
White shirted Oswald was a very busy man the day of the assassination! I have no problem believing his movements that day were all part of the plan.
What tipped me off regarding the idea that the men on the 6th floor were not worried about being noticed, was the description of some of the witnesses regarding the movement on the 6th floor --"fiddling with the rifle scope", "sitting astride the window ledge", "seemingly relaxed" (to the extent that the witness assumed he was part of security). Either these men were security, or they weren't worried about being noticed! And we know they were not security.
I had a thought the other day, Jim, regarding the use of the passenger elevator for escape. The two men wouldn't, necessarily, have had to use the elevator to access the 6th floor. They could have been pre-planted on the 7th floor or on the rooftop (maybe in that little shack on the roof) very early in the work day (or even the night before). They then made use of the passenger elevator for escape.
Still though, I'm wondering if Baker's earliest testimony about accosting a man on the 3rd or 4th floor, indicates that it was "Lee" alone who used the passenger elevator for escape. It strikes me that it would have been more imperative to get "Lee" out of the building un-noticed, although it would have been important to get both men off the 6th floor immediately.
In the end, though, it's all speculation. The testimony of the movements of people in the building after the final head shot are, to use Bart Kamps expression, a cluster fuggazie.
That it was the man in the white shirt - Lee - escaping via the passenger elevator is a distinct possibility. However, thanks to the incuriousity of the WC, we do’t have a description of “this man” who Sawyer “bumped into” as Sawyer was rushing to take the passenger elevator up around 12:34 - 12:37. You are right that it would have been crucial to get Lee out of sight ASAP after the shots.
I agree that Baker’s affidavit rules out our “Oswald” as a suspect, especially since he was sitting and complaining in plain view of Baker as Baker wrote, yet he failed to identify “Oswald” as the suspect he’d previously encountered!
The question remains though: just who did Baker encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor? Was it Jack Dougherty? If not, then we know that Roy Truly lied and vouched for someone who was not a TSBD employee, thus proving Truly was a witting part of the conspiracy.
-
On 2/13/2019 at 6:10 PM, Bart Kamp said:Thanks to Malcolm Blunt
Bart, see my comments previously up above.
-
Bart,
Who wrote these notes, and when? They seem to be a mishmash of jottings from phone calls or conversations with someone who was telling the writer to whom to speak.
I am especially intrigued by the writer's notation on page 4 about NSA Deputy Director Louis Tordella (1958 - 1974) " knows where the bodies are buried" . . .
According to Stephan Budiansky in his book "Code Warriors", Tordella had sixteen boxes of documents in his office safe, which, when discovered after his death in 1996, " turned out to be a compendium of every single one of NSA's most highly classified, compartmented programs of the post-World War II era."
If the writer of these notes was with the ARRB, then it is "unfortunate" that NSA Deputy Director Tordella died on January 10, 1996 (no autopsy). The ARRB wanted whatever he had, and the Navy provided Tordella's notes on the Warren Commission, but I doubt that was really what the ARRB was after. Too bad they could not depose the man himself.
The writer of these notes had some idea of his importance.
"The Review Board requested that NSA locate the original files of top NSA officials during the period of the Warren Commission (NSA Director Lt. Gen. Gordon Blake and NSA Deputy Director Dr. Louis Tordella). NSA located materials on the Warren Commission from files of Deputy Director Tordella."
Is James McCord Dead?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Jim,
This is where having a statewide library card comes in handy. In Michigan, no less than eight public university libraries have "A Piece of Tape" (McCord's book) to lend to anyone with a MelCat card.