11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Rostow first surfaced the idea of a blue ribbon panel on the 24th.  But LBJ was resistant to it, both that day and early the next morning.

It was the  about 10:40 AM on the 25th with Alsop, in a real stunner of a conversation,  that the resistance began to be chipped away.

And yes Ron, this does give at least a suggestion that the cover up was planned with the conspiracy.  This is why I really wanted to know who was in the room with Rostow.

Also, did LBJ know the whole MC thing was a mirage?

 

Jim,

I think we can conclude from LBJ's 11/29/63 conversation with Richard Russell that LBJ knew perfectly well that the "Russians did it" angle was a myth. Yet he used that to force Earl Warren to serve on the commission. To me, though, that is not proof that LBJ was behind the plot to assassinate JFK, merely that by the 29th of November he had received his marching orders from the Rostow/Alsop/Acheson voices and had bowed to the pressure to create the Warren Commission. Did LBJ have an inkling who was actually responsible for the assassination? I bet he did, and I bet he was terrified of them.

https://www.maryferrell.org/audio/LbjLib/Audio_lbjlib_K6311.06_A_Russell_29-Nov-1963_855P.mp3

Pat,

You've done some impressive work on this.

A few questions:

Exactly where was Jack Dougherty at 12:30? We know the WC needed him to make his descent in the 5th floor west freight elevator as Baker and Truly ascend, but if that wasn't him, then precisely where was he at 12:30?

Exactly where was Eddie Piper at 12:30?

We've always assumed he was at the back of the TSBD, near the coffee, right? Is that true, and how do we know that for certain?

If Piper was indeed where he allegedly was, near the freight elevators, and if, in fact, Dougherty DID NOT take the freight elevator down until ten minutes later, then Piper must have seen the exit of a conspirator (or more) from the west freight elevator, right? Why didn't Piper say anything, if he was there? For that matter, why wasn't he "silenced" if he was an eyeball witness to the getaway of the conspirator(s)?

Was Eddie Piper in on the plot? Could he have been one to throw a switch on the fuse box? If not, why not?

If the freight elevator WAS used as the escape route for the 6th floor conspirators, and if Jack Dougherty was not up on the 5th floor as he later claimed, then who the hell did Baker see (and suspect) "on the level of the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs"? Did the 6th floor conspirators break up into two groups, one leaving via the elevator, and one making his way downstairs on foot? If so, then why didn't Dorothy Garner see that person as they descended the stairs?

I appreciate any insight you might have on this, Pat. 

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul:

I have always wondered about who that other party was that Rostow was referring to.  Acheson?  Allen Dulles?  Alsop?

Because its Alsop and the call to LBJ that then clinches the WC.

I guess you would have to figure out where everyone was that day to decipher it.

The HSCA should have done this but they didn't.  It gets really frustrating when you see how many investigatory leads were passed up not just by the WC, but by the HSCA also.  Because if the other party was Alsop or Dulles, then a whole new horizon of questioning opens up.

Jim,

As you know, Joseph Alsop in his 11/25/63 call to LBJ makes no fewer than four references to Dean Acheson. Acheson, of course, had resigned from JFK's EXCOMM during the Cuban Missile Crisis because he considered the blockade of Cuba to be too weak. So, Acheson is an obvious starting point. Interestingly, Acheson's daughter, Mary, was married to Wiliiam Bundy, long-time CIA analyst and Ass't. Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs under LBJ. William Bundy was McGeorge Bundy's brother, who, of course, was JFK's National Security Advisor, and seemingly JFK's foil on Vietnam policy. 

McGeorge Bundy has long been regarded with suspicion by JFK researchers, and perhaps rightly so. 

However, Alsop's invocation of Acheson's name did not seem to produce an immediate acquiescence from LBJ. Johnson didn't change his mind about a commission until a bit later. So, perhaps there was a follow-up call, one about which we don't yet have the details? 

Rostow and Alsop lived in rarified air, but the nexus of the sponsors was not far removed from these men. Contrary to James Douglas's assertion that the sponsors of the assassination are no longer knowable, it may yet be possible to discern more. 

Google Maps is surprisingly helpful to get the perspective here:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dealey+Plaza/@32.779193,-96.8078719,18a,35y,343.72h,77.6t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e9915d508f639:0xcfa47bf25b709fe0!8m2!3d32.7788184!4d-96.8082993

On 3/16/2019 at 12:15 PM, John Butler said:

I think so to.  Please take a look at this next post and assess what its weaknesses are.

Jack Daugherty and the elevators

Jack Daugherty seems to move up and down the elevators at will.  He does so in time periods where the power in the building is supposedly off.  Geneva Hines said the light went off just as the motorcade was approaching. 

Jack says he went up to the 6^th floor at 12:45 (obviously a mistake intentional or otherwise).  He said he didn’t see anyone there.  As soon as he got there he went back down to the 5^th floor and there he heard shots.  How did he move between floors if not by elevator?  The power to the elevator could have still on when he went to the 6^th floor.  But, as Geneva Hines reports the power was off while Jack was on the 5^th floor hearing shots.  He doesn’t state how he moved between floors.

Jack then decides to go to the 1^st floor.  He doesn’t mention how he does that.  The power is off unless someone is helping Jack use the elevator to reach the 1^st floor.  He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman.  Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker.  But, Baker’s description of the 3^rd or 4^th floor male encounter rules him out.  So, he either takes the elevator or uses the stairway before Truly and Baker move up the steps.  This must be after Adams and Styles go down the stairs.  The problem with that is Dorothy Garden didn’t hear anyone on the steps until Truly and Baker go up.

Is this why folks think Daugherty took an elevator even though the power was off according to Geneva Hines?

After talking to Eddie Piper he said he went back up to the 6^th floor by elevator.  While he was there he didn’t see anybody.  On two trips to the upper floors he doesn’t see or hear anyone on the steps, or 5^th or 6^th floor.  This second trip to the 6^th floor is when the power is said to be off.  If this happened during the Truly / Baker walk up the steps then Baker and Truly would have heard someone using the elevator.  They don’t mention anything like that.

Jack Daugherty is a suspicious character who is judged by many to be a moron based on some of this statements at a WC hearing:

Mr. Dougherty. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say — just work

in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in

October — October 24, 1942.

 

Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

 

Mr. Ball. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War,

was it?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir.

The war didn’t end until the following year in about April, 1945 in Europe and later for the Japanese.

And, here is a fine example of southern humor.

Mr. Ball. Did you have any active service?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, no — I volunteered for active service, but they said

you couldn’t very well volunteer — you have to be drafted, so they said, they told

me at the time.

 

Mr. Ball. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Oh, yes.

 

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana

up there — Seymour, Ind.

And,

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of the Army?

 

Mr. Dougherty. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of

the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my applica-

tion in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my

application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency,

and I been working there ever since.

 

Mr. Ball. And that was when — in 1940, was it, you started to work at the

Texas School Book Depository?

 

Mr. Dougherty. September 17, 1940.

 

Mr. Ball. 1940 what?

You can see why some people though Jack was a light weight in his thinking.  It is the perfect cover for someone involved the assassination. 

If you look at Jack’s handwritten statement to the Sheriff’s Office of 11-22-63 you will see Jack is not what the educational folk would classify as a moron or what is known today as a Special Ed. classification.  Or even, in other terms appropriate for the times a Dull Normal as Forrest Gump was portrayed.

Definely a suspicious character.

John Butler,

About Jack Dougherty's descent from the 5th floor after hearing shots you wrote  "He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman.  Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker.  But, Baker’s description of the 3^rd or 4^th floor male encounter rules him out." 

Does it?

How certain are we that Baker did not encounter Dougherty? After all, Roy Truly vouched for this suspect, whether we think it was "Oswald" or Dougherty. Baker's suspect encounter with a white male happened on the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the stairs. Exactly what biographical data do we have on Dougherty that would rule him out for certain as Baker's suspect? 

Now if, in fact, Baker did NOT encounter Dougherty (and we know it could not have been "Oswald") then the brown-coated man seen by Carr and Worrell is very much in play, in my mind. That man, whoever he was, was NOT a TSBD employee, so Truly lied to Baker (thus proving that Truly was in on the plot) to enable this man to make the getaway.

However, if as I believe, John Armstrong's passenger elevator escape theory is viable, then the question remains: why didn't both of the sixth floor conspirators use it to escape? Why did one of them apparently descend to the 3rd or 4th floor where he was seen by Truly and Baker? 

To me, that is the crux of the matter - if the elevator escape theory is correct, then why didn't both men use it? And, thanks to Herbert Sawyer's testimony, we know that at least one unknown man did, in fact, use the elevator just as the police were rushing in ("We got onto the elevator. We bumped into this man.")

So why did the other guy take the stairs?

Or, in fact, did both 6th floor men really take the passenger elevator, and did Truly and Baker encounter Dougherty near the 3rd or 4th floor stairwell? And did this encounter with an actual TSBD employee later morph into the (false) 2nd floor lunchroom encounter?

Jim,

I did not know of Donald Gibson's article in Probe until you alluded to it. I just read it. He was much more articulate than I was earlier, and he had information that I did not know. I urge everyone to read Donald Gibson's article on the creation of the Warren Commission, originally published in Jim's Probe magazine.

Here it is:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-creation-of-the-warren-commission

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I did not know about Weisberg and Eugene Rostow.  I did know that Don Gibson pointed out his phone call to the White House.  Which I alway thought was so interesting.

Since that was what got the ball rolling on forming the Commission.

Nice one about Rostow's "surviving a nuclear war".  Comparing Japan to atomic war in 1981! Talk about C. Wright Mills' "crackpot realism". These are the kinds of guys who watched Dr. Strangelove and did not even giggle, let alone laugh.

When I listen again to Eugene Rostow's Sunday 11/24/63 phone call to Bill Moyers at the White House, Rostow implied that he'd already talked to Katzenbach, but "that the poor fellow sounded so groggy, I just thought I'd pass this thought along to you": form a bi-partisan, above-politics presidential commission of "very distinguished citizens"  because "world opinion and American opinion are just so shaken by the behavior of the Dallas Police that they are not believing anything." Then Rostow said that he's "got a party here, that's pursuing this, that people need to come together at this time."

Immediately after "Oswald" was shot, Rostow called Moyers on that Sunday, before any real investigation had been done, before the Z-film had been edited, before the DPD and FBI had "cinched" the case, to say that he, Rostow, was speaking on behalf of some other "party" in urging the creation of the commission.

Remember, "Oswald" was not pronounced dead at Parkland Hospital until 1:07 Central Standard Time. That was 2:07 in Washington, D.C. When Rostow made his first call to Katzenbach (for which no tape exists, apparently), "Oswald's" body was not even cold. This is the tape of the Rostow's follow-up call later on Sunday afternoon to presidential aide Bill Moyers, to make sure the commission idea got through to LBJ!

Why the rush, Eugene?

Getting that commission formed was mighty damn important to Eugene V. Debs Rostow and for that other, unnamed "party"! 

https://www.maryferrell.org/audio/LbjLib/Audio_lbjlib_WCC1A_Moyers-Rostow_24-Nov-1963_2_1.mp3

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul, that order you are talking about was not permanent.

But related to that, currency comptroller James Saxon was appointed by JFK for the express purpose of opening up more state banks with easier credit than the Fed.

Concerning David's point, what these assassinations did was to keep both the Power Elite and the MIC at the top of the pyramid.  And those are the two places where the big money was that time.  Also, the election of Nixon and then the appointment of Ford brought in the Rise of the Vulcans.(See the book of the same title)  By that I mean Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush I and their later followers over at Team B.  (Kirkpatrick, Pipes etc.)  And that was the beginning of the whole Neocon movement which shifted American foreign policy so far to the right that these guys thought that Kissinger was too liberal.  

American foreign policy was then dominated by two main camps, the Neocons (Reagan, Bush I and II) and the Neolibs (Clinton, Obama).  The Kennedys' foreign policy was literally ground into the dust, its something we now talk about online or at seminars up in San Francisco, which David and I go to.  Which means its an artifact in a museum.

So I disagree about the changes brought about by those assassinations not being permanent. The America we live in now is pretty much unrecognizable from the America I grew up in--in every way.

Fair enough, Jim. I never pursued the "Fed did it" angle with any seriousness. 

I do agree that the assassination did keep the Military/Industrial/Intelligence Complex in control, and I am willing to go along with the idea that the "Power Elite" do use the MIIC as the primary vehicle through which they maintain control.  FWIW, Fletcher Prouty cited Robert McNamara's advice to USMC Gen. Victor Krulak's proposed plan to "win" the Vietnam War (McNamara told Krulak to "go see Governor Averill Harriman") as evidence that not only did a "Power Elite" exist, but that they were the true decision makers about such crucial events as the Vietnam War. (Harriman rejected Krulak's plan, not on the grounds that it would not work, but that - according to Prouty and Krulak - it would work, and therefore end the Vietnam War. Which was not what the "Power Elite" wanted, according to Prouty.)

Prouty wrote that Harriman was a uniquely visible member of the "Power Elite", and I tend to agree. 

Ultimately, regardless of whether Prouty was right, I think we can all agree that the planners/coordinators/executors of the assassination had to be assured of success, plus protection from prosecution afterward. That assurance could only come from very powerful people, way above the level of LBJ. 

Also for what it's worth, Harold Weisberg long, long ago pointed the finger of suspicion at Yale Law School Dean Eugene V. Debs Rostow as a conduit/representative/member of the "Power Elite." We all know that the creation of the Warren Commission was not LBJ's idea. Apparently Rostow called Katzenbach on Sunday, 11/24/63, to urge the creation of a presidential commission, a suggestion which Katzenbach then wrote up in a memo to LBJ. Weisberg believed that in this call, Rostow was speaking on behalf of those who planned the cover-up.

Like his brother Walt W. Rostow, Eugene V. Debs Rostow was the insider's insider, one who spoke for and was a charter member of the highest policy-making elites in this country, elites who transcend presidential administrations. Not coincidentally, Rostow was also a hawk on nuclear war, one whose views coincided with Curtis LeMay:

"At his confirmation hearing in 1981, Senator Claiborne Pell asked Rostow if he thought the US could survive a nuclear war. Rostow replied that Japan "not only survived but flourished after the nuclear attack." When questioners pointed out that the Soviet Union would attack with thousands of nuclear warheads rather than two, Rostow replied, "the human race is very resilient. ... Depending upon certain assumptions, some estimates predict that there would be ten million casualties on one side and one hundred million on another. But that is not the whole of the population."^[

David,

Trying to divine the ultimate sponsors of the Kennedy assassination by examining the change in policies after his murder is tricky, but at this point, that's all we can do. So, since you mentioned the Federal Reserve, is there anything to the idea that the 1963 United States Notes (not the 1963 United States Silver Certificates) actually bypassed the Fed?

Is that really what happened, regardless of whether that decision had anything to do with 11/22/63? (I am not aware of any evidence linking the United States Notes to 11/22/63. Is there any?) I read Gary Allen's book decades ago, but I don't remember any discussion of the United States Notes and JFK. But it's been a very long time - is there anything in there about that?

On 3/16/2019 at 2:04 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

The Mexia Daily News from Mexia, Texas · Page 1

November 7, 1957

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11876796/

 

Mexia Man Receives Appointment Earl McKeilh, (center) is pictured with L. Robert Castorr, of Dallas, Southwestern division manager of the National Federation of Independent Business, and Si N. Meadow, district manager of the organization from Austin.

 

“Earl McKeith was coming out of a local bank Tuesday and came face to face with a man who was one of his fellow Army officers in the early thirties. Earl didn't recognize him but L. Robert Castorr, of Dallas, immediately grabbed Earl's arm and said "I know you." Mr. Castorr. who is now a- colonel in the Active Reserve serving as inspector and advisor to the 90th Division in Texas., and Mr. McKeith, a Reserve. Army captain, were first lieutenants when they served with each other in the Second Infantry Division. They last saw each other in 1930. Col. Castorr served with Merrill's Marauders in Burma during World War II.” “Mr. Meadow was accompanied to Mexia by L. Robert Castorr, the Southwestern division manager for the National Federation of Independent Business. Mr. Castorr formerly served in the U. S. Army with Mr. McKeilh.”

 

From David Boylan in the Education Forum May 18, 2006

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/6807-john-singlaub-and-the-chinese-connection/?page=2

“And the Burma connection. I had some info (but lost it ) that Nestor Sanchez was also in Burma. Here's some notes on two others that were in Burma:

Harold Weisberg’s Grand Jury testimony on the History matters website. – Col Castorr. Harold describes Castorr as “political agent who is keeping the Cuban people stirred up.” And “Father McChann tells the Secret Service that Col. Castorr’s actions are consistent with that of an intelligence agent.” Castorr was L. Robert Castorr of Dallas, Texas and Arlington, Virginia (and Maryland)

Harold also noted that “Col. Castorr who was a friend of General Walker told a mutual friend that he was involved in a sideline of running guns to Cuba – a profitable sideline – and this is all part of the Odio story.””

 

Remember the Colonel who was present during Nancy Perrin Rich's testimony to the WC?

I think it was Castorr.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

I agree it was almost certainly Castorr at the three meetings in Dallas with Nancy Perrin Rich, her husband, Jack Ruby, Dave Cherry, a”pugnacious-looking” prize-fighter guy, a Latin or two, and a middle-aged, steel gray haired, mannish woman (“a real old granite face”). Plus maybe “Tony” Genovese, son of mafia godfather Vito Genovese.

Castorr was in charge and did much of the talking.

NPR described the colonel as middle aged, 45 or 50, slightly built and balding. That seems to fit with the image of Castorr from the picture in the paper you attached.

These 1962 meetings are all plausible and have the right cast of characters, but obviously 11/22/63 was not on the agenda in 1962. However, it is reminiscent of the September Labor Day 1963 approach to Robert McKeown in Dallas when three men, including either LHO or his lookalike, asked McKeown to deliver four rifles for $10,000. That’s the same figure cited by the colonel in NPR’s testimony, and I doubt it’s a coincidence, do you?

McKeown, like NPR, ultimately refused the deal because it was fishy - that was way too much money for a seemingly simple job.

That in the fall of 1963 Castorr was linked with a “political Cuban” seeking to arouse anti-Kennedy passions in the Dallas Cuban refugee community was so suspicious and screamed for investigation. Father McChann specifically said so in regards to what happened with Sylvia Odio.

I think the summer 1962 Castorr-led meetings with NPR and company were a blueprint for the fall of 1963, don’t you?

On 3/4/2019 at 5:41 AM, Steve Thomas said:

The two main divisions in the Texas National Guard were the 90th Infantry Division and the 49th Armored Division.

The 90th Infantry had a long and storied career in WWII, taking part in many of the major campaigns.

Colonel L. Robert Castorr:

Would be linked to a gun running scheme to Cuba with Nancy Perrin Rich and Jack Ruby.

The Mexia Daily News from Mexia, Texas · Page 1

November 7, 1957

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11876796/

(L. Robert Castorr) “Mr. Castorr. who is now a- colonel in the Active Reserve serving as inspector and advisor to the 90th Division in Texas...”

 

I don't know who the Inspector/Advisor to the 49th Division was, but the 49th was one of the premier National Guard units in the country. They are called Armored Divisions, but as such, they also handle land-based nuclear missiles. If my memory serves me right, they were the first unit in the country to be given "Honest Johns".

http://www.texasmilitaryforcesmuseum.org/49ad/49division.htm

An Introduction to the history of the 49th (Lone Star) Armored Division (1947 -1963)

— Brian Schenk

“Soon after being designated as a "combat-ready" unit in 1955, the 49th was assigned as one of the six National Guard divisions making up the Ready Reserve Strategic Army Force, a first-priority reserve component. The designation gave the division higher priority for newer equipment and advanced training. “

“Command Post Exercises (CPX) called "Cloverleaf" became a part of the command staff's training beginning in 1957. Conducted by Headquarters, 4th U. S. Army, the Cloverleaf exercises were based at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio, Texas.”

 

Brandy, Our Man in Acapulco: The Life and Times of Colonel Frank M. Brandstetter. A Biography by Rodney P. Carlisle and Dominic J. Monetta. University of North Texas Press, 1999.

https://books.google.com/books?id=QLdqgDsVio4C&pg=PA122&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

p. 121. “While at the Presidio, Brandy had prepared a draft of a Domestic Emergency Plan, which he revised and submitted in 1954 as part of the Cloverleaf I exercise, to G-2 of the Fourth Army Command in Dallas, Colonel M.H. Truly.”

 

Posted by Tosh Plumlee in the Education Forum 11/12/2004

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/1972-felipe-vidal-santiago/?page=4

"MOS: WR Plumlee 1795, 3795 Tank Crew man Tk Comander, Sherman Tank. Cpl. Plumlee Mos 'Unknown; Unknown" Ft Bliss Texas; Texas National Guard; Unknown. OO Records at Office of Adjutant General State of Texas Camp Mabry, Texas. Texas National Guard; Texas Fourth Army Reserve; Certified Copy of Available Document By; XXX referenced doc."

Posted by Rosh Plumlee in the Education Forum 11/12/2004

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/1972-felipe-vidal-santiago/?page=4

Larry: Note In 1952 Captain Seiwell went back into service with the Forth Army Reserve and was based at Dallas Love Field.. The same place as the Texas 49th Armord Div.

I too was in the Texas National Guard 49th Armord Div before I went into the regular Army in 1953 at Ft Bliss Texas... I also went back into the National Guard and then transfered into the 4th Army Reserve in 1954.

Dial Ryder, who did gun work for Lee Harvey Oswald, served in the 49^th Division in “Armored tank training”.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ryder.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in?
Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard. 49th Armored Division which I am still an active member.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive?
Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training.
Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Now?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RYDER. Sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was it at the time you went into active duty?
Mr. RYDER. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood.
Mr. LIEBELER. June what? What was your rank when you went on active duty?
Mr. RYDER. I was just an E-2.

 

What do you think the chances are that Tosh Plumlee and Dial Ryder knew each other?

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

As you may know, the late Harold Weinberg noted that Lucille Connell, friend and confidante of Sylvia Odio, testified that Col. L. Robert Castorr was trying to stir up ant-Kennedy feelings amongst the Dallas Cuban refugee community. 

Her statements dovetail nicely with Fathe Walter McCann’s statement that within that same community in Dallas was a “political Cuban”,  more interested in generating anti-JFK feelings then in helping recent Cuban refugees.

This unnamed, uninvestigated Cuban worked as an orderly at Parkland Hospital, and Weinberg suspected that he may have planted the stretcher bullet.

Weisberg may well have been right, but for our purposes, the main thing is that Col. Castorr was closely involved in creating anti-Kennedy sentiment amount the Dallas Cubans in the fall of 1963.

And that was something about which the Warren Commission desperately wanted to remain ignorant.

Bart,

First of all, you've done a great job demonstrating that the Raleigh call event did not occur. You've persuaded me.

On a slightly different note about the other calls on Saturday:

Why should we assume the 4:00 pm Saturday call was made to Mrs. Paine? It appears that "Oswald" needed to get two numbers from the operator at that time, which to me rules out the likelihood that call was to Marina or the Paine residence. After all, he already knew those numbers! He didn't need the operator to tell him those numbers!

The first call, sometime between 1:30 and 2:00, seems to have lasted an awfully long time for the NYC attempt to get Abt. I mean, if Abt was not available, receptionists at law firms are trained in what to say and do if a prospective client calls and the lawyer is away. The calls don't last for an additional 20 minutes. I think "Oswald" did indeed talk to someone, probably at the firm, for a significant length of time.

Finally, the 8:00 pm call. Again, roughly 30 minutes in length, but to whom? 30 minutes is way too long for a discussion with someone at a law firm about an attorney who is unavailable.

Might I suggest another possibility?

Right around that very moment on Saturday evening, while he was in the Hotel-Dieu Hospital in New Orleans, Dean Andrews received a call from "Clay Bertrand" asking him to go to Dallas to represent "Oswald" legally. Certainly Clay Shaw did call Andrews on "Oswald's" behalf early Saturday evening. 

Did "Oswald" either directly, or through a cut-out, request help from Clay Shaw in securing an attorney? 

Alternatively, did one of the persons called by "Oswald", perhaps one not in on the plan to silence the patsy, then call Shaw who was also equally ignorant of the "final solution" to the "Oswald" problem?

If he did not, then how do we explain "Clay Bertrand's" call to Dean Andrews shortly after "Oswald" was on the phone with an unknown party or parties?

Wasn't McCord staying silent about any White House connections to the Watergate break-in (the June 17 one) until Nixon started hinting that the operation was CIA, and only then did McCord wrote his letter to Judge Sirica, insinuating deep, dark secrets in the Nixon White House?

In other words, McCord was OK with everything until it looked like the CIA might be scrutinized. And that was something that a long time CIA officer would never allow.

At least, that's my take on McCord. Loyal to the agency, come hell or high water. Even if the agency was dirty as hell.

Has anyone seen the 1989 letter from Glaze to the Alternative Information Network (?) that wound up in the hands of Larry Ray Harris? That's the second Glaze letter, and it (apparently) had the key information about Bill Shelley and the CIA. Glaze actually interviewed Bill Shelley at some point in the 1970's! None of us believe (I don't think so, anyway) that Shelley was a Langley - trained CIA operative, a sworn federal agent, but it is certainly possible that he was a contact, a source of information, a "PCI", an "asset" or whatever term the Federal Intelligence Agencies call those kind of people.

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt, we have the first letter, but I'd like to look at the second one. How do we get a copy?

Bart, do you have it?

Tony,

Thanks for responding. I have long thought that Baker’s first day affidavit was an indication that he didn’t fully believe Truly when he vouched  for the 3rd or 4th floor man. Especially since Baker completed his affidavit in plain view of “Oswald” and actually listened to “Oswald” complain right there in Fritz’s office, yet Baker in his affidavit  never identified “Oswald” as the same man he’d encountered earlier!

If it really was Daugherty they’d encountered, then Truly was telling Baker the truth at that moment (“That man works here”), but that leaves open the reason for Daugherty’s presence there at that moment: was he running down the stairs in a panic because he’d just heard gun shots, or was he somehow coordinating the escape of the sixth floor men?

On the other hand, the simplest explanation for the elevator’s descent at that moment is that Daugherty was riding it down, in which case, then who the hell did Baker and Truly encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor? (And, that would indicate that Baker’s suspect description may very well have been accurate.)

Did Daugherty descend in the west freight elevator with any conspirators? He may have.

On the other hand, if he did not, then I’d say John Armstrong’s passenger elevator theory is very much in play.

There is a Dean E. Glaze at 11322 Alhambra in Austin, aged 62, who is related (son?) to an Ellie Dean Glaze, according to the site “Been Verified”.

Could anyone make a call to Mr. Glaze and see?

Aw, come on Jim. You know perfectly well that anything that might have been a real lead tracking back to any place other than the mafia was the last thing at which Blakey wanted to look!

Precisely how and when did Jack Daugherty - hard at work, getting stock, supposedly - descend from the 5th floor to the first (and then asked either Charles Givens or Eddie Piper about the “loud noise”)?

I have always wondered about Daugherty’s rapid descent - did he actually run down the stairs unseen or heard by anyone?

Or, did he take the 5th floor west freight elevator down as Truly and Baker came up?

Or, was Jack Daugherty actually Marion Baker’s first-day affidavit suspect, encountered on third or fourth floor, walking away from the stairs, and (correctly) vouched for as a TSBD employee by Truly to Baker?

If so, then was this (possible/probable) encounter with Jack Daugherty that later that night morphed into Truly’s Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom story to the FBI?

Or, did Daugherty accompany anyone down on the west freight elevator to the first floor, say from the 5th or . . .6th floor?

My point is that any speculation about using the west freight elevator as an escape route for conspirators ought to consider Jack Daugherty’s mysterious descent at that very time.

Bart and David,

Apparently William Hoyt Shelley really was in uniform during WWII, albeit in the ROTC. It is not inconceivable that he was some sort of informant while working at a defense plant. In any event, the picture tells us he viewed himself as a soldier/patriot from a young age.

On 2/26/2019 at 2:20 AM, James DiEugenio said:

Someone should run a PSA on this interview.

I think the machine would break because of the overload.

Nothing that was classified that would have made any difference?

Connally's complaint not being substantive?

There were no time limits on the inquiry?

What a xxxx.

Jim,

I agree completely. Watching this made me think Dulles was used to misleading questioners. It is hard to qualify that, but when he was asked the question about the withheld documents, he was clearly breathing fast and shallow. He was agitated at the question, and was visibly tensing up.

I think Dulles in a number of public statements actually hinted at a conspiracy, including the very start of this interview:
"I think if you had ten more commissions, you'd never get away from the idea that maybe there was a plot . . . "

(IOW, he tried to whitewash it, but the facts of a conspiracy were just too damn obvious!)

Andrej:

Thanks for the information. If I understand you correctly, you are saying it would be impossible to access the top of this passenger elevator from anywhere except inside the elevator shaft itself. And therefore, no one, not a technician, not a conspirator, not an employee of the TSBD, no one could ever get to that elevator shaft save by entering the doors to the shaft with the elevator car itself lowered below that floor. Which means that no one could have entered the elevator shaft except via the fourth floor or below.

If there are no exceptions to this ever, and certainly no exceptions for this particular passenger elevator in the TSBD, then perhaps you might assert that. (With any documentation that we laymen might look at, if you would please.)

As someone who has zero technical knowledge of how elevator trap doors can be accessed, I'll take your word for it. If your statement is correct, then the elevator escape theory is dead. But then, I am curious: why didn't you raise this point on the first page of this thread?

Andrej: you wrote

"My point is that there was no opening on the sixth floor which could be open to climb down to the shaft."

Should we assume there really was such an opening on the fifth floor to access the elevator shaft?

If so, and maybe there was, then why do the blueprints for the fifth floor as published by the Warren Commission claim that there was no such opening on the fifth floor?

Exactly where did one access the top of the passenger elevator shaft, and are there any photos of that area, regardless of which floor it was?

Andrej:

You've raised some legitimate objections to the theory that the two 6th floor men (seen by at least five witnesses prior to the assassination) arrived there via the passenger elevator. I agree that it is unlikely that they rode the passenger elevator up to the 4th floor, lifted the trap door - after somehow hoisting themselves up through it - and climbed the interior ladder in the shaft up to the loose floor boards on the sixth floor, pushed their way up and through and then settled in to the business of setting up the sniper's nest for 12:30.

I don't know how those men arrived on the 6th floor, but they were there and seen for fifteen minutes before the assassination.

OK.

But John's theory is most helpful to explain their "escape" - what happened after the assassination. Your objections apply to their entry, not to their descent. After all, the elevator trap door WAS accessible from the outside, especially if it was not locked. And for now, we don't know whether it ever was. Maybe, or maybe not. Either way, unlocking the trap door would not seem to be an insurmountable obstacle for the conspirators.

Also, in my view, this thread has conflated two separate issues: 

1. Was the Vicky Adams version of 1963/64 was factually correct - John Armstrong's theory - (she saw Shelley and Lovelady near the freight elevators and the electrical control panels) OR was her 2002 Barry Ernest version was correct: Shelley and Lovelady were not there, and she did not see them.

There are arguments to be made either way, and it is our job to ferret out the truth.

2. How did the men on the sixth floor escape the sixth floor, apparently unmet by anyone in position to identify a conspirator?

Is John Armstrong's second theory , the "floorboard/passenger elevator escape theory," plausible?

It seems to me that several of us on this thread have rejected Armstrong's second theory because we've rejected the first. Might I propose that Armstrong's second theory - the escape theory - might be correct, even if the 2002 Vicky Adams/Sandra Styles version is true?

Armstrong himself even hinted at that possibility when he asked "if not Shelley and Lovelady, then who?" 

We don't know who was back by the electrical panels and it may not have been Shelley and Lovelady. But I believe we all agree that SOMEONE was there. Some of us on this thread believe that it was Eddie Piper, and perhaps it was.

But Marion Baker really did testify that he saw two white men there - which many of us would like to dismiss as a "mistake." (Really? A Dallas cop in 1963 mistook a black man in Texas for white men?) If Baker was correct, and he was specifically questioned on this point by Allen Dulles, then it wasn't Eddie Piper that Baker saw, hanging around the panels.

I think we ought to be very careful when evaluating anything. We've done a fine job of trying to parse out the truth of Vicky Adams' conflicting versions - we don't know the truth yet, but this kind of discussion is very useful.

However, we have NOT deliberated on the plausibility of the escape theory because (in my view) we've wedded its chances with the Vicky Adams story.

Those men descended from the sixth floor somehow, and no one can show how. Armstrong's "passenger elevator escape theory" is still very much in play.

31 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19425-was-oswald-stopped-by-sawyer-near-the-tsbd-front-entrance/

 

Thanks for posting that, Tony. While the speculation on that thread is fascinating (was "Oswald" the man stopped by Sawyer?), my point was much more narrow: someone got off the passenger elevator around 12:34, and this "man" was consistent with John Armstrong's escape theory.

Further, this "man" was helpful about the location of the shooting, and finally, this "man" almost certainly was the source of Sawyer's infamous 12:45 broadcast description of the "suspect". The only other possibility is that Sawyer ran into TWO "helpful" sources within less than ten minutes, and that he could remember no details of either. I think that is so unlikely that I bolded and underlined it before! That Belin asked exactly zero questions about this exiting elevator "man" furthers my suspicions that Sawyer's passenger elevator man and Sawyer's unknown broadcast description source were, in fact, one and the same.

This was my (windy) attempt to answer Andrej's good question from February 19:  "Besides my concerns about Shelley and Lovelady and the presence of power supply in the front of the building, there is also a question of the assassins' exit from the building. John suggests they exited the lift on the first floor. How could they be certain that they would not be seen by people standing close to the lift? They could not know who would stand there, this was beyond their control. No assassin would agree to a venture with uncertain escape."

My answer: This "man" was seen and thanks to his "help", he was able to direct the police to a floor (4th) where nothing was going on. Sawyer and company wasted a minute or two on the 4th floor before getting back to the first and trying to seal the building. By that time, the "man" was gone, never to be mentioned again by Sawyer.

There is official sworn testimony that an unnamed "man" exited the passenger elevator on the first floor within just a couple of minutes of the shooting. Further, this "man" apparently was very helpful to the police in determining the floor from which the shots allegedly were fired.

From Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer's deposition with David Belin:

"Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? 
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. 
And I went with a couple of officers and a man (not Truly, but who?) who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. 
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? 
Mr. SAWYER. That's right. 
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? 
Mr. SAWYER. Right. 
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? 
Mr. SAWYER.  We got into the elevator. We run into this man. "

In other words, as soon as the doors opened, the police entered and "ran into" a man trying to leave the passenger elevator! The "man" was helpful and told the police where to look!

Nice guy, this "man". (But of course, under intense questioning from David Belin, Sawyer then told us all about this "man", right? What's that you say? David Belin immediately changed the topic and asked no further questions about this "man"? Well, knock me over with a bulldozer! I'll be darned! Who could have seen that coming? 😉)

So exactly when did Sawyer "run into" this "man" who knew where to direct the police, this helpful "man", this unnamed Good Samaritan?

Well, according to his own testimony, by 12:37 Sawyer had spoken with a couple of officers, entered the TSBD, ridden the passenger elevator to the fourth floor, "looked around", and arrived back on the first floor in time to issue orders to seal off the building.