I think Greg has presented a solid case that the second car seen by Kirk Coleman was indeed Robert Surrey's 1961 Ford Sunliner, and that Surrey himself drove it out of the church parking lot within a minute or so after the Walker shot. Coupled with the tantalizing information from Gayle Nix-Jackson that both David and William Surrey claimed to have been eyewitnesses to the father's acquaintance with "Lee", the "attempted" Walker shooting was certainly some sort of false-flag action by provocateurs, probably with Surrey's knowledge.

But since there was in 1963 (and remains to this day) exactly zero physical evidence that Marina's husband fired at Walker on the evening of April 10, 1963, then her belated statements concerning her husband's "involvement" should be viewed very skeptically . . .  

Stamped by the Warren Commission

                 "INDEXED"

                 "Date" (hand-written) "2 - 1964"

24 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

How do you know that WC had received the Revill memo at the time Liebeler was questioning Mrs Mellor?

The only date we have for the Revill/Gannaway memo in which Teofil Meller stated that the FBI had declared "Oswald" "all right", is hazy. It was "indexed" by the Warren Commission and part of Commission document 950. 

The hand-written date appears as "2 - 1964". Liebeler questioned Anna Mellor five weeks later on March 5, 1964. In his questioning, Liebeler asked Anna about how many times she had been interviewed by various agencies. She had been interrogated by the FBI, the Secret Service and the Dallas P.D.! Liebeler then danced right up to the key question ("What did Teofil think the FBI meant when they told him that "Oswald" was "all right"?) and then scooted away into the "safe" territory of wife-beating . . . 

Liebeler knew - the Commission published the damning memo months later without a word of comment from Liebeler or anyone else on that lying commission. 

Note how close Liebeler to asking Anna Meller about the taboo ("Oswald's" relationship to the FBI) before deftly changing the subject:

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir; three times.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three times?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir - oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name but it was three times together.
Mr. LIEBELER - As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you once?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was it the Dallas police force?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Dallas police officers?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what?
Mrs. MELLER - It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard. from somebody that

Liebeler knew. 

4 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

This doesn't actually prove that Liebeler knew that Mr. Mellor had reported this to the FBI. You could say it was careless for Mrs Mellor to not tell this to Liebeler at this moment but on a technical point it doesn't prove that Liebeler knew it had been reported to the FBI.

I know the WC were covering up lots of things, but just trying to make technical point here. 

The Voshinins should have told the WC during their testimony that they had reported to the FBI that lho might have been involved in the Walker shooting, but they chose to stay quiet just like the Mellors did here.

It seems the white Russian community had a loyalty to the FBI not to drag them into their testimony. Either that or they were afraid of being seen publicy as "snitches" for the FBI.

Are you really implyng that the Meller's somehow conspired to hide Teofil Meller's call to the FBI from Liebeler? 

Liebeler's job was to know and ask about everything relating to his witnesses. The Warren Commission had the DPD memo titled "Criminal Intelligence: Teofil Meller". If Liebeler truly did not know, then he was incompetent and stupid, and nothing of value can ever be learned of any witness he questioned in any context.

However, Liebeler was neither incompetent nor stupid. He (and all of the Warren Commission attorneys) knew what they had to find: no conspiracy, come hell or high water.

When Anna Meller testified that seeing "Das Kapital" in the "Oswald" home made her "real upset", rather than asking her the natural follow-up question ("What did you then do?"), Liebeler changed the subject. I don't see any way to read that except that Liebeler was well aware that he was on dangerous ground and needed to tread carefully.

Mrs. MELLER - I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was that the last time that you saw him?
Mrs. MELLER - It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her house.

16 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Nice research. But did Liebeler know about that Revill memo at the time he questioned Mr. Mellor? That point is not clear.

The WC was full of instances of having to call witnesses back to get clarification on this and that. Yes they could and should have called Mr. Mellor back to ask who at the FBI he spoke to. But of course, the FBI was the WCs main investigatory body, and so they had to tow a fine line of being careful of being seen to delve too deeply into the FBIs interactions with LHO. Maybe they were worried if they delved too deeply, they would antagonize the FBI and create problems in their relationship with the FBI which they needed to finish their report into the assassination. 

Liebeler questioned Anna Meller about the very same "Das Kapital" incident as referenced in the Revill DPD memo. Remember, the subject of that Revill memo was "Criminal Intelligence: Teofil Meller", and Liebeler had Teofil sitting right there. 

Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw Oswald
and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever told you about any thing or when you learned about anything. When did you next see Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER - Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought - always for Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and, come back home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature about Communism. It caught my eye and I we real upset.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you say anything to Oswald?
Mrs. MELLER - I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset.

Gerry, you and I agree (I think) that the Warren Commission did not want any evidence that would "create problems" - they were determined to find "no conspiracy", no matter where the truth lay. 

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I found it.  I forgot I had it on my own site.

Everyone should read this.  it is long but it really rewarding.

I think of this as RCD's tour de force.

Who could have done this but him.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/was-oswald-a-serial-wife-batterer

Thanks, Jim for posting that.

As I read it, I was reminded that the Warren Commission was incredibly highly selective about the questions posed to various witnesses. Anna and Teofil Meller, mentioned in RCD's article, both appeared in person before Wesley Liebler in the spring of 1964. However, a search of the Warren Commission's testimony reveals that only Anna's name shows up as a witness.

Hmm.

Why?

Because Teofil Meller had told the Dallas P.D. that in the summer of 1962 he had seen a copy of Karl Marx's "Das Capital" in "Oswald's" apartment and became so worried about "Oswald's" political leanings that he, Meller, called the FBI.

The kicker?

The FBI assured Teofil Meller that "Oswald" was "all right." 

Huh.

Now that comment should have elicited some questions from Liebler to Teofil Meller - what exactly did Meller think that meant? With whom exactly had he spoken? Did Meller believe that "Oswald" was working for the FBI? If not, how else to interpret that? And so on.

Instead, Liebeler did not want to know. How do we know that? 

Because Liebeler had Teofil Meller right there in person in front of him as Liebeler questioned Anna Meller and he asked Teofil Meller exactly nothing about anything. He wanted to stay as far away as possible from any "Oswald"/FBI connections.

If Teofil Meller had good reason to believe that "Oswald" was OK with the anti-communist FBI, then the rest of the White Russian community did as well. 

Jack Revill's memo in which Teofil Meller told the DPD that the FBI cleared "Oswald" in 1962:

Liebeler's weasel questioning of Anna Meller and his refusal to clear up or ask anything at all of Teofil Meller about the FBI and "Oswald".

Liebeler avoided Teofil Meller like the plague even though he was right there in front of him!

TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER

The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER - Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of those documents with that letter?
Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JM-

Well...obviously, anyone who questions the evidence in the JFKA is on solid footing. I cannot say you are wrong, and you are expert on the topic. 

Just IMHO....

On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying. 

LHO in interrogation said he went home to get his gun as "that is what boys do." Again, there is no recording of that, and as you know, transcripts of LHO's interrogations are sketchy. So, it could be a false transcript. 

Where I respectfully depart from you...well, is on the size of the pre-event and immediate post-event JFKA conspiracy. 

I am biased. If I were planning such a risky endeavor (I abhor violence and never would, btw) I would only trust close confederates, men I had soldiered with for years, or were heavily vouched for, and in very small numbers, as in less than you can count on one hand missing fingers. 

After the JFKA, there was a lot of complicity, falling into line, fear of being clumped in with communists or LHO, and looking askance as evidence was enhanced to meet the narrative (a narrative most believed was true). 

But..for me, explanations of the JFKA that require witting pre-event or immediate post-event involvement of many people across many agencies, federal and local...are not compelling. 

The DPD officers said when they arrested LHO he was armed. Signed affidavits. Maybe it was all a lie. 

 

 

 

"On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying."

Ben,

I agree with you that our man "Oswald" almost certainly did have some firearm on him when he was confronted by the DPD in the Texas Theater. However, I strongly doubt his story as to how he came to have it (he went to 1026 N. Beckley to retrieve it because "that is what boys do.") No, that is NOT how he came to have it - there is exactly zero evidence he ever ordered, paid for, received (and stored any gun at that address) ever. 

So how did "Oswald" wind up with a handgun inside the theater? My guess is that he was given it by his contact in the theater, the person he was seeking. He did not know this person by sight - thus his seat-hopping before the movie routine - but he connected with this person, and they slipped it to him. 

Who was it?

Well, the only evidence we have is the statement by patron Jack Davis who said that "Oswald" last sat next to a pregnant woman who then walked back to the lobby. We know that the DPD received numerous calls from inside the theater claiming that their suspect had arrived, armed with a shotgun over his shoulder. (We also know that the DPD tapes of those calls have disappeared, of course.)

Ludicrous, yet those repeated calls (not from Julia Postal) prompted the DPD to react quickly. Did the pregnant woman make these calls to the DPD, once our "Oswald" had safely arrived and once she had slipped him the revolver?

That's my guess. 

After all, what kind of actual "pregnant woman" goes to see a war movie on a matinee Friday by herself?

None - she was an intelligence operative, whoever she was, and her assignment was to get a revolver into our "Oswald's" hands so the DPD could confront an armed suspect.

Our "Oswald" figured that part out - that's why he claimed later that it had been "planted" on him.

(Whether it was the revolver used in the Tippit killing is doubtful - I agree with Tom Gramm above that the Texas Theater revolver was probably swapped later with the Tippit revolver once the DPD had their hands on both guns.)

41 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Maybe this is too simplistic in it's selective dot connecting premise

But one could reasonably consider that Oswald was being groomed for the "fall guy" role in a JFK elimination plot by the anti-Castro Cuban controlling U.S. intelligence community.

Oswald is taken to Sylvia Odio's apartment, visibly shown and identified by name. Later Leopoldo makes it a point to quote this loco gringo as saying the Cubans didn't have the guts to take out JFK to Ms. Odio.

Oswald is told to take a pot shot at Walker to prove he is a crazy, murder minded far right wing avenging communist sympathizer. His back yard photos hugely enhance this image.

Oswald makes a press covered spectacle of himself by handing out pro-Castro leaflets in broad daylight downtown New Orleans. A city brimming with thousands of hot headed  Castro hating exiles. Of course sparking a brawl with the exiles leader Bringeur.

Crazy illogical as a bull horn Marine recruitment drive in People's Park in Berkeley in 1969.

So, "they" tell Oswald he would be a hero to the Castro regime if he helps with the TXSBD shooting scenario.

But, in reality, Oswald of course knows all of his pro-Castro sheep dipping image is false.

He is actually a plant monitoring these JFK death wish Cubans and maybe even "thinks" the shooting will purposely fail. He immediately realizes he is the dumb fall guy and is now running for his life. 

Two days after 11,22,1963 he himself is eliminated. Closing the trap door with him taking the rap as JFK's lone nut killer forever.

What a sad, poor dupe story.

And I was always curious about Orestes Pena mentioning that Oswald puked soon after drinking some lemonade in his bar.

I wondered. did Orestes brother spike Oswald's lemonade with grill cleaner? Or some other toxic chemical?

 

Joe,

A couple of things:

 I also think it is likely that our man "Oswald" really was at Sylvia Odio's apartment, although with precisely who is unknown. I have written before about the startling contrast between what was said in his immediate presence and what was said the next day about him during the infamous phone call to Sylvia Odio. ("Leopoldo" only mentioned "Oswald's" crazy intensity when he, "Oswald", was no longer in earshot. In other words, "Oswald" did not know that his Latin companions were eager to label him a potential assassin to Sylvia Odio.)

As to Orestes Pena and the incident in the Habana Bar in New Orleans, Pena claimed that "Oswald" was often accompanied at other times by a local FBI agent. The "lemonade" incident is well-known, but what is relatively unknown is that Pena himself was lead-piped in the head in 1968 when he was to meet Harold Weisberg to identify the FBI agent with "Oswald." Pena never made it to that meeting, and Weisberg was unable to ferret an identity from Pena later. 

As far as I know, Pena never said that Warren DeBrueys was the agent in question, but Weisberg strongly suspected it. 

So, your theory (which has been around a long time) that "Oswald's" drink was deliberately poisoned might be correct. After all, Pena and his buddies were staunch anti-Castro Cubans and they probably believed "Oswald" was a federal snitch/informant/source/etc. sent to spy on their activities. 

I think most people here probably agree with that theory. 

I do, anyway. 

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The National Inquirer had a bad rap...but this story sure had a lot of insights. 

Manuel Garcia Gonzales.

Hmm.

What does Paul Bleau have to say about him?

1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

Sounds like Ben needs to read a Herald Weisberg book because he is saying things that aren't accurate if you read White Wash the rifle wasn't hidden like that you need to read more books.. 

Matthew,

Weisberg's key point was correct: the rifle was not merely "thrown" or worse "tossed" into position. No, it had to be placed carefully on the floor between the boxes because there was a box "bridge" above it which both partially obscured it and prevented anyone from dropping it into position. 

Weisberg noted that the Secret Service "re-enactment" of "Oswald's" alleged movements after the shooting including throwing the rifle into position. Weisberg argued that the rifle simply could not have been thrown - it must have been placed there, carefully.

So why was that distinction "tossed" versus "placed" important?

Because every second counted in the official version of the crime. Any additional movements by "Oswald" meant additional seconds, and neither the Secret Service nor the FBI nor the Warren Commission wanted any evidence that it was impossible for "Oswald" (or anyone else) to have put that rifle into position and still to have made it to the second floor within 72-75 seconds (their timing.) They could not afford even the few extra seconds for "Oswald" to place the rifle in that spot. They had to have him throw it!

No matter what anyone may think about the validity (or lack thereof) of the "Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter", all of us should agree that the Warren Commission relied heavily on it, if only to try to demonstrate that it was possible for "Oswald" to made it there in time and still be the only shooter. 

Weisberg was outraged that their "reconstruction" was not honest at all - it was a frame-up from the start. 

And that, I hope, is something on which we all can agree.

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Did you know that if there was no follow up interviews with the 3 boys, after their initial statements, you'd come away thinking Williams was with the other two the whole upstairs time.

Good point, Tony.

Many researchers for decades have long suspected that the FBI deliberately "modified" witness statements to fit a "no-conspiracy" scenario.

In this case, they altered the length of time Wiliams spent on the sixth floor. They claimed he was only up there for three minutes - and therefore, if he left around 12:03, it would seem plausible to anyone reading their account of the interview, that Williams did NOT cross paths with the mechanics/conspirators. The FBI feared/knew that if they quoted Williams' own time estimate accurately, then it was virtually impossible for him not have seen or heard anyone else on the sixth floor.

I am virtually certain that not only did Bonnie Ray Williams come face-to-face with some of the conspirators, but that the FBI also suspected it and intentionally shortened in their report the length of time Williams actually spent on the sixth floor.

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Now there's also a dispute about where the piece of chicken was found. Some said it was on a box in the sniper's nest itself, and not two aisles over. To give it an innocent spin...perhaps Williams went over to the SN window to get a better look at Norman and Jarman--to make sure it was them. He then just left 1he chicken and rushed over to the stairs. After which the sniper came out of the shadows...

OR...perhaps it's as simple as Williams' being threatened--"If you tell anyone you saw me up here I'll tell them you were in on it and ratted me out because you wanted more money" or some such thing. It's intriguing that Norman and Jarman spoke to the HSCA, while Williams (and Givens).

Pat,

Do you agree with me that if Bonnie Ray Williams left the sixth floor of his own accord sometime after 12:00 noon without seeing anyone, then it was a remarkably lucky coincidence for the sixth-floor conspirators?

I don't put much stock in "lucky coincidence" in this case.

I don't believe the sixth-floor conspirators would have relied on waiting out Bonnie Ray Williams. They were there to play a role in the assassination, and they surely weren't going to mess around and hope that BRW would leave on his own. 

I think it is highly likely they confronted him and shooed him off the floor under some "security" pretext. And he wouldn't have realized the significance of their presence until later. 

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Pat has some interesting quotes from the 10-20-77  HSCA interview with Norman (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-8-pieces-of-work) :

----------------------------

(When asked a bit later if he saw Oswald come in to work) "No...There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the president coming to town. Then when he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do when he's playing cowboys and Indians?...He did like this: 'pow.'" (When asked if he meant that Oswald behaved as if he were a "cowboy firing two guns') "Yes."

(When asked if he knew anyone who'd bought their lunch from the lunch truck on the day of the shooting) "Williams was the only one that I knew that bought some chicken from that truck." 

-----------------------------

So Williams bought his lunch from the foodtruck, I suppose that explains how he lost contact with his 2 friends, he went up to 6th and they to 5th

I'm gonna have to read some things once more, some things are what they have to be, Walt Brown was close  

Thanks for the link to Pat's stuff. There are some good quotes there. Check this out from a witness who knew Bonnie Ray Williams:

(7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he ever discussed the assassination with other eyewitnesses) "Over the years, I have. I met a gentleman named Williams. No, Bonnie Ray Williams was his name. Bonnie worked here at the building. I met him at General Motors, parts depot, after I started driving for Merchant’s Freight Lines here in Dallas and had some conversation with him. And Bonnie Ray, he was always... he was scared because so many people had died that had anything to do with that thing mysteriously. And he was a little bit leery all the time about it...He really didn’t offer anything other than he was here, and he was on the fifth floor. And that’s about it. He didn’t elaborate on it that much."

If Bonnie Ray Williams really did see and/or was "ordered" off the sixth floor while eating his lunch before the assassination, then I'll bet he was scared . . . 

Good question, Jean Paul.

It is remarkable that Bonnie Ray Williams was on the very floor from which at least one, and probably two men were seen by witnesses on the ground just a few minutes later. 

Williams alleged that the sixth floor was very quiet: so quiet was "one of the reasons he left."

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. 
Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.
Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

"One of the reasons"? ("Do tell us what the other reasons were, Mr. Williams". Just joking, of course. Joseph Ball did not ask.)

Further, according to Williams, the FBI had shortened the time he spent on the sixth floor - he claimed he never told them he was up there for only three minutes. 

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Williams testified that he could NOT see the "sniper's nest" from his lunch spot on the sixth floor- the boxes were stacked nearly to the top of the window. 

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Yet we know that there were men on the sixth floor within moments of Williams' departure.

Were they there before he left?

How could they not be? After all, they were conspirators, and their job was to plant the evidence and arrange the scene of the sniper's nest. 

How hard could it have been for conspirators to act in an officious manner and intimidate a 23-year-old, not very well educated (but observant and maybe quite savvy) black man such as Bonnie Ray Williams in Dallas in 1963? The assassination had not yet happened at that moment, so as far as Williams knew, these men were legitimate - maybe something to do with the president's security team. (Just a guess, but I bet that would have worked before the arrival of the motorcade.)

How did these men get to the sixth floor?

My guess is by the west freight elevator - the same one used by Jarman and Norman to get to the fifth floor. But remember, the west elevator was the one which could be "called", that is, someone on a different floor (the ground floor, say) could press a button and it would respond. Unlike the east elevator which required the operator to be in the elevator itself. 

Curiously, Allen Dulles himself nearly let the cat out of the bag when he asked Williams whether the elevators were sufficiently noisy that Williams would have noticed if someone else brought the west elevator to the sixth floor:

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question? Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends--
Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything.

Note that Dulles interrupted Williams just as Williams was about to distinguish between the noise levels of the east and west freight elevators. Dulles did not want Williams to state on the record that the west elevator was quieter and would not necessarily be heard ("That all depends--")

Finally, when asked the key question three different times, Williams refused to swear that the west elevator was on the fifth floor when he descended via the east freight elevator from the sixth floor around 12:15:

Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able did you remember which elevator it was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?
Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.
Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.
Mr. BALL. Did you, later?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.

So, from Williams own testimony, there was no confirmation that the west freight elevator, the one which could be "called" independently, the quiet one, was on the fifth floor just before the assassination. 

Further, Williams claimed he could not have seen anyone in the sixth-floor southeast corner, and when he was about to explain why he wouldn't have necessarily heard anyone's arrival via the west freight elevator, Allen Dulles cut him off!

So yes, Jean Paul, I would say there is a very real possibility men arrived on the sixth floor via the west freight elevator, that Bonnie Ray Williams was smart enough after the fact to tailor his testimony to the emerging "official" narrative, but that he really had seen or heard someone or something on the sixth floor around 12:15.

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

You understate the case. Dougherty was not only "near" the stairway, he was, according to the commission's scenario, just standing there, 20 feet or so away from the open floor Oswald would have to have crossed to go downstairs. They avoided all questions about this because they knew where this would ultimately lead--that Dougherty was not where he said he was when they needed him to be there. Yes, they were in a bit of a bind. They desperately needed Dougherty to be upstairs at the time of the shooting so they could say he was the one who took the elevator down as Baker and Truly ran up. But they couldn't have him descend for 2 minutes or so after the shooting. And, they believed the elevator was already on this floor, within a few feet of where Dougherty had been working. So they just left it at that--they let people think Dougherty was too stupid to notice anyone running past him. But we have reason to suspect they knew this wasn't true.

When I read up on Joe Ball's career I was surprised to find he was famous for destroying witnesses on the stand. Apparently, he was particularly famous for making problematic witnesses look stupid, so that his clients (many of whom we can suspect were guilty) would go free. One case I read about stands out, for that matter. A man was accused of raping an underage girl, and Ball found out she'd never learned to read a clock. So he asked her on the record to tell the time on a clock, and then used her failure to undermine her credibility in his final summation. Essentially, he told the jury she was so stupid we couldn't trust her to know if she'd been raped or not. Well, he and his mini-me Belin used this same tactic over and over. They smeared Rowland using his wife. They avoided asking key questions and smeared Piper and Dougherty in the WR. And they used Lovelady and Shelley's inconsistent testimony to smear Adams. And, at the same time, they propped up Givens--who had a huge sign around his neck saying "unreliable witness." It was all by design.

And they weren't the designers. The record is clear that after Specter interviewed the first round of witnesses, and inconsistencies began to appear, that Warren told the staff he wanted a clean record, with minimal inconsistencies. It is also clear that Ball and Belin jumped on board and said they could cut down on the inconsistencies if they could pre-interview witnesses and screen out problematic answers, and that Redlich objected. And that Warren over-ruled Redlich. This is what happened. It's all in Willens' diary. 

The Warren Commission was a cover-up. Pure and simple. 

They may not have known what they were covering up, but that's a separate discussion. 

 

Well stated, Pat. 

Harold Weisberg put it simply over 57 years ago: the Warren Commission was a "Whitewash" (thus the title of his series of books.)

The crime never was investigated honestly by the proper authorities. Their "solution" was mere sophistry, nothing but political expediency. Blame the dead guy - the "evidence" will never be tested in court. 

Neither LBJ nor J. Edgar Hoover nor anyone else in Washington D.C. wanted a real investigation. Earl Warren couldn't stomach the idea that powerful forces, accountable to no one had killed JFK. He was, after all, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, but a finding of conspiracy meant that his whole career paled in comparison to the true (dark) powers in the country. 

A real investigation would determine that there was a conspiracy, and LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover knew that the fingers of suspicion would be forever pointed at them, regardless of their respective innocence. 

Same with the Secret Service. Any "solution" beyond a lone nut meant that they had failed in their most basic duty.

So, the three bodies most in charge of telling the nation what happened on November 22, 1963 had no incentive to tell the truth, and very powerful incentives to lie. 

And they did.

2 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Interesting analysis and could be correct.

One question: I thought Shelley and Sawyer went up not on the freight elevator, but the passenger elevator on the east side of the first floor?

Have I been wrong about that?

Never mind. You and I agree that Sawyer went up the passenger elevator.

But do we agree that Dougherty heard some kind of loud noise as soon as he arrived on the fifth floor, and that could not have been a gun shot?

6 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Previously in this thread, I mentioned circa 12:38 for the Baker/Sawyer meeting. The time would relatively be an even split between Sawyer exiting his car and re-entering his car.

Pat has Shelley calling to Dougherty to guard the passenger elevator at the point where Sawyer confronts the mystery man. (who Pat believes is Shelley)

So Shelley calls out at circa 12:35 as Dougherty is walking to the west elevator.

Major problem here is how on earth could Dougherty believe everything was so normal on the 1st floor, 5 minutes after the assassination, that he intended to start picking orders?

That aside, effectively, in Pat's hypothesis, both Shelley/Sawyer and Dougherty would be riding their respective elevators upwards at the same time. Dougherty to the 6th, Shelley/Sawyer to the 4th.

The above destroys Shelley's affidavit by the way. Dougherty was not "left to guard the elevator"

So by the time Dougherty reaches the 6th, Sawyer is moving across the 4th floor, noting the ladies, the open space etc.

Dougherty begins to pick orders on the 6th. If we have the Shelley call out at 12:35, we must be reaching 12:37 by the time Dougherty takes the ride up 6 floors, and actually completes picking orders on the 6th.

Then Dougherty re-enters the elevator and descends to the 5th to again pick orders, at a time where it must be close to the time where Baker meets Sawyer on the 4th at circa 12:38.

To subscribe to this hypothesis, not only is Shelley's affidavit incorrect, but also what he told the FBI. The hypothesis demands that Shelley's estimation of 10 minutes to enter the west entrance was out by more than 10 times.

 

 

 

 

Interesting analysis and could be correct.

One question: I thought Shelley and Sawyer went up not on the freight elevator, but the passenger elevator on the east side of the first floor?

Have I been wrong about that?

9 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Ron

It seems that, when it comes to the Book Depository and its occupants, anything is possible.  In the April 2020 Weston article in Kennedys and King, Carolyn Arnold, a secretary for Ochus Campbell (VP of the Depository), told a friend in 1994 that she had been, and still was, terrified. She said that “there is a whole lot more to tell about the TSBD than what has been published ... that the whole building should be suspected as more or less of a ‘safe base’ to operate from that day in November 1963.”

The Texas School Book Depository (whose auspicious owner was D. H. Byrd, of Civil Air Patrol fame) had only occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for a few months prior to the assassination, moving into a new location in the summer of 1963.  Prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston and others allege that the TSBD may have been used for smuggling activities and arms shipments (hence the various rifle stories and sightings) for right-wing groups and Cuban exiles.  There is an interesting February 2006 EF thread begun by Weston called "Spiders Web", where he posits that Depository and book company executives used schoolbooks to disguise shipments of firearms and narcotics. 

Gene

Gene,

I was a subscriber to Jerry Rose's "The Third Decade" and to his "The Fourth Decade". I read both of Weston's original articles back then as well as the 2020 follow-up article in "Kennedy's and King." (And I listened to Len Osanic's interview with William Weston on Black Op Radio.)

I agree with all those who suspect that the TSBD at 411 Elm was more than a mere schoolbook depository. And, it may well have been a CIA safe site to stash clandestine weapons and drugs, both coming in and out of the country.

OK.

But on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, how could the conspirators be sure that honest cops/investigators/employees etc. would confine a post-assassination search to only those boxes and areas that were "safe"?

Guns and drugs could have been in big boxes before the assassination on the sixth floor, but surely there were not any in the boxes the afternoon of the assassination, were there?

After all, the accidental discovery of either rifles or drugs in schoolbook boxes would raise enormous alarm. How could that have been contained?

While weapons and/or drugs may have been secretly stored there before the assassination, I think it is very unlikely that any contraband was actually present in any of the big boxes on that Friday afternoon. Too much of a risk.

Getting back to our man, Roy Truly, William Manchester wrote that Truly "disapproved strongly of Kennedy's policies abroad and believed he was a "race-mixer" at home."

Death of a President, page 49: The Death Of A President : Manchester, William : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

19 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

You can work Sawyer backwards through the timeline. He's back in his car on the radio at circa 12:40. Before that he was discussing security with police near the front doors. Before that he rode the passenger elevator down from the 4th floor. And finally before that, he was chatting with Baker in the North/West 4th floor corner of the TSBD.

Tony,

You make a good point, but we do agree that Baker was up on the roof of the TSBD with Truly, right?

If so, then I don't see how Baker could have been up there much before 12:35. After all, by the WC's own admission, the (supposed) Baker/"Oswald" confrontation could not have completed before 12:32. Baker and Truly still had to run up three more flights of stairs with a momentary pause on each one as Baker surveyed the immediate area, no matter how briefly. Baker and Truly still had to take the 5th floor elevator to the 7th floor and then ascend to the roof. They then had to surveil the roof, peek over and make a quick check for any possible hiding places, and then leave. 

Are you saying that was completed before 12:36?

How much less time? 12:35, maybe?

And if it took more time, then how on his way back down could Baker have run into Sawyer on the 4th floor in time for Sawyer to get back down to his cruiser by 12:40 or so?

I still think that Pat Speer's hypothesis is very possible - that the loud noise heard by Dougherty ("backfire") was not a rifle shot but was actually a noise made by Baker and Truly on the roof. 

32 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

Regarding your question about Shelley, John Armstong's website has a page called "Escape form the 6th Floor" where he posits that Bill Shelley (Oswald's supervisor) may have traveled to Louisiana in August 1963 and been in contact with Harvey Oswald in New Orleans. When Oswald was passing out FPCC literature, in front of Clay Shaw's International Trade Mart, a man who looks very much like Shelley was standing close to Oswald. There is no proof this man was Bill Shelley, but the physical resemblance is unmistakable.

Armstrong points out that Oswald himself said that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the shooting (recorded on handwritten notes by Capt. Fritz and FBI agent Jim Hosty). Apparently, Oswald expected his supervisor and CIA contact (Shelley) to confirm that he and Oswald were together during the shooting.  But Oswald did not realize that Shelley was part of a plan to make sure that he quickly left the TSBD shortly after shots were fired ... a hasty departure that would appear as though he was evading capture. When Shelley was later questioned about Oswald's whereabouts after the shooting, Shelley denied being with Oswald.  Armstong believes that it was also possible that it was Shelley who instructed Oswald to leave the TSBD, instructed him to board the #433 bus, and instructed him to meet a contact at the Texas Theater. 

Armstrong adds more suspicion of Shelley by suggesting that he might have orchestrated other suspicious activities in the TSBD. It appears the electricity in the TSBD was turned off as the escort car turned from Main St. onto Houston St., less than one minute before shots were fired at the President. The electrical panels were located on the back side of the building on the first floor, close to the domino room and close to Bill Shelley's office. Roy Truly probably knew Shelley was responsible for turning off the electricity, which is why Truly ignored the passenger elevator, failed to look at the electrical panels, and said nothing about the two men he encountered (almost certainly Shelley and Lovelady). Officer Marrion Baker was asked by Warren Commissioner Senator Cooper if he saw anyone else while in the building, (other than Oswald and Truly) and Baker replied:

"On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us." 

David Belin knew there were two unidentified "white men" at the back of the TSBD, only one minute after the shooting. But when Belin interviewed Roy Truly a few weeks later, he never questioned Truly about these two men, nor did Truly say anything about these two men.  Neither Baker nor Truly provided any information to the Commission as to the two unknown "white men" seen at the back of the TSBD within two minutes of the shooting. Shelley and Lovelady's April 1964 testimony was accepted by the Commission, which concluded that Shelley and Lovelady were outside of the TSBD during and after the shooting, and only returned to the building 10 minutes later. 

Before running up the wooden stairs with Officer Baker, Truly told Bill Shelley not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway, as testified before the Warren Commission:

"Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway...."

Only one minute after shots were fired, Armstong asks what possible, legitimate reason could Shelley and Lovelady have for being at the rear of the building?  Notably, the electricity was turned back on when these two men were on the first floor near the electrical panels. Finally, Shelly was one of the building employees who later identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the DPD station.  The picture below of an individual in New Orleans with Oswald during the leaflet charade bears an uncanny resemblance to Shelly. 

Gene

Gene,

I too have long been suspicious of William Shelley for all the reasons listed above.

However, I doubt that Billy Nolan Lovelady was a witting conspirator. I believe (but I can't prove) that he was naive, gullible and used by Shelley.

Lovelady was harassed by unnamed outsiders every day for the rest of his life.

How do I know?

Because his wife said so and the New York Times quoted her:

A Look‐Alike of Oswald Is Reported Dead at 41 - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

What is especially curious to me is the man who was the "lawyer who spoke for the family", Kenneth Brooten.

Who was Kenneth Brooten?

He was the acting chief counsel for the HSCA. (Mr. Lovelady died in Colorado at the age of 41 in January of 1979, just as the HSCA published its findings. No cause of death listed.)

Mr. Brooten started his legal career as an assistant to several congressmen between 1962 and 1967. He was an insider. 

Kenneth Edward Brooten Edit Profile

lawyer

Assistant to several congressmen, United States House of Representatives, Washington, 1962-1967; administrative assistant, VA Center Office, Washington, 1967; administrative officer, Veterans Administration Hospital., Gainesville, Florida, 1967-1972; partner, Carter & Brooten, P.A., Gainesville, Florida, 1975-1978; partner, Brooten & Fleisher, Chartered, Washington and Gainesville, Florida, 1978-1980; private practice,, Washington and Gainesville, 1980-1986; private practice,, Washington, 1987-1988; private practice,, Washington and Orlando, Florida, 1988-1991; private practice,, Washington and Winter Park, Florida, since 1991. Permanent special counsel, acting chief counsel, director Select Committee Assassinations United States House of Representatives, 1976-1977. Counsel Her Majesty's Government of United Kingdom (in the United States).

So why was a powerful bigwig speaking on behalf of the family of a nobody, reassuring the world through the NYT that there was nothing else to ask of or say about Billy Lovelady?

Did Mr. Lovelady's untimely demise have anything to do with whatever he saw back in 1963?

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

On a Saturday?

Dougherty's testimony is full of contradictions and oddities. He comes off as a simple, easily confused man. 

But what is curious is this exchange between Ball and Dougherty:

Mr. Ball: Did you see any strangers in the building that day?

Mr. Dougherty: No, sir.

Mr. Ball: Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. Ball: Who said that?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairy good-sized package.

Mr. Ball: When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, it was - the day after it happened. 

Tony, since Ball had yet to depose Shelley, one might think that an honest investigator would ask a witness to confirm or refute an alleged statement indicating the possible guilt of "Oswald."

But, for reasons I've previously explained, Ball neither would nor could ask Shelley about it. (It was a lie, Ball knew it was a lie, and if Shelley then lied about it under oath, not only would Shelley have perjured himself, but Ball might be guilty of suborning perjury. No, Balls only possible solution was to ignore Dougherty's statement and ask Shelley nothing about it. So that's exactly what Ball did. Nothing.)

Why did Shelley lie to Dougherty?

Because Dougherty needed to be "convinced" of "Oswald's" guilt. Especially if Dougherty had accidentally witnessed the escape of one of the conspirators from the upper floors. 

28 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

It was established that Sawyer exited his car circa 12:34, so we are looking at possibly 12:35 when Sawyer finds himself by the passenger elevator with the mystery man.

You have Dougherty moving from the bathroom to the west elevator at the point where Shelley yells out to him to come on over and guard the passenger elevator.

That would be a 100ft shout out to Dougherty through all sorts of obstacles on the 1st floor. 

In any event, you now have Dougherty ignoring Shelley, to enter the west elevator at circa 12:35. He then has to make the 30 second trip up to the 6th where he begins to pick orders. At the shortest possible time, we must closing in on 12:37

He then has to re-enter the elevator and take it down to the 5th, where he begins picking orders. We are now at the time where Baker is talking to Sawyer on the 4th floor, one floor below Dougherty.

I can't see how the noise Dougherty heard was generated by Baker/Truly above him.

 

 

Tony,

I am not so sure about that. You may be right but if the "backfire" heard by Dougherty (and assumed by the FBI the DPD, the Warren Commission and everyone else to be a shot) was really made by Baker and Truly on the roof, then the timing might work.

I don't think Baker and Truly could have arrived on the roof before 12:35. If they spent a minute or so poking their heads over the wall and looking around, then a loud "bang" at 12:36/37 seems plausible to me. 

Whatever else Dougherty was, he was adamant about his own location when he heard the mysterious noise - he was just west of the 5th floor freight elevator. A loud bang at that time seems to fit the probable movements of Baker and Truly. 

Pat is correct that much of this should have been cleared up decades ago, but we all know that the authorities were determined NOT to investigate. Instead, they had to reach the only politically acceptable "solution", namely LHO did it all by himself for reasons known solely to him.

Evidence be damned. 

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth 20 minutes or so before the shooting. I believe they were non-committal as to whether they left the gate up. But when they got there the east elevator was supposedly up on the sixth. So it seems possible Jarman and Norman left the gate up so they would be guaranteed access for their trip back down. I mean. most people used the front elevator. As far as they knew they were the only ones on the upper floors. So it only makes sense that they would not bring down the gate and lock the elevator on their floor. 

But we don't know any of this stuff because the DPD and FBI etc either failed to comprehend the importance of the elevator or refused to actually investigate this issue. I don't think there's any memo or report prior to March or April in which the elevator situation was even discussed. The supposed story is that Williams took the east up to the sixth, and then the fifth, where it was locked in place. And that Jarman and Norman took the west up to the fifth but didn't lock it in place. They need this to be so they can explain how Dougherty got back upstairs to go back to work. So he takes it up to the sixth and then the fifth...where he supposedly is at the time of the shooting. But here's one of the massive HOLES in the official story. They then have him standing by the elevator on the fifth for two minutes or so after the shots, when his words suggest he came down n a matter of seconds after hearing the loud sound above him. And this two minutes or so is lethal to the official story, IMO. The west elevator is like 25 feet from the stairwell Oswald supposedly came down on--the stairwell that opens up into the room. IOW, the official story has Oswald run right past Dougherty. So why was Dougherty never asked if he saw or heard Oswald run past him? When I put this together I realized that the whole Dougherty on the fifth floor at the time of the shots story was a concoction and not a conclusion. The relevant questions before one could come to such a conclusion were just never asked. 

P.S. As the last known movement of the west elevator prior to the shooting was 20 minutes or so before the shooting by Jarman and Norman, it remains possible someone called or took this elevator up to the sixth in that period. As I recall Williams was not asked if he saw this elevator when he took the east elevator down. As far as Truly, I don't put much stock in his claim both elevators were on the same floor. I doubt someone standing on the first floor could quickly glimpse two elevators from below and determine for sure if they were both four floors up, or if one was five floors up. But even if he's correct, it just means that the shooter--after tossing the assassination rifle near the stairwell--ran down the stairs to the fifth, and then took the open west elevator on down. 

Pat,

This is a little off topic but:

I suspect you have already thought this through, but if (as you've speculated elsewhere) Shelley and Lovelady arrived back in the TSBD from the west entrance within a minute or so and if they saw Eddie Piper walking from the front toward the middle of the first floor, then isn't it possible that Baker and Truly did not arrive back at the freight elevators quite as quickly as we've been led to believe? 

(I'm not suggesting the Baker/Truly timeline is grossly in error here, merely that it may be a little longer, perhaps because it is incomplete.)

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Who described Dougherty as "retarded?"

And why?

"Retarded" is not the way Truly put it. But clearly Truly wanted to convey that all was not quite right with Dougherty.

Why?

Well, if (IF) Dougherty really did come face-to-face with an escaping assassin on the first floor when the west freight elevator opened (before Dougherty went back upstairs), then Dougherty's credibility would need massaging. 

Especially since Dougherty told Ball in his WC testimony that Shelley told Dougherty that Shelley had seen "Oswald" that morning with a large package in his hands. Of course, no one ever saw "Oswald" with a large package - Shelley lied to Dougherty. 

And the kicker is that when Ball questioned Shelley later, Ball DID NOT ASK SHELLEY ONE THING ABOUT THAT SHELLEY'S LIE TO DOUGHERTY!

So Joe, tell me: why did Shelley lie to Dougherty and why didn't Ball dare ask about that lie?

Here is Roy Truly's sworn description about Dougherty:

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hardworking employee. He always has been.
Mr. BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Here is Dougherty's own testimony to the Warren Commission. Note how disjointed and confused Dougherty is about even the simplest things. It's worth reading in full:

History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VI, pg (history-matters.com)

4 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Well done, Gil.

Thanks for posting.