Paul Jolliffe

11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

In all this discussion about the TSBD and possible assassin(s) therein, do any of the posters believe that the shot that Killed JFK came from that location? 

Paul,

It seems highly probable that a sniper team was in the sixth floor SE corner window of the TSBD. Were any shots actually fired from that location? I don't know - it is possible, I suppose. A rifle was found later on the sixth floor, but whether it was really the notorious MC Italian rifle is another question. 

Many researchers have long mused that the sixth floor team was meant to pose (hang out a window) with a rifle before, during and briefly after the assassination. Given their obvious visibility to witnesses on the ground before the shooting, that scenario seems pretty likely.

In any event, the medical and photographic evidence seems to indicate strongly that at least one shot struck the president in the head from the front. 

16 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Baker said he wasn't sure if the shots came from the building. He just knew he could get a good look from the roof. Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building. He also tells Piper to guard the back door. He runs with Baker up to the second floor. Baker stops to get a look at Oswald. Truly gives Oswald the OK. They then proceed up to the fifth, take the elevator to the seventh, and go up on the roof. At this point neither of them have reason to suspect Oswald. As Truly comes down moreover he sees Dougherty working and assumes it was Dougherty who rode the elevator down as they ran up. Soon thereafter the Dallas police officers and county sheriffs, who had almost universally raced to the train yards, race into the building, searching for the shooter they assume is hiding in the building. Serious attention is paid to the seventh floor, which is dark and has a small room in the corner. They send out for lights. After 20 minutes or so of this chaos, Mooney finds the sniper's nest on the sixth floor and another 10 minutes or so pass before Fritz comes up and begins the search for the rifle. Boone finds it 10 minutes later. It would only now dawn on Truly that Oswald may have been the shooter. Either he goes looking for him, or is told Oswald is missing, and this alarms him to the extent he tells Fritz. It is more than an hour after the shooting.

 

Pat, 

In Truly's own words (under oath) he swore that he both noticed and acted on "Oswald's" absence within "moments or minutes" after arriving back on the first floor with Baker. Truly did this even though he did not know where all of "his boys" were at that moment. Some were missing, and he knew that, but he was concerned with and acted only because of "Oswald."

Truly did not wait an hour - he was determined to act within "moments or minutes". And since he estimated that he and Baker had arrived back on the first floor withing five to ten minutes of their ascent, then it follows that Truly had "noticed" "Oswald's" absence by 12:40 or so. 

Long before Fritz was notified.

Even before Inspector Sawyer's infamous 12:45 suspect description call to the DPD dispatchers. 

As early as 12:40, according to his own testimony, Roy Truly was concerned only with "Oswald."

Why?

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

He's not. While it's impossible to work it all out, it appears that Dougherty was confused in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Perhaps then he didn't understand what Shelley told him and just went back to work. No one said they saw him by the elevator, and the only contact with the police (or FBI) Dougherty would cop to was a good deal later--when he went up to the sixth floor looking for Truly. Assuming Dougherty went back to work, then, we can assume he got up to the sixth floor at 12:35 or so. He then went down to the fifth at say 12:37. At such time he heard a loud sound above him that was actually Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. I believe they said they saw Sawyer as they came down--and I think Sawyer ran back outside at 12:37 or so...

But that's me just going off the top of my head... 

 

Pat,

I tend to agree with your theory that the west freight elevator was very possibly an escape route for at least one of the upper floor conspirators. I agree that if Jack Dougherty was actually on the first floor in the bathroom at the time of the assassination, then he must have ridden an elevator up to the fifth floor in order to be seen by Truly later. If so, then as I pointed out before, Dougherty almost certainly came face-to-face with at least one escaping conspirator when the elevator opened on the first floor. 

For you and everyone else here, is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were actually locked in place on the fifth floor, other than Roy Truly's say-so?

Truly looked up the elevator shaft and claimed to see that both elevators were on the SAME floor. Is it possible that he was mistaken (or something else) and that the west freight elevator was actually locked on the sixth floor? 

Is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were on the fifth floor at the same time before the assassination? If not, then how did an escaping assassin get on the fifth floor elevator without being seen or heard by Junior Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman? If those three really ran down the stairs before an escaping assassin arrived on the fifth floor, then how did Jarman, Williams and Norman elude Truly and Baker? 

I suspect Jarman, Williams and Norman did not immediately leave the fifth floor, but instead lingered for a little bit. 

So how did they miss an assassin using the west freight elevator, if that elevator really was on the fifth floor the whole time? 

Somebody took the elevator down. But from which floor?

By the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, that west freight elevator wasn't there. 

Beyond Truly's statement, how do we know it was really on the fifth floor to begin with?

(Was it actually on the sixth floor the whole time, locked in place until needed for the sixth floor assassins?)

Just now, Paul Jolliffe said:

It is impossible to say for certain whether this man in New Orleans is William Hoyt Shelley of TSBD fame, but either way, it is beyond doubt that our man "Oswald" was in the immediate presence in two different cities (Dallas and New Orleans) of a man who greatly resembled Shelley. 

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Isn't there is a photo that shows someone who greatly resembles Shelley with Oswald handing out his leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart? Could someone post that photo?

5 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

It wasn't a short time. There seems to be some confusion on the timeline. As I recall Truly went up to Fritz as he was leaving the building. That was 1:45 or after, right? So he had an hour to figure out Oswald was missing.

I also seem to recall that Jarman said something about this to the HSCA--that he had pointed out Oswald's absence to Truly. But, unfortunately, my copy of the transcript is too blurry to read. 

Pat,

You and I agree that Truly may not have notified Fritz until roughly an hour had passed. But that's not the point.

The key point is that Truly had made the decision very, very quickly to identify "Oswald", and "Oswald" alone, as a suspect. Even at a time when he, Truly, knew that some other of "his boys" were missing! 

He said it!

He knew others were missing, yet he went after "Oswald" only!

Read his own words. (Cited in post above.)  Truly said he believed "Oswald" was missing within minutes (or maybe "moments") of returning to the first floor. He said he consulted Shelley and Campbell and then "It was so quick after that." 

How did Truly come to suspect only "Oswald" so soon, long before Truly later talked to Fritz?

4 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Wonder at what point in the police questioning of the employees Jarman, Williams and Norman may have told their police questioners they actually heard the rifle blasts and falling shells directly above their heads on the 6th floor?

If I was a police questioner I would have pulled them in for much more detailed questioning right there. No other TXSCB employees were in a location so close to the shooter.

Where they taken to police headquarters?

Joe,

Here is a picture of Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and William Shelley entering a squad car. I don't know exactly the time. 

What is curious to me is that Bonnie Ray Williams first day statement said nothing about being on the sixth floor around 12:00 noon. It was only AFTER Wiliams was interviewed by the FBI did the sixth floor scenario emerge.

On 10/20/2022 at 5:48 PM, Roger Odisio said:

Whoa, Ben.

They had to kill Oswald and fast because they couldn't let him get a lawyer to respond to their clumsy and criminal attempt to frame him.  They certainly couldn't let their non-case go to trial.  IF he knew anything about what they did, they couldn't let him expose that either.

Side note:  Salandria said he watched that first weekend to see if Oswald survived.  If he didn't that would be his first clue as to who did it. 

I agree, Roger.

Harold Weisberg once told me the same thing - namely he claimed he had told his wife before "Oswald" was shot that the case was being "railroaded" (Weisberg's term.)

3 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

Truly admitted under oath that he did not know the whereabouts of all of "his boys":

"Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not . . ."

So why "Oswald", especially within "moments or minutes"?

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

And the answer remains: Because he'd seen Oswald a few minutes before, and that Oswald had left afterwards. No one else had done so. 

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

Forgive me everyone for belaboring this point, but I just don't see how anyone can read the relevant portions of Roy Truly's WC testimony and not suspect that Truly had a hidden agenda.

As Truly himself said, he singled out "Oswald" not because he was the only one missing, but because as soon as Truly returned to the first floor ("it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that"), "Oswald" was the only one "that I could be certain right then was missing."

How Roy?

How could you be "certain"?

Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.
Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?
Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

38 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd last observed before he went up to the roof. Oswald's no longer being there was suspicious, while the others? Not so much. It is telling, moreover, that the DPD put out an APB on Givens. This supports that they were concerned about male warehouse workers who did not return after lunch. Oswald was even more suspicious. He'd left after the shooting.

What is revealing per se about all this is not that they focused on Oswald but that the media and Oswald-did-it crowd pushed for decades that they focused on Oswald because he was the ONLY employee who was missing. This wasn't exactly true. It was a shortcut to what was true--that he was the only one known to be in the building was missing. But it got repeated for decades because those anxious to blame Oswald are also anxious to reduce nuance and detail. There is a desperate desire to paint this whole thing as black and white. And that says more about themselves than it does about what happened.

(Other common shortcuts: Oswald was a commie, and commies hate capitalists. Oswald was a wife-beater, and wife-beaters are vicious beasts. Oswald was a nobody, who was anxious to make a name for himself. Oswald was a loser, who hated men of class and privilege. The use of these shortcuts, IMO, is not necessarily the mark of a low intellect, so much as it is a sign of a lack of curiosity, and courage). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pat Speer said: "Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd (Roy Truly) last observed before he went up to the roof."

"Oswald" was not the last employee Truly passed before he and Baker went to the roof of the TSBD. We all agree that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker as they came up to the fourth floor. If he missed her because he was intent on getting to the roof as quickly as possible, then how could he know who was or was not on the upper floors?  There were several employees, male and female, on the fourth floor.  We all agree (I think) that Williams, Jarman and Norman were on the fifth floor. (Whether Bonnie Ray Williams was ever on the sixth floor after 12:00 noon is doubtful, but that's another topic.)

While racing up the stairs with Baker, Truly may or may not have observed any of them on the upper floors of the TSBD, but they were there, and Truly had good reason to believe they were there: he was the supervisor of the TSBD. 

By his own admission, Truly had not done made a thorough accounting of each and every possible male employee at the time he decided to alert the DPD to "Oswald's" absence. 

My question remains: at a time when Truly knew there were many people on the upper floors of the TSBD, not all of whom could he account for, why did he single out "Oswald"?

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I would just like to add something of note here.

I am an admirer of Bart Kamp.  And his work on the second floor encounter is utterly first rate.  There are real and solid reasons to doubt it occurred. And I brought this up in The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today.  

But one of the guidelines of criticism of any sort--books, plays, films--is that you determine the author's intent and then evaluate and analyze if he has achieved it and how he did or did not.  

RIch Negrete's intent is pretty clear.  He is out to make a visual translation of what happened to Vicki Adams and her cohorts after the assassination.  (He does bring in a couple of other matters--like Dolce--but this is just briefly.). He uses mounds of evidence  to show that there was a cover up of what they saw and heard, and why it occurred.  He then proves that the evidence of these three women is quite convincing on the matter that Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting, and therefore he could not have done what the Commission said he did.

The second floor lunch encounter is a whole different matter that I think is not under Negrete's scope.  His work does not impact that issue--which I think is even more complex than this one.  IMO, they are not related. We treated the subject in Oliver Stone's film as well, we did not get into the second floor encounter. 

Well said, Jim.

We are all (well, most of us here, anyway) in danger of getting derailed when the real point is simple: Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were on the stairs at a time when "Oswald" also had to have been on the stairs. They neither saw nor heard him. 

He wasn't there. 

And because the Warren Commission weasels (oops) "lawyers" went to enormous lengths to cover that up, they could then promote their false "solution" to the assassination. 

A politically expedient "solution" that satisfied all major powers in Washington, D.C., regardless of whether any were active conspirators or not.  

16 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The employees were all milling around so they could be released and Truly realized that Oswald--who he had just seen--was now missing. So he told the police they should check him out. It's not exactly suspicious. 

 

But Pat,

By Truly's own admission, he had not made a complete check of his employees. He did not know who was and who was not "milling around" and who was actually missing. He cleared Charles Givens because Truly had seen him shortly before the shots, walking on Elm. So why didn't he clear our "Oswald" with whom he had just (supposedly) had a memorable encounter on the second floor, far from the sniper's nest?

Truly singled out "Oswald" at a time when he admitted he did not know who was and who was not accounted for. 

Why?

2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Couldn't resist weighing in here David ... I agree with Bill Fite that everyone in the buildings around Dealy Plaza (and all individuals in the Plaza for that matter) should have been detained, identified and/or questioned.  We are talking about the shooting of the American President ... with copious amounts of law enforcement presence - DPD, sheriffs, military, Secret Service, perhaps some FBI - many of whom were quickly converging upon the TSBD.  And initial suspicions are that shots came from the TSBD ... yet answering 'yes' to "does this man work here?" was a satisfactory response to leaving the building.  Just imagine that happening today.  This was no ordinary murder, with little or no police presence. Your rationalization of the world not being perfect doesn't pass the red-faced test; something's obviously wrong with this picture.  The TSBD building should've been immediately locked down and secured, with no one allowed to leave.  Same for the railroad yards, Knoll area, parking lots, Dal Tex Bldg. and other nearby locations. 

DPD Officer Marrion Baker:  I was on a motorcycle behind the LBJ limo.  I was on Houston Street when I heard the shots, and I was pretty certain the shots came from the roof of the TSBD building, so I sped to the front door and parked at the curb and ran inside.  I demanded to know where the elevators were, and Roy Truly came up to help me.  I think it was no more than two minutes after the JFK assassination that we were on the 2nd floor when I saw Lee Oswald, and I shouted, “Hey, you!  Come here!”  Oswald saw me and my gun and he came walking cool and calm.  I asked Roy Truly, “Do you know this man?” and Truly said, “Yes, he works here.”  So, without another word we kept trotting up the stairs to the roof.  I searched all around roof.  I figure my whole TSBD search took about 15 minutes.  On our way down I saw Lieutenant Cunningham just coming up.

But shortly thereafter, Roy Truly shares that one of his boys is missing: 

Mr. TRULY: We have a man here that’s missing.” I said, “It may not mean anything, but he isn’t here.” I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get-quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be. Mr. BALL: Was he the only man missing? Mr. TRULY: The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens ... and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn’t among the other workers."

Eventually, the TSBD building is secured:

DPD Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer: Around 12:34 the DPD Radio dispatcher said a passerby identified the TSBD as the source of the shots.  So, I sped to the TSBD. and parked my car in front of the main entrance, and some officers there told me they thought some shots came from the top floors.  Then an employee and two officers took me to the top floor.  This was about 12:37pm.  We looked around but found nothing.  Then I came back downstairs with my two men to ensure the building was sealed off properly.  I posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.  I also had Sergeant Harkness ensure the rear entrances were covered; they already were, but I said double-check.  There were already officers out front, but I gave official orders that nobody was to go in or out without full screening.  Sergeant Harkness soon told me that he had the building sealed off.  That would have been about 12:40pm.  Then I set up a Command Post out front.  Now, at 12:43 I called the DPD dispatcher and said: “We need more manpower down here at the TSBD; tell those on Main Street to come here.”  

Gene,

What has always seemed bizarre at best (or deeply conspiratorial at worst) was Truly's behavior right then: Roy Truly himself had just cleared "Oswald" (supposedly) if we believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story.

So why did Truly within just a matter of a few minutes - WITHOUT A COMPLETE "ROLL CALL"! - decide that "Oswald" should be a suspect in the eyes of the Dallas Police?

We are expected to believe that Truly decided within 10 -12 minutes after seeing "Oswald" in the lunchroom (allegedly) that Truly asked Mr. Akin in the records department to find "Oswald's" home address so he, Truly, could give it to the DPD. 

Why?

So he "could be more accurate than I otherwise would be."

WTF?

Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.
Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No."

Roy Truly, you (allegedly) just vouched for him on the second floor! So why in the world did you point the finger at him just a very few minutes later, long before you knew for certain which of your employees were or were not still present, milling about in the crowd?

Personally, I strongly suspect Truly was involved up to his eyeballs in setting up our "Oswald".

9 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

I think the better question, Greg, is not would they lie, but why would they tell that lie.

It seems a lot of today's researchers don't know their history. For decades the lunchroom encounter (the timing of, and Oswald's cool demeanor) was first and foremost in arguments for Oswald's innocence. IF it was a lie, it only follows, it  should have been a much better lie, a much more useful lie. 

Here, I'll give it a try. Instead of saying they saw Oswald on the second floor, Baker and Truly say they saw him on the fifth, finishing up an order. That puts him closer to the sixth floor--destroying all the timing questions--AND has the added benefit of providing Baker and Truly with a logical reason for not detaining him. (The guy was working for chrissakes!) It also rids the WC of the Vickie Adams problem. (Well, Oswald ambled down and out after Vickie left the stairs, you see.) 

I'm sure you could come up with an even better one.

Lies are told to push a chosen scenario. (Your radar gun must be defective, officer, because I was only going 55) To tell a lie that suggests an undesired scenario (I know you say I was going 80 but I am certain I was only going 77) is counter-productive and S-T-U-P-I-D. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pat,

A possible simple answer is that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter lie was the best they could do under the circumstances.

I agree that placing our "Oswald" up on the 5th or 6th floor would have been much better, but Bart Kamp posited that this story was needed to cover an actual encounter with "Oswald" on the . . . first floor.

"Oswald" seemed to verify during the DPD interrogations that he was confronted by a cop somewhere at some point inside the TSBD. (Whether it was really Baker, in this scenario, is unknown.)

If, as we all suspect (except DVP) "Oswald" was nowhere near the sixth floor during the JFKA, then he probably was on the first floor eating lunch. Was he "Prayerman"? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. 

Did Roy Truly lie his eyes out about the 2nd floor? Very possibly. 

Was Marion Baker unable even as late as September 1964, to keep the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story straight?

Absolutely. 

Personally, I am inclined to take Sandy's question seriously. I think there really is a good chance it never happened that way.

For what it's worth, the late Harold Weisberg told me in 1992 that he did not believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter happened the way the Warren Commission portrayed it. Back then, I was too ignorant and naive to appreciate fully what he meant. 

Now, I am (a little) wiser. 

16 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

So you think that to discredit Adams the WC lied about S+L's timing rather than simply changing Adam's statement.  If they had what they wanted from Adams right away, why did they return to her repeatedly?  Why did they send big Jim Leavelle to harass her the same day she had moved into a new apartment using her roommate's name (indicating clearly to her they were following her)?  Why did the 6 page letter Adams wrote in the afternoon of the murder detailing everything that happened, never reach it's destination (indicating the extent of the surveillance of her)?   Why, if she mentioned seeing S&L in the letter, which she probably would have done given the level of detail in it? 

What do you make of Styles vehement corroboration of Adams to Ernest, saying that S+L were definitely *not*  on the first floor when they arrived?  Which you have left out of your scenario. Why would she say that if it wasn't true?   

Yes, absolutely I think the WC lengthened the time in which Shelley and Lovelady arrived at the back of the TSBD. Why? Because no one could get Victoria Adams to back down in her (true!) assertion that she and Sandra Styles started down the stairs very soon after the shots. 

Was Jim Leavelle sent to try to intimidate her into changing her timeline?

Absolutely. But it didn't work. She was adamant that she and Styles descended the stairs immediately after the shots. 

As far as Sandra Styles declaration to Barry Ernest forty years later, she may well be telling the truth: she did not see Shelley or Lovelady. But that does not necessarily mean they were not nearby. Neither does it mean that Adams could not have noticed them. It just means Styles did not see them.

As to Adams' missing 1963 letter detailing her movements that day, well, it could have been swiped by the FBI, but I doubt it. It is very hard to steal an outgoing letter - the surveillance required to intercept incoming mail is easy, but almost impossible on an outgoing letter. How could the FBI have known in advance what she was going to put on paper, let alone when and where she might post it, if at all?

Did it get lost in the mail? 

I don't know, but since we don't have it, it doesn't matter - we don't know what she wrote. 

This really isn't that hard, Roger: the WC had to crack Adams one way or another and getting Shelley and Lovelady to stretch their timelines was it. 

Therefore, because Adams was brave and truthful (and stubborn), the WC had no choice but to find other, more malleable witnesses. Ergo the changing timeframes of Shelley and Lovelady.

4 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Well, we will have to disagree on this minor point.

The evidence shows that Victoria Adams did claim to have seen Shelley and Lovelady - she marked up and corrected her own transcript in which she said exactly that in 1964. She made no corrections nor objections to her transcript in which she said that!

Anyway, I do NOT accept as "fact" that Shelley and Lovelady took 5 - 10 minutes to return to the back of the TSBD.

You do. OK, that's your prerogative. 

But I see no reason to believe that - their first day statements belie that timeline, they changed stories repeatedly in 1964 and Lovelady's garbled admission to the HSCA in 1978 about seeing Truly and Baker seems to undermine that, too.

I think they got to the back of the TSBD within about a minute or so. 

I am convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were pressured to change (lengthen) their estimates so as to damage Victoria Adams' credibility. That is exactly what the gradual change in their own stories would indicate. 

Anyway, as Pat Speer already pointed out in this very thread, Shelley and Lovelady could well have walked at a fast pace around the south side of the TSBD and up to the west side entrance in time to be adjacent to freight elevators before Baker and Truly arrived. Such a walk could have been done in less than a minute.

If that is correct, and I believe it is, then the timing is perfect - Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor the stairs just seconds after Shelley and Lovelady. Adams and Styles then leave just moments before Truly and Baker arrive.

Truly notices "two white men", but the Warren Commission doesn't dare follow up,

Why not?

Because further investigation would have (almost certainly) revealed that the two men were indeed Shelley and Lovelady, just as Victoria Adams claimed. Their immediate presence would have buttressed her credibility, not undermined it.

And supporting Victoria Adams and her timeline would have destroyed the Warren Commission's false "solution".

 

 

"Baker" not "Truly" noticed the two white men by the elevator. Typo. 

10 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

But Paul.  You believe Adams when she said she left the 4th floor immediately after the shots.  You estimate that means 15-30 seconds.  We *know* S+L stayed outside after the shots and did not return inside the building for about 5 minutes.  Adams and Styles had passed thru the first floor on the way out the back door several minutes before that.  Therefore we know, and you must believe, Adams did not see S+L on the first floor at that time.  According to Ernest, Styles vehemently verified that they didn't see S+L when he asked her about it.

That Adams and Styles did not see S+L when they reached the first floor is a fact if you believe Adam's sense of timing as you say you do (and as I do).  About as clear of a fact as there is in this whole case.

When confronted with Adams testimony, the WC was desperate to discredit her.  Claiming that Adams said she saw S+L when she reached the first floor, and thus was mistaken about her timing estimate, giving Oswald time to slip by the 4th floor unnoticed,  was the *only* thing they cited to do that.  Another fact.  

So, no, it is *not* possible to believe "that Victoria Adams both destroyed the WC's 'solution' and that she really did see Shelley and Lovelady when she came down" the steps.  If she did see S+L and said so, she buttressed the WCs case; she did not destroy it.  Which is why staff inserted that lie in her testimony in the first place.

You're worried about why Adams didn't try to correct that part of her published testimony.  I urge you to read, if you haven't already, a piece by Flip De Mey, published on Apr24, 2017, entitled "Was a Dorothy Garner deposition destroyed?" (It's on his website, flipdemeycom under "news" with the title Oswald's Alibi). It details what the 4th floor women went thru, and in particular the sleazy method the WC used to gather information to frame Oswald by collecting what would help their fabrication while changing, destroying or lying about exculpatory information.  

Adams was questioned repeatedly after her first deposition and always about the trip down the steps.  They were obviously trying to intimidate her to get her to change her story.  The most blatant was the visit to her apartment in Feb. '64 by Leavelle.  It was in his report, not included in Warren volumes, that the lie she said she saw S+L first appeared. 

It's pretty amazing what Adams as a young women went thru to stick to her story thru the threats and intimidation she got.  She tried to get away from it all and we never would have known many of the details had Ernest not tracked her down.  You must consider the atmosphere of intimidation and repression created at the time when questioning why Adams did or didn't do something.

Or consider what she told Ernest when they talked about her testimony.  "It really didn't dawn on me that my actions were pertinent to anything until  much later".

Well, we will have to disagree on this minor point.

The evidence shows that Victoria Adams did claim to have seen Shelley and Lovelady - she marked up and corrected her own transcript in which she said exactly that in 1964. She made no corrections nor objections to her transcript in which she said that!

Anyway, I do NOT accept as "fact" that Shelley and Lovelady took 5 - 10 minutes to return to the back of the TSBD.

You do. OK, that's your prerogative. 

But I see no reason to believe that - their first day statements belie that timeline, they changed stories repeatedly in 1964 and Lovelady's garbled admission to the HSCA in 1978 about seeing Truly and Baker seems to undermine that, too.

I think they got to the back of the TSBD within about a minute or so. 

I am convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were pressured to change (lengthen) their estimates so as to damage Victoria Adams' credibility. That is exactly what the gradual change in their own stories would indicate. 

Anyway, as Pat Speer already pointed out in this very thread, Shelley and Lovelady could well have walked at a fast pace around the south side of the TSBD and up to the west side entrance in time to be adjacent to freight elevators before Baker and Truly arrived. Such a walk could have been done in less than a minute.

If that is correct, and I believe it is, then the timing is perfect - Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor the stairs just seconds after Shelley and Lovelady. Adams and Styles then leave just moments before Truly and Baker arrive.

Truly notices "two white men", but the Warren Commission doesn't dare follow up,

Why not?

Because further investigation would have (almost certainly) revealed that the two men were indeed Shelley and Lovelady, just as Victoria Adams claimed. Their immediate presence would have buttressed her credibility, not undermined it.

And supporting Victoria Adams and her timeline would have destroyed the Warren Commission's false "solution".

8 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

We know S+L were not back on the first floor until roughly 5 minutes after the shooting.  Adams was always consistent about her leaving the 4th floor quickly after the shooting and running down the stairs which would have gotten her on the first floor and out the back much before that.  In fact, the afternoon of the shooting she wrote out 6 pages of detail about what happened that day and mailed it to the editor of a Catholic newspaper she trusted in San Francisco.  That would have helped clear this up.  Surprise! it never reached him.  Surveillance of her was tight.  They knew how important to the survival of their fabrication she was.

Jim Leavelle showed up in Feb '64 at an apartment Adams had just moved to using a roommate's name  (surveillance again) to try to intimidate her, claiming all records had been burned and she needed to be reinterviewed  (a laughable claim).  He wrote in his report that she said she saw S&L upon reaching the first floor.  I believe that was the first time that lie appeared, probably a dry run for its inclusion in the WR or to set it up for later attribution.

When Ernest talked to Styles, he told her Adams' testimony said S+L were on the first floor when she and Adams arrived.  "I can't imagine why Vicki would say that, if she did" Styles said. S+L "definitely weren't there".

Claiming Adams said she and Styles saw S+L on the first floor was the only "evidence" the WR used to discredit Adams' story.  It was one of many lies the criminals running the "investigation" told.

Bottom line:  It's not possible to believe Adams account and also believe the WR claim she said she saw S+L when she got to the first floor.

 

Roger,

You and I and almost everyone else here all agree that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles came down the stairs very soon (within a matter of 30 seconds or so) after the shots were fired, and that this presented a major (if not completely insurmountable) timing problem for the Warren Commission.

Their only real chance of keeping their false "solution" alive was to discredit Adams (and ignore Styles and Garner.) 

But Roger, she really did testify in 1964 that she saw Shelley and Lovelady. If this is not so, then she said nothing for four decades about what the Warren Commission printed in Volume 6, page 389 and 390 of her testimony in 1964:

John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage :: Warren Commission :: Hearings :: Volume VI :: Page 389 (jfk-assassination.eu)

Roger, we all know the Warren Commission destroyed the original steno tape. But so what? They published this version of her testimony in 1964!

And Victoria Adams had no problem with it - she even hand-corrected and initialed the original stenographic typewritten transcript of her own testimony in 1964. In short, she acknowledged in 1964 that she really had seen Shelley and Lovelady at the foot of the stairs as soon as she came down. 

If this was all a big lie by the Warren Commission, then it was incumbent on Barry Ernest forty years later to confront her with her with that copy of her own testimony with her own handwriting on it.

But he did not do so. He let her off the hook.

I like Barry Ernest and I admire the hard work he did. But he did not force her to deny her own handwritten corrections on her own testimony - probably because he was just too nice a guy.

So you and I will have to disagree on your last point - it certainly is possible to believe that Victoria Adams both destroyed the WC's "solution" and that she really did see Shelley and Lovelady when she came down, just as the WC quoted her in sworn testimony first published in 1964. 

On 10/17/2022 at 7:03 AM, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I have been thinking about that one, the only thing I can come up with would be like "hearsay" ?  But the WC had been directing an leading all-the-way... so it would not have stopped them to at least explore it.  If Shelley could confirm thàt, they had the case in their pocket*  So many strange things, and even more questions never asked...  frustrating...

*Or... have Shelley sit in the room next to Wesley and Linnie, also taping bags... 

Jean Paul,

I believe that Ball's failure to ask Shelley about Dougherty's statement (about Shelley's alleged claim that "Oswald" brought a large package to work) was deliberate and very careful.

Many of us here suspect that Shelley played some role in setting up "Oswald" on at least some level. Ball may have been aware of similar suspicions and was not going there. Further, it is impossible that Dougherty made up that story out of the blue. It is highly likely that Shelley did indeed belatedly tell Dougherty about "Oswald's package".  (This is NOT to say that Shelley told Dougherty the truth.)

No. I think it is probable that Shelley lied to Dougherty to keep Dougherty in line, so to speak. If, as Pat Speer has demonstrated, at least one conspirator left the upper floors by way of the west freight elevator, while Dougherty really was on the first floor waiting to take an elevator up to go back to work, then it is almost certain that Jack Dougherty came face-to-face with an escaping assassin. 

Dougherty may or may not have been mildly retarded. But even so, he needed to be "reminded" of "Oswald's" guilt - and Shelley's belated remark to him would have been just the thing. 

But Ball didn't dare ask Shelley about "Oswald's" package because it never existed. "Oswald" did not enter the TSBD that morning with anything in his hands. Jack Dougherty himself said so!  No one saw him in the TSBD on that day or ever with anything resembling the infamous rifle bag. (Troy West explicitly denied that it was even theoretically possible for "Oswald" or anyone else to have constructed such a bag.)

If Ball had asked Shelley about Dougherty's statement, it is highly probable that Shelley would have perjured himself.

But Ball was stuck - he knew it wasn't true. And if he, Ball, took that testimony then he himself was guilty of suborning perjury, and risked disbarment!

Therefore Ball took the only out available to him - he did not ask Shelley about it. 

On 10/16/2022 at 11:42 AM, Roger Odisio said:

Stunning list, Pat.  But there is a bigger lie buried in there.  We now know Vicki Adams never said she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor when she got there.  That was fabricated by the WC to discredit her.  In fact she hadn't know the WR said that and when shown by Ernest, she explicitly said she did *not* she them at that time on the first floor. 

Roger,

I'm not sold on that.

Yes, she explicitly told Barry Ernest 40 years after the fact that she did not see Shelley and Lovelady, and she now claimed that she never did, but consider:

She did mark up in 1964 the extant transcript of her testimony in which she was quoted about seeing Shelley and Lovelady. I have great regard for Barry Ernest, but honestly, he should have made her explain the 1964 transcript, the one with her handwriting on it. If it wasn't her handwriting, he should have made her say so. He did not. 

After all, her testimony had been part of the public record since 1964, and she never once told anyone the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was a complete lie by the WC until four decades later. 

She thought the WC disbelieved her because of the Shelley/Lovelady bit. What she didn't realize was that they were going to discredit her no matter what she said. For decades she stewed over the Shelley/Lovelady thing, unaware it was a red herring. After forty years, she'd convinced herself she'd never said it. 

On that minor point I think she was mistaken, but it doesn't really make much difference: we all agree that the WC was desperate to discredit her by any means necessary because their "solution" was to pin it all on "Oswald". And Victoria Adams (and Sandra Styles, and Dorothy Garner) stood in their way. 

1 minute ago, Tony Krome said:

More focus should be on whether Rowland's man could be Baker's man. A straight shot from the 4th floor stairs/elevator area is the 4th floor passenger elevator. Then we have Sawyer's mystery man nearby the passenger elevator on the 1st floor.

Yeah, I have long suspected that the WC failure to question Inspector Sawyer about the man exiting the passenger elevator as he, Sawyer, rushed in was a deliberate failure to pursue a lead. 

After all, Sawyer is in the building very quickly, and some unknown male is leaving the passenger elevator from an upper floor at that very moment. If that was an innocent employee, the WC would have tasked the FBI with tracking that man.

But the WC ignored this mystery man instead. 

Which leads to my own theory about the escape of the two sixth - floor conspirators: one took the west freight elevator down, and the other took the passenger elevator from the fourth floor down. (Now how that conspirator got to the fourth - floor passenger elevator on the east side of the TSBD is a topic for another thread.)

On 10/16/2022 at 6:23 AM, Pat Speer said:

At one point, I absorbed all the testimony regarding what happened in the building and noticed a disgusting pattern.

From patspeer.com, Chapter 4:

 

A Quick Review: the Suspicious Omissions (and Commissions, with a Few New Additions) in Chronological Order

From reviewing the suspicious omissions, and placing them in chronological order, one can get a sense of where the Commission went astray. It went astray because it wasn't willing to get it right. It seems clear, moreover, that, prior to taking any testimony, Messieurs Ball and Belin had already decided to push a scenario in which Oswald stayed upstairs during lunchtime and raced downstairs after the shooting, and Jack Dougherty rode the elevator from the fifth floor on down as Baker and Truly raced up the stairs to the fifth floor.

12-20-63. The FBI omits from a report on an interview with Eddie Piper that Piper feels certain he saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:00.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Arnold to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 11-26-63 that she believed she saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:15.

March 64--September 64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Walther to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 12-4-63 that she saw a man with a rifle on an upper floor of the school book depository, and that there was another man behind him, to his left.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Lillian Mooneyham to testify, even though she told the FBI on 1-8-64 that she saw a man standing in the sniper's nest at a time the Commission presumes Oswald to have been running down the back stairs.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Sandra Styles to testify, even though she could confirm Vickie Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting and didn't see Oswald.

March 1964--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on the Secret Service's interviews of Pierce Allman and Terry Ford, in which they placed themselves near the back of the building at the time the commission presumed Adams and Styles had raced down the back stairs.

3-11-64. In a desperate attempt at getting them to change their recollection of the size of the bag they saw Oswald carrying on the morning of the 22nd (which they remembered as being too small to hold the rifle found in the school book depository) Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks Buell Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle to hold their hands apart to demonstrate the length of the bag. He then asks them to do this again, and again, at least ten times, according to Frazier, giving them the feeling he won't stop asking until they lie and tell him the bag was longer than they believed it was.

3-24-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to follow up with witness Harold Norman and find out how his not playing dominoes at lunch made him think someone else was in the room--an inquiry that would almost certainly have led to Norman's saying he thought this someone else was Oswald.

3-24-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to point out during testimony or subsequently acknowledge that James Jarman and Harold Norman's claim they re-entered the building via the back door towards the end of their lunch time supported Oswald's claim he'd been sitting in a room with a view of the back door area during lunch time, and had observed Jarman and Norman.

3-25-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on Officer Marrion Baker's claim he saw two white men by the elevators when he came into the building with Oswald's boss Roy Truly, at a time when no white men besides Baker and Truly were known to be on the first floor.

4-1-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin argues with witness Ronald Fischer about the color of the hair of the man Fischer saw staring out the window of the sniper's nest. According to Fischer, Belin tries to "intimidate" him, because Oswald's hair was not as light as the hair of the man Fischer saw, and he "wanted me to tell him that the man was dark-headed and I wouldn't do it." (Note: this was detailed in a December 1978 Dallas Morning News article by Earl Golz.)

4-7-64--Warren Commission attorney David Belin shows Vickie Adams a diagram of the first floor depicting where she claimed she saw Lovelady and Shelley, but fails to enter this diagram into evidence.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Billy Lovelady any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks William Shelley if he saw Roy Truly enter the depository building, but fails to ask him the more important question if he saw Truly and officer Baker by the elevators, and whether or not he could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask William Shelley any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission's diagrams for the first floor of the school book depository strangely fail to include the west loading dock, through which Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building, which was presumably left unsecured for some time after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to interview Gloria Calvery and re-enact the actions of William Shelley and Billy Lovelady after the shooting (in order to develop a timeline for Shelley and Lovelady's return to the building, which is essential to their assessing the credibility of Vickie Adams), even though Ball and Belin know from their testimony that Shelley and Lovelady's sense of time for the moments immediately following the shooting are at odds with the re-enactments Ball and Belin had already performed.

4-7-64--September 1964. Ball and Belin fail to consult newsreel footage which could help them establish the timing of Shelley and Lovelady's walk around the building, which could, in turn, help them establish the credibility of Vickie Adams' claim she ran down the back stairs just after the shooting, and saw Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Joe Molina about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect he would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Mrs. Avery Davis about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect she would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and establish the identity of a policeman observed by Vickie Adams just after the shooting, even though the identification of this policeman could help the Commission establish the veracity of Miss Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting, and didn't see Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and clarify the record when Charles Givens testifies to leaving his coat in the domino room upon his arrival at work, but then going back up to the sixth floor to get his jacket after everyone else had left for lunch--a brand new addition to Givens' story that allowed Belin and the Commission to place Oswald in the proximity of the sniper's nest shortly before the shooting.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to point out in testimony or subsequently acknowledge that Givens' new story was in conflict with both his previous recollections, and that of his co-workers.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin goes against the precedent established during the testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams and others and allows Charles Givens to dispute the claims of an FBI report--without putting the source of these claims on the record.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to follow-up with Givens' 11-22-63 lunch partner, Edward Shields, to see if he will confirm Givens' claim he saw Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin, the man behind a number of re-enactments, fails to re-enact Givens' purported sighting of Oswald, to see if Givens could actually have seen Oswald where he said he saw him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper where on the first floor he saw Oswald at 12:00, and thereby conceals from the Commission and public that Piper felt certain he saw Oswald just where Oswald said he was during the lunch period--in the domino room.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper about his discussion with Jack Dougherty, something that was desperately needed for the establishment of Dougherty as the passenger coming down in the west elevator after the shooting.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty what time he came down for lunch, and thereby conceals that Dougherty had previously claimed he was on the sixth floor until 12, and would thereby have been on the sixth floor when Charles Givens claimed he last saw Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission Attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty if he called the west elevator to the first floor after lunch, or if it was on the ground floor waiting for him, something that Dougherty may not have remembered, but something that was of vital importance and needed to be asked.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to test whether or not a rifle shot from the sixth floor sniper's nest window could have been heard by Jack Dougherty, standing near the opposite end of the building, as a sound coming from above him.

4-8-64--September 1964. Ball, Belin, and the Warren Commission fail to explore the possibility Dougherty went upstairs to work after the shooting, after someone else had taken the west elevator to the ground floor.

4-8-64--September 1964. Attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin and the Warren Commission as a whole fail to acknowledge that their conclusion Jack Dougherty rode the west elevator down to the first floor as Baker and Truly ran upstairs places Dougherty on the fifth floor by the west elevator as Oswald crossed an open stretch of floor before him.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin allows Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer to testify as though Charles Givens' new-found story (about seeing Oswald near the sniper's nest after everyone else had left the sixth floor) had been common knowledge on 11-22-63, when Belin knew this wasn't true.

5-13-64. Dallas Police Detective Jack Revill testifies in support of Givens' new-found story, and offers Dallas Police Detective V. J. Brian as a witness to his discussion with Givens, only to have Warren Commission General Counsel J. Lee Rankin fail to ask Brian about Givens in testimony taken just after Revill dropped his smelly surprise.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball cuts off Eddie Piper after Piper volunteers that he has no idea who brought the elevators down just after the shots, and steers him to what he believes is a more productive course--that he failed to see Vickie Adams come down the stairs.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball not only fails to ask Eddie Piper the questions about Jack Dougherty he'd claimed in a memo needed to be asked, but uses the failure of Piper to provide answers to these never-asked questions as a means of discrediting him.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball inexplicably fails to ask William Shelley about Jack Dougherty's 4-8-64 testimony, in which Dougherty claimed Shelley had told him he saw Oswald with a large package on 11-22-63.

5-19-64. The February 17-18 statements of Vickie Adams, who claimed she raced down the stairs just after the shooting, and Otis Williams, who claimed he raced up to the fourth floor shortly after the shooting (and who later claimed he'd taken the back stairs up to the second floor just after the shooting), are inexplicably missing from a batch of statements taken by the Dallas Police that are only now provided the Warren Commission.

6-4-64--September 1964. Vickie Adams' boss, Dorothy Ann Garner, lets it be known she'd be willing to testify in support of Adams' and Styles' claim they raced down the stairs after the shooting, and goes one step further by claiming she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after Adams and Styles ran down the stairs...and is totally blown off by the Warren Commission...

June-64--September 1964. Chapter IV in the Commission's Final report is presented, approved, and sold to the public even though it includes an egregious lie, which, no surprise, helps sell Oswald's guilt. In support of the Commission's conclusion Vickie Adams was mistaken, and that Oswald did in fact race down the stairs within a minute of the shooting, the report claims: "Victoria Adams, who worked on the fourth floor of the Depository Building, claimed that within about 1 minute following the shots she ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor, down the rear stairs to the first floor, where she encountered two Depository employees--William Shelley and Billy Lovelady. If her estimate of time is correct, she reached the bottom of the stairs before Truly and Baker started up, and she must have run down the stairs ahead of Oswald and would probably have seen or heard him..." It then strikes: "Shelley and Lovelady, however, have testified that they... reentered the building by the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front entrance".

So where was the lie? I sure hope you caught it.

It was the bit about Shelley and Lovelady re-entering the building through the REAR door several minutes after Baker and Truly rushed through the front door. While Shelley and Lovelady both struggled with their time estimates, and thereby helped the Commission in its effort to discredit Adams, they also were consistent in that they both testified--in the testimony the Commission cited by footnote to support they'd re-entered by the rear door, moreover-- to re-entering the building through the side door. By claiming they re-entered the building through the REAR door, instead of the side door, the commission had effectively doubled the distance the men were presumed to have covered in the "several minutes" of their estimate.

Great summary, Pat.

I've long suspected the 5th floor west elevator was the "getaway" vehicle for at least one of the sixth - floor conspirators, but you have raised the bar enormously. 

All of these failures by highly competent lawyers were not "oversights." These were deliberate omissions, designed to conceal rather than reveal the truth. 

The WC lawyers were afraid to ask the relevant questions lest testimony be introduced that would undermine the official, false, solution to the crime. 

On 10/15/2022 at 1:34 AM, Roger Odisio said:

Remarkable film.  But one thing bothered me, that doesn't lessen the powerful impact of all that Negrete says.

It's the acceptance of the second floor lunch room encounter as if it really happened, rather being a concoction by the WC to try to place him where he could have been after shooting from the 6th floor.

In his first interrogation, Oswald said he went to the second floor to buy a coke to have *with* his lunch  He then ate his lunch on the first floor.  Then he went outside to see the P parade.

So where is there room for Oswald to be confronted by Truly and Baker getting a coke on the second floor *after* the murder?  Did he eat his lunch after the murder?  Or maybe he was lying about his whole alibi.

But presumably Negrete and Ernest (and I) don't believe either version.  They have established thru the original testimony of the women, before it was changed, lied about, or ignored, that Oswald never came down those steps after the murder.

So believe the lunch room encounter fabrication if you want--that Oswald with a coke ran into Truly and Baker on the second floor *after* the murder.  If he wasn't on the 6ht floor when the shots were fired and didn't come down those stairs after the murder, it doesn't matter.  He wasn't an assassin.

The film would have been cleaner and stronger if Negrete had deleted references to the lunch room encounter and stuck to the straightforward story.  It's still a blockbuster.

Next up for Negrete?  Looking into the Darnell film to finish the job of establishing where Oswald was at the time of the murder.

 

 

 

 

All true, Roger.

We all agree (Dave Von Pein loudly excepted) that our man "Oswald" did NOT run down the stairs from the sixth floor after the shooting.

Whatever the origin of the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story, there is no doubt in my mind that Baker did indeed confront a suspect near the stairs inside the TSBD on about the "3rd or 4th floor."

After all, that is exactly what Baker wrote in his first day affidavit late in the afternoon of the 22nd. Baker, as we all know, wrote that affidavit describing the suspect while he, Baker, could see our "Oswald" in plain view in Fritz's office at that very moment. Yet Baker did NOT identify our "Oswald" as the suspect he confronted inside the TSBD! Instead, Baker went to some length to provide a physical description of the man - not "Oswald" - he confronted.

Why?

Because Baker believed that the man he confronted, the man vouched for by Truly, was in fact, a conspirator, one who was still on the loose. 

There is no other possible explanation for why Baker wrote what he wrote on the afternoon in Fritz's office. 

[Affidavit of M. L. Baker, November 22, 1963] - Page 1 of 2 - The Portal to Texas History (unt.edu)