4 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

In the summary of the 3 casket arrivals, it is not clear other than the 6:35 body bag one, whether the 7-7:30 Siebert/O’Neill or 8:00 Joint Casket Bearing Team actually saw the body being taken out of their respective caskets? If not, it is a high probability that one or both of those caskets were empty when they were brought into the morgue area. Also, what time did the Gawker’s casket arrive to transport the body to the WH? Remember that the original bronze casket got a broken handle when it was loaded onto the plane. And I remember from some where that there was a stop in Dallas having to do with the casket and oxygen tanks that would mimic the weight and feel of a body, but I don’t recall the details or the source.

Denise, I think you're correct about Siebert/O'Neill.

From whokilledjfk.net/arrival at bethesda.htm.

" . . . .I believe that the FBI agents dissembled in their November 26 report [11] when they implied that they maintained constant vigilance over the president's body. Omission of critical time points conveys the impression that their involvement with the ornamental casket was continuous when, in fact, it was not.

Detailed time points are provided in the early part of their report [11]. For example, two estimates of the time of arrival of Air Force One from Dallas are quoted, whereas the actual time of arrival is omitted as are the times of departure for, and arrival at, Bethesda:

On arrival at the Medical Center, the ambulance stopped in front of the main entrance, at which time Mrs. JACQUELINE KENNEDY and ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT KENNEDY embarked from ambulance and entered the building. The ambulance was thereafter driven around to the rear entrance where the President's body was removed and taken into the autopsy room. Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room. A tight security was immediately placed around the autopsy room by the Naval facility and the U.S. Secret Service.

Their claim that they carried the casket into the autopsy room is dubious since the president's body had been on the table in the autopsy room for approximately half an hour. In fact, Sibert told the ARRB that he and O'Neill assisted in taking the ornamental bronze casket into the anteroom of the morgue [15, p. 45]. This detail is revealing. If the FBI agents carried the casket into the autopsy room, it is inconceivable that they would ever say otherwise. They may have agreed to leave the casket in the anteroom because of the "tight security...placed around the autopsy room."

If Sibert and O'Neill were prevented from entering the autopsy room at 7:17 pm, when were they permitted to enter? A reasonable estimate is 7:35 PM. Dr. Humes told the Warren Commission that the "body was received at 7:35 PM" [19]. (It is noteworthy that the Warren Commission failed to see the conflict with that time and an 8:00 PM arrival of the body brought in by the honor guard.) When they re-entered, Sibert and O'Neill may have seen the bronze casket open in the anteroom and the body on the table, but did not see the body removed from the bronze casket. Their report states [11, p. 3]:

The president's body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported...

This choice of words indicates that the agents made the assumption the body had been removed from the bronze casket, an event they did not witness. It is noteworthy that they had explicitly stated earlier in their report,

Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room.

It is likely that if they had seen the ornamental casket being opened and the body removed, they would have stated it explicitly in their November 26 report (however, see [20]).

Shortly after their admission to the autospy room, Sibert and O'Neill were asked to leave because x-rays had to be taken [16, pp. 62-63]. Presumably, their removal from the autopsy room was necessary so that the formal delivery of the body by the honor guard could be executed at 8:00 PM.

It appears that the president's body was replaced in the ornamental casket. Medical technician James E. Metzler told David Lifton [1, pp. 630-634] that the president's body was inside the ornamental bronze casket when it was brought into the morgue at 8:00 PM:

I went out to the door, yes...the honor guard was there. They brought in the casket...by the time I got to the door I believe they were just about coming in... The honor guard brought it in and they had to leave. And then I helped put him on the table... [The casket] was dark brown, I believe it had handles on the side of it. It would be something that you'd see at a viewing..."

Michael, thank you for your comments and the reminder.

I did hear on the podcast that the other morgue was typically used only for biological research - vice any autopsies.  

Previous to the podcast, I'd never heard of a second morgue possibilty.

I believe your inclination to be "the way it was".

Considering the number of what I believe to be credible witnesses, my opinion is that there is definitely enough evidence to 99.9 percent confirm that there were two different caskets that were brought into the autopsy morgue.  The testimony of the X-ray tech who was already taking the film for developing, just as the grey Navy ambulance allegedly transporting the ornamental casket arrived at the Bethesda front entrance, with The First Lady, et al aboard - is compelling.  

USMC Sgt Boyajian's report of the casket arriving a 6:35 p.m. - is even more compelling.  Anyone who's ever served in the military knows how important time is; if you are wrong and screw something up - could be a "big mistake".  Rest assure, a USMC NCO would be v-e-r-r-y precise, especially given the moment.

There was a "shell game" going on that evening, and it certainly was not conducted to ensure everything that night was on the "up and up".

I can "buy" a decoy ambulance for an alleged security of the body concern, but in context, too many of the strange serial happenstances that took place make no logical sense, for only that reason.

What I cannot get my arms around is exactly when JFK's corpse could've been switched out of the ornamental casket into the shipping casket, and if, as it now seems quite apparent, how exactly, did it arrive at Bethesda before the official autopsy time.

I only see two options: (1) Switched at Parkland before it left and transported by separate vehicle to Love Field, then loaded into another aircraft, which departed earlier than AF 1, and finally then driven/helicoptered to Bethesda upon arrival at Andrews AFB, or: (2) Switched at Parkland and transported by separate vehicle to Love Field and secreted in a forward hold of AF 1, to be removed immediately upon arrival at Andrews and helicoptered to Bethesda.  Either could've afforded a good "head start" so as to perform the pre-autopsy, prior to the official autopsy.

It would seem untenable for those involved to have been able to switch the body out at Love Field; perfect situation for a Murphy's Law scenario.

And, did not the honor casket team not "lose" the Navy grey ambulance, after it departed from the front entrance at the hospital - for 30-45", until they magically discovered it at the rear loading/unloading dock?  As I recall the lieutenant in charge of the detail was somewhat beyond perplexed at his predicament.

As Red Buttons would've put it - "Strange things are (were) happening!"  

38 minutes ago, Keven Hofeling said:

The Kennedy Casket Conspiracy

by Jacob G. Hornberger

November 22, 2010 | https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/kennedy-casket-conspiracy/

Last November a new book entitled The Kennedy Detail: JFK’s Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence, by Gerald Blaine and Lisa McCubbin, promised to “reveal the inside story of the assassination, the weeks and days that led to it and its heartrending aftermath.”

Unfortunately, however, while providing details of the events leading up to the assassination, the assassination itself, and President Kennedy’s funeral, the book provided hardly any information on one of the most mysterious aspects of the assassination: what happened when Kennedy’s body was delivered to the morgue at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the evening of the assassination.

For almost 50 years, people have debated the Kennedy assassination. Some claim that the Warren Commission got it right — that Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald, a lone-nut assassin. Others contend that Kennedy was killed as part of a conspiracy.

It is not the purpose of this article to engage in that debate. The purpose of this article is simply to focus on what happened at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the evening of November 22, 1963, and, specifically, the events that took place prior to Kennedy’s autopsy. What happened that night is so unusual that it cries out for truthful explanation even after 47 years.

U.S. officials have long maintained that Kennedy’s body was delivered to the Bethesda morgue in the heavy, ornamental, bronze casket in which the body had been placed at Parkland Hospital in Dallas.

The problem, however, is that the evidence establishes that Kennedy’s body was actually delivered to the Bethesda morgue twice, at separate times and in separate caskets.

How does one resolve this problem? One option, obviously, is just to forget about it, given that the assassination took place almost a half-century ago. But it seems to me that since the matter is so unusual and since it involves a president of the United States, the American people — regardless of which side of the divide they fall on — lone-nut assassin or conspiracy — are entitled to a truthful explanation of what happened that night at Bethesda. And the only ones who can provide it are U.S. officials, especially those in the Secret Service, the FBI, and the U.S. military, the agencies that were in control of events at Bethesda that night.

The facts of the casket controversy are set forth in detail in a five-volume work that was published in 2009 entitled Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government’s Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination of JFK. The author is Douglas P. Horne, who served as chief analyst for military records for the Assassination Records Review Board. The ARRB was the official board established to administer the JFK Records Act, which required federal departments and agencies to divulge to the public their files and records relating to the Kennedy assassination. The act was enacted after Oliver Stone’s 1991 movie, JFK, produced a firestorm of public outcry against the U.S. government’s decision to keep assassination-related records secret from the public for 75 years after publication of the Warren Commission Report in 1964 and for 50 years after publication of the House Select Committee on Assassinations Report in 1979.

Horne’s book posits that high officials in the national security state — i.e., the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, and U.S. military — planned and executed the assassination of John F. Kennedy and that the man who replaced Kennedy as president, Lyndon B. Johnson, orchestrated a cover-up of the conspiracy by telling officials that national security (i.e., a potential nuclear war, citing Oswald’s activities relating to the Soviet Union and Cuba) necessitated shutting down an investigation into determining whether Kennedy’s murder involved a conspiracy. Horne’s book focuses primarily on the events surrounding the autopsy of Kennedy’s body on the night of the assassination. As he himself acknowledges, his book expands upon the thesis set forth in a book published in 1981 entitled Best Evidence by David Lifton, which was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize and reached Number 4 on the New York Times best seller list.

It was Lifton who originally challenged the official story that Kennedy’s body was delivered only once to the Bethesda morgue. It is Horne who has set forth in more detail the evidence that establishes that Lifton was right.

When Air Force One landed at Andrews Air Force Base from Dallas, Kennedy’s casket was placed into a gray Navy ambulance in which Kennedy’s wife, Jacqueline, was traveling. Proceeding in a motorcade, the ambulance arrived at the front of the Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:55 p.m.

At 8:00 p.m., a little more than an hour later, the casket was carried into the Bethesda morgue by a military honor team called the Joint Casket Bearer Team, which consisted of personnel from all the branches of military service, all of whom were in dress uniform and wore white gloves.

However, the evidence also establishes that at 6:35 p.m. — 90 minutes earlier than when Kennedy’s Dallas casket was carried into the morgue at 8:00 p.m. by the Joint Casket Bearer Team — another group of military personnel carried the president’s body into the Bethesda morgue. That casket was a plain shipping casket rather than the expensive, heavy, ornamental, bronze casket into which the president’s body had been placed in Dallas.

Equally strange was the fact that the president’s body at the 6:35 p.m. delivery was in a body bag rather than wrapped in the white sheets in which the medical personnel in Dallas had wrapped it before it was placed into the heavy, bronze casket in Dallas.

Have doubts? Let’s look at the evidence.

On November 22, 1963, Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian was stationed at the Marine Corps Institute in Washington, D.C. On that day, he received orders to go to the Bethesda Hospital to serve as NCO in charge of a 10-man Marine security detail for President Kennedy’s autopsy.

Four days later — on November 26 — Boyajian filed a report of what happened. Here is what his report stated in part:

The detail arrived at the hospital at approximately 1800 [6:00 p.m.] and after reporting as ordered several members of the detail were posted at entrances to prevent unauthorized persons from entering the prescribed area…. At approximately 1835 [6:35 p.m.] the casket was received at the morgue entrance and taken inside.” (Bracketed material added.)

If you would like to see a copy of Sergeant Boyajian’s report, it is posted here on the Internet as part of the online appendix to Horne’s book.

Still not convinced?

In 1963, E-6 Navy hospital corpsman Dennis David was stationed at the Bethesda National Navy Center, where his job consisted of reading medical textbooks and transforming them into Navy correspondence courses. David later became a Navy officer and served in that capacity for 11 years in the Medical Services Corps. He retired from active duty in 1976.

On November 22, 1963, David was serving as “Chief of the Day” at the Navy medical school at Bethesda. According to an official ARRB interview conducted by Horne on February 14, 1997, David stated that at about 5:30 p.m. he was summoned to appear at the office of the Chief of the Day for the entire Bethesda complex (including the medical school). When he arrived, there were three or four Secret Service agents in the office. He was informed that President Kennedy’s autopsy was going to be held at the Bethesda morgue. David was ordered to round up a team and proceed to the morgue and establish security. He rounded up several men from various barracks, proceeded to the Bethesda morgue, and assigned security duties to his team.

At around 6:30 p.m., David received a phone call stating that “your visitor is on the way: you will need some people to offload. ” David rounded up 7 or 8 sailors to carry in the casket and a few minutes later, a black hearse drove up. Several men in blue suits got out of the hearse, along with the driver and passenger, both of whom were wearing white (operating room) smocks. Under David’s supervision, the sailors offloaded the casket and carried it into the morgue.

What did the casket look like? David stated that it was a simple, gray shipping casket similar to the ones commonly used in the Vietnam War.

Now keep in mind that the motorcade in which the gray Navy ambulance that carried Mrs. Kennedy and the heavy bronze casket into which her husband’s body had been placed in Dallas didn’t arrive at the hospital until 6:55 p.m., twenty minutes after Kennedy’s body was carried into the morgue by David’s team. Keep in mind also that according to the official version of events, the Dallas casket wasn’t carried into the morgue by the Joint Casket Bearer Team until 8:00 p.m.

David added that after his team had delivered the shipping casket into the morgue, he proceeded into the main portion of the hospital, where several minutes later (i.e., at 6:55 p.m.) he saw the motorcade in which Mrs. Kennedy was traveling (and the Dallas casket was being transported) approaching the front of Bethesda Hospital. As he stated to Horne, he knew at that point that President Kennedy’s body could not be in the Dallas casket because his team had, just a few minutes earlier, delivered Kennedy’s body into the morgue in the shipping casket.

While David didn’t personally witness the president’s body being taken out of the shipping casket, he later asked one of the autopsy physicians, a U.S. Navy commander named Dr. J. Thornton Boswell, in which casket the president had come in. Boswell responded, “You ought to know; you were there.”

Moreover, when Lifton showed David a photo of the Dallas casket in 1980, David categorically stated that that was not the shipping casket in which Kennedy’s body had been delivered at 6:35 p.m. (Horne, volume 4, page 989.)

What David told Horne in 1997 was a repetition of what David had told Lifton many years before, which Lifton had related in his 1981 book, Best Evidence. As Lifton recounts in his book, David gave the same account to a reporter from the Lake County News-Sun in Waukegan, Illinois, in 1975.

If you would like to see Horne’s official ARRB report of his interview with David, it is posted on the Internet here. (Lifton’s account is in chapter 25 of his book and is entitled “The Lake County Informant.”)

Still not satisfied?

According to Horne, “After Best Evidence was published, a Michigan newspaper and a Canadian news team located and interviewed Donald Rebentisch, one of the sailors in Dennis David’s working party, who had been telling the same story independently for years.” (Horne, volume 3, page 675.)

So, you have a Marine sergeant and two sailors, whose statements unequivocally confirm that Kennedy’s body was carried into the Bethesda morgue in a plain shipping casket at 6:35 p.m.

Is there any more evidence of the 6:35 p.m. delivery of Kennedy’s body to the morgue?

Yes.

On November 22, 1963, Joseph Gawler’s Sons, Inc., which, according to Horne, had been the most prestigious funeral home in Washington for many years, was summoned to Bethesda Hospital to perform the embalming of President Kennedy’s body. On November 22-23, 1963, Gawler’s prepared what was called a “First Call Sheet” for President Kennedy’s autopsy, which contained the following handwritten notation:

“Body removed from metal shipping casket at NSNH at Bethesda.”

The person who wrote that notation was Joseph E. Hagan, the supervisor in charge of the Gawler’s embalming team for the Kennedy autopsy and who later became president of Gawler’s. When the ARRB interviewed Hagan in 1996, he stated that he had not personally witnessed the president’s body being brought into the morgue in the shipping casket but that someone whom he could not recall had advised him of that fact.

If you would like to see a copy of the Gawler’s First Call Sheet, it is posted here on the Internet.

Need more evidence?

Paul O’Connor was an E-4 Navy corpsman who served as an autopsy technician for the Kennedy autopsy on November 22, 1963. According to Horne, O’Connor told the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977 and Lifton in 1979 and 1980 that Kennedy’s body had arrived in a “cheap, metal, aluminum” casket in a “rubberized body bag” with a “zipper down the middle.” (Horne, volume 4, page 990.)

In 1979, Lifton interviewed a man named Floyd Riebe, who was a medical photography student present at Kennedy’s autopsy when he was an E-5 Navy corpsman stationed at Bethesda. According to Horne, Riebe stated that Kennedy’s casket was not a viewing casket because the lid did not open halfway down. Riebe also confirmed that Kennedy’s body was in a rubberized body bag with a zipper. (Horne, volume 4, page 990.)

Jerrol Custer was an E-4 Navy corpsman who served as an X-ray technician for the Kennedy autopsy. According to Horne, Custer told Lifton in repeated interviews that Kennedy’s body was in a body bag. Custer also told Lifton that he saw the black hearse that brought in the shipping casket. He stated that he saw two different caskets in the Bethesda morgue, one of which was bronze. Interestingly, in a deposition conducted by the ARRB in 1997, Custer denied that Kennedy was in a body bag even though he had stated the contrary in two separate interviews with Lifton in 1979 and 1989. (Horne, volume 4, page 991.)

Ed Reed, an E-4 Navy corpsman, also served as an X-ray technician for the Kennedy autopsy. In an ARRB deposition in 1997, Reed testified that Kennedy’s casket was a “typical aluminum military casket.” He said that there were Marines present at the time the casket was delivered. He recalled that the president arrived in a see-through clear plastic bag, not in a standard body bag. (Horne, volume 4, page 991.)

According to Horne, James Jenkins, another E-4 Navy corpsman who served as an autopsy technician for Kennedy’s autopsy, told Lifton in 1979 that Kennedy’s casket was not ornamental and that it was plain — “awful clean and simple” and “not something you’d expect a president to be in.” (Horne, volume 4, page 992.)

According to Horne, John VanHuesen, a member of the Gawler’s embalming team, told the ARRB that he recalled seeing a “black, zippered plastic pouch” in the Bethesda morgue early in the autopsy. (Horne, volume 4, page 992.)

So, what do we have here? We have eight Marine and Navy enlisted personnel who were performing their assigned duties on November 22, 1963, and whose statements unequivocally establish that Kennedy’s body was delivered to the Bethesda morgue at 6:35 p.m. in a shipping casket and in a body bag rather than in the heavy, ornamental, bronze casket into which it had been placed at Parkland Hospital, wrapped in white sheets.

We also have two written reports — Sergeant Boyajian’s report and the Gawler’s report — that were filed contemporaneously with the autopsy, both of which confirm early arrival of Kennedy’s body in the shipping casket. We also have a member of the Gawler’s embalming team stating that he saw a body bag in the morgue.

But that’s not all. We also have the statement by Dennis David that after he and his team offloaded Kennedy’s casket and delivered it into the morgue at 6:35 p.m., he personally witnessed the motorcade in which Mrs. Kennedy (and the Dallas casket) was traveling approaching the front of Bethesda Hospital at 6:55 p.m.

In fact, David isn’t the only one who saw Mrs. Kennedy’s motorcade (which contained the Dallas casket) approaching Bethesda Hospital after the president’s body had already been delivered to the morgue at 6:35 p.m. According to Horne, Jerrol Custer told Lifton in 1980 that he had seen Mrs. Kennedy in the main lobby while he was on his way upstairs to process X-rays that had already been taken of the president’s body. (Horne, volume 4, page 991.)

Let’s now turn back to the official version of events. The official version is that Kennedy’s body was carried into the Bethesda morgue by the Joint Casket Bearer Team at 8:00 p.m. in the heavy, ornamental, bronze casket into which it had been placed at Parkland Hospital. This is the account given in William Manchester’s book The Death of a President. When the casket was opened, Kennedy’s body was taken out, and witnesses confirm that it was wrapped in the white sheets that had been wrapped around the body by the Parkland Hospital personnel in Dallas. At 8:15 p.m., the autopsy began.

So, which is it?

Was Kennedy’s body carried by a team of sailors into the Bethesda morgue at 6:35 p.m. in a shipping casket encased in a body bag after being delivered in a black hearse that contained several men in blue suits?

Or was it carried in by the Joint Casket Bearer Team at 8:00 p.m. in the heavy, ornamental, bronze casket from Dallas and wrapped in white sheets after being delivered in a gray Navy ambulance?

The answer: Both.

Now, I know what you’re thinking: “There’s no way that Kennedy’s body would have been delivered two different times into the Bethesda morgue. Why would anyone do that? Anyway, if Kennedy’s body was actually delivered into the morgue at 6:35 p.m. in the shipping casket, how did it get back into the heavy, ornamental, bronze casket from Dallas that the Joint Casket Bearer Team carried in at 8:00 p.m.? Why, that’s just plain crazy!”

Permit me to cite some of the adjectives that the noted attorney Vincent Bugliosi used in a chapter entitled “David Lifton and the Alteration of the President’s Body” in his book Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy: “preposterous,” “far out,” “unhinged,” and “nonsense.”

So, which casket delivery would you guess Bugliosi settled on — the 6:35 p.m. delivery of the shipping casket with the body bag or the 8:00 p.m. heavy bronze casket delivery with the white sheets wrapped around Kennedy’s body?

You guessed wrong!

Bugliosi settled on a third casket delivery.

Yes, you read that right. Vincent Bugliosi, along with noted conspiracy critic Gerald Posner, author of the 1993 book Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK, have settled on a third casket delivery into the Bethesda morgue — one that took place between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. — that is, after the 6:35 p.m. casket delivery and before the 8:00 p.m. casket delivery.

Are you doubting me? Are you thinking to yourself, “No way, Jacob. Two casket deliveries were already enough for me. But a third? Now you’ve gone too far”?

Permit me first to set forth Bugliosi’s position. Referring to Paul O’Connor, the E-4 X-ray technician cited above, Bugliosi writes,

O’Connor told the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] investigators that the president’s body arrived in a pink shipping casket and told Lifton that the body arrived in a “cheap, pinkish gray casket, just a tin box.” But FBI agent James Sibert told me that he, his partner, Francis O’Neill, a few Secret Service agents, and a few others he doesn’t recall, carried the casket from the limousine at the back of the hospital to “an anteroom right next to the autopsy room….” He vividly remembers that “it was a very expensive one, definitely not a shipping casket” and he recalls it was “very, very heavy….” [The] November 26, 1963, report of FBI agents Sibert and O’Neill reads that when the president’s body arrived in the autopsy room, “the complete body was wrapped in sheets.”… (Bugliosi, pages 1069-70; bracketed material added).

Posner writes.

Sibert and O’Neill helped take the casket inside, and there, waiting for the President’s body were [autopsy physicians] Dr. James Humes and Dr. J. Thornton Boswell…. When the funeral motorcade arrived at the hospital, Robert and Jacqueline Kennedy were escorted to upstairs waiting rooms while the casket was brought to the morgue. There, Drs. Humes and Boswell, with help from FBI agents O’Neill and Sibert and Secret Service agents Kellerman and Greer, removed the body…. (Posner, chapter 13, page 299; bracketed material added.)

Having concluded that the president’s casket could have been delivered only one time to the Bethesda morgue, Bugliosi and Posner obviously concluded that FBI agents Francis O’Neill and James Sibert and Secret Service agents Roy Kellerman and William Greer must be the only ones telling the truth and that the enlisted men who stated they carried the president’s body into the morgue at 6:35 p.m. in a shipping casket had to be speaking falsely.

It is clear that to both Bugliosi and Posner it is inconceivable that the 6:35 p.m. group could be telling the truth. Bugliosi ridicules the veracity of Paul O’Connor, while Posner mocks the veracity of O’Connor, Jerrol Custer, and James Jenkins.

What about Marine Sgt. Roger Boyajian, who filed the after-action report on November 26, in which he stated unequivocally that the president’s casket had been carried into the morgue at 6:35 p.m.?

What about Dennis David, the Chief of Day for the Naval medical school, who later retired from the Navy as an officer, who stated that the president’s body had been carried into the morgue at 6:35 p.m. in a shipping casket?

What about Donald Rebentisch, a member of David’s team, who stated the same thing?

What about Floyd Riebe and Ed Reed, two other enlisted men who confirmed the account?

What about Joseph Gawler’s Sons, Inc., whose representatives filed a written report on November 22 23, 1963, which stated that the president’s body had arrived in a shipping casket?

Most of them aren’t even mentioned by Bugliosi and Posner, and Posner describes them collectively as “bit players at Bethesda — orderlies, technicians, and casket carriers.”

Bit players?

Permit me level a very simple question at Vincent Bugliosi and Gerald Posner: Why in the world would these eight enlisted men, who were simply doing their jobs on the evening of November 22, 1963, have any reason to lie or concoct a false story about bringing the president’s body into the Bethesda morgue?

Only Bugliosi and Posner can explain why they didn’t carefully focus on and analyze the statements and testimony of all these witnesses, but let give you my theory on the matter. In my opinion, the reason they didn’t do so is that they knew that if they did, their own position would immediately become untenable.

Why?

Because both Bugliosi and Posner know that the chance that each of all those witnesses came up with the same fake story independently of all the other witnesses who were saying the same thing is so astronomically small as to be nonexistent.

Therefore, for all the witnesses to have all come up with the same fake story about the 6:35 p.m. delivery of Kennedy’s body into the Bethesda morgue in a shipping casket would have had to involve one of the most preposterous conspiracies of all time. Bugliosi and Posner would be relegated to becoming conspiracy theorists and ridiculous ones at that. They would be alleging that eight enlisted men in the United States Armed Forces who were suddenly called to duty to serve at the autopsy of President John F. Kennedy’s body conspired to concoct a wild and fake story about how they delivered President Kennedy’s body into the Bethesda morgue in a shipping casket at 6:35 p.m. on the evening of November 22, 1963. Oh, I forgot — the conspiracy also would have included the most prestigious funeral home in Washington, D.C., the funeral home that the U.S. military had selected to handle the embalming of the president’s body.

Well, pray tell, Mssrs. Bugliosi and Posner: What would have been the motive behind such a conspiracy?

Perhaps if we try to imagine how the conspiracy got arranged, we can figure out what the motive was.

Let’s see: Carrying out his orders to establish a team of Marines for security at Bethesda Hospital, Marine Sgt. Boyajian calls the team together and says, “Men, I’ve got an idea. Let’s conspire to come up with a fake and false story about how the president’s body got delivered to the Bethesda morgue. We’ll tell everybody that his body was brought to the morgue in a black hearse that contained several men in blue suits and that Kennedy’s body was contained in a shipping casket and in a body bag.” The team goes along with the idea.

Then, once Marine Sergeant Boyajian arrives at the morgue, he collars the Chief of the Day at Bethesda medical school, Dennis David (a “bit player” who would later become a Navy officer), and whispers in his ear, “Hey, dude, my Marines and I have come up with a great idea. We’re conspiring to concoct a fake story about how we delivered President Kennedy’s body into the morgue in a shipping casket at 6:35 p.m. Would you like to join our conspiracy?”

David responds, “Wow! That sounds great! Yeah, I’ll talk to my team about it.” So David goes to his team and convinces them to join the conspiracy.

Oh, but wait — there are also the other “bit players” to contact. So, the conspirators approach the X-ray technicians and photographers and, after some persuasion, convince them to join the conspiracy.

All that’s left is Joseph Gawler’s Sons, Inc. No problem. When they hear about the idea, they think it’s fantastic, and they’re willing to risk the good reputation they’ve built up over the years to become the most prestigious funeral home in Washington and quickly join the conspiracy.

And for what? Whoops! It still isn’t clear what the motive of all those “orderlies, technicians, and casket carriers” could have been.

Let me use the adjectives that Bugliosi employed to describe this supposed conspiracy among what Posner described as “bit players”: “preposterous,” “far out,” “unhinged,” and “nonsense.”

Unless one is convinced that such an impossible conspiracy took place, there is only one conclusion that can be reached: Those eight enlisted men and the representatives of Gawler’s funeral home, all of whom were suddenly and unexpectedly called to do their duty on the evening of November 22, 1963, were telling the truth. President Kennedy’s body was carried into the Bethesda morgue at 6:35 p.m. in a shipping casket and inside a body bag.

The next question naturally arises: Was the O’Neill-Silbert-Kellerman-Greer casket delivery that Bugliosi and Posner settled on the same casket delivery as the Joint Casket Bearer’s Team’s casket delivery? Or were they two separate casket deliveries?

Posner doesn’t address the issue. In fact, he doesn’t even mention the Joint Casket Bearer’s Team’s delivery of the Dallas casket, which would seem odd, since it was prominently mentioned in William Manchester’s famous book on the assassination, The Death of a President. Perhaps Posner had difficulty reconciling the two different accounts and just felt it would be simpler to leave one of them out of his analysis.

Bulgliosi, on the other hand, does address the issue. What is his approach? Obviously convinced that there could have been only one casket delivery that night, he conflates the O’Neill-Sibert-Kellerman-Greer casket delivery and the Joint Casket Bearer Team’s casket delivery into one casket delivery.

The problem for Bugliosi, however, is that the evidence does not support his position. Instead, the evidence leads to but one conclusion: three separate casket deliveries, as follows:

6:35 p.m.: First casket delivery. We know this from the statements of Marine Sergeant Boyajian, Chief of the Day David, the six other enlisted men, and the Gawler’s funeral home report.

Between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. Second casket delivery. We know this from statements made by FBI agents O’Neill and Sibert and Secret Service agent Kellerman, as shown below.

8:00 p.m.: Third casket delivery. We know this from the official report of the Joint Casket Bearer’s Team, as shown below.

We have already reviewed the evidence that establishes the first casket delivery and its time of delivery of 6:35 p.m.

Let’s now review the evidence that establishes the second casket delivery, which took place sometime between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m.

In their official report of November 26, 1963, O’Neill and Sibert stated in part as follows,

On arrival at the Medical Center, the ambulance stopped in front of the main entrance, at which time Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy and Attorney General Robert Kennedy embarked from the ambulance and entered the building. The ambulance was thereafter driven around to the rear entrance where the President’s body was removed and taken into an autopsy room. Bureau agents assisted in the moving of the casket to the autopsy room.

Keep in mind that the ambulance arrived in the front of the hospital at 6:55 p.m. Keep in mind also that the Joint Casket Bearer Team didn’t deliver the Dallas casket into the morgue until more than an hour later, at 8:00 p.m.

On March 12, 1964, an official memo of the Warren Commission recounted the following exchange between Warren Commission counsel Arlen Spector and FBI agents O’Neill and Sibert:

Question: What was the time of the preparation for the autopsy at the hospital?

Answer: Approximately 7:17 p.m.

Question: What time did the autopsy begin?

Answer: Approximately 8:15 p.m.

Ask yourself: How could preparation for the autopsy begin at approximately 7:17 p.m. if the Joint Casket Bearer Team didn’t deliver the body into the morgue until 8:00 p.m.? Of course, since we know that the body had already been delivered to the morgue at 6:35 p.m. in the shipping casket, preparation for the autopsy could have begun at 7:17 p.m.

In fact, recall that X-ray technician Jerrol Custer, one of the enlisted men who witnessed Kennedy’s body being brought into the morgue in the shipping casket, saw Mrs. Kennedy entering the main lobby of the hospital as Custer was heading upstairs to process X-rays of Kennedy’s body.

Question: How could Custer have been processing X-rays of the president’s body if the Dallas casket containing the president’s body had not yet been delivered by either the Joint Casket Delivery Team at 8:00 p.m. or by O’Neill, Sibert, Kellerman, and Greer sometime between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m.?

In a deposition that was taken by the ARRB in 1997, Sibert was asked about the 7:17 p.m. time that he and O’Neill had referred to in their 1964 exchange with Specter:

Gunn: I will read for the record, if you will read along with me. “Question: What was the time of the preparation for the autopsy at the hospital?” “Answer: Approximately 7:17 P.M.” Do you see those words?

Sibert: Yes.

****

Gunn: Well, I guess my question in part is: Does the time that is provided here, 7:17 P.M., help you identify the approximate time that the casket was unloaded from the Navy ambulance?

Sibert: Well, that could have been the time that it was unloaded, the 7:17 — or just a short time thereafter when they got it in there. And, of course, they had to take the body out of the casket, put it on the autopsy table and this would be all the preparation too. (Horne, volume 3, pages 713 14.)

Ask yourself: If there was only one casket delivery, how could it be unloaded at 7:17 p.m. and also 8:00 p.m., as reported by the Joint Casket Bearer Team?

Here is what O’Neill wrote in a sworn statement to the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978:

Upon arriving at the National Naval Medical Center of Bethesda, the ambulance stopped at the front entrance where Jackie and RFK disembarked to proceed to the 17th floor. The ambulance then travelled to the rear where Sibert, Bill Greer (Secret Service), and Roy Kellerman (Secret Service), and I placed the casket on a roller and transported it into the autopsy room.

Notice that, once again, the implication is that the casket is promptly delivered after the 6:55 p.m. arrival of the motorcade. Also, notice that there is no mention of the Joint Casket Bearer Team and that O’Neill states that he, Sibert, Greer, and Kellerman transported the casket into the morgue on a roller.

In an affidavit signed and delivered to the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978, Sibert reinforced O’Neill’s testimony:

When the motorcade from the airport arrived at the Naval Hospital, Bobby Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy were let off at the administration building. Mr. O’Neill and I helped carry the damaged casket into the autopsy room with some Secret Service agents.

Consider the testimony of Secret Service Agent Kellerman before the Warren Commission in 1964:

Mr. Specter: What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. Kellerman: Immediately. Immediately after we brought him in.

Later in his testimony, Kellerman became more specific:

Mr. Kellerman: Let’s come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So, there is 7 o’clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn’t anybody to call. They were all there. So, at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy….

Notice that Kellerman is reinforcing O’Neill’s and Sibert’s testimony that they delivered the Dallas casket into the morgue sometime between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. Ask yourself: How could they begin to work on the autopsy no later than 7:30 p.m., given that the Joint Casket Bearer Team didn’t deliver the Dallas casket until 8:00 p.m.?

According to Horne, a Washington Star article dated November 23, 1963, referring to the motorcade’s 6:55 p.m. (or 6:53 p.m., as another account asserted) arrival at the front of the Bethesda Hospital with Mrs. Kennedy and the Dallas casket, “also noted that the ambulance containing the casket was not driven away from the front of the hospital facility for at least 12 minutes after it arrived, i.e., at about 7:07 PM (or at 7:05 PM at the earliest, depending on which arrival time one uses).” (Horne, volume 3, pages 677-78.) That fits with O’Neill, Sibert’s, and Kellerman’s testimony that the Dallas casket was delivered to the morgue between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m.

Let’s now review the evidence that establishes the third casket delivery, the one at 8:00 p.m. by the Joint Casket Bearer Team.

Headed by infantry 1st Lt. Samuel Bird, the Joint Casket Bearer Team was the honor team charged with formally carrying President Kennedy’s body into the Bethesda morgue. As previously stated, the team consisted of soldiers in dress uniform and white gloves representing all the branches of the military.

On December 10, 1963, Lt. Bird filed his official report of the Joint Casket Bearer Team’s delivery of the president’s casket into the Bethesda morgue on the evening of November 22, 1963. The report stated in part:

The Joint Casket Team consisted of one officer, one NCO and seven enlisted men (from each branch of the Armed Forces)…. They removed the remains as follows: 1. From the ambulance to the morgue (Bethesda) 2000 hours [8:00 p.m.], 22 Nov. 63. (Bracketed material added.)

A copy of the Joint Casket Bearer Team’s official report is posted on the Internet here.

You will notice that the report makes no mention of O’Neill, Sibert, Kellerman, or Greer or the roller that O’Neill, Sibert, Kellerman, and Greer used to carry the casket into the morgue.

You’ll also notice that the report contains the following memorable incident, later recounted in Manchester’s The Death of a President:

While the casket was being moved inside the hospital, Brigadier General [Godfrey] McHugh relieved [illegible] from the casket team and awkwardly took his place. (Bracketed material added.)

Nowhere do O’Neill, Sibert, Kellerman, or Greer relate the McHugh incident in their account of delivering the Dallas casket into the morgue.

There is something else to consider: A member of the Joint Casket Bearer Team denied that O’Neill, Sibert, Kellerman, and Greer helped the team carry the casket into the morgue. According to Lifton,

I asked Cheek [a member of the Joint Casket Bearer Team] whether two FBI men were present when the ambulance was unloaded. “No,” he replied, ”there were just the six of us.” I asked this because Sibert and O’Neill reported they helped with the casket, but made no mention of a casket team. (Lifton, chapter 16; bracketed material added.)

Now, consider the following sworn testimony before the Warren Commission on March 16, 1964, of Commander James J. Humes, one of the physicians who conducted the autopsy on the president’s body on the evening of November 22:

Mr. Specter: What time did the autopsy start approximately?

Commander Humes: The president’s body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. (Warren Commission Report, Volume II, page 349.)

Ask yourself: How could the body have been received at 7:35 p.m. (i.e., 25 minutes before 8:00 p.m.) if the Joint Casket Bearer’s Team didn’t deliver it until 8:00 p.m.?

Now, let’s examine the thesis originally developed by Lifton and later expanded upon by Horne to see if the evidence is consistent with three casket deliveries into the morgue.

Again, unless one concludes that Marine Sergeant Boyajian, Chief of the Day David, the other six enlisted men, and Gawler’s funeral home entered into a quick, preposterous conspiracy to concoct a fake story about the delivery of the president’s body, we begin with the fact that President Kennedy’s body was offloaded from a black hearse containing several men in blue suits and delivered into the Bethesda morgue in a shipping casket at 6:35 p.m.

That obviously means that the Dallas casket that arrived twenty minutes later at 6:55 p.m. in the motorcade with Mrs. Kennedy did not contain the president’s body.

Therefore, there was an obvious challenge for whoever did this and wished to keep it secret: how to get the president’s body back into the Dallas casket so that it could be formally delivered into the morgue by the Joint Casket Bearer Team just before the autopsy would begin?

As Horne explains, that was what the O’Neill-Sibert-Kellerman-Greer casket delivery had to be all about. Soon after the arrival of the motorcade, they drove around to the morgue and carried the empty Dallas casket into the morgue sometime between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m.

Then, sometime between 7:30 p.m. and 8:00 p.m., the president’s body was then wrapped back into the white sheets in which it had been wrapped in Dallas, placed back into the Dallas casket, and carried back out to the Navy ambulance, enabling the Joint Casket Bearer Team to officially carry it back into the morgue at 8:00 p.m.

There is actually no other reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the evidence. Kennedy’s body is delivered at 6:35 p.m. in the shipping casket. The middle delivery of the Dallas casket — the one between 7:00 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. — was used to effect the transfer of the body back into the Dallas casket, so that it can then be carried back out into the gray ambulance and then be delivered formally into the morgue at 8:00 p.m. by the Joint Casket Bearer Team, enabling the autopsy to formally begin 8:15 p.m., which is the time that everyone agrees the autopsy formally began.

Why was all this done? That is a very good question.

One possible explanation is that officials were concerned about the possibility that someone might try to attack the motorcade from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda Hospital and steal the president’s body and, therefore, decided to secretly separate the president’s body from the Dallas casket and secretly transport it to the morgue to obviate that possibility.

It seems to me that that would have been a plausible explanation, if they had announced it publicly at the time. But they didn’t do that. Instead, they engaged in secrecy, deception, and cover up, and have ever since.

Some people would undoubtedly respond, “No way, Jacob! Not high government officials. They would never lie to the American people. Only ‘bit players’ like Marine sergeants, Navy enlisted men, and long-established funeral homes would do that.”

But keep in mind that it is undisputed that several months after the events at Bethesda Naval Hospital, it wasn’t “bit players” consisting of “orderlies, technicians, and casket carriers” who secretly conspired to concoct a fake story about a North Vietnamese attack at the Gulf of Tonkin, with the intent of securing a congressional resolution that would lead to the Vietnam War. Instead, it was the new president of the United States, Lyndon B. Johnson, and the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff, who entered into that secret and deadly conspiracy.

It seems to me that if high government officials would conspire to lie about a military attack that they had to know would bring on a war that would result in the deaths of tens of thousands of American soldiers (and millions of Vietnamese people), high government officials would be fully capable of lying about casket deliveries on the night of November 22, 1963.

The only other explanation for the multiple casket delivery that I can conceive of is a nefarious one, the one that is carefully detailed by Horne in his 5-volume work: that U.S. military officials at the Bethesda morgue, including the autopsy physicians, perhaps following orders based on national security, used the period of time from 6:35 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. on the night of the autopsy to alter the president’s body in order to hide any evidence of wounds resulting from gunshots that came from the front of the president, e.g., from the grassy knoll.

One of the most fascinating stories that Horne describes involves the testimony of Tom Robinson, a member of the Gawler’s embalming team. When Robinson was questioned by the House Select Committee on Assassinations, he made the following cryptic statement:

The time that the people moved (autopsy). The body was taken….and the body never came….lots of little things like that. (Horne, volume 2, page 607.)

Those are not my ellipses. They are also not Horne’s. In fact, neither are the parentheses around the word “autopsy.” That’s exactly how Robinson’s testimony appears in the official transcript of his testimony. As Horne points out, that’s fairly unusual, given that people don’t ordinarily speak using ellipses and parentheses. Those sorts of things are used in written communications, not oral ones.

Because Robinson’s testimony was recorded, Horne decided to look up the tape and listen to the actual recording of Robinson’s testimony. His office located the tape labeled as Robinson’s testimony in the National Archives. Unfortunately, however, the tape contained something else on it, and Horne was not able to locate another tape with Robinson’s testimony on it.

Perhaps I should mention that after Robinson gave his testimony, it was ordered sealed for 50 years, along with testimony provided by other people for the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Keep in mind also that the Warren Commission had ordered many of its records sealed for 75 years. It was only thanks to the JFK Records Act, enacted in the wake of Oliver Stone’s movie JFK, that such records were ordered opened to the public.

If you would like to see the pertinent excerpt from the official transcript of Robinson’s testimony, it is posted here on the Internet.

It might interest you to know that the personnel who participated in Kennedy’s autopsy, both military and civilian, were required by U.S. military officials to sign written oaths of secrecy in which they promised to never reveal what they had witnessed at the autopsy, on threat of court martial or criminal prosecution.

In fact, as Horne pointed out,

A considerable amount of effort by the HSCA’s Chief Counsel, Robert Blakey, was required to get the Pentagon to lift the gag order during the late 1970s. Even then, some participants at the autopsy (such as James Curtis Jenkins) were hesitant to talk about what they had witnessed, and others (such as Jerrol Custer) still stubbornly refused. Many of the enlisted men present in the morgue, as well as civilian photographer John Stringer, have recalled quite vividly the threatening manner in which this letter was delivered to them by CAPT Stover, Humes’ immediate superior and the Commanding Officer of the Naval Medical School at Bethesda. (Horne, volume 1, page xxvii.)

If you would like to see a copy of the oath of secrecy that people were required to sign, it is posted here on the Internet.

Do you now see why the authors of The Kennedy Detail: JFK’s Secret Service Agents Break Their Silence might have chosen to omit a detailed account of what happened at Bethesda Hospital on the evening of November 22, 1963, notwithstanding their promise to “reveal the inside story of the assassination, the weeks and days that led to it and its heartrending aftermath”? Specifically denying Lifton’s (and Horne’s) contention that President Kennedy’s body had been “kidnapped” (the term used by the authors) and omitting any reference whatsoever to Lt. Bird and his Joint Casket Bearer Team, the sum total of the authors’ account of what happened at the Bethesda morgue that night was the following sentence: “There was a presidential suite on the seventeenth floor of the hospital, and as Bill Greer, Roy Kellerman, and Admiral Burkley accompanied the casket to the morgue for the autopsy, Clint Hill and Paul Landis escorted Mrs. Kennedy and her brother-in-law the attorney general to the suite.” (Blaine and McCubbin, Chapters 15 and 22.)

Regardless of whether one believes that President Kennedy was killed by a lone-nut assassin or was the victim of a conspiracy, the American people have a right to know exactly what happened at Bethesda Hospital on November 22, 1963, and why.

Who were the men in blue suits who got out of the black hearse that delivered the president’s body in a shipping casket at 6:35 p.m.? What were their names and who did they work for? Were they Secret Service, FBI, or CIA? Are they still alive and, if so, where are they? Did they file written reports of their actions on that evening and, if so, where are those reports today? Why, when, and how was Kennedy’s body separated from the Dallas casket? Why all the secrecy and deception associated with the delivery of the president’s body into the Bethesda morgue?

Although President John F. Kennedy’s autopsy took place almost 50 years ago, we the people — the citizens of the United States living today — have a right to know everything about what happened on the night of November 22, 1963, and why. Notwithstanding the lapse of almost half a century, U.S. government officials, including those in the Pentagon, the Secret Service, the FBI, and the CIA, have a duty to provide us with the complete truth.

This post was written by: Jacob G. Hornberger

Jacob G. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation. He was born and raised in Laredo, Texas, and received his B.A. in economics from Virginia Military Institute and his law degree from the University of Texas. He was a trial attorney for twelve years in Texas. He also was an adjunct professor at the University of Dallas, where he taught law and economics. In 1987, Mr. Hornberger left the practice of law to become director of programs at the Foundation for Economic Education. He has advanced freedom and free markets on talk-radio stations all across the country as well as on Fox News’ Neil Cavuto and Greta van Susteren shows and he appeared as a regular commentator on Judge Andrew Napolitano’s show Freedom Watch. View these interviews at LewRockwell.com and from Full Context. Send him email.

THE CASKET MYSTERY from KRON's JFK: An Unsolved Mystery 1988

https://youtu.be/aGXUM0y5DwU?si=KxYwgTauOUFiPpgp

 

 

Keven, thank you for the share.

Pretty much tracks with everything I've ever read prior, about the "mystery".  

That said, does there not remain, by detractors, the contention that there was never an opportunity for the conspirators to remove the body from the ornamental Dallas casket to effect the transfer to the shipping casket, before it left Parkland?

Are you aware of any unimpeachable source that stipulated from the moment the body was put into the ornamental casket at Parkland, until it was loaded into AF 1, that a body transfer would have been impossible, either at Parkland or enroute to Love Field?

If it were to be accomplished (somewhere/somehow?) - then I seem to remember that there have been at least two contentions of how the body arrived at the Bethesda morgue in the shipping casket in order to brought in at 6;35 p. m.: (1) It was secreted into a right side forward hold of AF 1, and removed surreptitiously at Andrews AFB, whilst the ornamental casket was being removed, under the lights, from the left rear of the aircraft - with the shipping casket being transported to Bethesda by helicopter; or (2) Flown by a separate aircraft from Dallas, arriving early enough to deliver the shipping casket to Bethesda for the alleged pre-autopsy.  

Lastly, I recently listened to an podcast episode from JFK: The Enduring Secret, contending that there existed two (2) morgues at Bethesda, which were instrumental in allowing the efficacy of the charade, surrounding the casket mystery.

I have no preconceived ideas; just looking for clarification from you and are more learned members, here.  Comments from anyone, are welcome!

17 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Anybody else come across this on YouTube? I listened to podcasts 1 and 4 last night. The series starts out audio only but recent episodes have video as well. He has done about 46 episodes so far so it is quite an investment of the listeners time for sure. Episode 4 about Oswald's whereabouts during the shooting really gets into the details, most of it familiar to folks on the EF.

 

Solving JFK Podcast | JFK Assassination

I have listened to all of the episodes; I don't remember anything that is extremely contentious with what a CT'er is commonly familiar with.  Would you be willing to share your take?

Currently listening to: JFK: The Enduring Secret podcast JFK The Enduring Secret on Apple Podcasts.  My comment on it - as above.

I'm very interested in any of the EF members' opinions on either or both.

19 hours ago, Christian Toussay said:

 

..Which one? I was advised the "Debunking the pareidolia argument" were down, so I reposted them....

Christian, all good now; thank you.

13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

No, he was not, and did not.  Your link did not work for me.  Good chance he ate his cheese sandwich in the domino room, after getting a coke.  Then wandered out front, with Shelly.  Where he finished off the coke.  

Someone shot from the snipers nest.  Quite possibly as a distraction for those below to look up and back (SSA's-Altgens) or a few to hear.  Maybe they hit Connally, no one knows for sure.  I've wondered if those shots were with the Mauser, if the Carcano was a prop, already planted before the assassination.

Who, how did they get away?

Ron, thanks. 

I believe that your theoretical scenario is/was quite feasible.

Any group that planned well enough to assassinate the POTUS was certainly intelligent enough to plan their successful getaway.  

As the TSBD was not secured immediately after the shots, the perpetrator(s) certainly had ample time to exit; either out the back door as some have allegedly witnessed, i.e., a person or persons unknown seemed to have scurried out within a very short time after the shots. 

Alternatively, what do you think of the possibility perpetrator(s) being incognito, e.g., dressed as uniformed DPD officers and/or civilian clothed DPD detectives or some other seemingly possible other identify (with fake IDs), which by just appearance and demeanor alone would have been satisfactory for the real authorities to assume their presence was justified given the commotion at the time?

Might they have had enough time to just casually walk out of the building, back or front, anytime before the building was secured?

18 hours ago, Christian Toussay said:

 

OK, so I posted a distinct thread to rebuke the argument of pareidolia, which is essentially the argument which is/will be brought forth by critics of the results I am presenting here. Refer to this specific thread to understand why the argument simply just do not stand.

 

Continuing our tour of the known/suspected shooting locations in Dealey Plaza, I will post now results obtained on two films showing the Sniper's Nest respectively 10 mns (Bronson film) and 5/10 seconds (Hughes film) before the shooting. The Hughes frames were downloaded from the JFK Lancer site circa 2015, and the Bronson frames were obtained via screen capture of a YouTube video circa 2018.

 

Everybody here knows, I guess, that the foundation of both the WC and HSCA is that LHO fired the shots that killed JFK from the so called Sniper's Nest on the 6th floor of the TSBD. The HSCA did concede that he had help from another shooter on the Knoll, but happily enough, he missed the target so basically that doesn't count...

I guess all JFK researchers, whatever their inclination, have their own scenario for Oswald: so I guess the image posted below, which is a summary of the results obtained on the Sniper's Nest, will not sit well with everybody.

The post is a composite, showing frame 2 from the Bronson film and frame 2 of the Hughes film:

 

 

 

Note that Hughes frame n°2 still presents remnants of the forgery process used to hide this image: note solid dark areas on the right, notably occulting top right part of cap.

The whitish/pinkish blob in the center of the image in what would be the hands area is also very suspicious.

 

This presentation is not about interpretations, but about new data brought forth by a new methodology. Nevertheless, this image not only buries the Lone Nut Theory, but allows us to "re-read" the data in a way that allows answers for old questions and mysteries, if logical thinking is put to use.

I will give one single example:

- Oswald was not in the Sniper's Nest and did not shoot at Kennedy

- so Oswald could not have been present on the 6th floor either, as some suspect: if he had been, he would have been killed on the spot by this DPD officer. Case closed

I will post different versions of results obtained of the Bronson and Hughes film for analysis by serious researchers...

 

Christian,

Thank you for all of your efforts, thus far.  Regrettably, your link did not work for me, either.  Please retry.  

I "don't have any dog in this fight" - just curiosity.

Some examples of Tippit's reported alleged DOA time at Methodist Hospital.

- 1:15 p.m. 

Tippit_Murder (harveyandlee.net)

- 1: 25 p.m.

From Wikipedia (link would not copy/paste)

- 1:30:30 p.m.

J.D. TIPPIT / November 22, 1963 - The Evidence - Timetable of Events (jdtippit.com)

- 1:15 p.m.

- [Autopsy Report on Officer J. D. Tippit, by Earl F. Rose #1] - Page 7 of 28 - The Portal to Texas History (unt.edu)

Lastly (maybe someone has another link/source/reference?), we have the Dallas PD timestamp, heretofore mentioned.

It would seem that Dr. Earl F. Rose would use Officer Tippit's DOA time that was allegedly noted by Dr. Richard A. Liguori, the on-duty Methodist Emergency Room (ER) doctor.  

Would the ER doctor just approximate the DOA time or maybe the ER clock and/or the doctor's watch was off?

Who to believe?

Maybe, "Any port in a storm" ?

15 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

To believe they didn't find a Mauser is to believe the cops couldn't read.

Denny, good one!

Probably just me, as a plain ole citizen firearms owner and casually interested in them, whenever I look at/handle any firearm that is not mine, after ensuing the firearm is clear, the very first thing I do is to naturally look at any nomenclature engraved thereon - you know - the manufacturer, the caliber - that sort of thing.

I'm kind of thinking, that a little later that very same day if someone should ask me what kind of gun I looked at - well, "Gee whillikers, Batman" - I do rightly believe that I'd rightly remember, even if i should "confuse my memory" by say, writing a report on what I saw and/or just happened to sign an affidavit, there about. 

'Course, I cannot comment on what my actions would be if at one time, I had just happened to manage or own a gun store.  Do ya think that maybe all that familiarity with firearms might confuse me?

Almost forgot, gosh.  I guess maybe if I were Dallas, TX, law enforcement officer examining a firearm that could've been used to kill the POTUS, I'd probably be so discombobulated that I'd just report any ole manufacturer/caliber that came to mind.

Whatcha think? 🤪   

22 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks for that insightful response. I had not considered that due to budgetary constraints, marines could not just go to the rifle range whenever they wanted and shoot. Perhaps if they were about to go on an overseas mission, then they would be allowed practice on the rifle range, but unless there was a realistic chance of seeing live action, i guess the marines would have limited access to the rifle range on base. 

With regard to your comment above, you say the skillset between a MC and an M1 are not exactly transferrable. Could the same be said between an M1 and a shotgun? The reason i say this is because Oswald is said to have been a poor shot with a shotgun while he was in Russia, and i just wonder if the practice he had been doing with the M1 while in the marines could have affected his shotgun skills to the point that it degraded them due to his being used to firing the M1.  

Gerry, thanks.

I cannot speak for Oswald, but my skills with either would not necessarily be affected by shooting one of them more than the other.

On 3/22/2024 at 8:11 AM, Gerry Down said:

A few weeks after Oswald first entered the marines, in December 1956, he scored 212, which was slightly above the requirements for the designation of sharpshooter. In May 1959 he scored 191, which reduced his rating to marksman.

In a recent interview Larry Hancock made the point that this may have been because Oswald was practicing more with the rifle in the run up to the Dec 1956 test and so scored better but had been working in radar in the run up to the May 1959 test and so possibly had been practicing less.

As someone who has not served in the military, I was wondering could any marine such as Oswald practice shooting on the shooting range whenever they wanted? I presume a marine would be allowed to practice, and probably specifically encouraged to practice, in the run up to a test such as the one in May 1959. If so, then Oswald had no real excuse for failing to score as a sharpshooter on the May 1959 test. 

I presume there could have been consequences if he had failed he test? Such as being docked pay etc. Or not being allowed to deploy outside the U.S. on any mission. 

LINK (41 minutes 30 seconds): 

 

Gerry,

Excellent question.

Anecdotally, I will weigh in - simply, as a 29 plus years USAF veteran ('61-'90), having had much inter-service interaction with other services' members over those years, with discussions relative to differences in their respective basic training courses to include such topics as initial rifle qualification, as well as annual rifle requalification, thereafter.

I believe Larry's assumption to be correct.  As far as I am aware, each service's initial rifle qualification course is more extensive than the annual qualification course.  Thus, it is not surprising that Oswald's initial qualification score would be better than his subsequent annual score because of the initial qualification training's overall intensity.  Annual qualification training is of the "refresher" type - given the fact that one has previously experienced a "baseline; no need to "begin from scratch".

Over the years, I found it not unusual that not only USAF but also other services' members, experienced their best score on their initial rifle qualification.  The exception to the rule might have been a service member assigned "combat arms" designation, e.g., one sometimes respectfully referred to as a "grunt" or "ground-pounder", i.e., a MOS certified "job" - specifically, as a rifleman, thereby being granted more training/practice than those who are not.  If memory serves, Oswald was a radar operator - having no need undergo specialized rifle training/practice.

Personally, in '61, at 18 years of age, with the M-1 Carbine, never having fired a rifle or pistol before, I scored one point below expert.  Subsequent years proved to be less successful - scoring low in the sharpshooter range.

Before leaving for Vietnam in '66, I had to go through the initial qualification with the USAF'S newly adopted M-16.  I reached one point above expert.  Thereafter, never again - scoring only in the low to mid-range sharpshooter range. 

Fortuitously, in June '61 whilst in basic training at Lackland AFB, TX, on an "extra duty day",  I was assigned to the office of the official USAF Rifle Team whose members competed with other services.  The non-coms there were "extra kind" and treated me as if I were human!.

My duties were light, and I was able to spend most of the day in casual conversation with them, regarding their duties.  For them, along as their other sundry duties were completed, they could pretty much - "practice as much as they wanted".

So, unless Oswald was an official USMC Rifle Team member (I've not aware, if he was), it is much more that highly doubtful that he would have had carte blanche - when it came to range time.  His normal and additional duties time would've precluded extensive practice, not withstanding the fact that budgetary manpower/equipment/ammunition considerations would have also precluded "practicing as much as he wanted".

Even so, let's allow that Oswald clandestinely was somehow able to "practice as much as he wanted" with the M1 Rifle.  How beneficial would that have been, considering the his alleged dastardly deed was done with the MC?  Did some unknown person procure a MC rifle for him to practice?  Not that anyone knows of.

Those with even a rudimentary knowledge of rifle shooting absolutely know that there a huge difference between operating a bolt action rifle versus a semi-automatic.  The experience is not precisely linear nor exactly transferable between the two rifle types.

Oswald's alleged shooting prowess has been much discussed, here and elsewhere.  Personally, I am unaware of anyone, in the "recreations" of the alleged 11/22/63 assassination scenario, equaling Oswald's feat. Those world's expert riflemen were allowed practice shots before the recreation.  Additionally, the alleged MC's condition, as found on 11/22/63's had been markedly "improved) and the exact shooting scenario (height/distance) at a moving target no less, was also "improved".

Do I believe that Oswald could still have "dun it".  I suppose so - as long as someone can show me a study, where, without artificial means, ""pigs can fly".

I only share the above with the thought that it may help to generate some interest/comments in your post.  Further, it is my hope is that one of the members here is a USMC veteran of the late '50s/early '60s era or perhaps knows someone who was and can relay their thoughts/comments, furthering our understanding of USMC rifle qualification' specifics, back in the day.

Gerry, thanks; you contribute much here, and I enjoy your posts.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ron,

First, thanks for studying my presentation.

When I made that presentation, I was still open to the possibility that an encounter between Officer Baker and Oswald did occur on the second floor. However, because of what I found and presented in my Darnell study, I was convinced that the encounter must have occurred significantly later than what the Warren Commission said.

At the time, I was a new researcher and didn't understand the implications of a later encounter. I began reading the statements of Baker and others involved in that story (like Vickie Adams, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley). It was then that I began have doubts that the encounter ever even occurred.

Eight years have passed, and I've believed for most those eight years that there was no such encounter, and that it was just a WC fabrication designed to place Oswald at a certain location at a certain time. Bart Kamp's discovery of the Hosty's P. Parade note was the last nail in that chapter's coffin.

It is clear now that the second floor encounter never occurred, and that Oswald was likely out on the steps of the TSBD during or near the time of the shooting.

 

Thank you; I am much inclined to agree.

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Sorry, but you all are wrong on the path Officer Baker took across Elm Street Extension.

I analyzed this in depth years ago and showed that the path Baker took was, at first, across the street roughly following the crosswalk lines. The crosswalk isn't perpendicular to the road... it runs at an angle. On the TSBD side of the road, the crosswalk ends roughly in front of the mailboxes on the east side of the TSBD entrance. (BTW, coincidentally, the people's shadows lie in approximately parallel to the crosswalk. Because of this, you will see that people crossing the street are walking the direction of the shadows.)

Now, if Baker had continued running in that direction, then Alan Ford would be correct in saying he was headed toward the man waving the long bag, or whatever it is he is waving. However, he does NOT continue running that direction. After passing the man who many identify as Roy Truly, Baker veers to his right. It is easy to see this (see the GIF videos in my presentation) because at the very end of the Darnell clip, Baker is running roughly perpendicular to the camera's view. That's right... we don't see him from behind, but rather from his side! At the end of the clip he is headed toward the Elm/Houston intersection.

Here's my analysis.. it's a quick, easy to follow presentation:

Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?

 

Sandy, thank you for the reminder.  I reread your post and I agree.

Please refresh my memory.  If Baker was not running directly into the TSBD, then would it not be your stance that the "official" timeline for his alleged confrontation with Oswald had to be later than that which has been "officially" established, and therefore seriously put in question the WC's determinations of the subsequent actions of Baker/Truly and other TSBD employees, when trying to identify Oswald's exact location just before/during/after the shots- if the confrontation (with Oswald, that is) happened at all?  I have my doubts that it did.

Thank you.

Gil, another outstanding presentation on your part; thank you!

Me thinks we should prepare ourselves for naysayer responses - just misperceptions, faded memories, kook' affidavits/testimonies, WC photos/illustrations/verbiage tell a different story . . . . . . .

Just curious; assuming at least a young teenager in age, how many males in 1963 do you think would mistake a '61 Ford Falcon for a '62 Ford Thunderbird?

1961 Red Ford Falcons 

1962 Red Ford Thunderbird

How about mistaking a red '57 Plymouth for either the Thunderbird or the Falcon?

1957 Red (mostly) Plymouths

Or a '57 Blue and White Plymouth for any of 'em?

1957 Blue and White Plymouths

On 11/9/2023 at 6:24 AM, Gerry Down said:

I wonder if this incident will form any part of this new book:

Gerry,

Great question - as I believe there is "lots more to see" - re Vinson's story.

Certainly, the C-54 could've easily been CIA, since the agency's "airline", Air America, was covertly owned and operated by it from 1950 to 1976.  During my tour at Tan Son Nhut Air Base (TSNAB), South Vietnam, I served in a reconnaissance wing command post situated on the flight line.

At the time TSNAB was said to be the world's busiest "airport".  Just one example; one early morning, the pilot of one of the wing's RF-101s radioed in that his takeoff would be significantly delayed.  When I queried, "Why?", he responded, "Be advised, I am number 47 in line to be cleared for take-off; nuff said.

Anyway, Air America aircraft/flights were so numerous, we GIs referred to the conflict as, "The CIA's War."

More than likely, the "clerk" who Vinson referred to was a dispatcher in the Andrews AFB, MD Base Operations.  Having served in the capacity at Charleston AFB, SC, prior to my Vietnam tour, his story rings true.

If the C-54 was on a routine flight, i.e., non-covert flight to Colorado, there would be no reason to deny a GI boarding so he could return to his Ent AFB, Colorado Springs unit.

And it is true, that very typically (at least in the U. S. Air Force), the aircraft's crew chief and who also often doubled as the flight engineer would be on board.  Anyone's guess as to why there was not one on that flight, is as good as any. 

I find it curious that the pilots did not say a word to Vinson; having flown as a passenger on a significant number of military aircraft, there is very typically, in the least, a "Welcome aboard, Sarge" from the pilots or some such.

The alleged diversion to the Dallas, TX area after the assassination is also curious.  One would think that if the two guys dressed in beige overalls, who boarded at the dirt strip were associated with the shooting, that there would've be a prearranged flight for them - not one that was diverted to them.  Unless, something went awry with their original escape plan.

The two's complete silence upon boarding and during the flight is also quite unusual; nary even a curt, "Hey, how's in going"?, to Vinson.

I am wondering if the two could've come into play as part of Alan Ford's thread, "The Floor-Laying Crew"?

Most inquisitive of Vinson's story is his recruitment into the CIA, he declining, and then being summarily assigned to the CIA in 1965, when he had only 18 months left on his enlistment before retiring. 

That was quite a departure from the way such "special assignments" (SAs) were processed, back in the day.  Usually, candidates would be informed by the base personnel office that such a SA was available and that the person's records indicated that he/she was eligible.

Then HE/SHE could apply and the "hiring agency" would review the application.  There would be a three years minimum commitment should he/she be accepted.  

Me thinks that the way Vinson's SA was processed was to ensure his secrecy for perpetuity (which of course, was eventually waived).

Complete access to Vinson's military personnel would be quite interesting - and maybe very revelatory.  

From the link - credit John Simkin, Oct. 20, 2004:

" . . . . According to a memo written by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the Warren Commission after Lovelady had been interviewed and photographed in 1964 by FBI agents, Lovelady was reported to have been wearing a short-sleeved red and white, vertically striped shirt. The FBI claimed that he had been photographed in the clothes that he wore on the day of the assassination.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations looked into this issue:

A widely publicized photograph taken by Associated Press photographer James W. Altgens within a few seconds after President Kennedy was first shot shows a spectator who bears a strong physical resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald standing at the west end of the Texas School Book Depository entranceway. Altgens has stated that he took the picture of the presidential limousine, with the Texas School Book Depository entranceway in the background, just after he heard a noise "which sounded like the popping of a firecracker."

Warren Commission critics have charged that there was insufficient basis for this conclusion, and have faulted the Commission for presenting " no supporting visual evidence by which one can appraise the resemblance between Lovelady and the man in the doorway, or Lovelady and Oswald, although nothing less hangs on the accurate identification of the doorway man than Oswald's possible total innocence of the assassination".

This issue has also persisted because of reported discrepancies in connection with the clothing worn by the Altgens figure and Billy Lovelady on November 22, 1963. In media prints of the Altgens photograph, the man appears to be wearing a long-sleeved shirt similar to the one in which Oswald was arrested.

The HSCA went on to argue: Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway.

Lovelady did not appear to be asked about the shirt he was wearing on the day of the assassination by the Warren Commission. According to Michael Benson, Lovelady said he was wearing a red and white stripped shirt. However, the HSCA claimed he was wearing a plaid shirt. Unfortunately, Lovelady was not able to confirm this as he died just before the publication of the HSCA report. He died of a heart-attack aged 42 in January, 1979."

And wasn't there a thread which posited that BL's plaid shirt, in which he posed for the picture, was, perhaps, remade from the same material as the alleged original?

Was that the genesis of the pocket-no pocket discussion?

On 6/21/2023 at 1:16 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

The one, and only, Lee Harvey Oswald. No doppelgangers required.

Jonathan, thanks.

Of course, SS cards in the era contained no photograph.  So, Oswald "modified" his SS card or someone else did it for him.

Was there not a least one thread here where the was a long debate whether or not those two photographs were of the same person - as well as many other photographs purported to be of Oswald with some here agreeing and some dissenting

I am no photography expert or knowledgeable enough to discern if the facial structure/features in all, many, several, or few of all the photographs in question in the aforementioned thread are or are not of Oswald.

FWIW, if memory serves the long-hair photograph (above) and the the one of Oswald with Marina, on the bridge in Minsk appear to be same person, no?

17 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

I looked at Costella combined edit frame by frame. It does not match up at all with your video when I just concentrate on Connally's reaction after coming out from behind the sign.

I have no idea whether your video clip is more to be believed than Costella's. Sounds like another subject for debate. Which evidence is real, not doctored, and worthy of believing?

Pat and Charles - thanks.

Is it possible that Connally's reaction, circa 224 (the wince?) is just part of hearing the first shot, recognizing it as a rifle shot, and thinking, "This is not good" - causing that initial "reaction" as a part of him just  beginning to attempt to digest the scenario, while at the same time unconsciously wincing and maybe just thinking of "ducking" his head and crouching a wee bit, deciding his next move, which was what, turning around to look at JFK?

After Viet Nam, I readily wince and do a "wee duck" as a reflex action - immediately after my brain registers an unexpected and loud noise (bang! of any sort), especially what I think or know to be a gunshot; and I maintain that for a second or two before deciding, "All good."

And wasn't Connally's best judgement that he was hit at 234?

Not ever having been hit in the back by rifle bullet, I cannot say definitely that I would be yelling out at that instant.  'Twould seem the shock would prevent that for a second or two assuming one remained conscious.

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Was he naked?

Was his head wrapped with a couple of towels?

Was his body wrapped in a sheet?

Was it James Jenkins or Paul O'Connor again?

I can only find one man & his name was James E.Metzler.

Enquiring minds wanna know.

Michael, thanks.  Dunno if these might be helpful.

Gainesville man recalls JFK autopsy (ocala.com)

Paul O'Conner -Specifically:

"The casket he was put in in Dallas was not the same one he came to Bethesda in," he said. "And I understand from talking with people at the emergency room in Dallas that he was not placed in a body bag. When he got to us he was in a body bag."

When Kennedy's body arrived on O'Connor's table, it was in a body bag. Unzipped, the bag revealed a gruesome sight.

"I looked at it and said, 'My Lord in heaven.' It looked like a bomb went off inside his head," he said. "My primary role was to get the body in and log it in, which I did, and then I was going to remove the brain. But there was no brain. Most of it was blown out."

And:

ARRIVAL AT BETHESDA (whokilledjfk.net)

Sibert and O'Neill:

" . . .This author estimates that Sibert and O'Neill, along with Greer and the ambulance, arrived at the morgue entrance just prior to 7:17 PM. Sibert told the ARRB that he and O'Neill assisted Greer and Kellerman in taking the ornamental bronze casket into the anteroom of the morgue at about 7:17 PM [15, p. 45; p. 50]. In their interview with Specter, both agents said that "preparations for the autopsy" occurred at approximately 7:17 PM [12, p. 2]. . ."

And:

The Kennedy Casket Conspiracy – The Future of Freedom Foundation (fff.org)

Dennis David - specifically:

" . . . What did the casket look like? David stated that it was a simple, gray shipping casket similar to the ones commonly used in the Vietnam War. . . "

And:

ARRB MD 64 - O'Connor-Purdy HSCA Interview (8/29/77) (maryferrell.org)

Paul O'Connor - again - specifically:

. . . . O'Connor said the casket was a pink shipping casket and it arrived at approximately at eight o'clock.  He said the body was wrapped in a body bag, and the head was wrapped in a sheet . . . "

14 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Thanks. Though Connally seems very unsure of the numbers here. 

And:

Connallys John B Jr and Nellie (archive.org)

Specifically:

Governor Connally believes, as nearly as he can judge it, that the bullet struck him in the 234th frame. This is at least nine frames and one half second later than the Commission says he was hit. He might. Connally admits, possibly have been hit a frame or two earlier but no more. “Having looked at frames 233 to 235,“ he said to LIFE, “I can begin to sec myself slump in 234. The slump is very pronounced in 235. I am hunched. It looks as if my coat is pulled away from my shirt. My mouth is elongated. I don’t think there is any question that my reaction to the shot begins in this time sequence."

10 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Gerry, thanks.

Don't know if you find this helpful.

The Testimony of John B. Connally (jfk-assassination.net)

Specifically:

Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?
Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?
Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.
Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

 

 

And: 

What Caused Connally's Lapel Flap? : The JFK Assassination (22november1963.org.uk)

Specifically:

Conclusion: Identifying the Culprit

Wecht and Milam conclude that the lapel flap was almost certainly caused by the most obvious candidate, a gust of wind:

• Records at Love Field airport, close to downtown Dallas, show the steady wind speed to have been around 13 knots, or 15 miles per hour, with gusts (HSCA Report, appendix vol.8, pp.173–182).
• Films and photographs of the motorcade show the flags on the presidential limousine flapping, and several of the occupants holding onto their hair and hats from time to time.

In conclusion, the experimental evidence refutes rather than supports the notion that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were wounded almost simultaneously at frame 224 of the Zapruder film. The single–bullet theory remains just as implausible as ever.

15 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Where did he say this?

Gerry, thanks.

Don't know if you find this helpful.

The Testimony of John B. Connally (jfk-assassination.net)

Specifically:

Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?
Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?
Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.
Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

5 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

You don't know that Oswald carried the bag tucked under his armpit. You are taking Frazier's word for this and are rejecting Dougherty's clear, adamant recollection that Oswald had nothing in his hands when he entered the TSBD. 

And if the paper bag in evidence is the one Oswald carried, and if Oswald carried the disassembled Carcano in that bag, why was there not one speck of oil in/on the bag? 

Michael, Bill, Gil, et al - thanks.

Going with the supposition that Oswald did carry his lunch to work that morning in what has been described as the typical 27 inch department store bag/sack, could he not, for whatever reason, just cupped the bottom with his hand and tucked the top under his armpit - to have both hands available to zip up his jacket?

I would think that even a 27 inch bag/sack with just a small lunch therein, would collapse easily so as to fit in the crook of his arm, whilst doing so. Just a thought.

No, I don't reject Oswald "ditching" the bag or Dougherty misremembering.  Oh, for a good TSBD CCTV system back then!