Mark Ulrik

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Why not assume Curry specifically inquired of the FBI if "steel jacketed" bullets were used as that is exactly what Curry meant, given what was found in LHO's possession (the Walker backyard photo) and the steel-jacketed slug recovered that day, ID'ed as a 30.06?

Now, that's a stretch! For starters, why would Curry think that a seemingly random photo of a house was relevant, and why would he associate it with Walker?

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU-

I do not think any police detectives, examining CE573, would call that a "steel jacketed bullet."  CE573 is the very textbook photo of a copper jacketed bullet, with the jacketing torn asunder. 

Then, Chief Curry on Nov. 29 opined that the JFKA was accomplished with steel jacketed bullets, and asked the FBI to confirm whether relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets were used in the JFKA...when he only meant the common copper jacketed bullets?

Did Curry personally examine any of the bullet evidence? It seems to me that he was using "steel-jacketed" colloquially, but you should probably try to find his original statement. Where did you get the idea that he asked the FBI to confirm anything?

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben where did you get this:

"Another interesting aspect is Chief Curry publicly opining that JFK was shot with "steel jacketed" bullets, and he was trying to confirm that with the FBI by Nov. 29. "

Don't recall that one, interesting as heck.

I'm afraid it's my fault. I posted the news item below to show Ben that even a police chief can make errors of terminology (although he may have been misquoted by the reporter). We don't know exactly what was said or how "soon after the shooting" it was. Curry's opinion may have been based on the behavior of the bullets, but especially after the discoveries on the 6th floor, it should have been obvious that jacketed ammo was used.

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I think Michael Griffith makes a lot of sense when he points out that resorting to a controlled demolition doesn't make much sense. The added task of setting up the explosive devices/materials would add to the expense and make it much more likely that the perpetrators would get caught.

On the other hand, William, Michael, and others make the valid point that random fires and explosives cannot result in a symmetrical collapse of a building. If the building collapsed at all, it would have happened slowly, randomly, and asymmetrically.

The real mystery in the case, therefore, is why did the perpetrators bother to do the controlled demolition?

Why do a demolition at all? Wouldn't it be enough to damage the building beyond repair?

8 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Hey, Mark. Since you seem to know about this stuff more than I, perhaps you can help me with something that's been bugging me for more than a decade. The Archives allowed the late John Hunt to scan the rifle lift, and John kindly shared his scan with me on this forum. What's been bothering me is the line of black marks in the bottom right hand corner of the lift. These marks appear to be letters of some kind. I spent hours trying to figure out what they said. But when I backed away from my obsession I realized that these letters would have to be minuscule. So I then went to theory number two--that they were artifacts of some type. Any ideas? 

That's an amazing version of CE637. Thanks for the confidence, Pat, but I'm sure I'm not more qualified to render an opinion than anyone else. FWIW, they don't look too much like letters to me. There are similar spots in the left side of the image, right? it would be surprising to find letters in those places, and as you said, they would also have to be very tiny. That part of the barrel obviously wasn't particularly smooth or clean, but exactly what the spots represent is hard for me to say.

19 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Mark, that is the same photo. In working with my copy I had to save it several times and jpg photos do degrade the more copies you make. Making a newer copy for people to look at is beneficial though, thank you.

I'm sorry about not reading your post more carefully. The repeating patterns are clearly there, so (unless they can be explained as compression artefacts), it seems likely that someone (digitally) retouched that area of the image.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

MU---

So...do you think there is reasonable doubt that CE573 is in fact the "steel jacketed" 30.06 slug the DPD detectives thought they recovered from the Walker home on April 10, 1963? 

I don't think there is reasonable doubt that CE573 is the slug that was recovered from the Walker home on April 10, 1963.

There's a better version here, without the lines.

48 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I am trying to get the 24 NARA hi-rez photos of CE573 downloaded. 

Gary Murr has seen the photos, and he says there is no word "DAY" on the obviously copper-jacketed slug, CE573.

Because I sent them to him, and yeah, of course we wouldn't expect to see Day's name in those 2014 photographs when it wasn't found in 1979 when the bullet was examined under a microscope in the FBI lab. I had to refresh my memory, but these are the markings that were found:

[DPD evid. box, lid] "4-10-63 4011 Turtle. CK  Burg by F. A.  BGB RF JH Q188"

[DPD evid. box, ins. btm.] "Day 7640"

[DPD evid. box, outs. btm.] "7640 Day", "Q188" and "Rm"

[Bullet] "Q188", "N", "B", "J", "D", "A", "O" (or "D"), "JH" and "RF"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10040#relPageId=10

Steve Roe has also written about this.

25 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

BUT...I think you started this by mentioning that Day supposedly signed the original bullet. IF the FBI's earliest photos prove the bullet sent to D.C. was not signed, well, then, that might be the final nail in the coffin for the "Walker bullet" placed into evidence.

It's not my impression that he was examining the actual bullet when he told the WC that it had "Day" scratched in it, so perhaps his memory played a trick and only a single letter was used on that occasion. It would also be interesting to see photographs of original evidence containers such as envelopes. There is a published John Hunt photo of the pill box used for Q1 (CE399), so there may be one for Q188 as well, although I suppose those pill boxes were supplied by the FBI lab.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But why? Why would Curry suspect steel jacketed bullets?

Not sure how to explain this to you. He was speculating about the bullet in question (not sure which one, but obviously not CE573) being some type of metal jacketed bullet, and the reporter got a nice little story out of it.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DPD Detective Van Cleave then told reporters from at least four different news organizations, including the AP, that the bullet recovered was a "30.06."

Wow. Does that obvious bit of speculation carry more weight if more than one "news organization" was present? The thought of the good detective being able to, on the spot, identify the caliber of a lump of metal that came out through a wall, is frankly ridiculous. As I'm sure you know, one of the police reports stated that the bullet was of "unknown caliber". Can't you see how inconsistent it is to consider the report misleading on that particular point and at the same time firmly believe that "steel-jacketed" was accurate?

17 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

official government investigations have failed to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt

That's pretty harsh for an AI. They are usually more diplomatic.

This is getting too silly.

44 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Those were and are unusual bullets. The author you cite is not conflating copper-jacketed and steel-jacketed bullets. No one minimally knowledgable about ammo does.

There was no conflating of steel- and copper-jacketed bullets in the 1960s or now. The author you cite specifically mentioned a type of bullet less prone to fragmenting---a specialty military bullet. 

You're talking about the "Family Physician" column. That (and the small Jesse Curry item) were found in a quickie search at the Texas History portal. It's pretty clear that the good doc is comparing hollow point and FMJ ammo but is using the term "steel-jacketed" instead of FMJ. Searching for 1950-69 articles containing "copper-jacketed bullet" yields 346 hits on newspapers.com compared to 900 for "steel-jacketed bullet". How many of the articles that are using the latter as a generic term for a FMJ (or any type of metal-jacketed) bullet I haven't tried to figure out, but probably more than a few. I'll give you this, though, from The Times, November 30, 1963. It seems (at least to me) that "steel-jacketed" is used generically here, either by Curry himself or by the journalist.

Bedtime for me now. Perhaps more later.

28 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks, Tom. I haven't studied the Walker shooting much and have never seen that photo before. Am I seeing this right? Is that black circle below the painting a supposed hole created by a badly-mashed rifle bullet that had hit a window frame upon entering a room, traveled across that room, missed Walker, and passed through the wall behind him? Well, if so, how does a badly-mashed bullet exit a wall by leaving a nice little hole? 

If this is indeed the supposed exit of the bullet on the far side of the wall behind Walker, and the bullet was indeed found "between" some stacks of paper, then it is 100% clear to me the shooting was staged. 

56 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

I’d be a lot more inclined to believe Robert Frazier excuse if there was anything resembling corroboration from the investigating officers.

By "excuse" you mean the explanation that some people commonly refer to (fmj) rifle bullets as steel-jacketed? I don't find that hard to believe at all, especially in Texas 60+ years ago.

7 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I'm guessing you haven't read the recent research on Oswald's whereabouts during the shooting either.

There is no way, no way, he could have gotten from the sixth-floor window to the second-floor lunchroom in time to avoid being seen by Truly, who was running ahead of Baker. No way. This is not to mention the people who were on or near the stairs who also would have seen or heard Oswald coming down them, but did not. This is covered well in JFK Revisited.

Even the super careful, uber cautious Anthony Summers makes a strong case that Oswald was not on the sixth floor during the shooting. You might start with his section on Oswald's whereabouts at 12:30 on 11/22.

I haven't read JFK Revisited, but this seems to be a completely separate issue. Will you admit that the mysterious 6th floor shooter, whoever it was, could plausibly have managed to put on his brownish shirt in less than 90 seconds?

54 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Even with this easy out Dominion settlement Fox News will never be looked at again with anything resembling genuine news ethics trust and respect.

Same with Carlson.

One can only hope. He also seemed clueless about the JFKA.

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

Brennan's description of the gunman's clothing matches that given by four other witnesses who reported seeing a man in the window. Brennan and the other witnesses described the man's shirt as a regular "light-colored" shirt. However, Oswald did not wear a light-colored shirt to work that day. He wore a brown, rust-colored shirt that day, and he was seen in that shirt in the second-floor lunchroom less than ninety seconds after the shots were fired.

Use your imagination. Despite the unusual circumstances, it's hardly an impossible feat to put on a shirt in 90 seconds.

19 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Do you know if the current archive catalog photos are the same photos taken during the 1979 exam? There were supposedly 24 photos included as an enclosure to the copy of the report in the 62-109060 JFK HQ file. 

I know the NIST photos are a different thing but I’m curious if the 1979 photos are available anywhere. Hell they might be on MFF but I’m sure that’d just be crappy B&W photocopies. 

I have no idea about the 1979 photos, sorry. Maybe someone like Gary Murr does. He's one of the finest researchers around and very knowledgeable about the bullet evidence. The NIST photos are from 2014.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I guess NARA has 20 hi-rez photos of CE573 online, but navigating their website has flummoxed me. I have sent an e-mail to NARA asking for help.

They'll probably tell you to download the multi-part archive (446 GB in total) and decompress it. It will require disk space and patience but is perfectly doable. Mai Tais are optional. Roughly 1/20 are image files; the rest is 3D measurement data. The images of CE573 are from 5 different angles and also taken at different exposures. Not all areas of the bullet's surface are covered and in sharp focus, so expect the hunt for markings to be a frustrating one.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

M Ulrik:

What is the size of that "N"?

Is it an "N" or a "V" next to a smear of some sort? 

The "N" is only a couple of mm tall. Not sure where you see the smear.

22 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Mark Ulrik- a 30.06 is visually larger than a 7.65 MC rifle. and as I recall, a 30-30 was a common rifle in the 60s. even my father who was not a hunter- had one.  

Well, a .30-06 bullet would be about 1 mm larger in diameter than the 6.5x52 mm Carcano bullet, but even if you happened to bring a measuring device with you, how would you go about measuring a bullet as badly damaged as CE 573?

The weapon wasn't available for inspection, I'm afraid, and it would seem that the detectives at the scene erred on the side of familiarity if they assumed it was a .30-06.

 

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Mark U---

As a 13-year veteran of the DPD, McElroy was probably knowledgable about ID'ing bullets and proper terminology.

I do not know Ira Van Cleave's record, but usually people join a police force, then "graduate" to superior positions, such as detectives, if they are smart guys. 

I would wager McElroy and Van Cleave were both smart guys, collecting evidence at the scene of an attempted murder of a very high profile public figure. 

I would wager against two detectives, under such circumstances, looking at a mangled copper-jacketed bullet and then calling it a relatively rare "steel jacketed" bullet, in an official police report. 

Maybe I would lose that bet. But I would give about 30-to-1 odds.

You're certainly milking that misnomer for all it's worth. You didn't address my question of how Van Cleave (or anyone) would have been able to determine the caliber of that bullet. I doubt that even Lieutenant Columbo could have done it, and he was a pretty smart guy.

42 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, Ira Van Cleave evidently told the Austin paper, as well as The New York Times, that the bullet in the Walker home was a "30.06." I wish he was alive so we could ask him why he was sure of that ID. The WC never asked Val Cleave anything.

Who says he was sure? How could he possibly have been? Do you believe anything you read in the papers?

44 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DPD detectives Van Cleave and McElroy authored and signed an April 10 official police report that the bullet was "steel jacketed."

I wish we could go back in time and teach them the proper terminology.