Mark Ulrik

Still Stuck on Steel

7 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

after 46 interviews with Marina where she does not disclose her alleged conversations with her dead husband about the walker shooting.

4 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

I dont believe this is a case of her failing to tell the government that she knew her husband took a pot shot at Waker

Didn't you tell us a few moments ago that she failed 46 times?

@Lawrence Schnapf Is it difficult to imagine Marina being less than cooperative because she was afraid the truth could be used against her? Back in the Soviet Union, she would likely have faced serious trouble if it was discovered that she had failed to report on her husband for having tried to shoot a political figure. The defense lawyerly temptation to attack her claims is understandable, I guess, but pretty weak sauce (IMO).

4 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Mark, thanks.

Understood.

Would you want to share your views?

It's good of you to ask, but they're not that interesting 🤠

59 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

Mark, thanks.

Perhaps you right about the package being Oswald's prop and then being discarded, when out of Frazier's sight and before Dougherty saw him entering the building.  Maybe Gil or those more learned here can enlighten us on that possibility.

And, the length estimates were accompanied by descriptions - re the manner of carry, confirming them.  So, we have that. 

Could we allow for the possibility that Dougherty's memory of that day was conflated with his memories of other days that Oswald entered the building.  And, therefore the  "nothing in his (Oswald's) hands".  I thought he brought his lunch that day.  Where was that package (sack) - stuffed in a jacket pocket?

Hi Ron. I was just trying to summarize Gil's post. I disagree with almost everything in it.

According to Gil, the REAL reason Oswald went to Irving Thursday evening was to make up with Marina. I guess it just couldn't wait another day. Gil doesn't completely dismiss the curtain rod story, but suggests it was mainly a fib to conceal private matters from "nosy kid" Buell. According to Gil, it wouldn't even have made sense for Oswald to bring a rifle to work that Friday without even knowing that JFK would be driving through Dealey Plaza (citing Jarman). Gil doesn't rule out that Oswald brought a package to work that morning, but doubt that it actually made it into the building (citing Dougherty). Maybe it was just a throwaway prop intended to satisfy nosy kid Buell? In any case, Gil is convinced that the package couldn't have contained a rifle, due to the length estimates provided by Buell and his sister being "so precise" that they must have been accurate.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

At work now, will source later. Tom Gram?

Believe me, no one disputes all four officers marked the slug. 

I'm afraid that's not correct.

That's a very good question

I like your hunch, Greg. My hunch tells me that it's possible to overestimate the significance of multiple signatures on police reports. In many cases, the co-signer is probably happy to sign almost anything if it saves him from doing the paperwork himself.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

We are of different perceptions on many issues regarding the Walker incident, but that is what a forum is for.

I asked in the Walker Bullet article thread what you guys think happened with the bullet that went through the wall. (Cue the crickets.)

47 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik are you referrfing to Steve Roe?  Didnt he write a piece last week or am i confusing this with anothe article?

I think the emphasis on "steel" flows from the FBI memo that indicates steel-jacketed bullets were often soft-nosed.

would it be more "humane" to kill with a FMJ to the head than to fire soft-nosed bullets that create so much damage but might not kill the animal.  As you probably suspect, I think killing animals for fun is immoral so I dont understand why its ok to use a bullet that is designed to maime as to opposed a FMJ that can create a "clean" kill.   A bit off topic but would like to understand better this view.     

I was, indeed, referring to Steve Roe. His latest piece was in response to an article by Greg Doudna.

I've never hunted a day in my life and have mixed feelings about the concept, but my father was a hunter. Albeit as far from the reckless, trigger-happy sort as you can imagine. He's not around anymore, though, so I asked ChatGPT instead why it is a bad idea to use FMJ ammo for deer hunting:

Quote

Using Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) ammunition for deer hunting is generally considered a bad idea for several reasons:

1) Lack of Expansion: FMJ bullets are designed to penetrate targets without expanding or deforming upon impact. This lack of expansion means that FMJ bullets often pass through the target without transferring a significant amount of energy. As a result, they may not deliver a quick, humane kill.

2) Over-Penetration: FMJ bullets have a higher tendency to over-penetrate, meaning they can pass through the target and potentially continue traveling with significant velocity. This poses a safety risk because the bullet may travel beyond the intended target and potentially cause unintended damage or injury.

3) Limited Tissue Damage: Due to their design, FMJ bullets typically create smaller wound channels and cause less tissue damage compared to hunting-specific bullets. Effective deer hunting requires a bullet that can deliver sufficient energy and create a broad wound channel, which is more likely to result in a quick and humane kill.

4) Legal and Ethical Concerns: Many states have regulations in place that require hunters to use ammunition specifically designed for hunting. These regulations are intended to promote ethical hunting practices and ensure the humane treatment of animals. Using FMJ ammunition for hunting may violate these regulations, leading to legal consequences.

For deer hunting, it is generally recommended to use ammunition specifically designed for hunting, such as soft-point or expanding bullets. These bullets are designed to expand upon impact, transferring energy to the target and creating a larger wound channel, which increases the chances of a clean and ethical kill. Always consult and comply with local hunting regulations to ensure you are using the appropriate ammunition for your specific hunting situation.

On 6/9/2023 at 7:12 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik- the DPD under Fritz was not known for its evidence-based approach to solving crimes. He had a reputation and bragged about using his interrogations for getting confessions.

so again, dont assume the reference to a steel-jacketed bullet is wrong because an arrest was made. Your energy has been focused on refuting the statements of four DPD, and other law enforcement as outlined by @Benjamin Cole and @Tom Gram   How about evaluating the case with the bullet in evidence now in question. do you think the rest of the case supports that LHO was the person who took a potshot at Walker or is the bullet the critical piece of evidence in your opinion?

This would be a more productive discssion. Does this change the dynamics in the case in your opinion. Afterall, the bullet in evidence could not be linked to the assassination rifle in record to the exclusion of any other rifle.   

Thank you for asking. As we all know, the steel vs. copper controversy has been around for decades, and I don't see how the recent K&K article really changes anything. I agree that the efforts by the WC and FBI to get to the bottom of the steel vs. copper affair were in some respects underwhelming, but the more speculative parts of the article were very unconvincing. But let's wait for Steve's review.

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Indeed, the hoose-gow was the terminus for hunting with a steel-jacketed bullet in Maryland in 1945. 

See this: https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn88065202/1946-11-28/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1940&index=14&rows=20&words=bullets+jackets+steel&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext="steel-jacketed+bullet"&y=13&x=19&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2

The emphasis on "steel" is still odd to me. It makes little difference to the deer what kind of metal the jacket is made of. What really makes a difference is whether it's a soft-nosed hunting bullet or a military-style FMJ bullet. Hunting game like deer with FMJ ammo is just a big no-no.

55 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

the Myers father/son team

The Haags?

Ben, as stated in my first reply, we can't even be certain that Curry said "steel-jacketed". But it wouldn't matter even if he had said "banana-jacketed" because he got his answer in the form of that 11/23 FBI report identifying all the JFK bullet specimens as copper-jacketed. It would make zero sense for him a week later to be waiting for "confirmation" that those bullets were anything other than copper-jacketed. Am I talking Chinese here?

1 minute ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Mark Ulrik NAA? I didnt mention NAA? Curry has nothing to do with NAA. 

OK, then you must've been talking about other "developments". How are they relevant here?

22 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

@Michael Griffith you are correct. most of the supporters of the official position have not kept up with the developments and remain frozen in time circa 1964. 

Let's try to stay on topic for a change. Not everything in this case is about NAA testing.

12 hours ago, George Govus said:

I had to go look and see the cover of this book, and what was the typeface font size. Once a graphic designer... There's one new copy listed for sale on Amazon (U.S.). Limited Collector's Edition, classic sixties design, $299. And used copies, too.

Curry's book is pretty common, and it shouldn't be hard to find a moderately priced copy on eBay. I own a couple myself. The "limited" edition is the only one, btw.

9 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This stuff is decades behind the information curve. The stretcher bullet now in evidence does not resemble the description of the bullet that was originally found. And, NAA testing actually proved that the fragments could have come from any number of FMJ bullets, not just WCC bullets.

That's lovely, but not exactly on-topic.

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And MU, do not go hunting in Wood Buffalo National Park with your 30.06 rifle armed with steel-jacketed bullets!

Well, isn't that a bummer. OK, maybe it wasn't as unimaginable as I thought that you actually could get arrested in Maryland in 1945 for hunting deer with steel-jacketed bullets.

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

November 23  

On November 23, Chief Curry received a memo from the FBI.

The FBI memo identifies Q1 (to become the Warren Commission’s CE399, aka ‘the Magic Bullet”), the slug found on the floor in Parkland Hospital, as a copper-jacketed 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher Carcano bullet. The use of the words “Mannlicher Carcano” is odd, since CE399 is a Western Cartridge bullet, and Mannlicher Carcano did not make ammo. 

The FBI memo also identified fragment of bullets found in the presidential limo as copper-jacketed.

November 29 

Yet on November 29, Chief Jesse Curry told the Associated Press (AP), the national news wire service, that "in his opinion the bullets [that struck President Kennedy] were steel jacketed, but he said this was not confirmed to him [by the FBI].”

In light of the fact that Curry had received an FBI memo on November  23 that the Parkland Hospital bullet, that is the soon-to-be CE399, and some limo-bullet fragments were copper-jacketed, this statement by Curry is puzzling. 

Why would Chief Curry, one week after the murder of JFK, opine to a national news media organization that the bullets that struck the President—which Curry had never seen, or examined, and which were still an FBI “secret”—were relatively rare steel-jacketed bullets, rather than the industry norm, standard and very common copper-jacketed bullets?

And this was after Curry received the November 23 FBI memo indicating copper-jacketed bullets were involved in the JFKA. 

You've got the timing horribly wrong, Ben. According to the AP article, it was soon after the shooting that Curry said that in his opinion the bullets were steel-jacketed, etc. It's not known if he actually said "steel-jacketed" or it was a misquote, but he went on to say that it had not been confirmed to him. This tells us that he almost certainly hadn't yet received the 11/23 FBI memo identifying the bullet specimens as copper-jacketed. It would seem that the AP reporter, not knowing about the memo, simply assumed that Curry was still waiting for a response when they wrote that "the type of bullets used to shoot JFK a week ago remained a secret of the FBI."

NB! It feels a bit harsh to criticize the FBI for using the expression "Mannlicher-Carcano rifle bullet." The stretcher bullet (Q1) and limo fragments (Q2+3) were ballistically matched to the TSBD rifle (K1) identified as a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (a slight misnomer for the Carcano rifle) whereas the TSBD cartridges and cases (Q6+7+8) were easily identified by their headstamp as having been manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.

More later, if I can summon the energy. Ben has the Mai Tai advantage.

[I have a few comments but no time right now]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There are many many reasons why people who work with ammo draw clear distinctions between copper-jacketed bullets and steel-jacketed bullets.

The arrest mentioned in the article would've made more sense (at least to me) if "steel jacket" were replaced with "full metal jacket," so I still suspect it was a misnomer.

From the 2010 codes and statutes for the state of Maryland:

Quote

§ 10-416. Deer hunting - Prohibited methods.

(a)  Use of automatic firearms and certain bullets.-  

(1) A person may not hunt deer in the State with any automatic firearm. In this subsection, an automatic firearm means a firearm designed to fire, or which is mechanically altered to fire, 2 or more shots with 1 continuous pressure on the trigger. 

(2) A person may not use full metal-jacketed, incendiary, or tracer bullets in hunting deer in the State. However, the use of metal-jacketed bullets designed to expand on impact is not prohibited. 

(3) A person may not hunt deer with any firearm that uses an ammunition clip holding more than 8 cartridges or bullets. In this paragraph, "ammunition clip" includes a cartridge or bullet holder called a banana clip. 

https://law.justia.com/codes/maryland/2010/natural-resources/title-10/subtitle-4/10-416

8 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Why would Marina's rebuff have caused him to want to shoot JFK? That's about the silliest motive I've ever seen floated.

Have you read this article?
Lee Oswald / Study in Psychopathology

18 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

2. Hunters often use jacketed bullets with a lead nose, a nose that expands on impact and is more likely to down the target. 

Well, I believe that's the main argument for outlawing FMJ ammo for hunting. You don't want the animal to suffer more than necessary. You also don't want the bullet to just punch through and hit something (or someone) else. What's your argument for outlawing steel jackets? They cause forest fires?

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The vast majority of deer hunters use a copper-jacketed bullet with a lead nose. 

Yes, because they prefer to kill as quickly and effectively as possible. It conceivable that they're also legally prohibited (at least in parts of the US) from using FMJ ammo.