Duke Lane Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 You seem to want to know where the train is. (The train that just went by. )Here you are: That's definitely the tail end of a train, i.e., a boxcar ... but is it moving or stationary?If it's moving, how long after the shooting was this frame taken, and how fast would a train have to have been moving to get to where it is in this image by then? Another look: We still have the question about whether [a] the train is stationary or moving (you've marked it "receding," meaning moving), and if it's moving, how far had it moved and from where, IOW could it have been a train that might have passed over the TU at about the time of the assassination?I've asked Bill Miller - and anyone else who might know - when the above frame was taken in relation to the shooting, and he quoted me Lee Bowers' testimony about cops coming into the RR yards "right away" and him ordering the trains to stop. I think it's fair to say that nothing happened "instantaneously," so if this image was shot within, say, one second of the shooting, two things are true: [a] Lee Bowers hadn't stopped anything yet, and no train could've stopped that fast anyway, and the train, if it had been moving and had been on the bridge, could not have covered that distance from the bridge in so short a time unless it was really a-blowin' an' a-goin'. On the other hand, if it was taken five minutes afterward, it's not so easy to reach a conclusion. Also, absent another frame that shows the boxcar in a different position, do we know it's moving at all? Just because you take a picture of the front of me, it doesn't mean I'm "walking toward you." Even still, trains were being moved about in the yard - the world didn't stop for the motorcade - and this could be one of those. J.C. White is the only witness who mentioned a "long, noisy train" going by at the exact moments of the shooting, which, he said, effectively made him "not a witness" since it blocked both his view and his hearing (tho' there is testimony to contradict him); nobody else even mentions a train in connection with the bridge. But if White is correct - and if J.W. Foster's recollection 35 years later is true - would this not also mean that the train would have blocked any view of the so-called "rifle toss?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) . Edited July 28, 2007 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Nobody denies that three Pullman cars were parked on a siding...WITHOUT LOCOMOTIVE. MOTIONLESS. NOISELESS. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Nobody denies that three Pullman cars were parked on a siding...WITHOUT LOCOMOTIVE.MOTIONLESS. NOISELESS. Jack Jack - you are dealing with people who had already come out denouncing Hoffman's story before ever even reading his book - you are wasting your time trying to educate those who didn't care to seek it before voicing their conclusions. I just read where one asked if the trains are moving .... well, Bell turned his film off and panned back to that area close to a minute after JFK left the plaza, so are the objects still there or have they moved on - not a tough call! Just during the 5 to 6 seconds those objects are seen in the Bell film through the tower poles - they move not a single foot from what I observed. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Nobody denies that three Pullman cars were parked on a siding...WITHOUT LOCOMOTIVE. MOTIONLESS. NOISELESS. Testimony of Patrolman Earle V. Brown, stationed atop the railroad overpass above Stemmons Freeway: Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Where? Mr. Brown. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road. ... It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn off Elm and go up. ...Where I was was the railroad overpass. Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass? Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards. ... Mr. Ball. Did you have the railroad yards in sight? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir: ... Mr. Ball. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards? Mr. Brown. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out. Mr. Ball. But you did not see people standing? Mr. Brown. No, sir; sure didn't. Mr. Ball. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards? Mr. Brown. Yes. Mr. Ball. What? Mr. Brown. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view. Mr. Ball. Was that because of the moving trains? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that? ... Mr. Brown. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped. Mr. Ball. Where? Mr. Brown. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. Ball. Did it come to a complete stop? Mr. Brown. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. Ball. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. Brown. Yes; slowed down. ... Mr. Ball. Did you search any part of the area [after the shooting]? Mr. Brown. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did. Mr. Ball. Where were any cars parked? Mr. Brown. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building. Mr. Ball. You took the license numbers? Mr. Brown. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers. I've left in the part about the limo slowing/stopping mainly to illustrate the extent of the view from where Officer Brown and his partner James Lomax were on the bridge, and the last part about the license plate numbers just because it's interesting. There is at least one other person who'd also testified to trains moving about in the railroad yards (I'll post that once I find it), but once again, nobody described one going over the TU except for Officer White. Edited July 28, 2007 by Duke Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Nobody denies that three Pullman cars were parked on a siding...WITHOUT LOCOMOTIVE. MOTIONLESS. NOISELESS. Testimony of Patrolman Earle V. Brown, stationed atop the railroad overpass above Stemmons Freeway: Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Where? Mr. Brown. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road. ... It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn off Elm and go up. ...Where I was was the railroad overpass. Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass? Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards. ... Mr. Ball. Did you have the railroad yards in sight? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir: ... Mr. Ball. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards? Mr. Brown. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out. Mr. Ball. But you did not see people standing? Mr. Brown. No, sir; sure didn't. Mr. Ball. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards? Mr. Brown. Yes. Mr. Ball. What? Mr. Brown. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view. Mr. Ball. Was that because of the moving trains? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that? ... Mr. Brown. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped. Mr. Ball. Where? Mr. Brown. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. Ball. Did it come to a complete stop? Mr. Brown. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. Ball. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. Brown. Yes; slowed down. ... Mr. Ball. Did you search any part of the area [after the shooting]? Mr. Brown. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did. Mr. Ball. Where were any cars parked? Mr. Brown. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building. Mr. Ball. You took the license numbers? Mr. Brown. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers. I've left in the part about the limo slowing/stopping mainly to illustrate the extent of the view from where Officer Brown and his partner James Lomax were on the bridge, and the last part about the license plate numbers just because it's interesting. There is at least one other person who'd also testified to trains moving about in the railroad yards (I'll post that once I find it), but once again, nobody described one going over the TU except for Officer White. Each reference seemed to me to be talking about the trains BEFORE JFK came into Dealey Plaza. The trains "WERE" moving and then talking about seeing the motorcade coming after the fact may be the key to understanding what has been said. Bill Edited July 28, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 Each reference seemed to me to be talking about the trains BEFORE JFK came into Dealey Plaza. The trains "WERE" moving and then talking about seeing the motorcade coming after the fact may be the key to understanding what has been said. Given the fact that the above-quoted testimony was taken in April 1964, the verb "were" in the past tense seems appropriate. Not once did he say that "the motorcade IS coming down Elm Street" - that is, nothing in the present tense, so to try to parse exactly what relative point in time each "was" and "were" refers to seems quite impossible: everything was then in the past, that is, on November 22, 1963, not April 8, 1964. Nevertheless, Brown's remarks seem to have referred to trains in the railroad yard and not on the TU. It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if there had been a train on the TU, that one was clearly not it, which is a moot point because it does not seem in any case that there was a train crossing the TU even despite White's sworn testimony. This does illustrate, however, the lengths some folks'll go to defend a theory ... and a theory is all it is: it is not an established fact. It will become even less so, and I'm confident that the nits will continue to get picked. It's likewise important to realize that the purpose of this thread is not to convince each other of one point of view or the other, but to lay out whatever facts there are for others who read this thread to discern for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Not once did he say that "the motorcade IS coming down Elm Street" - that is, nothing in the present tense, so to try to parse exactly what relative point in time each "was" and "were" refers to seems quite impossible: everything was then in the past, that is, on November 22, 1963, not April 8, 1964. If one says he saw the car slow down and almost come to a stop - does that not mean that he saw the car coming down Elm Street at that point? Bill Mr. Brown. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. Ball. Did it come to a complete stop? Mr. Brown. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. Ball. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. Brown. Yes; slowed down. Edited July 28, 2007 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if... Duke You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. (Don't tell Jack.) and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. (Don't tell Jack.) Do any of you know if the object in question is even in the same RR yard ? Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. (Don't tell Jack.) Do any of you know if the object in question is even in the same RR yard ? Bill Miller Are you asking the masked man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if... Duke You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. LOS: and the sight: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if... Duke You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. LOS: and the sight: First...you have the wrong line of sight for Hoffman; he was farther north, by the rr bridge. Second...where on earth did your second photo come from? I have never seen it. There are two men by the signal box. Please post the entire uncropped unmarked photo and give us its provenance. Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Scull Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 (edited) It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if... Duke You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error. LOS: and the sight: First...you have the wrong line of sight for Hoffman; he was farther north, by the rr bridge. Right you are, Jack. That's somebody else's LOS, not Ed's. Oh no... A hint: His name ends in "y". Second...where on earth did your second photo come from? Many chambers, Jack, many chambers... I have never seen it. There are two men by the signal box. Yes, Jack, there are two men. Oh yes... Remember Ed's sniper's assistant? Please post the entire uncropped unmarked photo and give us its provenance. I shall try to comply with your request. Thanks. Jack Edited July 29, 2007 by Miles Scull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 (edited) First...you have the wrong line of sight for Hoffman; he was farther north, by the rr bridge. Hoffman's line of sight? What makes you think that's Ed Hoffman's line of sight? It's six hundred sixty-six degrees off from Ed's LOS. Read the book! Ed was not by the RR bridge. Edited July 29, 2007 by Duke Lane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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