Ed Hoffman's Activities and Observations

[Jack White]

Please stop talking in riddles. If Ed was NOT by the railroad overpass, where

was he? I do not have his book. Does his book give a different location than

he has always said? Where did that photo come from and when was it taken?

Quit being cute, and if you have information, spiit it out instead of playing

games.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

Please stop talking in riddles. If Ed was NOT by the railroad overpass, where was he? I do not have his book. Does his book give a different location than he has always said? Where did that photo come from and when was it taken? Quit being cute, and if you have information, spiit it out instead of playing games.

Sorry, Jack, but y'see, some of us have taken so much abuse for not knowing Ed's story intimately before speaking a piece about it that it's sort of difficult to be told things that we now know aren't true by people who seem to think they're authorities on the matter but they're not.

So if you're going to leap to Ed's defense as you have been, my suggestion is to get his book from someone so you at least know what you're defending.

You're clearly not dealing with all the facts on this. You might want to rethink your stridency because this is how the story ends.

Your faith has been misplaced. There was no railroad man, there was no bag man, and there was no Ed.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Duke Lane

[Bill Miller]

First...you have the wrong line of sight for Hoffman; he was farther north, by the rr bridge.

Right you are, Jack. That's somebody else's LOS, not Ed's. Oh no... A hint: His name ends in "y".

Having been accused of using a wrong line of sight in the past - why do it again? Maybe the rest of your reply will offer a clue ..................

Second...where on earth did your second photo come from?

Many chambers, Jack, many chambers...

Doesn't seem like you take the concept of this being an "education forum" very seriously. One must ask themselves what goal you have in mind to offer such ridiculous answers instead of just answering Jack's questions.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Please stop talking in riddles. If Ed was NOT by the railroad overpass, where

was he? I do not have his book. Does his book give a different location than

he has always said? Where did that photo come from and when was it taken?

Quit being cute, and if you have information, spiit it out instead of playing

games.

Jack

Jack - you are dealing with people who didn't even so much as read Hoffman's book before critiquing his observations - "cute" is all they have left.

Bill

[Duke Lane]

What is the agenda here? The location and line of sight of Hoffman is being grossly distorted. Isn't it correctly on one of the better DP plats? As I recall at Dallas symposia, others have gone to the spot and been able to imagine it possible to see what he so claims.

It's not a question of whether something can be seen from where Ed claims to have been, it's a question of whether he was there at all. If you'll be patient and allow me time to lay everything out in a logical sequence - I have a life outside of this forum, and it sometimes takes precedence - you'll see that there are things that Miller & Company are either unaware of or have chosen to ignore.

While I'm by no means perfect, you can see how I approach things if you'll search the forum for the keyword "Cowtown" or "Cowtown Connection," which is something I whipped together in 1992 or '93 - literally in a week or two - about "David Atlee Phillips" being under arrest in Fort Worth and the mysteriously-disappearing Fort Worth photographs and police records. I am about to do the same thing to this story.

This is one of those Pandora's Box situations where folks should've left well enough alone and let me go on with my "gut feelings" that I expressed at the beginning of this thread. It was a miscalculation.

[Bill Miller]

It's not a question of whether something can be seen from where Ed claims to have been, it's a question of whether he was there at all. If you'll be patient and allow me time to lay everything out in a logical sequence - I have a life outside of this forum, and it sometimes takes precedence - you'll see that there are things that Miller & Company are either unaware of or have chosen to ignore.

So it must be your position that Ed possibly sought out the authorities after the assassination while not ever being out on the freeway as he had claimed. It would seem like human nature to be in a state of shock over what had happened in Dallas, as most of the country was, thus I cannot see someone quickly thinking that here is an opportunity to claim to have witnessed something that they would know not to be true. However, feel free to make me aware ... just like those who were made aware of Ed's book after those same people were already going around pretending to be authorities on Ed Hoffman.

Bill Miller

[Duke Lane]

For me and many others you will have to present some evidence he wasn't there and not just that his being there and seeing what he 'said' he saw is inconvenient to your formulation of the events. Why would he lie or invent or distort? There are many witnesses and many's descriptions of events can be said to slightly [or more than slightly] conflict with that of other witnesses. Memory or perception, exactly, of events like that are never perfect yet all must be entertained. At this point I'm more interested in your motive to 'disappear' Hoffman than in his statements as to what happened.....but go ahead and make your case.....

Two things to understand:

First is that my "motive" ("motivation" is a better word) is the same as for determining what happened to the "missing" Fort Worth police records and photographs of the "arrest" of "David Atlee Phillips," and more lately for delving into Dicky Worrell story about being under the "sniper's nest" window during the shooting and seeing someone flee the TSBD afterward: facts.

Second is that I have no personal animosity toward Ed Hoffman, and actually think he's a nice guy (if I were a woman, I'd probably call him "sweet"). I take no particular glee in taking out his story, and in a way and to an extent, am saddened by it.

It appears, however, that you're emotionally attached to the story as are others, as evidenced by your being "more interested in [my] motive to 'disappear' Ed" than in the actual facts. If I showed a photo of the very spot he claimed to have been with the limo speeding up the ramp in the background, I fear some folks here would claim either that [a] Ed had to have been standing outside the view of the camera, or that the photo was altered to remove him.

Given facts, they will run from them, decry them, and otherwise pretend they don't exist if it doesn't match up to the story they've come to believe. They are also willing to disregard and dismiss any other witnesses' statements or other evidence that doesn't quite fit, and embrace the least possibility that will lend credence to the tale (e.g., J.W. Foster's 35-years-after-the-fact memory of being told about someone running up the tracks, the only such reference).

So that we're clear on where Ed claimed to have been standing - and where he'd parked his car - here is HIS version, in print, from his book (Ed Hoffman and Ron Freidrich, Eyewitness: Ed Hoffman tells about November 22, 1963, and his search for someone to listen, JFK Lancer Productions and Publications, Grand Prairie, TX, 1997; manuscript #345 PDF) ... which is always possible that he "got wrong" due to a "fading memory" over the years, or he "never intended to be exact" in this misrepresentation (wasn't that Humes' excuse for burning his notes?).

Let it also be said: I believe there was a conspiracy. I just don't believe that every conspiracy theory is valid simply because it points to a conspiracy.

[Duke Lane]

So it must be your position that Ed possibly sought out the authorities after the assassination while not ever being out on the freeway as he had claimed. It would seem like human nature to be in a state of shock over what had happened in Dallas, as most of the country was, thus I cannot see someone quickly thinking that here is an opportunity to claim to have witnessed something that they would know not to be true. However, feel free to make me aware ... just like those who were made aware of Ed's book after those same people were already going around pretending to be authorities on Ed Hoffman.

You have documentary evidence of Ed's going to the FBI or anyone on November 22, 1963? If not, is it your position that such records were never made or were destroyed in favor of the only extant records from several years later which were not destroyed?

Ed's limited-distribution booklet (48 pages including the covers) was not and is not common knowledge, so stop pretending as if it were. Isn't it Vince Bugliosi who opens his appearances with the query of how many people have read the Warren Report? Are you suggesting that anyone here who hasn't read it from cover to cover (as you no doubt have) has "no business" commenting on any aspect of the assassination with any semblance of "authority?"

[Bill Miller]

Ed's limited-distribution booklet (48 pages including the covers) was not and is not common knowledge, so stop pretending as if it were.

Ed's book has been common knowledge to any researcher who bothered to inquire as to what information is out there concerning Hoffman. Peter said something that caused me to reflect on how some of you came out critiquing Ed on erroneous information and yet after you became more educated on the facts - your conclusions didn't change in the slightest. IMO it is Ed who seems more credible than the responses that a few have you have given. For instance, I listened to Miles go on and on as to how no one could have walked the fence line because Holland said the lot was a sea of cars and that he had to hop bumpers as he made his way across the RR yard. Miles left out the fact that Holland took a route that took him across the lot and to the back of the colonnade. Holland went on to say that he walked up and down the fence looking for tracks and shell casings. Arnold said that he walked down the fence line just prior to the President's arrival, and Hoffman tells of seeing someone walk the fence line. You guys were so unaware of the other supporting evidence that it makes your desire to be thorough and accurate to be non-existent as I re-examine how this topic unfolded.

Bill Miller

[Bernice Moore]

It appears as if the train Miles pointed out was not moving, so even if...

Duke

You are correct & the masked man ( ) was in error.

LOS:

and the sight:

First...you have the wrong line of sight for Hoffman; he was farther north, by the rr bridge.

Right you are, Jack. That's somebody else's LOS, not Ed's. Oh no... A hint: His name ends in "y".

Second...where on earth did your second photo come from?

Many chambers, Jack, many chambers...

I have never seen it. There

are two men by the signal box.

Yes, Jack, there are two men. Oh yes... Remember Ed's sniper's assistant?

Please post the entire uncropped unmarked photo and

give us its provenance.

I shall try to comply with your request.

Thanks.

Jack

******************

All:

No, Miles there are not two men by the RR Box..taken the day of the assn by any means..and that is the impression

that you have tried to give...imo........In the photo I posted.......

.........It is my photo Jack, that I posted on this F some time ago,

Miles, I am extremely disappointed in YOU.....In fact I am completely p.......... off and that takes a lot..FYI..

You have taken a photo that I posted, with some information from the book.....and are manipulating it..

Here Jack is what Bob says in his book....about the photos taken......

"Triangle of Fire "by Bob Goodman, released in 1993.........and the photo.......He Took with Ed, one day, when the entire

billboard had been taken down, and the opportunity presented itself, to take a photo, from approximately the area where

Ed had stood....Ed took Bob to that approx spot, left him there, and then Ed went around, to the area and re-enacted the movements

of the men he had seen.."" Bob Goodman : Without any visual assistance, I could easily see with the naked eye every move he

went through, and I realised that he had indeed , had a perfect view of the area behind th stockade fence.""

"We, exchanged locations, and Mr.Hoffman took several photos of me behind the fence as I re-created the movements of the men

behind the fence which he had demonstrated to me .We were very fortunate to get the photos we did, because the billboard

went back up the next day, early in the morning and it never came down again..The view that Mr.Hoffman had at the time of the

assassination could only be seen in the photograph we had taken that day, but it was enough to prove the point.."

At the time I copied the work, my scanner was not working properly a few years ago, that is the how I know it is mine...

since then I have a new one....Tomorrow,

Jack, I will scan anew, there are two photos, for a much better copy.....

Now Miles, I have enlarged the one photo, that you have copied, and it does not show what you have implied,

behind the fence...being taken the day of the assn....

I would like an explanation.....I do not spend my time typing out information, and copying photos, and then post such when

I see that someone may appreciate such...and it may help in anyway ......

....But I Certainly object , when I believe such is being or has been abused, or altered in any way.....or they try to

manipulate such in anyway, to what they believe may fit into their scenario........

This below is what I posted, along with the photos.......as I did that day when first posted

along with an enlarged version .....If there is a man in the photo, is either Ed or Bob Goodman, taken a year or so, perhaps, a couple

before 1993.......not any man the day of the assn..

Stop playing games......

The Ed Hoffman Site..

This is from "Triangle of Fire" the Bob Goodman story....and what became a friendship

with Ed Hoffman.

"One afternoon, Bob was on the steps of Dealey Plaza, near where Zapruder had made

the film, and he saw a man standing behind the stockade fence watching him.

In looking in his direction the man, smiled and waved as if he knew him.

Since Bob felt he could not be sure about anyone at the grassy knoll, he ignored him

at first. Then glancing over his shoulder the man waved again..So Bob walked up closer

to the fence, thinking he may want to ask him something.

The man nodded and smiled, and Bob felt there was something different about this

man..and was drawn towards him..as Bob approached him the man looked over his

bifocals, and pounded his index finger on his chest, he then slowly moved his finger

the the corner of his eye and pointed to Elm St...He spoke not a word, and they stared

at each other .Ed wrote on Bob's notepad his name, and that he had seen what had

happened the day of the assassination. John had heard about him....

Ed had seen someone behind the stockade fence on the grassy knoll with a rifle when

the President was shot. Through sign language and written notes they communicated,

and Ed told John his story.

On the afternoon of Nov.22/63, he had been on his way to a dental appointment when

he remembered the President was coming to town. As he drove he had seen people

waiting alongside the motorcade route in Dealey Plaza. He passed over the overpass and pulled his car to the shoulder of the road. He waited near the Stemmons Freeway overpass bridge. His location was west of Dealey Plaza where the freeway bridge crossed Elm St.

From this position, he has a good view, not only of the street, but also of the area behind the stockade fence on the Grassy Knoll. Ed said he had seen a man in a dark blue suit coat and a fedora-style hat with a rifle behind the fence. He said the man had run with the rifle and had pitched it to another man who appeared to have broken the rifle down or to have taken it apart, behind a large, silver-colored railroad switching box located near the corner of the fence, near the railroad overpass bridge. The man wearing the black fedora had then run back along the fence for a short distance, and then he had started to walk casually across the parking lot.

As the President's convertible limousine drove down Elm St. and toward the freeway just seconds later, Ed saw the aftermath of the assassin's bullets. He saw the blood and the agony and the damage to the President’s head. He knew that something terrible had happened.

Ed communicated with his close friends and family what he had witnessed and had even reported it to the authorities. The results were a lack of interest and a warning to forget about what he had seen. His story remained fairly well secret until the summer of 85 when he shared his eyewitness account to veteran researcher and writer Jim Marrs, who also, on occasion visited the Dealey Plaza area.

Mr. Hoffman explained that there now is a large billboard that now blocks the view that he had on Nov.22/63 and this created a problem. It was impossible to take a photograph

of the view that he had seen that afternoon from the overpass area. The billboard was twelve to fifteen feet lower and almost at ground level on the day of the assassination.

Every two or three weeks, Ed would drop by Dealey and visit Bob Goodman , and it was on one of these visits that as they walked over to the train tracks,as they stood looking at the back of the billboard, he showed Bob where the metal posts that supported the sign had been extended. The metal beams had indeed been welded and lengthened thus raising the billboard twelve to fifteen feet from it's original position. It was frustrating to Ed to try to explain his story without showing him his direct viewpoint. Later Bob discovered a photo taken the day of the assassination showing the billboard at ground level. It confirmed Mr. Hoffman’s claim of the position as being a fact.."

Thank you......

B.....

P.S....I have edited the info from Bob Goodman's book, I had his name as John is two places....this has been corrected....

Edited July 30, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Jack White]

This is dispicable, Bernice! Not only that, someone has added persons

into the photo, it appears. Thanks for this doubly informative information.

There is no trusting people like these.

Jack

[Bernice Moore]

Jack,

In the bottom photo that I have just posted, the man like, is there this is the top photo in the book...

I have no idea if any work on it has been done......will post the two tomorrow, for a better look.

If anyone as I state it is either Ed or Bob, taken around 92 ish.....but the impression given is..

"Jack :I have never seen it. There

are two men by the signal box. "

Miles: "Yes, Jack, there are two men. Oh yes... Remember Ed's sniper's assistant?"

What gets me is that this info, has been taken, and you have been given the impression that it was

taken that day.........And some people wonder why, others simply stop, posting their work and contributing

....shame, damn shame..

Best B.....

Edited July 30, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Jack White]

Bernice...somehow I missed the THIRD BOTTOM photo. It does have a clear image

of a man at the fence, and what appears to be another man by the rr switch box.

But I agree that an attempt was made to misrepresent this image.

Jack

[Myra Bronstein]

Jack,

In the bottom photo that I have just posted, the man like, is there this is the top photo in the book...

I have no idea if any work on it has been done......will post the two tomorrow, for a better look.

If anyone as I state it is either Ed or Bob, taken around 92 ish.....but the impression given is..

"Jack :I have never seen it. There

are two men by the signal box. "

Miles: "Yes, Jack, there are two men. Oh yes... Remember Ed's sniper's assistant?"

What gets me is that this info, has been taken, and you have been given the impression that it was

taken that day.........And some people wonder why, others simply stop, posting their work and contributing

....shame, damn shame..

Best B.....

Please don't stop posting Bernice...

[Miles Scull]

Bernice...somehow I missed the THIRD BOTTOM photo. It does have a clear image

of a man at the fence, and what appears to be another man by the rr switch box.

But I agree that an attempt was made to misrepresent this image.

Jack

As I said, yes, Jack, there are two men.

"Triangle of Fire "by Bob Goodman, released in 1993.........and the photo.......He Took with Ed, one day, when the entire

billboard had been taken down, and the opportunity presented itself, to take a photo, from approximately the area where

Ed had stood....Ed took Bob to that approx spot, left him there, and then Ed went around, to the area and re-enacted the movements

of the men he had seen.."" Bob Goodman : Without any visual assistance, I could easily see with the naked eye every move he

went through, and I realised that he had indeed , had a perfect view of the area behind th stockade fence.""

Is not Goodman photographing Ed re-enacting? So, is that NOT Hatman, as played by Ed?

My photo annotations are correct. Furthermore, a careful & objective analysis of Goodman's photo will reveal some startling

new insights. I shall wait for Bernie to post the new scans of Goodman's photo;

I have no idea if any work on it has been done......will post the two tomorrow, for a better look.

then, after checking for verification to be careful, Jack, I shall submit my additional analysis, which should startle a few folk, out of their socks.