Ed Hoffman's Activities and Observations

[Bill Miller]

The latter we're already aware of and had discussed several pages back. The "firecracker" incident had nothing to do with a "rifle toss."

Not sure what you mean, but the man who Weitzman encountered who told him about seeing something through the trees being tossed has everything to do with it. Also, thanks for looking in Lane's book, but the report I read had Weitzman telling of this witness telling him about the area where the steam pipe was as being where he seen something being tossed following the shooting. It's unfortunate that when I searched Lancer's archives that so many images were missing for I was certain that I scanned that report. I will look for it some more online and through contacts as time allows.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Well, I suppose that's fine ... but we'll find this LOS to be important anyway. I might try to get a clearer copy, albeit even later than these. I, of course, have never doubted what could be seen from Ed's location, only whether there was anyone there.

Try emailing Groden and asking him where it was that he saw Hoffman on Stemmons Freeway. It has been a long time since, but I recall Robert saying that he saw someone in one of the assassination images who was at the location Hoffman said he was.

RobertG1@airmail.net

Bill Miller

[Duke Lane]

... As for where Hoffman was positioned .... did he not say that the President passed below him as he came out from under the overpass and that is when he saw the President's head wound ... I think it was.

Where he and his car were:

Where he was in relation to the limo as it came up the ramp, and to the USSS follow-up car as it came up the ramp (relative to the limo):

An aerial view:

From Eye Witness, pages 6, 10 and 9 respectively. Hope this clears that up.

[Duke Lane]

Try emailing Groden and asking him where it was that he saw Hoffman on Stemmons Freeway. It has been a long time since, but I recall Robert saying that he saw someone in one of the assassination images who was at the location Hoffman said he was.

Hold that thought.

[Bill Miller]

Try emailing Groden and asking him where it was that he saw Hoffman on Stemmons Freeway. It has been a long time since, but I recall Robert saying that he saw someone in one of the assassination images who was at the location Hoffman said he was.

Hold that thought.

Not sure why threads are run up in space by replies that have little to do with posting evidence, but upon phoning Groden to find out the source where he saw someone on Stemmons - he said that he cannot recall it now. I can say without a doubt that Robert had told me that you could see Hoffman in one of the assassination images and by that I mean Robert said someone could be seen at that location. Unfortunately, Robert's memory wasn't working today or he had said something in the past which he no longer feels is supported which is not the first time that has happened.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Gary Mack tells me .... "The image Groden saw was a re-creation film shot later that month or year. Larry Howard used the same film to prove Ed was there, but it was the re-creation film. I have the film in some old documentary, probably a CBS program."

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Hi B,

Thx again.

Just a couple of preliminary notes for now because of time constraints.

Couple more notes on LOS:

[Bill Miller]

The photo has text on it that says that 'Foster runs here in 20 to 30 seconds' .... Are you saying that he was a slow runner and that once he started to move off the underpass that it took him that long to cover such a short distance or are you saying that Foster ran there within the first 20 to 30 seconds after the shooting? If it is the latter ... can you tell us how this relates to the photographic record?

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Hi B,

Thx again.

Just a couple of preliminary notes for now because of time constraints.

Couple more notes on LOS:

Here are some more photos which bear on the question of whether or not there was a open passage

way along the north side of the picket fence at the critical times.

An open passage way or pathway along the picket fence, running down between the picket fence and row of parked cars adjacent to & running parallel to the fence, would allow passage by foot from Holland's sniper's spot down to the steam pipe along the fence & close to the fence.

Was there such a passage way or path way?

Sam Holland said that the cars were parked pretty close to the fence. How close?

Mr. STERN - All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?

Mr. MORRISON - Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot, I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud upon the bumper of that station wagon.

From Sam's drawing it is reasonable to conclude that the separation distance between the back of the station wagon & the fence was between 2 to 2.5 feet.

Mr. STERN - And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND - I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN - In front of the cars---

Mr. HOLLAND - The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

As for the parked cars ranked along the length of the fence from its corner down to the steam pipe there seems to be this possibility, among others:

1.) some or at least one car or truck was parked no more than one foot away from the fence which would have stopped free foot passage from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe.

There is also this possibility:

2.) not any of the parked cars were closer to the fence than two feet which would have allowed a very tight but still navigable passage by foot down along the fence.

The following series of photos exhibits the argument that at least one car & probably several cars were parked one foot or less away from the fence.

[Bill Miller]

1.) some or at least one car or truck was parked no more than one foot away from the fence which would have stopped free foot passage from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe.

"At least one car or truck was parked no more than a foot away from the fence .... " Can you point us to where you derived at that piece of information? Holland mentions the footprints covering an area of about 3' x 2'. Also, if one wishes to use Holland's drawing as some sort of scale as to how much room was between the fence and the cars - his spacing is about equal to the length of a car hood when compared to the length of his cars. I must be missing something and look forward to you (Miles) clearing it up for me.

There is also this possibility:

2.) not any of the parked cars were closer to the fence than two feet which would have allowed a very tight but still navigable passage by foot down along the fence.

The following series of photos exhibits the argument that at least one car & probably several cars were parked one foot or less away from the fence.

Miles, are you not aware that these photos were not taken on the day of the assassination. Hoffman said a man walked the fence line - Holland said he walked the fence line - and Gordon Arnold said he walked the fence line. How many witnesses are needed to validate that the fence line could be walked on 11/22/63 during the assassination?

Bill Miller

Edited August 3, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

resend

The photo has text on it that says that 'Foster runs here in 20 to 30 seconds' ....

Continuation:

The red arrows show a narrow passage way for cars which forces cars to be parked as close as possible to the fence, so the cars are nearly touching the fence.

A photo taken late afternoon on Nov. 22, 1963:

Edited August 3, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Jack White]

Hi B,

Thx again.

Just a couple of preliminary notes for now because of time constraints.

Couple more notes on LOS:

Here are some more photos which bear on the question of whether or not there was a open passage

way along the north side of the picket fence at the critical times.

An open passage way or pathway along the picket fence, running down between the picket fence and row of parked cars adjacent to & running parallel to the fence, would allow passage by foot from Holland's sniper's spot down to the steam pipe along the fence & close to the fence.

Was there such a passage way or path way?

Sam Holland said that the cars were parked pretty close to the fence. How close?

Mr. STERN - All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?

Mr. MORRISON - Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot, I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud upon the bumper of that station wagon.

From Sam's drawing it is reasonable to conclude that the separation distance between the back of the station wagon & the fence was between 2 to 2.5 feet.

Mr. STERN - And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND - I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN - In front of the cars---

Mr. HOLLAND - The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

As for the parked cars ranked along the length of the fence from its corner down to the steam pipe there seems to be this possibility, among others:

1.) some or at least one car or truck was parked no more than one foot away from the fence which would have stopped free foot passage from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe.

There is also this possibility:

2.) not any of the parked cars were closer to the fence than two feet which would have allowed a very tight but still navigable passage by foot down along the fence.

The following series of photos exhibits the argument that at least one car & probably several cars were parked one foot or less away from the fence.

How can we trust those pretty computer graphics when the artist

1. Did not use 1963 model cars, and made all the cars white

2. Is guessing at car positions, not based on photos

3. Put in white painted stripes on the dirt parking lot, unpaved at that time?

GIGO.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Same unanswered questions as before ...

1.) some or at least one car or truck was parked no more than one foot away from the fence which would have stopped free foot passage from Holland's sniper's spot to the steam pipe.

"At least one car or truck was parked no more than a foot away from the fence .... " Can you point us to where you derived at that piece of information? Holland mentions the footprints covering an area of about 3' x 2'. Also, if one wishes to use Holland's drawing as some sort of scale as to how much room was between the fence and the cars - his spacing is about equal to the length of a car hood when compared to the length of his cars. I must be missing something and look forward to you (Miles) clearing it up for me.

There is also this possibility:

2.) not any of the parked cars were closer to the fence than two feet which would have allowed a very tight but still navigable passage by foot down along the fence.

The following series of photos exhibits the argument that at least one car & probably several cars were parked one foot or less away from the fence.

Miles, are you not aware that these photos were not taken on the day of the assassination. Hoffman said a man walked the fence line - Holland said he walked the fence line - and Gordon Arnold said he walked the fence line. How many witnesses are needed to validate that the fence line could be walked on 11/22/63 during the assassination?

Bill Miller

Edited August 3, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Hoffman said a man walked the fence line - Holland said he walked the fence line - and Gordon Arnold said he walked the fence line. How many witnesses are needed to validate that the fence line could be walked on 11/22/63 during the assassination?

1.) Hoffman never said a man walked down the fence line. Considering that the pathway down the fence would be no greater than 2 feet wide because of the parked cars, such action by a man carrying a rifle would have been counter-intuitive in any case. On the logic, the fence pathway would have been constricted to one foot in width.

2.) Holland never said he walked down the fence line. He said he jumped & vaulted over cars & went to the fence after coming back to & arriving at the front of the station wagon which was backed into the fence.

3.) Arnold said he straddled the steam pipe which burned Weitzman's hands. Arnold's story is open to doubt & cannot be relied on. Many doubt Arnold's story.

This photo was made on Nov. 24, 1963:

Note Foster would have seen Hoffman's tableau vivant, but did not. This refutes Ed's story.

Here is a blowup. Note that the top car & the bottom pickup truck are within a foot of the fence which is approximated by the red line. Remember, on Nov. 22, 1963, the fence was abutted & pressed into by parked cars down its entire length. How many of those cars would have been parked to within one foot of the fence? Five? Eight? If only one car was parked so close as one foot from the fence, then the fence pathway is blocked, necessitating difficult & time consuming side-step shuffling with the shuffler's back hitting & scrapping against the fence (with rifle at port arms according to Hoffman). Not a sniper's logical exit strategy. Go figure.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Duke Lane]

... Hoffman said a man walked the fence line - Holland said he walked the fence line - and Gordon Arnold said he walked the fence line. How many witnesses are needed to validate that the fence line could be walked on 11/22/63 during the assassination?

Well, having more than one witness who was absolutely, positively, verifiably there - or at least more than two! - would be nice.

Using one person's own "testimony" to verify itself surely doesn't count, does it?