Confused "Newbie" needs help over autopsy..Please respond.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Denios, Pat's work is, IMO, just outstanding and merits your careful attention. It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

Exactly who was it that stated that there was anything "complicated" about this?

About the only thing which is "complicated" is all of the nice little "slight/sleight-of-hand" tricks which Specter & Company pulled, which surrounds THE SHOT THAT MISSED! (which by the way never actually missed).

Personally, I could never follow the logic of persons who though that the shooter (LHO) could hit JFK twice, yet could not even hit the car with THE SHOT THAT MISSED!

Certainly glad that me & Jethro are so "simple-minded" that we just could not understand all of this other complicated stuff, and thus had to stick with the facts.

Thanks for the help guys, especially the link too Pats site, load's good info there. And Thomas I'm glad you find everything so easy, I certainly dont, but now you got me intrigued, are you saying Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot?

Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/tague.htm

And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the face while I was standing down there."

And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek."

And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on

Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?

Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.

The "Tague" injury and what may have caused it has been discussed in great length here as well as many other places.

Tague had a small scratch on his face, which was of such minor significance that he almost forgot that he had even felt the "sting" when he was hit.

Tague has repeatedly stated that he felt that he was hit at/about the time of the second shot, which is quite rational since this is the only bullet to fragment and thereafter send it's fragments in multiple directions.

As to whether Tague was struck by a small piece of concrete, a small piece of asphalt, or a small piece of lead, is completely unknown and will remain an unknown.

To reference it as a "wound" is taking slight liberty with the facts.

Does your "logic" operate under the assumption that whoever the shooter was, that he could hit JFK on two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the slightly large Presidential Limo and/or anyone in it with the third shot?

And, just for your information, Lee Harvey Oswald was an absolutely EXCELLENT shot!

Thanks Thomas for this (to me) new insight. I must admit, I always took the 'missed shot' as gospel. Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew' about the case and start afresh. One question if I may, from reading your other post's you obviously belive Oswald was the only shooter, do you also belive he was acting alone i.e. not part of a conspiracy? Thanks, Denis.

Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew'

Welcome to the learning process!

There are several others here also who have come to recognize & realize that what one "thought" they knew, is severely tainted.

First off:

There were three shots fired. And, there were definitive witnesses to having observed each of these shots strike JFK.

And, as I have posted here many times, the US Secret Service easily resolved the issues of the impact point of each of the three shots fired during their re-enactment of the assassination on December 2, 3, & 4th, with their survey plat of 12/5/63 clearly demonstrating exactly where each shot impacted.

And I might add, Z313 was not the last shot fired. It was, as so many witnesses stated, the second shot.

LHO was engaged in covert type activities, and due to the numerous aspects of things which he did and/or was involved with, someone was directly involved in feeding him information relative to those groups of whom he went out of his way to attempt to leave his "scent'.

From all initial indications, LHO's activities appear to have been initially directed at getting him into Cuba, which would have had only one purpose.

The assassination of Fidel Castro.

At some point, this changed.

Now, the only question being whether LHO took it upon himself to shoot JFK as a result of some failure to get to Castro, or whether those entities who were directing LHO's activities actually dictated to LHO that the primary target had now become JFK, will most likely now never be known.

With all things considered, the latter hypothesis has considerably more to support it than merely LHO getting mad due to loss of monies, etc; to complete a contract hit on Castro.

Thus, my money would ride on "change of primary target"!

LHO was absolutely not some "Lone Nut"!

He was, and clearly demonstrated, that he was involved in a "mission" at all times. And, he was given considerable support in earning a meager livlihood while engaged in whatever this mission was. As well as such things as the "helping hand" of those such as DeMohrenschildt, who himself was merely another pawn in the game which was being played out by someone.

Lastly!

In the new approach to learning, rest assured that had LHO been in the US Army, his range qualification scores would have placed him in the upper rankings of "EXPERT" marksman.

Of course the WC truly did not want anyone to fully understand exactly how good of a shooter LHO actually was, or else it would be most unlikely that they could spoon feed and get anyone to believe "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Tom

P.S. My standard statement in this regards: Exactly why would anyone believe the WC on this issue?

[Denis Pointing]

Denios, Pat's work is, IMO, just outstanding and merits your careful attention. It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

Exactly who was it that stated that there was anything "complicated" about this?

About the only thing which is "complicated" is all of the nice little "slight/sleight-of-hand" tricks which Specter & Company pulled, which surrounds THE SHOT THAT MISSED! (which by the way never actually missed).

Personally, I could never follow the logic of persons who though that the shooter (LHO) could hit JFK twice, yet could not even hit the car with THE SHOT THAT MISSED!

Certainly glad that me & Jethro are so "simple-minded" that we just could not understand all of this other complicated stuff, and thus had to stick with the facts.

Thanks for the help guys, especially the link too Pats site, load's good info there. And Thomas I'm glad you find everything so easy, I certainly dont, but now you got me intrigued, are you saying Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot?

Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/tague.htm

And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the face while I was standing down there."

And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek."

And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on

Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?

Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.

The "Tague" injury and what may have caused it has been discussed in great length here as well as many other places.

Tague had a small scratch on his face, which was of such minor significance that he almost forgot that he had even felt the "sting" when he was hit.

Tague has repeatedly stated that he felt that he was hit at/about the time of the second shot, which is quite rational since this is the only bullet to fragment and thereafter send it's fragments in multiple directions.

As to whether Tague was struck by a small piece of concrete, a small piece of asphalt, or a small piece of lead, is completely unknown and will remain an unknown.

To reference it as a "wound" is taking slight liberty with the facts.

Does your "logic" operate under the assumption that whoever the shooter was, that he could hit JFK on two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the slightly large Presidential Limo and/or anyone in it with the third shot?

And, just for your information, Lee Harvey Oswald was an absolutely EXCELLENT shot!

Thanks Thomas for this (to me) new insight. I must admit, I always took the 'missed shot' as gospel. Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew' about the case and start afresh. One question if I may, from reading your other post's you obviously belive Oswald was the only shooter, do you also belive he was acting alone i.e. not part of a conspiracy? Thanks, Denis.

Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew'

Welcome to the learning process!

There are several others here also who have come to recognize & realize that what one "thought" they knew, is severely tainted.

First off:

There were three shots fired. And, there were definitive witnesses to having observed each of these shots strike JFK.

And, as I have posted here many times, the US Secret Service easily resolved the issues of the impact point of each of the three shots fired during their re-enactment of the assassination on December 2, 3, & 4th, with their survey plat of 12/5/63 clearly demonstrating exactly where each shot impacted.

And I might add, Z313 was not the last shot fired. It was, as so many witnesses stated, the second shot.

LHO was engaged in covert type activities, and due to the numerous aspects of things which he did and/or was involved with, someone was directly involved in feeding him information relative to those groups of whom he went out of his way to attempt to leave his "scent'.

From all initial indications, LHO's activities appear to have been initially directed at getting him into Cuba, which would have had only one purpose.

The assassination of Fidel Castro.

At some point, this changed.

Now, the only question being whether LHO took it upon himself to shoot JFK as a result of some failure to get to Castro, or whether those entities who were directing LHO's activities actually dictated to LHO that the primary target had now become JFK, will most likely now never be known.

With all things considered, the latter hypothesis has considerably more to support it than merely LHO getting mad due to loss of monies, etc; to complete a contract hit on Castro.

Thus, my money would ride on "change of primary target"!

LHO was absolutely not some "Lone Nut"!

He was, and clearly demonstrated, that he was involved in a "mission" at all times. And, he was given considerable support in earning a meager livlihood while engaged in whatever this mission was. As well as such things as the "helping hand" of those such as DeMohrenschildt, who himself was merely another pawn in the game which was being played out by someone.

Lastly!

In the new approach to learning, rest assured that had LHO been in the US Army, his range qualification scores would have placed him in the upper rankings of "EXPERT" marksman.

Of course the WC truly did not want anyone to fully understand exactly how good of a shooter LHO actually was, or else it would be most unlikely that they could spoon feed and get anyone to believe "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Tom

P.S. My standard statement in this regards: Exactly why would anyone believe the WC on this issue?

Thomas, I'm very loath to disagree with someone whose knowledge of the case is so VERY superior to my own. But what the hell...you can only rip me to sherd's once. Here goes nothing. The idea that Oswald was being sent into Cuba by the CIA, or any other group, to assassinate Castro doesn't make sense IMO, even if Oswald could have convinced the Cuban authority's that he was 'genuine' he would never have been really trusted and would have been watched 24/7. I dont belive he could ever have got close enough to Castro to assassinate him. Anyway, why go to all that bother when they could easily have trained and smuggled in an anti Castro Cuban. The advantages are obvious, a Cuban would have known his way around, spoken the language and had he have been caught the CIA would not have been implicated. He also wouldn't have stood out like a white spot on a domino, as Oswald would have (no racism intended). Finally, your comment that the Warren commission did not want to admit Oswald could have fired 3 good shots, well, I'm probably wrong but wasnt the commission quite happy to accept 3 good shots, until Tague's story got out, forced them to reconvene and change their story? Thanks, Denis.

[Denis Pointing]

Denios, Pat's work is, IMO, just outstanding and merits your careful attention. It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

It is clear he has put hundreds and hundreds of hours into studying these complicated issues.

Exactly who was it that stated that there was anything "complicated" about this?

About the only thing which is "complicated" is all of the nice little "slight/sleight-of-hand" tricks which Specter & Company pulled, which surrounds THE SHOT THAT MISSED! (which by the way never actually missed).

Personally, I could never follow the logic of persons who though that the shooter (LHO) could hit JFK twice, yet could not even hit the car with THE SHOT THAT MISSED!

Certainly glad that me & Jethro are so "simple-minded" that we just could not understand all of this other complicated stuff, and thus had to stick with the facts.

Thanks for the help guys, especially the link too Pats site, load's good info there. And Thomas I'm glad you find everything so easy, I certainly dont, but now you got me intrigued, are you saying Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot?

Tague never got wounded in the cheek by a missed shot

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/tague.htm

And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the face while I was standing down there."

And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek."

And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on

Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?

Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.

The "Tague" injury and what may have caused it has been discussed in great length here as well as many other places.

Tague had a small scratch on his face, which was of such minor significance that he almost forgot that he had even felt the "sting" when he was hit.

Tague has repeatedly stated that he felt that he was hit at/about the time of the second shot, which is quite rational since this is the only bullet to fragment and thereafter send it's fragments in multiple directions.

As to whether Tague was struck by a small piece of concrete, a small piece of asphalt, or a small piece of lead, is completely unknown and will remain an unknown.

To reference it as a "wound" is taking slight liberty with the facts.

Does your "logic" operate under the assumption that whoever the shooter was, that he could hit JFK on two out of three shots, yet could not even hit the slightly large Presidential Limo and/or anyone in it with the third shot?

And, just for your information, Lee Harvey Oswald was an absolutely EXCELLENT shot!

Thanks Thomas for this (to me) new insight. I must admit, I always took the 'missed shot' as gospel. Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew' about the case and start afresh. One question if I may, from reading your other post's you obviously belive Oswald was the only shooter, do you also belive he was acting alone i.e. not part of a conspiracy? Thanks, Denis.

Seems to me that I need to throw out all I thought I 'knew'

Welcome to the learning process!

There are several others here also who have come to recognize & realize that what one "thought" they knew, is severely tainted.

First off:

There were three shots fired. And, there were definitive witnesses to having observed each of these shots strike JFK.

And, as I have posted here many times, the US Secret Service easily resolved the issues of the impact point of each of the three shots fired during their re-enactment of the assassination on December 2, 3, & 4th, with their survey plat of 12/5/63 clearly demonstrating exactly where each shot impacted.

And I might add, Z313 was not the last shot fired. It was, as so many witnesses stated, the second shot.

LHO was engaged in covert type activities, and due to the numerous aspects of things which he did and/or was involved with, someone was directly involved in feeding him information relative to those groups of whom he went out of his way to attempt to leave his "scent'.

From all initial indications, LHO's activities appear to have been initially directed at getting him into Cuba, which would have had only one purpose.

The assassination of Fidel Castro.

At some point, this changed.

Now, the only question being whether LHO took it upon himself to shoot JFK as a result of some failure to get to Castro, or whether those entities who were directing LHO's activities actually dictated to LHO that the primary target had now become JFK, will most likely now never be known.

With all things considered, the latter hypothesis has considerably more to support it than merely LHO getting mad due to loss of monies, etc; to complete a contract hit on Castro.

Thus, my money would ride on "change of primary target"!

LHO was absolutely not some "Lone Nut"!

He was, and clearly demonstrated, that he was involved in a "mission" at all times. And, he was given considerable support in earning a meager livlihood while engaged in whatever this mission was. As well as such things as the "helping hand" of those such as DeMohrenschildt, who himself was merely another pawn in the game which was being played out by someone.

Lastly!

In the new approach to learning, rest assured that had LHO been in the US Army, his range qualification scores would have placed him in the upper rankings of "EXPERT" marksman.

Of course the WC truly did not want anyone to fully understand exactly how good of a shooter LHO actually was, or else it would be most unlikely that they could spoon feed and get anyone to believe "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

Tom

P.S. My standard statement in this regards: Exactly why would anyone believe the WC on this issue?

Thomas, I'm very loath to disagree with someone whose knowledge of the case is so VERY superior to my own. But what the hell...you can only rip me to sherd's once. Here goes nothing. The idea that Oswald was being sent into Cuba by the CIA, or any other group, to assassinate Castro doesn't make sense IMO, even if Oswald could have convinced the Cuban authority's that he was 'genuine' he would never have been really trusted and would have been watched 24/7. I dont belive he could ever have got close enough to Castro to assassinate him. Anyway, why go to all that bother when they could easily have trained and smuggled in an anti Castro Cuban. The advantages are obvious, a Cuban would have known his way around, spoken the language and had he have been caught the CIA would not have been implicated. He also wouldn't have stood out like a white spot on a domino, as Oswald would have (no racism intended). Finally, your comment that the Warren commission did not want to admit Oswald could have fired 3 good shots, well, I'm probably wrong but wasnt the commission quite happy to accept 3 good shots, until Tague's story got out, forced them to reconvene and change their story? Thanks, Denis.

oops, sorry double post.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The idea that Oswald was being sent into Cuba by the CIA

Not unlike many, you confuse the CIA with the good ole US of A "FREE ENTERPRISE" system.

Tague's story got out, forced them to reconvene and change their story? Thanks, Denis.

Tague's "sting" to the cheek was well established and well known by the FBI long before the WC assumed responsibility for adding to the confusion.

In fact, the location of the Tague curb strike is clearly marked on the WC Survey Plat .

The "satisfactory" story was three shots, and three hits, as determined by the FBI during their work of February 7, 1964.

However!. The FBI, knowing far more about the wounds than most, left the third/last/final shot impact point down in front of James Altgens in place.

They attempted to move the Z313 impact point some 28.5 feet back up Elm St., which placed this impact well prior to JFK having passed the yellow curb stripe where Moorman & Hill were standing.

This "flopped' as any fool could determine the true location of the Z313 impact based on the yellow mark in the curb.

This was JEH's story of

1. Shot in back-----------lodged only a finger deep.

2. Shot to Connally.-----28.5 feet prior to the actual impact point of the Z313 headshot.

3. Shot to JFK's head----30 feet past the impact point of the Z313 headshot, directly in front of Altgens position.

This, is what the FBI Survey work and survey plat of 2/7/64, as seen in CE585 demonstrates.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0144b.htm

Of course, you can not tell it! Which happens to be another of those ways in which the WC hid stuff in "Plain Sight".

Many have erroneously been lead to believe that the FBI version was changed due to JEH & Company moving the "mid-shot" too close to the first shot, thus not having sufficient elapsed time for the two shots to have been fired.

Actually, the FBI lie, would not fly, due to the fact that the impact at Z313 was clearly tied to a single location on Elm St. which was immediately after JFK had passed the first yellow mark on the curb, and JEH's lie in this regards was totally obvious.

Thus, anyone who accepted that the FBI was telling the truth in regards to the second shot, would ultimately have to reconcile that there was a shot at the actual Z313 impact point which was only some 28.5 feet farther down Elm St, and was in fact too short of a distance for the rifle to have been operated, aimed, and fired according to the established vehicle speed.

The simplicity of all this is:

1. JFK was struck in the back by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

2. JFK was struck in the rear of the head head by a bullet that severely fragmented, sending lead & copper jacket fragments in all directions.

3. JBC was struck in the right shoulder by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

Now!

Assuming that CE399 DID NOT go through JFK (which it most certainly did not do)!

The bullet which struck JFK in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

The bullet which struck JBC in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

And,

We have the remaining fragmented pieces of that bullet which struck JFK in the head.

We have the remaining, virtually intact bullet which struck JFK in the back,

Then;

Methinks that someone had best be looking for an intact bullet which struck JBC in the bact with sufficient velocity and force, that it acted almost like a normal bullet in that it did not carry fabric down into the wound of entry, and traversed entirely through his chest without fragmenting.

And, I would also note, for those who have followed along, that the wound of entry into JBC's back was elongated HORIZONTALLY, which Specter & Company attempted to pass off as some sort of beginning of "yaw", when in fact it is nothing more than the normal elongated VERTICALLY wound of entrance with abrasion collar on top which was created due to the torso of JBC being in an almost horizontal position across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that this bullet exited the skull of JFK and struck JBC on it's downward angle.

So, an horizontally elongated wound of entry into the right shoulder of JBC, is in fact a VERTICAL downward elongated wound of entry when the torso is laid over to the left onto the left shoulder.

Hope that is not too much information!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The idea that Oswald was being sent into Cuba by the CIA

Not unlike many, you confuse the CIA with the good ole US of A "FREE ENTERPRISE" system.

Tague's story got out, forced them to reconvene and change their story? Thanks, Denis.

Tague's "sting" to the cheek was well established and well known by the FBI long before the WC assumed responsibility for adding to the confusion.

In fact, the location of the Tague curb strike is clearly marked on the WC Survey Plat .

The "satisfactory" story was three shots, and three hits, as determined by the FBI during their work of February 7, 1964.

However!. The FBI, knowing far more about the wounds than most, left the third/last/final shot impact point down in front of James Altgens in place.

They attempted to move the Z313 impact point some 28.5 feet back up Elm St., which placed this impact well prior to JFK having passed the yellow curb stripe where Moorman & Hill were standing.

This "flopped' as any fool could determine the true location of the Z313 impact based on the yellow mark in the curb.

This was JEH's story of

1. Shot in back-----------lodged only a finger deep.

2. Shot to Connally.-----28.5 feet prior to the actual impact point of the Z313 headshot.

3. Shot to JFK's head----30 feet past the impact point of the Z313 headshot, directly in front of Altgens position.

This, is what the FBI Survey work and survey plat of 2/7/64, as seen in CE585 demonstrates.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0144b.htm

Of course, you can not tell it! Which happens to be another of those ways in which the WC hid stuff in "Plain Sight".

Many have erroneously been lead to believe that the FBI version was changed due to JEH & Company moving the "mid-shot" too close to the first shot, thus not having sufficient elapsed time for the two shots to have been fired.

Actually, the FBI lie, would not fly, due to the fact that the impact at Z313 was clearly tied to a single location on Elm St. which was immediately after JFK had passed the first yellow mark on the curb, and JEH's lie in this regards was totally obvious.

Thus, anyone who accepted that the FBI was telling the truth in regards to the second shot, would ultimately have to reconcile that there was a shot at the actual Z313 impact point which was only some 28.5 feet farther down Elm St, and was in fact too short of a distance for the rifle to have been operated, aimed, and fired according to the established vehicle speed.

The simplicity of all this is:

1. JFK was struck in the back by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

2. JFK was struck in the rear of the head head by a bullet that severely fragmented, sending lead & copper jacket fragments in all directions.

3. JBC was struck in the right shoulder by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

Now!

Assuming that CE399 DID NOT go through JFK (which it most certainly did not do)!

The bullet which struck JFK in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

The bullet which struck JBC in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

And,

We have the remaining fragmented pieces of that bullet which struck JFK in the head.

We have the remaining, virtually intact bullet which struck JFK in the back,

Then;

Methinks that someone had best be looking for an intact bullet which struck JBC in the bact with sufficient velocity and force, that it acted almost like a normal bullet in that it did not carry fabric down into the wound of entry, and traversed entirely through his chest without fragmenting.

And, I would also note, for those who have followed along, that the wound of entry into JBC's back was elongated HORIZONTALLY, which Specter & Company attempted to pass off as some sort of beginning of "yaw", when in fact it is nothing more than the normal elongated VERTICALLY wound of entrance with abrasion collar on top which was created due to the torso of JBC being in an almost horizontal position across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that this bullet exited the skull of JFK and struck JBC on it's downward angle.

So, an horizontally elongated wound of entry into the right shoulder of JBC, is in fact a VERTICAL downward elongated wound of entry when the torso is laid over to the left onto the left shoulder.

Hope that is not too much information!

[Denis Pointing]

The idea that Oswald was being sent into Cuba by the CIA

Not unlike many, you confuse the CIA with the good ole US of A "FREE ENTERPRISE" system.

Tague's story got out, forced them to reconvene and change their story? Thanks, Denis.

Tague's "sting" to the cheek was well established and well known by the FBI long before the WC assumed responsibility for adding to the confusion.

In fact, the location of the Tague curb strike is clearly marked on the WC Survey Plat .

The "satisfactory" story was three shots, and three hits, as determined by the FBI during their work of February 7, 1964.

However!. The FBI, knowing far more about the wounds than most, left the third/last/final shot impact point down in front of James Altgens in place.

They attempted to move the Z313 impact point some 28.5 feet back up Elm St., which placed this impact well prior to JFK having passed the yellow curb stripe where Moorman & Hill were standing.

This "flopped' as any fool could determine the true location of the Z313 impact based on the yellow mark in the curb.

This was JEH's story of

1. Shot in back-----------lodged only a finger deep.

2. Shot to Connally.-----28.5 feet prior to the actual impact point of the Z313 headshot.

3. Shot to JFK's head----30 feet past the impact point of the Z313 headshot, directly in front of Altgens position.

This, is what the FBI Survey work and survey plat of 2/7/64, as seen in CE585 demonstrates.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0144b.htm

Of course, you can not tell it! Which happens to be another of those ways in which the WC hid stuff in "Plain Sight".

Many have erroneously been lead to believe that the FBI version was changed due to JEH & Company moving the "mid-shot" too close to the first shot, thus not having sufficient elapsed time for the two shots to have been fired.

Actually, the FBI lie, would not fly, due to the fact that the impact at Z313 was clearly tied to a single location on Elm St. which was immediately after JFK had passed the first yellow mark on the curb, and JEH's lie in this regards was totally obvious.

Thus, anyone who accepted that the FBI was telling the truth in regards to the second shot, would ultimately have to reconcile that there was a shot at the actual Z313 impact point which was only some 28.5 feet farther down Elm St, and was in fact too short of a distance for the rifle to have been operated, aimed, and fired according to the established vehicle speed.

The simplicity of all this is:

1. JFK was struck in the back by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

2. JFK was struck in the rear of the head head by a bullet that severely fragmented, sending lead & copper jacket fragments in all directions.

3. JBC was struck in the right shoulder by an intact bullet, fired from the rear.

Now!

Assuming that CE399 DID NOT go through JFK (which it most certainly did not do)!

The bullet which struck JFK in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

The bullet which struck JBC in the back did not fragment into pieces (which it certainly did not do)

And,

We have the remaining fragmented pieces of that bullet which struck JFK in the head.

We have the remaining, virtually intact bullet which struck JFK in the back,

Then;

Methinks that someone had best be looking for an intact bullet which struck JBC in the bact with sufficient velocity and force, that it acted almost like a normal bullet in that it did not carry fabric down into the wound of entry, and traversed entirely through his chest without fragmenting.

And, I would also note, for those who have followed along, that the wound of entry into JBC's back was elongated HORIZONTALLY, which Specter & Company attempted to pass off as some sort of beginning of "yaw", when in fact it is nothing more than the normal elongated VERTICALLY wound of entrance with abrasion collar on top which was created due to the torso of JBC being in an almost horizontal position across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that this bullet exited the skull of JFK and struck JBC on it's downward angle.

So, an horizontally elongated wound of entry into the right shoulder of JBC, is in fact a VERTICAL downward elongated wound of entry when the torso is laid over to the left onto the left shoulder.

Hope that is not too much information!

"Hope that is not too much information!" No, not all Thomas. This is fascinating stuff, and I appreciate you taken the time to explain it. Even if I do need to read it about 20 times to understand it all. lol. Thanks.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Even if I do need to read it about 20 times to understand it all. lol. Thanks.

Suprisingly enough!

I have, and will continue to recommend "BEST EVIDENCE" as a review in gaining an understanding of the conflicting information and statements relative to the wounds of JFK & JBC.

After that, might I recommend you look into the mirror and insure that "DUMB A**" is not painted onto your forehead, just prior to going into the body snatch and wound alteration mode.

However, conflicting understandings of the medical evidence is neither a prime indicator of body snatching, wound alteration, or multiple assassins shooting from multitudes of locations.

It usually merely means that someone does not understand the conflicts.

For those who truly wish to resolve this somewhat enigma on their own, might I again recommend that they establish as a baseline, the only "known" of which most can agree.

That being the headshot at Z313, which is extremely well established as to location, as well as (despite what some think) wounds to JFK.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head.

I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. LIEBELER - Could you tell us approximately how many shots there were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I wouldn't want to say--I don't want to guess, because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot--I can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least one shot in between.

Mr. LIEBELER - At least one?

Mr. ALTGENS - I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that.

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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8953

Post #16

"Quickly there was a second shot (John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back & had then whirled to the left to get another look---realized the President had been shot said "No, No, No)

Was hit and said "My God, they are are going to kill us all"--Wheeled back to the right crumpling his shoulders and his knees in the most unpleasant & pitiful position a tall big man could be in.

I reached over and pulled him to me & tried to get us both down in the car. Then came a third shot.

With John in my arms and still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit--but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot. My eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car."

Nellie Connally, handwritten notes made 10 days after the event.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg

Certainly would appear that JBC is a long way from being over in Nellie's lap at this point!

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Now!

Were it that I were the SS and I insisted that the third/last shot struck JFK in the head, I would neither be incorrect/wrong, nor would I be telling a lie.

Were it that I were the SS and I insisted that the second shot struck JFK in the head, I would neither be incorrect/wrong, nor would I be telling a lie.

I guess that Nellie Connally; James Altgens; Hudson; Holland; Bennett; Brehm; etc; etc; etc; are all just totally confused !

Or at least, someone is quite confused anyway!