On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Bill Miller]

My animation is clearer & it's zoomed into the fence. I've concluded it's not a hat but the shape of the wheel arch on the white vehicle in the background.

So IMO "if you want to know where "Hatman" was positioned", don't look at Nix because "it" is not seen it that film.

I don't know what it is, Alan. Rick brought this to the research community about 8 years ago. A day or so ago you posted that you didn't know what it was. Today you say you have it all figured out. So for 8 years you couldn't figure out what it was and in the past day you have the solution.

Rick use to say that there was movement seen in that clip .... it was one of those things that I couldn't say for sure because of the quality of the film being used. What I do know is that smoke came from that location, thus someone was there.

What is even more interesting is that the Nix camera is looking towards the fence at much the same angle that Bowers had, but from the other direction. You claim to be able to see the other side of the fence so well that you believe that you can see the wheel of a car, but yet you argued that Bowers couldn't see over the fence well enopugh to be able to tell if anyone had been standing on the south side of it. I find that it should work both ways and not just when you want it to.

Bill

Edited September 28, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Mr. Gray,

According to the way I read the thread, it was Mark Lane who 'added' the bracketed words, not Bill Miller.

Of course, I could be wrong. Could you please direct me to the post that shows Bill did it???

Thanks!!!

Kathy

You are correct, Kathy. A.G. lives in a make believe world of his own where rocks become trees and trees become rocks if that is what he wishes to believe.

Bill

[Bill Miller]

Alan,

Question:

Do you notice an identity of "shape" between the alleged smoke & the red leaf cluster?

Is the smoke only a red leaf cluster?

In the smoke gif the whole frames are moved to move the smoke & the angle also changes.

This, in such a small gif, gives an illusion of smoke movement.

But, there is no smoke.

As I recall, I mentioned that the dark areas of the foliage show up in the clip, but it is the dense white areas that separate the two. I also pointed out that Z419 shows the "C" shaped swirls that are seen in the Wiegman film. Now surely you can see that those shapes are not part of the tree.

Bill Miller

[Alan Healy]

My animation is clearer & it's zoomed into the fence. I've concluded it's not a hat but the shape of the wheel arch on the white vehicle in the background.

So IMO "if you want to know where "Hatman" was positioned", don't look at Nix because "it" is not seen it that film.

I don't know what it is, Alan. Rick brought this to the research community about 8 years ago. A day or so ago you posted that you didn't know what it was. Today you say you have it all figured out. So for 8 years you couldn't figure out what it was and in the past day you have the solution.

Rick use to say that there was movement seen in that clip .... it was one of those things that I couldn't say for sure because of the quality of the film being used. What I do know is that smoke came from that location, thus someone was there.

What is even more interesting is that the Nix camera is looking towards the fence at much the same angle that Bowers had, but from the other direction. You claim to be able to see the other side of the fence so well that you believe that you can see the wheel of a car, but yet you argued that Bowers couldn't see over the fence well enopugh to be able to tell if anyone had been standing on the south side of it. I find that it should work both ways and not just when you want it to.

Bill

Let's try to keep a positive attitude for more than five minutes for a change okay?

This was the course of events;

I saw Rick's gif in the past a number of times, like you, I didn't think it was good enough to make any firm conclusions on the movement that was seen by others.

From memory, I thought the alleged movement was at another place, further west along the fence , not at the position of what I can now cleary see is a vehicle(which I focused on in my attempt).

I had no clue about "Hatman" at that time of viewing Rick's & I even if I did, I certainly had not put them together, not until I was encouraged to by you when you said just recently, there was a connection that we should take a look at.

I remember taking a long look at Rick's quite a few times but I was never able to make my mind up about what I was seeing.

That's what I said & you'll do well to note, I never mentioned "hatman" specifically.

So I made my own & I thought that it might be a little better since some of my captures from Groden's DVD Nix seemed to be slightly superior to what Rick used.

As it turned out, mine is indeed an improvement & from that I was able to make this conclusion;

The black blob which you thought was "Hatman" is actually the wheel arch of the vehicle in the background & it fades in & out of the frames because it is right on the border of the fence top from Nix's camera height.

You were saying that it was Hatman & anyone wanting to find the position of him should study Nix alongside Moorman. That's what I just did.

Now you are saying you "don't know what it is".

What has changed your mind?

Also &, even while trying to keep a positive frame of mind this pretty much takes the biscuit;

the Nix camera is looking towards the fence at much the same angle that Bowers had

That is not the first time you've made this quite remarkable statement & I'll give it the same response that I gave it before, earlier in this very thread.

Bowers eyes were 14-18' higher than Nix's camera lens.

If they were both trying to look through an 18" or so gap between the bushes & the fence, there will be a major difference in what they were able see.

Now feel free to prove me wrong by(for a change) producing some evidence that Bowers & Nix were at or near the same height like you claim.

[Alan Healy]

Two links to the alleged smoke in the trees in Zapruder.

I like the second one because it gives you a different perspective.

Does it move & is it smoke?

Let the viewers decide.

In the tree, right above the RT in WORTH on the sign.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2147/zapsmokead6.gif

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3996/za...mirroredkh1.gif

If anyone wants to improve or has better frames to hand already which I can use, I'll be more than happy to put them together for comparison.

[Alan Healy]

Alan,

Question:

Do you notice an identity of "shape" between the alleged smoke & the red leaf cluster?

Is the smoke only a red leaf cluster?

In the smoke gif the whole frames are moved to move the smoke & the angle also changes.

This, in such a small gif, gives an illusion of smoke movement.

But, there is no smoke.

Miles,

I can't make my mind up on what the shape in the trees is in Wiegman.

I have speculated too, in the past, that it could be just a branch of that red leafed tree getting hit by the sunlight & let's face it, it's pretty much in the same spot as those branches would be from Wiegmans position.

I tried to make another animation today but it's not easy what with the constant movement of his camera & the gaps between frames that give a good impression of this cluster.

I chose five frames for it & I'm sure you can see, the only thing you can use as a marker to position all five frames correctly is the shape of the "smoke" itself.

I haven't given up just yet but it doesn't look good I must admit.

[Bill Miller]

Two links to the alleged smoke in the trees in Zapruder.

I like the second one because it gives you a different perspective.

Does it move & is it smoke?

Let the viewers decide.

In the tree, right above the RT in WORTH on the sign.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2147/zapsmokead6.gif

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3996/za...mirroredkh1.gif

If anyone wants to improve or has better frames to hand already which I can use, I'll be more than happy to put them together for comparison.

Alan,

I am not sure what you are looking at in the frames that you have chosen for seeing possible smoke.

Let me make this simple ... as if I didn't already. I mentioned three "C" shaped swirls in the Wiegman example image. I then went to the Zapruder film and showed the exact same three swirls - except in the frame I used in the Zfilm, they have rotated slightly which is what smoke does .. it turns as it hits the air current. There is no damned way to deny that this isn't smoke seen in midair. You cannot blow them off as tree leaves and in Z's film - they are transparent and bluish in color tone just like real gunsmoke. Would you care to address those swirls or would you rather talk about latter frames where Zapruder has panned passed the swirls???

Bill Miller

Edited September 29, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bernice Moore]

Our source was the same. Groden's "Assassination Films".

Our black blob was the same too, only mine is clearer & you can see now that it's nothing.

No?

I remember taking a long look at Rick's quite a few times but I was never able to make my mind up about what I was seeing.

Now I have.

Maybe someone can find Rick's anyway, just for comparison.

Your animation didn't look as sharp as Rick's. And while I do not know what it is I am seeing in Rick's - it is a solid object just over the fence that is not there in later film pans of the same fence line. I believe it to be something, but what other choices can there be???

Bill

No, my frames are not as sharp but they are a lot clearer.

I found no reason to do anything with the frames I captured other than to lighten them a little.

Rick most likely had a different capture program & may of tried to "enhance" his frames before making his GIF. I don't really know.

One version of Rick's from '05.

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/3825.gif

My animation is clearer & it's zoomed into the fence. I've concluded it's not a hat but the shape of the wheel arch on the white vehicle in the background.

So IMO "if you want to know where "Hatman" was positioned", don't look at Nix because "it" is not seen it that film.

Next!

****************

Alan.

Here are a couple ,one a close up, by Rick, I believe if not ??..The other moves quicker than the one you posted..

...However have a look...The information re Sam Holland and Mary Moorman, are from "SSID"....Thompson.

B

Edited September 29, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Miller]

...However have a look...The information re Sam Holland and Mary Moorman, are from "SSID"....Thompson.

B

Thanks for posting the Thompson pic showing the fedora hat shape was now gone when Josiah took that recreation picture. In the good Moorman print, I could see the fedora shape over the fence. There is light between it and the overhanging tree foliage, thus I knew it wasn't part of the tree. Alan makes a good point about us maybe seeing the wheel of one of the cars and like I said ... it also shows how Bowers could have said he was able to see the south side of the fence so to know if anyone was standing there.

At the same time, I am mystified how Alan has never been able to see the two points that make up the top of a fedora hat in the good Moorman print. Here is a link showing such hats ... maybe it will help.

http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/page/H/CTGY/fedora_hats

Bill

[Bill Miller]

FWIW ... here is how motion blur can cause details to be lost within an image. Note that when the Betzner photo is introduced to motion blur like that which occurred to the images in Wiegman's film as he ran with camera in hand ... Zapruder and Sitzman all but vanish off the pedestal. This is why the more blurred frames in the Wiegman film do not show the smoke on the knoll.

Bill Miller

[Bernice Moore]

Fence…..

Sam Holland : “ The President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and I looked over towards the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come out from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke that I saw ……the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees (20H163).

Four and a half months later: to Asst.Counsel Stern: “There was a shot a report ….and a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees “.(6H244)...when pressed….

Sam: “ I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either. (6H244)….

Interview Nov.30, 1966..” Right under those trees, right at that exact spot, about ten or fifteen feet from this corner, the corner of the fence here, back this way, right under this clump of trees, right under this tree, particular tree. It’s that exact post, right there….snip…..of was about nine feet off the ground …...It would be just about in line with, or maybe just a little bit higher than that fence, but by the time it got out underneath the tree, well, it would be about eight or nine feet . It would be just about in line with, or maybe just a little bit higher than that fence, (the ground slopes off sharply….in front of the fence)…

Holland was not the only witness to see a puff of smoke..

Richard Dodd: who stood next to him on the overpass…...” The shot……the smoke came from behind the hedge on the north side of the Plaza”….Taped interview Mark Lane……Mar.31/66.

.

Austin Miller: affidavit Nov.22/63…” I saw something which I thought was smoke or steam coming from a group of trees north of Elm off the railroad tracks.” ( 24H217)…

James Simmons…….. March, 64…FBI Interview “ fumes of smoke near the embankment in front of the TSBD “..

Walter Winborn & Thomas Murphy ......to an independent investigator......they had observed smoke in the trees along the knoll……( Taped interview , of Winborn May 5, 66…and Murphy ..May 6/66.by Stewart Galanor , cited in Lane, page 40..

Lee Bowers: “At the time of the shooting, in the vicinity of where the two men I have described were, there was a flash of light, or as far as I am concerned something that I could not identify, but there was something which occurred which caught my eye in this immediate area on the embankment. Now, what this was, I could not state at that time and at the time I could not identify it….other than there was some unusual occurrence .. a flash of light or smoke or something which caused me to feel like something out of the ordinary had occurred there.”….Interview Mark Lane Mar.31/66.”.RTJ 66…page 32.)..

.

Bowers WC ..6H287) “ They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other …..and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew. They were facing and looking towards Main and Houston…and following the caravan as it came down.”……Bowers noted some “commotion” near the stockade fence 6H288….

The occurrence …”flash of light or smoke or something..” was observed also by others...who reported it to law-enforcement on the scene…Dep. Sheriffs L.C.Smith, Seymour Weitzman, A.D.McCurley and J.I.Oxford .all spoke of witnesses. who called his attention to the stockade fence…….Smith stated as he ran towards the knoll….” I heard a woman unknown to me say the President was shot in the head and the shots came from the fence on the north side of Elm Street…”…19H516.

Deputy Sherrif Weitzman “ As he came to the fence at the top of the grassy slope, some bystander mentioned that the firecracker or shot had come from the other side of the fence, and he requested a bystander to bend over and he used the bystander’s back as a step and vaulted over the fence”…Archives, CD 5…..

D.S.SEYMOUR WEITZMAN

Mr. BALL - Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. BALL - Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/weitzman.htm

Deputy.Sherrif….McCurley “ I ran over and jumped a fence and a railroad worker stated to me that he believed the smoke from the bullets came from the vicinity of a stockade fence which surrounds the park area.”… 19H514

Deputy .Sherrif……Oxford…” “We jumped the picket fence which was along Elm Street and ran over into the railroad yards. When we got there, there was a man who told us that he had seen smoke up in the corner of the fence ..” 19H530.

Could possibly have been Sam Holland, Dodd or Simmons…

Dodd, Holland and Simmons were so positive a shot had come from the corner of the fence, that as soon as the

Limo had disappeared under the underpass…...beneath them; they then ran to their left

Over the underpass and around into the parking lot…When they arrived near the corner of the fence.

Deputy.Sherrif . Seymour Weiztman joined them at about that time....

Sam Holland: “.snip…….And well you know it had been raining that morning and behind the station wagon ( Light tan Olds 61..Holland’s map…near the corner of the fence) , from one end of the bumper to the other, I expect you could have counted four or five hundred footprints down there. And on the bumper, oh about . And on the bumper, oh about twelve or eighteen inches apart, it looked like someone had raked their shoes off: there were muddy spots up there, like someone had been standing up there”..taped interview, Nov. 30, 1966..

Dodd recalled “.”there were tracks and cigarette butts laying where someone had been standing on the bumper looking over the fence.” Taped interview, Mark Lane ..Mar.24/66

James Simmons.” On Mar.38/66 told Mark Lane that he saw “ foot prints in the mud around the fence, and there were footprints on the wooden two-by-four railing on the fence.”…also…..” Simmons noted mud footprints on a car bumper there, as if someone had stood up there looking over the fence..(“ Rush to Judgment”: Lane page 34 ).

Deputy Sheriff Seymour Weitzman : 7H107: “ numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going in different directions.”…Holland also gave a similar description to the (WC..6H245-246).

Later Holland had stated that the marks were men’s footprints and that he was puzzled by their narrow grouping, “ That was a mystery to me, that they didn’t extend further than from one end of the bumper to the other. That’s as far as they would go. It looked like a lion pacing a cage”..

Holland gave a possible explanation, “Just to the west of the station wagon, there were two set of footprints that left…….I noticed these two footprints leaving : now they could have stepped out between the second and third cars on the gravel or they could’ve got in the trunk compartment of this car and pulled the lid down, which would have been very, very easy. ( Taped interview, Nov30,66)..The trunk compartments of the cars were not searched, someone could have returned later and driven the car out of the parking lot.

The shooter or other man could then have been the SS Agent whose Id was shown to DPD Patrolman Joe Marshall Smith, after a woman rushed up to him and said they were shooting the President from the bushes,( 7H535) he had rushed from Elm & Houston , entered the parking lot, and confronted the SSA behind the stockade fence ..or…if a shooter…or spotter…..if not in a trunk, or mingled with the crowds, ….or made his escape to the northeast….

J.C.Price : The possibility arises that Price saw such a person escaping, ..He was on the roof of the Terminal Annex Building across from the knoll on the Plaza….In and affidavit Nov.22/63 …..” I saw one man run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots. This man had a white dress shirt, no tie, and khaki colored pants

Information from J.C Price, who was watching the motorcade from the roof of the Terminal Annex Building across Dealey Plaza from the knoll...Affidavit Nov.22/63…..

“I saw one man run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots…..his man had a white dress shirt, no tie, and khaki colored trousers…….

His hair appeared to be long and dark and his agility could be about 25 years of age. He

had something in his hand, I couldn’t be sure but it may have been a head piece”……19H492…

…

.Sometime later Price spoke with Mark Lane and told him that the man “ was carrying something in his right hand “ that “ could have been a gun”…..Mar.27/66..taped interview……… ”..He was bareheaded

… which gave me the suspicion that he was doing the shooting but I could be mistaken”..ibid…

Emmett Hudson: Affidavit Nov.22/63…” the shots that I heard definitely came from behind and above me”..19H481.

Nov.26.63 FBI …”Hudson said the shots sounded as if they were fired over his head and from some position to the left of where he was standing. In other wards, the shots sounded as if they were fired by someone at a position, which was behind him, which was above him, and which was to his left .Archives CD 5..

In the Moorman Polaroid .” Behind him , above him, and to his left “ is the corner of the stockade fence. .which also coincide with other witness statements..

Mary Moorman, Nov.22/63.”I was fifteen feet from the car, and evidently I was in the line of fire.” WFAATV….video tape...at the time Mary took her photo , the President was between her and the corner of the fence……so Mary also must have had a line of sight to the shooter….Along the fence line in Mary’s photo there are two anomalies , to the west of the corner two shapes….By comparing a photo taken after you can see the more elongated one is in actuality a railroad signal tower….in the background of the yard……But there is also a round shape approx 14 feet down from the corner of the fence, nothing in the background lines up with this shape.

Sam Holland was asked and taken to the assassination site, and asked to stand in the position where he found the footprints….and also saw the smoke … when a photo was taken of him behind the fence in that exact spot, his head appeared in the exact position defined by the shape in the Moorman photo….Holland had seen a particularly clear copy of the Moorman …….he studied the photo and …..

“” Well, now you have something here………I didn’t see this man before ( about twenty seconds pass, then Holland continues )…Well, do you know , I think that you’re looking right down at the barrel of that gun right now!.’’

.(taped interview Nov.30/66).Thompson....

SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT, COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority on this the 22nd day of

November A.D. 1963, personally appeared Julia Ann Mercer, Address 5200

Belmont, No. 208, Dallas, Age 23, Employed: Automat Distributors, 1720

Canton, Dallas.

Deposes and says:

On November 22, 1963, I was driving a rented White Valient automobile

west on Elm Street and was proceeding to the overpass in a westerly

direction and at a point about 45 or 50 feet east of the overhead signs

of the right entrance road to the overpass, there was a truck parked

on the right hand side of the road. The truck looked like it had 1 or

2 wheels up on the curb. The hood of the truck was open. On the driver's

side of the truck, there were printed letters in black, oval shaped,

which said "Air Conditioning". This was a pickup truck and along the

back side of the truck were what appeared to be tool boxes. The truck

was a green Ford with a Texas license. I remember seeing the word "Ford"

at the back of the truck.

A man was sitting under the wheel of the car and slouched over the wheel.

This man had on a green jacket, was a white male and about his 40's and

was heavy set. I did not see him too clearly. Another man was at the

back of the truck and reached over the tailgate and took out from the

truck what appeared to be a gun case. This case was about 8" wide at its

widest spot and tapered down to a width of about 4" or 5". It was brown

in color. It had a handle and was about 3 1/2 to 4 feet long. The man who

took this out of the truck then proceeded to walk away from the truck and

he reached down to free it. He then proceeded to walk across the grass and

up the grassy hill which forms part of the overpass. This is the last I saw

of this man.

I had been delayed because the truck which I described was blocking

my passage and I had to await until the lane to my left cleared so I could

go by the truck.

During the time that I was at this point and observed the above incident

there were 3 policeman standing talking near a motorcycle on the bridge

just west of me.

The man who took what appeared to be the gun case out of the truck was a

white male, who appeared to be in his late 20's or early 30's and he was

wearing a grey jacket, brown pants and plaid shirt as best as I can

remember. I remember he had on some kind of a hat that looked like a

wool stocking hat with a tassell in the middle of it. I believe that

I can identify this man if I see him again.

The man who remained in the truck had light brown hair and I believe

I could identify him also if I were to see him again.

(signed by) Julia Ann Mercer.

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd of November A.D. 1963

(signed by) Rosemary Allen

Notary Public, Dallas, Texas

<Quote off>-----------------------------------------------------

From “Six Seconds In Dallas”..Josiah Thompson.……

W.C.

Mark Lanes “ Rush to Judgment”…..

Photo below...from Shaws " Cover-Up"

Also photo showing the investigation by the BBN of acoustics in 1978..for the HSCA....

B.......

Edited September 29, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='Ashton Gray' date='Sep 28 2007, 06:35 AM' post='120312']

Of the 13 doctors and nurses in Dallas who witnessed the president's body all described the throat wound as one of entrance.

Your statement is false on its face and uncharacteristically irresponsible.

Ashton:

I stand corrected on that number (13). This was from something I read a very long time ago, written by a respected researcher (Vince Salandria). Additionally however, Malcolm Perry and Dr. Kemp Clark said in the press conference 11/22/63 that the throat wound was of entrance. Dr. Charles Crenshaw did as well, in his book Conspiracy of Silence. Further, Dr Ronald Jones referred to this wound as "very small and clean- cut as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient". So that is no "zero doctors" but four. (And someone who is expert on the medical evidence could likely augment this list.)

I could not read the link you provided (too small and when I clicked to enlarge it did not happen, so I cannot comment on the WC testimony you posted.)

Then there are all the witnesses who heard shots from in front and saw a puff of smoke. Then there is motorcycle officer Bobby Hargis, riding behind the motorcade who was splattered with the president's brains and blood. This could not have occurred from a rear shot. I completely agree that only those who saw the wound prior to Perry's trach. can give a valid opinion re. entrance vs exit.

I am not wedded to any particular "theory", except the FACT that this was as coup d'etat, something I believe we agree on.

Dawn

[Miles Scull]

Alan,

Question:

Do you notice an identity of "shape" between the alleged smoke & the red leaf cluster?

Is the smoke only a red leaf cluster?

In the smoke gif the whole frames are moved to move the smoke & the angle also changes.

This, in such a small gif, gives an illusion of smoke movement.

But, there is no smoke.

As I recall, I mentioned that the dark areas of the foliage show up in the clip, but it is the dense white areas that separate the two. I also pointed out that Z419 shows the "C" shaped swirls that are seen in the Wiegman film. Now surely you can see that those shapes are not part of the tree.

Bill Miller

As I recall, I mentioned that the dark areas of the foliage show up in the clip, but it is the dense white areas that separate the two.

I recall that several times it has been pointed out to you that the Wiegman frames are "black & white."

Bright, sun ray struck clusters of red leaves would blur in the Wiegman frames to appear to be dense white smoke-like smudges against the darker background foliage which was not brightly illuminated by the sun's rays.

The correction occurs when th SHAPE of the red leaf cluster in question is compared to the SHAPE of the smudge.

They are identical in SHAPE.

Why?

Because the smoke is not smoke, but only bright clusters of red leaves.

Have you missed this for years?

I also pointed out that Z419 shows the "C" shaped swirls that are seen in the Wiegman film. Now surely you can see that those shapes are not part of the tree.

The Wiegman film shows no smoke.

What are these "C" shaped swirls?

See:-------->

Note the purple surface patina in the close foreground that moves as a block frame exactly as the camera & its lens move?

This is caused by the sun light striking against residual dried chemical clearer which has been used to clean this lens.

The so-called "C" shaped smoke swirls are nothing but junk on the lens.

Have you missed this for years?

Edited September 29, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Alan Healy]

Two links to the alleged smoke in the trees in Zapruder.

I like the second one because it gives you a different perspective.

Does it move & is it smoke?

Let the viewers decide.

In the tree, right above the RT in WORTH on the sign.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2147/zapsmokead6.gif

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3996/za...mirroredkh1.gif

If anyone wants to improve or has better frames to hand already which I can use, I'll be more than happy to put them together for comparison.

Alan,

I am not sure what you are looking at in the frames that you have chosen for seeing possible smoke.

Let me make this simple ... as if I didn't already. I mentioned three "C" shaped swirls in the Wiegman example image. I then went to the Zapruder film and showed the exact same three swirls - except in the frame I used in the Zfilm, they have rotated slightly which is what smoke does .. it turns as it hits the air current. There is no damned way to deny that this isn't smoke seen in midair. You cannot blow them off as tree leaves and in Z's film - they are transparent and bluish in color tone just like real gunsmoke. Would you care to address those swirls or would you rather talk about latter frames where Zapruder has panned passed the swirls???

Bill Miller

I'm not trying to be awkward or play dumb or anything like that, I looked @Z419 & saw nothing.

If you've posted what you see in 419 in this thread already I apologise, I did not catch it, I'll go look for it after I make this post.

I thought I made it clear in my post above which you quoted, that the possible smoke(albeit not what you were refering to exactly) was above the RT in WORTH on the sign. I wanted to avoid putting a circle around it on the frames themselves but since you are still unsure what I am talking about here's a bit of a clue.

[Miles Scull]

Two links to the alleged smoke in the trees in Zapruder.

I like the second one because it gives you a different perspective.

Does it move & is it smoke?

Let the viewers decide.

In the tree, right above the RT in WORTH on the sign.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2147/zapsmokead6.gif

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/3996/za...mirroredkh1.gif

If anyone wants to improve or has better frames to hand already which I can use, I'll be more than happy to put them together for comparison.

Alan,

I am not sure what you are looking at in the frames that you have chosen for seeing possible smoke.

Let me make this simple ... as if I didn't already. I mentioned three "C" shaped swirls in the Wiegman example image. I then went to the Zapruder film and showed the exact same three swirls - except in the frame I used in the Zfilm, they have rotated slightly which is what smoke does .. it turns as it hits the air current. There is no damned way to deny that this isn't smoke seen in midair. You cannot blow them off as tree leaves and in Z's film - they are transparent and bluish in color tone just like real gunsmoke. Would you care to address those swirls or would you rather talk about latter frames where Zapruder has panned passed the swirls???

Bill Miller

I'm not trying to be awkward or play dumb or anything like that, I looked @Z419 & saw nothing.

If you've posted what you see in 419 in this thread already I apologise, I did not catch it, I'll go look for it after I make this post.

I thought I made it clear in my post above which you quoted, that the possible smoke(albeit not what you were refering to exactly) was above the RT in WORTH on the sign. I wanted to avoid putting a circle around it on the frames themselves but since you are still unsure what I am talking about here's a bit of a clue.

Alan,

Is your finger pointing to lens' grunge?

Are you a member of the grunge brigade?

What do you think?

Edited September 29, 2007 by Miles Scull