On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Bill Miller]

I have said before that IMO no overhead photo shows Bowers' LOS.

I still believe that.

There's a whacking great tree in the way for starters with any view from the air.

Besides that it's just not accurate enough to convince.

I believe that Miles knew before he posted the overhead photo that they couldn't be considered accurate, but they could be used to fool someone into thinking that he was still correct.

Plus of course now, we have both Mack & Groden telling us you have to stand further west on the grass to see the tower & Robert(via Bill) has provided us images.

If anyone would want to resize the images I posted and email them to me ... I'd be happy to replace them with the smaller images so have them fit better on the thread. The laptop I am using doesn't have any programs on it that would allow me to make the images smaller.

Bill

Imsjle@aol.com

[Miles Scull]

So please make me clear on this, are you satisified that Bowers could not see the pathway & any part of the stairs or not?

Alan,

First of all, you do understand that whether Bowers could or could not have seen Hudson standing on the stairs (as, for example, in Moorman) does not change or lessen the import of Bowers' testimony to Lane, that the two men were seen by Bowers in the vicinity of the stairs, do you not?

I assume you say, yes.

OK

Yes, despite the excellent & very helpful snaps from Groden (thanks!), I maintain what I said before, that Bowers could have & did see the west edge of the stairs/sidewalk.

Groden's photos suggest to me that the stairs' edge was visible to Bowers. I think some analysis can demonstrate this. But, leaving that aside for the moment, here's an overlay, Alan, which has Superman X-ray vision for your consideration:

LINK: -- Image of Bowers' LOS to stairs

[Bill Miller]

First of all, you do understand that whether Bowers could or could not have seen Hudson standing on the stairs (as, for example, in Moorman) does not change or lessen the import of Bowers' testimony to Lane, that the two men were seen by Bowers in the vicinity of the stairs, do you not?

I assume you say, yes.

Assuming things is what led you to wasting so much time beating a legless horse into the ground. I had Robert Groden take some more pictures for me today which he will email to me later this evening. I asked Robert the all important question as to whether if you were on the steps where the lowest man is standing and in the grass just west of the sidewalk, could you have seen the tower where Bowers worked. Robert replied to me, "Absolutely not!" Robert says he is 6' 1" tall and he would be too far over the incline to see the tower at that point. I also asked Robert if he stood on the west side of the sidewalk leading from the shelter down to the steps - could he turn and see the tower that Bowers sat in during the assassination and Robert said, "No!" Robert said that Bowers could not have seen the walkway at all - that someone would have to step off the west-most end of sidewalk and into the grass to be seen from the tower.

Yes, despite the excellent & very helpful snaps from Groden (thanks!), I maintain what I said before, that Bowers could have & did see the west edge of the stairs/sidewalk.

It is nice to maintain a position, but one should probably state exactly on what grounds is that position is being maintained. Groden was there and actually tested these LOS in person while being on site and Robert's findings do not support your assertions. So which should be believed as factual data ... the person who is actually on site and testing your allegations or you who are merely making them by drawing lines through heavily foliaged tree tops seen on aerial photos???

Groden's photos suggest to me that the stairs' edge was visible to Bowers. I think some analysis can demonstrate this. But, leaving that aside for the moment, here's an overlay, Alan, which has Superman X-ray vision for your consideration:

I don't know why anyone would think that shading an overhead view from so high up in the air would somehow add more clarity to the naked eye, but I assume it goes hand in hand with accepting a degraded multi-generational blurred film print over Towner's sharp camera originals. The same view in post #529 can be seen without the darkened shaded colorization and the west edge of the steps cannot be seen in such a way that Bowers could have seen it from inside the tower. In fact, the on-site examinations reported in this thread show this to be just the case.

Now let us go back and examine just what exactly had been asked of Bowers and just what did he mean by his response. The following is my interpretation for others to consider.

Mr. BALL - Now, were there any people standing on the high side---high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

It seems very clear to me that Mr. Ball is asking Bowers about his left to right field of view of the "High Ground" that he and Lee had separated from what Bowers called the "Incline" when talking about the slope of the knoll from where it meets the high ground and goes down to the street. Ball wants to know if there were any people seen on the "High Ground" in the RR yard.

Mr. BOWERS - Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men.

("Directly in line towards the mouth of the underpass") Here Bowers narrows down the location. Note that Bowers didn't even say 'on a direct line with the mouth of the underpass', but instead is just says "towards the mouth of the underpass". In the past, some researchers have drawn a direct straight line from the tower to the underpass which would make it appear that these two men were closer to the west end of the fence, but that is not exactly what Bowers had said.

Mr. Bowers - One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Bowers doesn't say that one skinny man is heavier than the other skinny man, but this is what Miles needed to claim that Bowers meant to even make his allegation stay a-float. In fact, Bowers makes no physical comparison to the weight of one man compared to the other. Instead Bowers merely makes an observation as to the one man's size to what others would perceive the norm to be.

Mr. BALL - Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS - They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL - In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS - They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

The above testimony totally destroys any notion that Bowers was seeing any of the men on the steps and the reason is quite simple when one goes to one of the known men's testimony where Emmett stated that he (Hudson) and the man next to him were sitting on the steps and did not rise to their feet until the caravan turned onto Elm Street from Houston Street. Hudson didn't say that he and the man next to him was sitting out on the grass, which is the only place where Bowers even had a chance to see them, but were rather sitting on the steps when the caravan entered Dealey Plaza. This fact, of several, proves beyond any doubt that Bowers was never talking about the men on the steps when he said 'they were '10 to 15' apart and looking towards Main and Houston Streets when the caravan entered the plaza'. It is now a known fact that anyone standing on the landing mid-way down the incline and below could not have been seen from the tower, thus if Bowers saw two men looking towards Main and Houston Streets when the caravan turned onto Houston - Lee Bowers was obviously seeing someone else other than the men on the steps.

Now if one goes back to the photo that Robert took of the landing that Emmett Hudson sat on until standing up when the caravan turned onto Elm Street ... not only are the steps at that point positioned ever further east than the walkway, but Hudson's sitting height would not have allowed Bowers to see him even if Lee could have looked through the concrete wall with those 'superman like X-ray powers' that Miles touched on. The fact is that to make the three men on the steps out to be the two men Bowers spoke of - nearly everything asked to Bowers and said by Bowers must be re-written. The shelter must be made to be transparent and the "High Ground" must be made into the "Incline". Once this is done, then and only then can one become one of the select people who are willing to throw out the facts in order to sell a fallacy.

Fallacy: A false notion. A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference. A misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Thanks for the photo's showing the LOS TO THE TOWER.

You are quite welcome, Robin. The photos have since been resized thanks to the assistance of a fellow forum member.

Bill

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

Thanks for the photo's showing the LOS TO THE TOWER.

You are quite welcome, Robin.

Bill

Alan,

Before analysing the Groden pics, which will show the LOS as seeing the west edge of the stairs, & Bowers' statements to Ball & Lane, etc., I thought you might be interested to note another aerial which demonstrates that Bowers' LOS sees the west edge of the stairs.

LINK: -- Image of Bowers' LOS to Stairs' Edge

[Evan Burton]

Bill, for some reason your post #533 appeared seven times. I deleted the first six, leaving the latest.

[Bill Miller]

Before analysing the Groden pics, which will show the LOS as seeing the west edge of the stairs, & Bowers' statements to Ball & Lane, etc., I thought you might be interested to note another aerial which demonstrates that Bowers' LOS sees the west edge of the stairs.

Miles,

I think you are quickly finding out that others are not going to allow themselves to go on record as looking like idiots by trying to embrace the things you are attempting to sell so to salvage a claim that is proven wrong by real world high resolution images. While it might be viewed as being against the forum rules to quantify another members intelligence and I want to make it clear that even intelligent people make mistakes ... JFK admitted to being one of those people, but I believe that the rules do allow us to use general descriptions concerning the general population at large, so here is a saying that I have posted in the past that is worth your consideration ....

"The difference between a smart person and a not so smart person is that the not so smart person will never see when he or she is wrong."

In the pictures below, Robert Groden stood at the end of the sidewalk and took a photograph from its west-most outer edge. In that photo it is obvious that the train tower window where Bowers sat cannot be seen (assuming that Bowers sat at his west-most window). It took Groden to step over the small fence and onto the grass/dirt to get the train tower window in his photo. This proves IMO beyond any doubt that Bowers could not have even seen the edge of the sidewalk and more importantly ... he couldn't see anyone east of its outer west-most border.

Bill Miller

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Bill, for some reason your post #533 appeared seven times. I deleted the first six, leaving the latest.

Evan, I cannot explain that. On my screen I saw it only once. When I refresh and ever notice a duplicate post - I always remove it. I wish I could, but I cannot explain many of the glitches that I have experienced using this forum's software.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

Alan,

Here's an image which shows the bend & cant of the stairs away from vertical re: pergola west wall. A bulge west as from the Ardennes Forrest.

Analysis of Groden's pics (many thx for same!) will show that a portion of Hudson is visible to Bowers.

My supposition is that Hudson's right arm extends beyond the west extremity of the stairs.

For the moment, on this basis , Alan, you could draw your own conclusions regardless of mine.

Your opinion?

Link: -- Image of Bulge

Edited October 21, 2007 by Evan Burton
Removed superfluous quote

[Bill Miller]

Alan,

Here's an image which shows the bend & cant of the stairs away from vertical re: pergola west wall. A bulge west as from the Ardennes Forrest.

Analysis of Groden's pics (many thx for same!) will show that a portion of Hudson is visible to Bowers.

My supposition is that Hudson's right arm extends beyond the west extremity of the stairs.

For the moment, on this basis , Alan, you could draw your own conclusions regardless of mine.

Yes, it will be interesting to see if Alan also notices that blueprints, while measured to scale - do not reflect picture perfect overlays against real life photos. This one in particular shows several problems such as the centering of the trees along the walkway, the north end of the fence seen not running along the edge of the parking-lot, but rather out into it by several feet.

In the Groden real-world photo taken along the west edge of the steps from the grass side ... somewhere around the third step down one can see how the rest of the steps keep pitching eastward.

What would be interesting after seeing your (Miles) previous response - I bet the forum members would be interested to see how the concrete wall and other defining landmarks match up off a blueprint when overlaid onto a real photograph. This is best done by using somewhere around a 50% transparency of the blueprint so the real world aerial photo can be seen through it.

Side note: Oh BTW, I hope that if there are any forum members here with gambling problems and who are over sensitive about their addiction ... feel free to write the moderators about my use of the word "BET".

Bill Miller

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Chris Davidson]

Alan,

Here's an image which shows the bend & cant of the stairs away from vertical re: pergola west wall. A bulge west as from the Ardennes Forrest.

Analysis of Groden's pics (many thx for same!) will show that a portion of Hudson is visible to Bowers.

My supposition is that Hudson's right arm extends beyond the west extremity of the stairs.

For the moment, on this basis , Alan, you could draw your own conclusions regardless of mine.

Yes, it will be interesting to see if Alan also notices that blueprints, while measured to scale - do not reflect picture perfect overlays against real life photos. This one in particular shows several problems such as the centering of the trees along the walkway, the north end of the fence seen not running along the edge of the parking-lot, but rather out into it by several feet.

In the Groden real-world photo taken along the west edge of the steps from the grass side ... somewhere around the third step down one can see how the rest of the steps keep pitching eastward.

What would be interesting after seeing your (Miles) previous response - I bet the forum members would be interested to see how the concrete wall and other defining landmarks match up off a blueprint when overlaid onto a real photograph. This is best done by using somewhere around a 50% transparency of the blueprint so the real world aerial photo can be seen through it.

Side note: Oh BTW, I hope that if there are any forum members here with gambling problems and who are over sensitive about their addiction ... feel free to write the moderators about my use of the word "BET".

Bill Miller

Robert West plat/Google aerial, composited

Tower is cut off a bit.

chris

[Miles Scull]

Alan,

Here's an image which shows the bend & cant of the stairs away from vertical re: pergola west wall. A bulge west as from the Ardennes Forrest.

Analysis of Groden's pics (many thx for same!) will show that a portion of Hudson is visible to Bowers.

My supposition is that Hudson's right arm extends beyond the west extremity of the stairs.

For the moment, on this basis , Alan, you could draw your own conclusions regardless of mine.

Robert West plat/Google aerial, composited

Tower is cut off a bit.

chris

Chris & Alan,

In this image (see link) as the yellow line rotates counter clockwise on a fulcrum located at a point where it intersects the red line, then the tower (& Bowers) will come into view.

Question: how far does the yellow line rotate until Bowers sees Hudson or part of Hudson?

Until the yellow line coincides with the red line?

LINK: -- Image of Bowers' LOS to Hudson

[Bill Miller]

Chris & Alan,

In this image (see link) as the yellow line rotates counter clockwise on a fulcrum located at a point where it intersects the red line, then the tower (& Bowers) will come into view.

Question: how far does the yellow line rotate until Bowers sees Hudson or part of Hudson?

Until the yellow line coincides with the red line?

It's really a shame that Bowers wasn't positioned in the eaves of the tower because then and only then could he have at least seen a few inches of the outer edge of the walkway. If that could have been the case, then he possibly could have seen a small fraction of Hudson's right shoulder (provided Hudson stood exactly along the outer edge of the sidewalk where I had asked Groden to go to so to get the best LOS) which somehow would supposedly give Lee a mental image of the two other men positioned further east and out of sight because of the concrete shelter.

But most unfortunately Lee Bowers was positioned inside the tower and the best possible view he could have had to see anything between the fence and the walkway was if he went as far west inside his little room that he could go and press his nose right up against the west-most section of the glass on the south side of his room. When Groden stood along the west-most outer edge of the sidewalk - Robert could not see the window without stepping over the little black fencing and onto the grass.

Today, Robert was supposed to take photos from directly under Bowers window with someone standing on the west-most outer edge of the walkway - on the outer west-most edge of the steps where Hudson sat and eventually stood up - and one more from the outer west-most lower step where the red shirted man was positioned. I also hope that Robert remembered to take yet another photo with him sitting on the steps where Hudson was located so to show if there was or was not a possible LOS from the tower to Hudson as the caravan entered the plaza. This was to be done because Lee Bowers said the two men he saw were standing and facing Main and Houston when the caravan entered the plaza, while Hudson testified that he and the man sitting east of him was sitting down and didn't rise to their feet until the caravan turned from Houston and onto Elm Street.

Once these last images are posted, I will leave them to who ever wishes to study them and apply them to the propaganda machine still trying to erroneously claim that the three men on the steps were somehow the two men Bowers told Mr. Ball about. Keep in mind that we have all been told from the beginning that everyone for 45 years had it wrong when thinking Bowers was talking about two men behind the fence in the RR yard while Myers and Miles were the only two men who had it right by saying that Bowers saw the men on the steps. And even though neither of these two individuals had the foresight to actually test that LOS with anything other than cartoons and a very blurry image taken by Josiah Thomson, at least one of them seems to desire to ignore the real world evidence and continue on pushing a fallacy.

I will post Robert's images just as soon as I get them and have them downsized. And for those who are cannot wait to see them, I will tell you that I called Groden as I typed this message and asked how it went in the plaza today. Robert said that he got the photos taken and when asked if one could stand under Bowers window and see anyone standing on the west-most side of the walkway ... Robert replied, "No chance in Hell!" When asked if he could be seen standing on the west-most edge of the Hudson step ... Robert replied, "No, I couldn't even see the tower from there." When asked if he could see the tower when sitting on the west-most side of the step where Hudson was located ... Robert replied, "No, sitting down made me even lower over the hill." The same was said about his doing the same at the location of the red shirted man.

Bill Miller

Edited October 21, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

Pictures that Groden took from inside the tower in 1991. These two images are for research purposes and Groden has them copyrighted.

Bill Miller

Edited October 22, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

View from under the west-most side of the tower windows at ground level. Note that the fence running down the walkway is not visible.

Bill Miller

Edited October 22, 2007 by Bill Miller