Was Ruby faking it?

[Greg Parker]

I have started this thread for the specific benefit of Richard Wesler, a new member who happens to be a forensic psychologist - a profession in which Wiki states the practitioner must "be able to recognize exaggerated or faked symptoms" for the purpose of assessments made for the justice system.

Just as a refresher: Ruby's defense was that he suffered from motorpsycho epilepsy - a condition causing a fugue-like state. Ruby himself claimed not to remember the shooting; was said to have only calmed down once he learned Oswald had died and; had been taking unknown quantities of Preludin and other psychotropics for an unknown period prior to Nov 24, 1963.

Richard has kindly agreed to look at any pertinent information regarding Ruby's mental state. Whether or not he can make an informed assessment on what is provided -- or even has the time to do so, is another matter. I thank him in advance, in any case.

Ruby's psychiatrists were Dr's Bromberg, Schafer and Guttmacher. Most reliance was placed on Bromberg, though all made similar conclusions. However, as Bromberg was the main doctor, most of the following concentrates on him.

As an aside, it should come as no surprise that when searching for these documents, I came across numerous FBI reports which had only one aim - smearing Bromberg with allegations he was both a pervert and a commie.

Dr Bromberg - various govt reports re his Ruby findings

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=685855

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=685849

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=679371

Dr Bromberg's testimony at Ruby trial

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=358529

Bromberg report to defemse team

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm (box 4, folder 1, file 37)

Schafer report to defense team

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm (box 4, folder 1, file 34)

Guttmacher report to defense team

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm (box 4, folder 1, file 38)

Ruby Medical History - author unknown

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box4.htm (box 4, folder 1, file 35)

Ruby WC testimony

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ruby_j1.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/ruby_j2.htm

Warren Commion Report bio on Ruby

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warre...ppendix-16.html

I have not included any reports or findings made during the appeal stage by the psychiatrists involved during that phase including the court-appointed Dr Joly West. But that does lead to a second aside... a Mexican newspaper had this to say in a story regarding the appeal...

For the time being, the chances that Ruby will be executed in accordance with the sentence of March 14, is very remote. Various appeals and petitions against the sentence and trial are currently being resorted to. Now it is necessary to wait, in addition, for the supposed insanity of Ruby to be resolved. If he is declared insane, he will go to an institution from which he can only leave dead or cured. If cured, he would be brought again to trial to determine whether or not he was insane when he killed Oswald.

In short, Ruby is assured of life for some time, unless "outside forces" might liquidate him

so that he does not uncover some of the obscure points that exist in the assassination...

Edited February 9, 2008 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Dr. West, as far as is known, had only one contact with Ruby alone. He should not be totally ignored IMO - as he had clear Intelligence connections and was also an expert in hypnosis and mind-control.

Peter, I may not have been sufficiently clear. I'm hoping we can utilize Richard's professional expertize to assess Ruby's mental state at the time he shot Oswald. The psychiatrists I named were all working for the defense, and endorsed motorpsycho epilepsy as being the cause of Ruby's apparent lack of recall. If Ruby was not conscious of what he was doing, then he could not be found guilty (as I understand it).

As we know, that defense failed, and an appeal was launched through a different defense team. West became involved at this stage and was not required to determine Ruby's state of mind at the time he murdered Oswald. For that reason, he is not relevant to this discussion - though most certainly worthy of discussion in his own right. I can tell you he saw Ruby at least twice, but I believe it was actually 3 or 4 times.

As to whether Ruby was faking it....the list is long, but just two:

- asking if others didn't think he'd make a good actor

- much of what he told the WC, implied he was faking it, on instructions...

Off the top, I can think of two ways Ruby's comment about being an actor can be taken. Same goes for any implication he was attempting to make that he was faking it on instruction. A forensic psychologist may well see a number of other possible meanings and motivations in and for his words.

[Dawn Meredith]

I believe this testimony says it all:

Mr. RUBY. Unfortunately, you don't have, because it is too late. And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my guilt or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I am afraid I don't know what power you believe he relinquished to them. I think that it is difficult to understand what you have to say.

Mr. RUBY. I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time. Do I sound sort of screwy--in telling you these things?

Chief Justice WARREN. No; I think that is what you believe, or you wouldn't tell it under your oath.

Mr. RUBY. But it is a very serious situation. I guess it is too late to stop it, isn't it?

And we have been the victims of this "new form of government" ever since. It certainly is not called "democracy".

Dawn

[Greg Parker]

I believe this testimony says it all:

Mr. RUBY. Unfortunately, you don't have, because it is too late. And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my guilt or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I am afraid I don't know what power you believe he relinquished to them. I think that it is difficult to understand what you have to say.

Mr. RUBY. I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time. Do I sound sort of screwy--in telling you these things?

Chief Justice WARREN. No; I think that is what you believe, or you wouldn't tell it under your oath.

Mr. RUBY. But it is a very serious situation. I guess it is too late to stop it, isn't it?

And we have been the victims of this "new form of government" ever since. It certainly is not called "democracy".

Dawn

Thanks Dawn. None of what follows should be taken as meaning I necessarily disagree.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for minute... if Ruby was the Great Actor, how do we tell when he's acting and when he's not? Great actors can not only deliver the lines written for them, but also believably ad lib when needed. And if he was not the Great Actor, what do we make of the belief that the Jewish people were being exterminated in order for this usurping of power to take place?

There are layers and there are layers overlapping layers of potential meaning and intent.

And there is (also) brain trauma, psychopathy, delusion... through self-infliction, genetics, environment, or induced...

We have an expert in these matters in our midst and I for one would relish his opinion on Ruby's mental state at the time of his murder of Oswald (but understand completely if he does not want to become embroiled in this quagmire).

Ruby's latter mental state can - and should be - looked at separately. It is here that West may be an important player.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Greg Parker

[Dawn Meredith]

I believe this testimony says it all:

Mr. RUBY. Unfortunately, you don't have, because it is too late. And I wish that our beloved President, Lyndon Johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my guilt or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people.

Chief Justice WARREN. Well, I am afraid I don't know what power you believe he relinquished to them. I think that it is difficult to understand what you have to say.

Mr. RUBY. I want to say this to you. The Jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. Consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and I know I won't live to see you another time. Do I sound sort of screwy--in telling you these things?

Chief Justice WARREN. No; I think that is what you believe, or you wouldn't tell it under your oath.

Mr. RUBY. But it is a very serious situation. I guess it is too late to stop it, isn't it?

And we have been the victims of this "new form of government" ever since. It certainly is not called "democracy".

Dawn

Thanks Dawn. None of what follows should be taken as meaning I necessarily disagree.

Let me play Devil's Advocate for minute... if Ruby was the Great Actor, how do we tell when he's acting and when he's not? Great actors can not only deliver the lines written for them, but also believably ad lib when needed. And if he was not the Great Actor, what do we make of the belief that the Jewish people were being exterminated in order for this usurping of power to take place?

There are layers and there are layers overlapping layers of potential meaning and intent.

And there is (also) brain trauma, psychopathy, delusion... through self-infliction, genetics, environment, or induced...

We have an expert in these matters in our midst and I for one would relish his opinion on Ruby's mental state at the time of his murder of Oswald (but understand completely if he does not want to become embroiled in this quagmire).

Ruby's latter mental state can - and should be - looked at separately. It is here that West may be an important player.

I don't think he was any kind of an actor, nor do I think he was delusional. I think at this point he was terrified. He did as told and knew his turn was next. (Notice how often he refers to his own impending death and that of his family). The first time I ever read this particular testimony, (in the 70's), I was blown away by it. It is both a confession and as close to an admission of a most powerful conspiracy as we have ever come, from one of the key players.

Dawn

[William Kelly]

Now can we hear from Richard Wesler?

Thanks,

BK