Roswell Revisited

[Guest David Guyatt]

David,

How is advanced terrestrial aircraft used if it is kept secret? Are you suggesting that UFOs are test flights? Spanning decades? I would assume that the military would want to develop and use advanced terrestrial aircraft for warfare. In which of our wars over the decades have such aircraft, formerly mistaken as UFOs, ever been used? What known military aircraft today were once "UFOs"? Or is all of this advanced aircraft being saved up for Armageddon?

Ron, this is indeed an important question to be asked. In trying to answer I would go back to first causes, namely the 29th June 1947 sighting by Kenneth Arnold flying over the Cascade mountains. This was the first sighting where the term "flying saucers" was used by the press to describe Arnold's craft. Arnold later stated that one of the objects he saw resembled a "crescent" or "flying wing":

Which compare to this, the Nazi Horton HO IX (Gotha Go 229):

It is my view that from that period onwards, captured advanced nazi aircraft testing (both hardware and prototypes built from scratch using German blueprints) represented genuine sightings, that were covered up by the military to fox the Soviet Union about US aviation research and advances. Meanwhile the great bulk of sightings said to be ufo's are simply misidentification of mundane things and events (normal aircraft seen from odd angles etc).

I would add a further point that I believe is significant. This concerns a FOIA document I was shown many years ago (USAF I believe, but cannot recall for certain now) which stated that there was a Pentagon plan to activate a nuclear first strike against the Soviet Union using a "ufo flap" as a cloak to forestall or delay a Soviet counter-strike. The clear implication here is that a "ufo flap" could be manufactured to order by US military forces for such a first strike plan to proceed.

The Horton Flying Wing was clearly an early template for what is now the B2 Spirit bomber, as has been previously discussed, which goes towards explaining either the lead time in bringing such nazi technology to fruition, or lost chances that were later re-invigorated:

The Horton Ho229 and the B2 Flying Wing superimposed together.

In this respect Nick Cook's and Joseph Farrell's books on the subject are an indispensable resource for the inquiring mind and provide a great deal of important background historical information.

However, I don't think it is all entirely as simple as this. Both Cook's book and Farrell's SS Brotherhood of the Bell provides some very thought provoking ideas about a rump of nazis who survived the war and who centre around the very mysterious SS General Kammler and Schwarze Sonne technology. Even so, these speculations are focused solely on terrestrial technology.

[Ron Ecker]

Jack,

Thanks for passing that along. There is still an element of that lady's story (that is, her father's story) that I must take with a grain of salt. As far as I know, telepathy is still in the realm of science fiction, like time travel, and to me the idea of telepathic communication in English by an alien to even one human (she said that others with her father got the message simultaneously) seems a little too advanced for even an advanced civilization. I'm not saying it didn't happen. (I've heard about people doing remarkable things in ESP labs and all that.) I think there are two possibilities. The guy was telling the truth, or he had watched too many episodes of The Twilight Zone. (Depending on how long after 1947 he first told this story.)

[Charles Drago]

Ahhh ... But then again, tales of concocted alien technology serving as cover stories for the testing of advanced terrestrial craft would, in the agregate, amount to the perfect cover story for ... alien visitations.

Might there be a third alternative?

[Jack White]

Jack,

Thanks for passing that along. There is still an element of that lady's story (that is, her father's story) that I must take with a grain of salt. As far as I know, telepathy is still in the realm of science fiction, like time travel, and to me the idea of telepathic communication in English by an alien to even one human (she said that others with her father got the message simultaneously) seems a little too advanced for even an advanced civilization. I'm not saying it didn't happen. (I've heard about people doing remarkable things in ESP labs and all that.) I think there are two possibilities. The guy was telling the truth, or he had watched too many episodes of The Twilight Zone. (Depending on how long after 1947 he first told this story.)

Ron...I prefer to confess that I do not know all things. Sometimes we see through a glass darkly.

I dislike the word ALIEN. I prefer "other being" or the like. Alien is more commonly used for

people from other earthly countries. In our egocentric society, we think of MAN as the superior

animal in the universe. But perhaps there are "other beings" superior to us. And who is to say

that language is the only form of communication? Languages represent thoughts, whether the

thoughts are in English, Spanish or French. What if superior "other beings" have the ability to

communicate thoughts directly from one brain to another without tongue or ear?

When younger I had a dog who seemed to read my thoughts, or at least grasp things I said.

If I was thinking of taking her for a walk, she would trot over and look at me. If anyone mentioned

the word WATERMELON, she went wild with excitement, because she loved to eat watermelon.

She could tell whether I was happy or sad or angry. I believe dogs have high intelligence and

ability to communicate.

We must admit that we do not know all things.

Jack

Edited July 7, 2008 by Jack White

[Evan Burton]

Duane, who is still banned from the forum by Burton,.....

You have been told before Jack, told by John, told by Andy, that I did not ban Duanne. I do not have that power. To the best of my knowledge, he chooses not to post here (though John or Andy can confirm that).

Your continual misrepresentation of the facts demonstrates your lack of respect for other members. I have requested that John formally reprimand you for these continual slurs on my character.

I am making your post invisible so that you will be unable to edit it.

Edited to add:

The remainder of Jack's post, minus the personal attack, contained a comment from Duane, who said:

Jack...She didn't say graves, she said "greys", as in little alien beings that were strewn across the crash site, dead, along with the wreckage and also one who was still alive and communicating telepathically with her fireman father... Her father was one of the few civilian witnesses to see the alien bodies before the military swooped in to recover all of the evidence, concoct the bogus "weather balloon story" and then devise a cover-up that has lasted for over 60 years .

Edited July 7, 2008 by Evan Burton
Added remainder of Jack's post

[Guest David Guyatt]

Ahhh ... But then again, tales of concocted alien technology serving as cover stories for the testing of advanced terrestrial craft would, in the agregate, amount to the perfect cover story for ... alien visitations.

Might there be a third alternative?

And indeed, since the facts about advanced Nazi aircraft has become publicly known in recent ears, so too has sprung up stories claiming that the Nazi advances ere based on reverse engineering of downed alien craft.

To my ear this s simply the old triple cross trick in action, that, as we know, operates advantageously in military areas one wishes to wrap firmly in secrecy... Churchill's old saw that: "truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

What both sides of the argument can agree on is that something real resides behind all the smoke and mirrors that blanket the UFO subject. To my mind that is about as close as we can get.

I would need hard and indisputable evidence of alien involvement to shift my opinion -- that I have already shifted once in my life. I have gone from convert to doubting thomas. This shift was based solely on the accumulated evidence now available.

Having said all that I am open to a "third alternative" which I assume Charles, dwells within Vallee's "Passport to Magonia"?

This option has the advantage of combining, in theory anyway, the Nazi Scharze Sonne activities to "other-world" material manifestations, plus the design and manufacture of man made aircraft drawn from the very peculiar dynamics of Scharze Sonne philosophy. That road is highly complex and may well be far more terrifying and, therefore, sufficient, perhaps even compelling reason, to cloak it behind a bodyguard of lies.

[Charles Drago]

Ahhh ... But then again, tales of concocted alien technology serving as cover stories for the testing of advanced terrestrial craft would, in the agregate, amount to the perfect cover story for ... alien visitations.

Might there be a third alternative?

And indeed, since the facts about advanced Nazi aircraft has become publicly known in recent ears, so too has sprung up stories claiming that the Nazi advances ere based on reverse engineering of downed alien craft.

To my ear this s simply the old triple cross trick in action, that, as we know, operates advantageously in military areas one wishes to wrap firmly in secrecy... Churchill's old saw that: "truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

What both sides of the argument can agree on is that something real resides behind all the smoke and mirrors that blanket the UFO subject. To my mind that is about as close as we can get.

I would need hard and indisputable evidence of alien involvement to shift my opinion -- that I have already shifted once in my life. I have gone from convert to doubting thomas. This shift was based solely on the accumulated evidence now available.

Having said all that I am open to a "third alternative" which I assume Charles, dwells within Vallee's "Passport to Magonia"?

This option has the advantage of combining, in theory anyway, the Nazi Scharze Sonne activities to "other-world" material manifestations, plus the design and manufacture of man made aircraft drawn from the very peculiar dynamics of Scharze Sonne philosophy. That road is highly complex and may well be far more terrifying and, therefore, sufficient, perhaps even compelling reason, to cloak it behind a bodyguard of lies.

Yup.

[Jack White]

Duane, who is still banned from the forum by Burton,.....

You have been told before Jack, told by John, told by Andy, that I did not ban Duanne. I do not have that power. To the best of my knowledge, he chooses not to post here (though John or Andy can confirm that).

Your continual misrepresentation of the facts demonstrates your lack of respect for other members. I have requested that John formally reprimand you for these continual slurs on my character.

I am making your post invisible so that you will be unable to edit it.

Edited to add:

The remainder of Jack's post, minus the personal attack, contained a comment from Duane, who said:

Jack...She didn't say graves, she said "greys", as in little alien beings that were strewn across the crash site, dead, along with the wreckage and also one who was still alive and communicating telepathically with her fireman father... Her father was one of the few civilian witnesses to see the alien bodies before the military swooped in to recover all of the evidence, concoct the bogus "weather balloon story" and then devise a cover-up that has lasted for over 60 years .

Apparently Duane was not BANNED, but placed on MODERATION. Here is the quote

from his email.

"If you would like to post this information for me on the EF, I would very much appreciate it , as Evan Burton had me placed on modertion again before I left the forum, and I am not able to post unless my posts are approved by him."

Apparently I have committed a semantical mistake. I guess there must be a difference

between BANNED and MODERATION.

Jack

[Len Colby]

Apparently Duane was not BANNED, but placed on MODERATION. Here is the quote

from his email.

"If you would like to post this information for me on the EF, I would very much appreciate it , as Evan Burton had me placed on modertion again before I left the forum, and I am not able to post unless my posts are approved by him."

SInce he continues to distort what happens my guess he will never be taken of moderatio, but he has only himself to blame. By all accounts any moderator or administrator can approve a post and John made the decision to have him put on moderation.

Apparently I have committed a semantical mistake. I guess there must be a difference

between BANNED and MODERATION.

Obviously

Edited July 7, 2008 by Len Colby

[John Simkin]

Duane, who is still banned from the forum by Burton,.....

You have been told before Jack, told by John, told by Andy, that I did not ban Duanne. I do not have that power. To the best of my knowledge, he chooses not to post here (though John or Andy can confirm that).

Your continual misrepresentation of the facts demonstrates your lack of respect for other members. I have requested that John formally reprimand you for these continual slurs on my character.

I am making your post invisible so that you will be unable to edit it.

Apparently Duane was not BANNED, but placed on MODERATION. Here is the quote

from his email.

"If you would like to post this information for me on the EF, I would very much appreciate it , as Evan Burton had me placed on modertion again before I left the forum, and I am not able to post unless my posts are approved by him."

Apparently I have committed a semantical mistake. I guess there must be a difference

between BANNED and MODERATION.

Jack

Duane is not banned from posting on this forum. He is on moderation, which means that his posts have to be approved by moderators before it becomes visiable. This was decided by a majority vote and was not done by Evan. As he points out, moderators do not have this power.

It appears that Duane is not willing to post under these conditions. That is his decision. However, it is not acceptable for other members to post for him. If that happens, they will also be placed on moderation.

[Guest David Guyatt]

Ahhh ... But then again, tales of concocted alien technology serving as cover stories for the testing of advanced terrestrial craft would, in the agregate, amount to the perfect cover story for ... alien visitations.

Might there be a third alternative?

And indeed, since the facts about advanced Nazi aircraft has become publicly known in recent ears, so too has sprung up stories claiming that the Nazi advances ere based on reverse engineering of downed alien craft.

To my ear this s simply the old triple cross trick in action, that, as we know, operates advantageously in military areas one wishes to wrap firmly in secrecy... Churchill's old saw that: "truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies."

What both sides of the argument can agree on is that something real resides behind all the smoke and mirrors that blanket the UFO subject. To my mind that is about as close as we can get.

I would need hard and indisputable evidence of alien involvement to shift my opinion -- that I have already shifted once in my life. I have gone from convert to doubting thomas. This shift was based solely on the accumulated evidence now available.

Having said all that I am open to a "third alternative" which I assume Charles, dwells within Vallee's "Passport to Magonia"?

This option has the advantage of combining, in theory anyway, the Nazi Scharze Sonne activities to "other-world" material manifestations, plus the design and manufacture of man made aircraft drawn from the very peculiar dynamics of Scharze Sonne philosophy. That road is highly complex and may well be far more terrifying and, therefore, sufficient, perhaps even compelling reason, to cloak it behind a bodyguard of lies.

Yup.

To wit:

"We need more understanding of human nature, because the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger, and we are pitifully unaware of it. We know nothing of man, far too little. His psyche should studied, because we are the origin of all coming evil."

Carl G Jung

(my italics)