Georgia attacks Sth Ossetia

[Christopher Hall]

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers

Then a) you're education is shamefully limited, as the Soviet period of Russian history lasted a mere 70+ years; and you've a very selective memory - not recall what he had to say about the US?

Georgia, with obvious US approval, attacked a province of the former USSR which made the same decision to divorce as Georgia did - only the South Ossitians chose to remain with Moscow. Your inability to comment on the obvious fact of Georgian aggression represents precisely the kind of divorce from observable reality that characterises the Bush White House.

Paul

Paul-

Why don't you tell us about your vast education, since you believe that mine is "shamefully limited"?

If you want to compare sheepskins, I will be happy to do so, but I think that would be a little silly.

Whatever your education is, you obviously missed the day that your professors taught manners and reasoned discourse.

You don't have to denigrate me to disagree with my positions.

I will debate issues with you in an adult manner anytime.

I also don't know what in my post led you to conclude that I thought the Soviet period began many centuries ago.

But the USSR period, quite obviously, comprises most of the modern history of Russia, and it is a history of oppression and subjugation of its various "states".

I don't see a lot of its former states or Soviet block countries wanting to go back to the days of the USSR and its brand of communism.

[Christopher Hall]

That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

Wasn't Georgia a former captive state in the USSR for 40 or 50 years?

Georgia was protected by Imperial Russia since 1783. Georgia requested incorporation into Russia in 1800. Though there is some disagreement about the willingness of that inclusion by some just like Mexico believes that parts of the border states actually belong to them. The US thinks differently.

Maggie - I don't think that Georgia wanted to be a part of the USSR during the period of its communist suppression.

Didn't Georgia only gain its independence in 1991, two years after the infamous Soviet massacre of Georgian anti-Soviet protesters on April 9, 1989?

Yes, The Soviet Union was trying to maintain its sovereignty and territorial integrity against much interference by others with vested interest in its disintergration. While the exact dates and names escape me at the moment there was a 4 star general very senior in the US military who 'retired' during this time. He turned up in Georgia as he is from a Georgian family. He took over the Georgian military and since that time Georgia has been for all intents and purposes an out post of the Pentagon.

I agree with your first sentence, except that the USSR's view of its territorial integrity included many formerly sovereign nations who did not want to be dominated and controlled by the Soviet Union.

I like the comment of (a seemingly disappointed) Vladimir Putin that this battle would result in Russian retaliation.

Well it has. War is disappointing and much more.

This is quite rich coming from the former head of the KGB, whose former dissident member, Alexander Valterovich Litvinenko, mysteriously died of polonium poisoning in London a couple of years ago.

Yes. The British security forces have much explaining to do. They also have not handed over as required under international law the wanted fugitive and criminal Berezovsky where he is required to stand trial in Russia. Litvinenko knew where a lot of bodies were buried and many of them are about dealings the British would rather keep secret. Hence the BP deal is off and Russia is dealing with others now

Sorry, Maggie, but if the KGB perpetrated the hit (on British soil, I might add), what do you think the result of a trial in Moscow would be? I can certainly guess. I confess that I don't know much at all about international law, so I can't respond to what it requires in this instance in which someone was murdered on British soil.

And what is a "Russian peacekeeper"?

The same as any other countries peace keepers. The Russians have done more for world peace than most.

Looking back 100 years, I have a hard time seeing what Russia and the USSR have done for world peace. What I see is the subjugation of militarily inferior nations and the genocidal elimination of millions of its citizens in the gulag (which, from a numerical standpoint appear to dwarf the number of Jews exterminated in the Holocaust).

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers.

When I think of Russia, I think about the millions and millions that died fighting fascism. I think of the free education that they offered to people from all over the world especially the third world. I think of the free operations and health care that they gave to my friend's daughter so that she would not be blind and the free accommodation and care given to her mother while she waited for her daughter to recover. I think of the refugees they took in from murderous right wing dictatorships.

Maggie- Why don't you also think about the Gulags and the invasion of Czeckoslovakia? Perhaps the USSR and Russia have offered (or do offer) quality health care. I am certainly happy to learn that that was the case with your friend.

When I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn I think of how the western politicians and media abandoned him in the Connecticut country side and ridiculed him when he turned his criticisms towards the west.

No doubt about that, but I am glad that he revealed the horrible truth about the Gulags.

China doesn't need the fallout of this dust-up to embarass it during the Olympics.

True

Its own human rights and censorship record (both of which must be a complete mystery to NBC) hang like heavy smog over the Olympics.

NBC is perfectly aware of the shortcomings of China. They just want to make lots of money and are prepared to over look human rights for profits. Just like most consumers are prepared to buy cheap Chinese gadgets and clothes.

I know that NBC is aware of the vast human rights violations in China, and I agree that it is just there for the $. I sometimes feel guilty about purchasing products that are made in a Chinese sweatshop (i.e. the clothes that I am wearing).

Maggie-

I appreciate your well-reasoned reply to my post.

My replies are in the text above.

Chris

Edited August 10, 2008 by Christopher Hall

[Paul Rigby]

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers

Then a) you're education is shamefully limited, as the Soviet period of Russian history lasted a mere 70+ years; and you've a very selective memory - not recall what he had to say about the US?

Georgia, with obvious US approval, attacked a province of the former USSR which made the same decision to divorce as Georgia did - only the South Ossitians chose to remain with Moscow. Your inability to comment on the obvious fact of Georgian aggression represents precisely the kind of divorce from observable reality that characterises the Bush White House.

Paul

Paul-

Why don't you tell us about your vast education, since you believe that mine is "shamefully limited"?

If you want to compare sheepskins, I will be happy to do so, but I think that would be a little silly.

Whatever your education is, you obviously missed the day that your professors taught manners and reasoned discourse.

You don't have to denigrate me to disagree with my positions.

I will debate issues with you in an adult manner anytime.

I also don't know what in my post led you to conclude that I thought the Soviet period began many centuries ago.

But the USSR period, quite obviously, comprises most of the modern history of Russia, and it is a history of oppression and subjugation of its various "states".

I don't see a lot of its former states or Soviet block countries wanting to go back to the days of the USSR and its brand of communism.

I'm delighted to see, Chris, that you don't have to denigrate me to debate the issues with me: "Whatever your education is, you obviously missed the day that your professors taught manners and reasoned discourse." Can we say "hypocrite"? I think we can.

Much more serious is all that irrelevant guff about the Soviet Union, Stalin and Solzhenitsyn. What precisely does any of this have to do with the fact that Georgian forces, armed, trained, financed and advised by both US and Israeli personnel, launched a murderous barrage on an overwhelmingly civilian population which the country's leader proclaims members of its own nation? As Thomas de Waal, no great lover of Putin, modern Russia etc, put it in today's Observer:

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili seems to care less about these people than about asserting that they live in Georgian territory. Otherwise he would not on the night of 7-8 August have launched a massive artillery assault on the town of Tskhinvali, which has no purely military targets and whose residents, the Georgians say, lest we forget, are their own citizens. This is a blatant breach of international humanitarian law.

In fact, this is all about oil, and has nothing whatever to do with freem, moxy, or any other of the voodoo incantations so beloved of the Anglo-American elites and their mouthpieces in the commentariat. Saakashvili has committed a war crime and should be brought to book as a matter of urgency. Your inability to recognise and admit this very obvious fact is both staggering and contemptible.

Let's hope the Kremlin shows a degree of restraint long since lost by the exterminators in Washington.

Paul

[Maggie Hansen]

American troops found amongst Georgian dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQufrBWdg

Eyewitness testimony from fleeing Ossetians stating that soldiers with USA markings found among the dead Georgian forces. The statement regarding the USA Troops occurs at 0:30 - 0:40

[Mark Stapleton]

In fact, this is all about oil, and has nothing whatever to do with freem, moxy, or any other of the voodoo incantations so beloved of the Anglo-American elites and their mouthpieces in the commentariat. Saakashvili has committed a war crime and should be brought to book as a matter of urgency. Your inability to recognise and admit this very obvious fact is both staggering and contemptible.

Let's hope the Kremlin shows a degree of restraint long since lost by the exterminators in Washington.

Paul

Well said, Paul. Thanks to you and Maggie for the posts. Perhaps the first 'oil pipeline' war is at hand.

Can we guess who is behind this outbreak of violence and unrest?

A clue for Chris---someone's stirring up trouble in the neighbourhood. Life size photos of George Bush lining the highways? Ah, come on.

[Christopher Hall]

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers

Then a) you're education is shamefully limited, as the Soviet period of Russian history lasted a mere 70+ years; and you've a very selective memory - not recall what he had to say about the US?

Georgia, with obvious US approval, attacked a province of the former USSR which made the same decision to divorce as Georgia did - only the South Ossitians chose to remain with Moscow. Your inability to comment on the obvious fact of Georgian aggression represents precisely the kind of divorce from observable reality that characterises the Bush White House.

Paul

Paul-

Why don't you tell us about your vast education, since you believe that mine is "shamefully limited"?

If you want to compare sheepskins, I will be happy to do so, but I think that would be a little silly.

Whatever your education is, you obviously missed the day that your professors taught manners and reasoned discourse.

You don't have to denigrate me to disagree with my positions.

I will debate issues with you in an adult manner anytime.

I also don't know what in my post led you to conclude that I thought the Soviet period began many centuries ago.

But the USSR period, quite obviously, comprises most of the modern history of Russia, and it is a history of oppression and subjugation of its various "states".

I don't see a lot of its former states or Soviet block countries wanting to go back to the days of the USSR and its brand of communism.

I'm delighted to see, Chris, that you don't have to denigrate me to debate the issues with me: "Whatever your education is, you obviously missed the day that your professors taught manners and reasoned discourse." Can we say "hypocrite"? I think we can. You are correct, Paul, in that I responded in kind to your personal insult about my education. I should have just ignored your insult.

Much more serious is all that irrelevant guff about the Soviet Union, Stalin and Solzhenitsyn. What precisely does any of this have to do with the fact that Georgian forces, armed, trained, financed and advised by both US and Israeli personnel, launched a murderous barrage on an overwhelmingly civilian population which the country's leader proclaims members of its own nation? Paul, this is a dispute among South Ossetia, Georgia, Russia and the US. You and I will not resolve the underlying dispute between South Ossetia and Georgia, but it is noteworthy that the UN and the EU regard South Ossetia as a part of Georgia. As Thomas de Waal, no great lover of Putin, modern Russia etc, put it in today's Observer:

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili seems to care less about these people than about asserting that they live in Georgian territory. Otherwise he would not on the night of 7-8 August have launched a massive artillery assault on the town of Tskhinvali, which has no purely military targets and whose residents, the Georgians say, lest we forget, are their own citizens. This is a blatant breach of international humanitarian law.

Paul, each side claims the other side initiated the fighting on August 1 or 2: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18871

In fact, this is all about oil, and has nothing whatever to do with freem, moxy, or any other of the voodoo incantations so beloved of the Anglo-American elites and their mouthpieces in the commentariat. It is certainly about oil to Russia. Saakashvili has committed a war crime and should be brought to book as a matter of urgency. Your inability to recognise and admit this very obvious fact is both staggering and contemptible.

Paul, you remain unwilling to communicate in an evenly remotely civil manner, so we are not going to communicate with each other any further on this Political Controversies forum. That is too bad, because I enjoy debating an issue, particualrly with someone who has a diametrically opposite worldview. But I don't hate the party with whom I am debating. Nor do I like being the object of scorn (saying my disagreement with you in a territorial/political dispute which has raged for years is "both staggering and contemptible") by someone who refuses to debate in a civil manner. I should have just declined to discuss anything further when your first response was that my education was "shamefully limited."

Let's hope the Kremlin shows a degree of restraint long since lost by the exterminators in Washington. This is Russia's response: http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5555394&page=1[/b]Paul

Edited August 11, 2008 by Christopher Hall

[Christopher Hall]

In fact, this is all about oil, and has nothing whatever to do with freem, moxy, or any other of the voodoo incantations so beloved of the Anglo-American elites and their mouthpieces in the commentariat. Saakashvili has committed a war crime and should be brought to book as a matter of urgency. Your inability to recognise and admit this very obvious fact is both staggering and contemptible.

Let's hope the Kremlin shows a degree of restraint long since lost by the exterminators in Washington.

Paul

Well said, Paul. Thanks to you and Maggie for the posts. Perhaps the first 'oil pipeline' war is at hand.

Can we guess who is behind this outbreak of violence and unrest?

A clue for Chris---someone's stirring up trouble in the neighbourhood. Life size photos of George Bush lining the highways? Ah, come on.

Mark-

I don't need clues or any more sarcasm.

Who do you think supplied the South Ossetians' weapons and supplies?

I could hazard a very specific guess, which would be that the South Ossetians are shooting Russian AK-47s (pretty nice rifles, I might add) and Russian Wolf 7.62 x 39 ammo (pretty lousy ammo, I might also add).

Like so many other wars and skirmishes since WWII, Russia/the Soviet Union has its surrogate and the US has its surrogate.

Chris

[Len Colby]

American troops found amongst Georgian dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQufrBWdg

Eyewitness testimony from fleeing Ossetians stating that soldiers with USA markings found among the dead Georgian forces. The statement regarding the USA Troops occurs at 0:30 - 0:40

Maggie

By any chance do you speak Ossetian? If not you are depending on a translation from a Russian government controlled TV station, perhaps not the most objective source.

But let’s assume the translation was accurate. The woman said they were GEORGIANS with

1) Black uniforms and

2) American insignias on their forearms

The Reuters photo showed American’s with Khaki/camouflage uniforms and American flags. So we know there were American troops in the area shortly before the fighting broke out but no evidence they had uniforms like those described by the woman. AFAIK no US forces use black uniforms.

I find it unlikely that if the US were covertly sending troops to the area they would send them in American uniforms. It also seems unlikely that such bodies wouldn’t found by the Russians or their Ossetian allies and then prominently displayed on TV. If the Russians had hard evidence of US troops fighting with the Georgians they would draw attention to it not simply let brief mention of it be made in an obscure news broadcast.

Most likely the woman was either mistaken or the dead Georgians acquired American patches during service in Iraq or joint traing exercises.

[Maggie Hansen]

American troops found amongst Georgian dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMQufrBWdg

Eyewitness testimony from fleeing Ossetians stating that soldiers with USA markings found among the dead Georgian forces. The statement regarding the USA Troops occurs at 0:30 - 0:40

Maggie

By any chance do you speak Ossetian? If not you are depending on a translation from a Russian government controlled TV station, perhaps not the most objective source.

But let’s assume the translation was accurate. The woman said they were GEORGIANS with

1) Black uniforms and

2) American insignias on their forearms

The Reuters photo showed American’s with Khaki/camouflage uniforms and American flags. So we know there were American troops in the area shortly before the fighting broke out but no evidence they had uniforms like those described by the woman. AFAIK no US forces use black uniforms.

I find it unlikely that if the US were covertly sending troops to the area they would send them in American uniforms. It also seems unlikely that such bodies wouldn’t found by the Russians or their Ossetian allies and then prominently displayed on TV. If the Russians had hard evidence of US troops fighting with the Georgians they would draw attention to it not simply let brief mention of it be made in an obscure news broadcast.

Most likely the woman was either mistaken or the dead Georgians acquired American patches during service in Iraq or joint traing exercises.

Well, she was there and we are not Len. By the way, no, I do not speak Ossetian but I do know Russian. She was speaking Russian though it is hard for any one to hear clearly with the voice over. Most all people from the former USSR republics do speak Russian as well as their own languages and dialects. It was used as a lingua franca. Kazakhstanis can speak to Ukrainians, Kyrguz can speak to Moldavians. They used Russian. It worked well. Similar to how English in India is used.

As for government controlled tv. I don't actually know if the Russian government own Russia Today or not. You will some government owned and some privately owned media outlets. Is the 'truth' any more real from a private station than a government station? We have one here and it is by far the best of the lot. For another time as this is off topic.

The early reports said that there were some 'black' bodies found amongst Georgian casualties. The implication was that they were negro. I did not post these though as it was unconfirmed and only from a couple of sources. Other reports are of people with black uniforms. This is much more reported. The uniforms are black and have US insignia.

As for your theory about it being Georgian's who had acquired patches during Iraq or the recent joint military training exercises that is theoretically possible but I find it highly unlikely. While I was in the Australian military there were very strict protocols about how one's uniform is to be presented. You just don't just go whacking on a badge because your yanqui friend gave you one of his. Evan will concur. Most military forces are highly nationalistic and very particular about their image. The US cannot send troops in their official uniforms as this would be an act of war under international law, not that seems to mean anything to them these days. But if the US has troops in the area these troops will need to be identifiable to the Georgians in order to work together coherently. I presume that they are mercenaries from the Blackwater, Dynocorp type pool of assassins. Maybe even Israeli supplied as they have 1000 'advisors' of their own there at the moment.

It may be an obscure broadcast in the US or Brasil but in Russia it is not. At the moment they have evidence that someone, not Georgian, not South Ossetian, not Russian but possibly US though not in official uniform but some other is amongst the dead. We will find out more in time.

[Evan Burton]

I'm going to read through the replies here, but if they have not already been posted I'd like to hear peope's opinion on this. I am still very much in two minds.

On one hand we have areas wanted to gain independence. Russia is supporting this. Is this not what we of the West have always upheld? Is this not what the US and other nations have done on many occasions?

On the other we have an area which has apparently traditionally been part of a state / nation and now wishes to secede because it has resources which enables such an action. Would we think it fair that Liverpool suddenly secede if it was discovered it had resources to support such a call?

What are the opinions?

[Maggie Hansen]

That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Wasn't Georgia a former captive state in the USSR for 40 or 50 years?

Georgia was protected by Imperial Russia since 1783. Georgia requested incorporation into Russia in 1800. Though there is some disagreement about the willingness of that inclusion by some just like Mexico believes that parts of the border states actually belong to them. The US thinks differently.

Wasn't the Iroquois/Cherokee/Sioux nation a captive of the USA for 500 years? And isn't it still?

Maggie - I don't think that Georgia wanted to be a part of the USSR during the period of its communist suppression.

Stalin was Georgian. He ruled for three decades. Georgia benefited greatly under Stalin and he is still revered in Georgia by many. Another thing is that what we know as Georgia today has the same boundaries as the Georgian republic of USSR times. It was a USSR creation. It includes parts that were not part of historical Georgia which is why they want to break away from Georgia now.

Didn't Georgia only gain its independence in 1991, two years after the infamous Soviet massacre of Georgian anti-Soviet protesters on April 9, 1989?

Yes, The Soviet Union was trying to maintain its sovereignty and territorial integrity against much interference by others with vested interest in its disintergration. While the exact dates and names escape me at the moment there was a 4 star general very senior in the US military who 'retired' during this time. He turned up in Georgia as he is from a Georgian family. He took over the Georgian military and since that time Georgia has been for all intents and purposes an out post of the Pentagon.

I agree with your first sentence, except that the USSR's view of its territorial integrity included many formerly sovereign nations who did not want to be dominated and controlled by the Soviet Union.

It may sound very strange to you as someone who has grown up in the USA a country who saw Russia and the USSR as an enemy and a bad place but some people liked to live in the USSR and wanted it to stay that way. It worked well for many even if it was not perfect. They have not chosen what has happened. Locally there are many places which have tried to maintain the collective farms and work places, still have their Soviet passports, still want and try to replicate the soviet system. Even if it is one that you would not choose for yourself.

I like the comment of (a seemingly disappointed) Vladimir Putin that this battle would result in Russian retaliation.

Well it has. War is disappointing and much more.

This is quite rich coming from the former head of the KGB, whose former dissident member, Alexander Valterovich Litvinenko, mysteriously died of polonium poisoning in London a couple of years ago.

Yes. The British security forces have much explaining to do. They also have not handed over as required under international law the wanted fugitive and criminal Berezovsky where he is required to stand trial in Russia. Litvinenko knew where a lot of bodies were buried and many of them are about dealings the British would rather keep secret. Hence the BP deal is off and Russia is dealing with others now

Sorry, Maggie, but if the KGB perpetrated the hit (on British soil, I might add), what do you think the result of a trial in Moscow would be? I can certainly guess. I confess that I don't know much at all about international law, so I can't respond to what it requires in this instance in which someone was murdered on British soil.

I don't know that the KGB did do it. It is very murky business. There is much to indicate that one of the British MI something did it. Berezovsky may have done it. Or arranged some one else to do it, perhaps a Russian. There are plenty of reasons the Berezovsky and the British wanted it to happen. I don't support the death penalty anywhere and would not want anyone to be sent somewhere where they may face execution but otherwise all counrties should be equally respected under international law. If Russia has a warrant on Berezovsky it should be complied with. The British should not obstruct justice.

And what is a "Russian peacekeeper"?

The same as any other countries peace keepers. The Russians have done more for world peace than most.

Looking back 100 years, I have a hard time seeing what Russia and the USSR have done for world peace.

Wasn't Krushchev the other party to the Cuban missile crisis. Wasn't he the other party to the solution to the Cuban missile crisis? Just for starters.

What I see is the subjugation of militarily inferior nations and the genocidal elimination of millions of its citizens in the gulag (which, from a numerical standpoint appear to dwarf the number of Jews exterminated in the Holocaust).

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers.

When I think of Russia, I think about the millions and millions that died fighting fascism. I think of the free education that they offered to people from all over the world especially the third world. I think of the free operations and health care that they gave to my friend's daughter so that she would not be blind and the free accommodation and care given to her mother while she waited for her daughter to recover. I think of the refugees they took in from murderous right wing dictatorships.

Maggie- Why don't you also think about the Gulags and the invasion of Czeckoslovakia? Perhaps the USSR and Russia have offered (or do offer) quality health care. I am certainly happy to learn that that was the case with your friend.

How could I forget. I was bombarded with this growing up in the west. I know about these things but it is not by any means the first thing I think about when I think of Russia/USSR. Yes, there were abuses and corruption and crimes committed. But these are also way over played by the West while they hide their own abuses. While the great and astounding achievements are never recognized. I have known and know many people from this part of the world. They tell me different stories and have different histories from the one's I read in newspapers. However, when I think of America I think of unelected presidents, Guantanamo Bay, napalm, finger printing tourists, lying to go to war for profit, Hiroshima, Indian massacres, carpet bombing, and much more. But I also know there is more to America than that. I also hope that there will be an American Solzhenitsyn to write about life in the Haliburton concentration camps there as they are likely to be full in the not too distant future. The world will need to know that truth too.

When I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn I think of how the western politicians and media abandoned him in the Connecticut country side and ridiculed him when he turned his criticisms towards the west.

No doubt about that, but I am glad that he revealed the horrible truth about the Gulags.

Yes. Then they switched his microphone off when he talked about the West

China doesn't need the fallout of this dust-up to embarass it during the Olympics.

True

Its own human rights and censorship record (both of which must be a complete mystery to NBC) hang like heavy smog over the Olympics.

NBC is perfectly aware of the shortcomings of China. They just want to make lots of money and are prepared to over look human rights for profits. Just like most consumers are prepared to buy cheap Chinese gadgets and clothes.

I know that NBC is aware of the vast human rights violations in China, and I agree that it is just there for the $. I sometimes feel guilty about purchasing products that are made in a Chinese sweatshop (i.e. the clothes that I am wearing).

Don't buy them. Buy second hand so your money does not go there. Make your own. Pay a local tailor/sewer/knitter to make them. Buy from manufacturers that pay fair prices for labor and allow their workers to be in unions. Contact your local textile union. They will have a list of places where these types of clothes are sold near you. They are labelled as such. We have that in Australia. It feels good to wear clothes that you know were made by some one who can live a decent life on their wages. Don't be a link in the chain of oppression. I'll help you find some locally if you like.

Maggie-

I appreciate your well-reasoned reply to my post.

My replies are in the text above.

Chris

Edited August 12, 2008 by Maggie Hansen

[Christopher Hall]

That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

This report shows that each side accuses the other of starting hostilities in early August: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18871

Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

While I am no great fan of the UN, if you regard the UN's imprimatur on a matter as being dispositive, the UN, along with the EU, regard South Ossetia as a part of Georgia.

Wasn't Georgia a former captive state in the USSR for 40 or 50 years?

Georgia was protected by Imperial Russia since 1783. Georgia requested incorporation into Russia in 1800. Though there is some disagreement about the willingness of that inclusion by some just like Mexico believes that parts of the border states actually belong to them. The US thinks differently.

Maggie- Russia invaded Georgia in 1921 and installed a Bolshevik governemtn. When Georgia tried to assert its independence in 1924, Russia crushed its uprising. After 90 years as a captive Soviet state, Georgia gained its independence in 1991, less than 20 years ago. We don't need to discuss what happened in the 1700s and 1800s. Similarly, if Mexico wants to re-fight the war it lost in 1846, it can do so. But the UN and the rest of the countries (apparently other than some Mexicans) respect the integrity of the US's southern border (even though we seldom enforce the integrity of such border).

Wasn't the Iroquois/Cherokee/Sioux nation a captive of the USA for 500 years? And isn't it still? Not according to the UN or any other nation state. The US isn't alone is sitting on land once owned by Indians or, for that matter, land owned by someone else. If you want to start a thread on Indians in the US, you may get less resistance from me than you may think.

Maggie - I don't think that Georgia wanted to be a part of the USSR during the period of its communist suppression.

Stalin was Georgian. He ruled for three decades. Georgia benefited greatly under Stalin and he is still revered in Georgia by many. Another thing is that what we know as Georgia today has the same boundaries as the Georgian republic of USSR times. It was a USSR creation. It includes parts that were not part of historical Georgia which is why they want to break away from Georgia now.

Yes, I know. It is rather ironic that Russia is now fomenting the dissolution of a country that it created. I find it sad that people still revere Stalin. There are some people in Germany (and elsewhere, including the US) who similarly revere Hitler.

Didn't Georgia only gain its independence in 1991, two years after the infamous Soviet massacre of Georgian anti-Soviet protesters on April 9, 1989?

Yes, The Soviet Union was trying to maintain its sovereignty and territorial integrity against much interference by others with vested interest in its disintergration. While the exact dates and names escape me at the moment there was a 4 star general very senior in the US military who 'retired' during this time. He turned up in Georgia as he is from a Georgian family. He took over the Georgian military and since that time Georgia has been for all intents and purposes an out post of the Pentagon.

I agree with your first sentence, except that the USSR's view of its territorial integrity included many formerly sovereign nations who did not want to be dominated and controlled by the Soviet Union.

It may sound very strange to you as someone who has grown up in the USA a country who saw Russia and the USSR as an enemy and a bad place but some people liked to live in the USSR and wanted it to stay that way. It worked well for many even if it was not perfect. They have not chosen what has happened. Locally there are many places which have tried to maintain the collective farms and work places, still have their Soviet passports, still want and try to replicate the soviet system. Even if it is one that you would not choose for yourself.

These must be a precious few people, since that style of government was effectively rejected with Yeltsin's election in 1991.

I like the comment of (a seemingly disappointed) Vladimir Putin that this battle would result in Russian retaliation.

Well it has. War is disappointing and much more.

This is quite rich coming from the former head of the KGB, whose former dissident member, Alexander Valterovich Litvinenko, mysteriously died of polonium poisoning in London a couple of years ago.

Yes. The British security forces have much explaining to do. They also have not handed over as required under international law the wanted fugitive and criminal Berezovsky where he is required to stand trial in Russia. Litvinenko knew where a lot of bodies were buried and many of them are about dealings the British would rather keep secret. Hence the BP deal is off and Russia is dealing with others now

Sorry, Maggie, but if the KGB perpetrated the hit (on British soil, I might add), what do you think the result of a trial in Moscow would be? I can certainly guess. I confess that I don't know much at all about international law, so I can't respond to what it requires in this instance in which someone was murdered on British soil.

I don't know that the KGB did do it. It is very murky business. There is much to indicate that one of the British MI something did it. Berezovsky may have done it. Or arranged some one else to do it, perhaps a Russian. There are plenty of reasons the Berezovsky and the British wanted it to happen. I don't support the death penalty anywhere and would not want anyone to be sent somewhere where they may face execution but otherwise all counrties should be equally respected under international law. If Russia has a warrant on Berezovsky it should be complied with. The British should not obstruct justice.

To what international law are you refering? Also, I thought that Andrei Lugovoi was the primary suspect and that Russia refused to extradite him to Great Britain because it said that such extradition is prohibited under the Russian Constitution. Is Russia now complaining that international law requires nations to extradite defendants back to Russia, but that it is constitutionally prohibited from reciprocating?

And what is a "Russian peacekeeper"?

The same as any other countries peace keepers. The Russians have done more for world peace than most.

Looking back 100 years, I have a hard time seeing what Russia and the USSR have done for world peace.

Wasn't Krushchev the other party to the Cuban missile crisis. Wasn't he the other party to the solution to the Cuban missile crisis? Just for starters.

So Krushchev puts Soviet troops and missiles in Cuba and then should be credited as a peacemaker for subsequently agreeing to remove them? I view him as the reason for the Cuban missile crisis, not a part of the solution.

What I see is the subjugation of militarily inferior nations and the genocidal elimination of millions of its citizens in the gulag (which, from a numerical standpoint appear to dwarf the number of Jews exterminated in the Holocaust).

When I think of Russia, I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn and gulags, not peacekeepers.

When I think of Russia, I think about the millions and millions that died fighting fascism. I think of the free education that they offered to people from all over the world especially the third world. I think of the free operations and health care that they gave to my friend's daughter so that she would not be blind and the free accommodation and care given to her mother while she waited for her daughter to recover. I think of the refugees they took in from murderous right wing dictatorships.

Maggie- Why don't you also think about the Gulags and the invasion of Czeckoslovakia? Perhaps the USSR and Russia have offered (or do offer) quality health care. I am certainly happy to learn that that was the case with your friend.

How could I forget. I was bombarded with this growing up in the west. I know about these things but it is not by any means the first thing I think about when I think of Russia/USSR. Yes, there were abuses and corruption and crimes committed. But these are also way over played by the West while they hide their own abuses. While the great and astounding achievements are never recognized. I have known and know many people from this part of the world. They tell me different stories and have different histories from the one's I read in newspapers. However, when I think of America I think of unelected presidents, Guantanamo Bay, napalm, finger printing tourists, lying to go to war for profit, Hiroshima, Indian massacres, carpet bombing, and much more. But I also know there is more to America than that. I also hope that there will be an American Solzhenitsyn to write about life in the Haliburton concentration camps there as they are likely to be full in the not too distant future. The world will need to know that truth too.

When I think of Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn I think of how the western politicians and media abandoned him in the Connecticut country side and ridiculed him when he turned his criticisms towards the west.

No doubt about that, but I am glad that he revealed the horrible truth about the Gulags.

Yes. Then they switched his microphone off when he talked about the West

Perhaps, but he was certainly not imprisoned by the US.

China doesn't need the fallout of this dust-up to embarass it during the Olympics.

True

Its own human rights and censorship record (both of which must be a complete mystery to NBC) hang like heavy smog over the Olympics.

NBC is perfectly aware of the shortcomings of China. They just want to make lots of money and are prepared to over look human rights for profits. Just like most consumers are prepared to buy cheap Chinese gadgets and clothes.

I know that NBC is aware of the vast human rights violations in China, and I agree that it is just there for the $. I sometimes feel guilty about purchasing products that are made in a Chinese sweatshop (i.e. the clothes that I am wearing).

Don't buy them. Buy second hand so your money does not go there. Make your own. Pay a local tailor/sewer/knitter to make them. Buy from manufacturers that pay fair prices for labor and allow their workers to be in unions. Contact your local textile union. They will have a list of places where these types of clothes are sold near you. They are labelled as such. We have that in Australia. It feels good to wear clothes that you know were made by some one who can live a decent life on their wages. Don't be a link in the chain of oppression. I'll help you find some locally if you like.

Thanks. I may PM you about it someday. Actually, until a few years ago Levi's jeans were made in Knoxville, Tn, where I live.

Maggie-

I appreciate your well-reasoned reply to my post.

My replies are in the text above.

Chris

Maggie-

My replies are in the text above.

I have limited them to matters pertaining to Georgia, Russia, the former USSR and the US over the course of the last 100 years, which I regard as modern history.

Chris

Edited August 12, 2008 by Christopher Hall

[Len Colby]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Len Colby

[Maggie Hansen]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

[Christopher Hall]

C:That's funny, to me it looks like a last, desperate, throw of Russian military-imperialism.

M: Chris, it was the Georgians who attacked and civilians at that. They have been trying to provoke hostilities for some time in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Please see this post: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13230

C: Maggie- I have read reports which state just the opposite - that the violence was initiated by the Ossetians and supported by the Russians.

M: Well not according to the UN and other neutral parties

Maggie which "neutral parties" besides the UN said this? Do you have a link to the UN report? I saw it mentioned in an article from a website I never heard of before but there was no link to actual report.

The Georgians themselves will say so. It has always been their intention to reassert control over these areas. But I don't suppose that is 'neutral'.

Maggie- Did you read the link that I posted on 2 separate occasions? Each side blames the other for the August 1 and 2 skirmishes according to that article. I don't think that we will ever know who started the fighting this month or, for that matter, that either side has entirely clean hands.

I have enjoyed chatting with you on this matter and I will give you the final word(s). Chris