WCD 1035 and the Men running from the TSBD

[Duke Lane]

If I recall, didn't Worrell claim he saw "fire" coming from the muzzle of the rifle? How likely is that!

My studied opinion is that it is entirely unlikely that Worrell saw "fire" coming from the muzzle of a rifle. It doesn't matter if "fire" did come from the muzzle of a rifle fired from the TSBD, or if it didn't: the simple fact is that Worrell wasn't there to see it either way.

[Robert Howard]

It seems that strange things happening in Dealey Plaza were not just limited to the day of President Kennedy's assassination, the Warren Commission documents reveal that during the week leading up to the assassination there was a report of men with a gun, and three witnesses as well.

Frances Hernandez, 1917 Annex, advised she, Josephine Salinas and Henrietta Vargas, all employee’s McKell Sportswear, 2nd Floor, Dal-Tex Bldg., 501 Elm, Dallas, while on their way home from work about 5:10 P.M. on November 19, 1963, observed two men with an automobile, about a 1956 Buick, color light-blue. The older of the two men was observed to have handed a rifle to the younger of the two men, who then walked from Buick to a white car, which was a compact car, but she did not know the make of it. She stated the younger man might have been Lee Harvey Oswald, but she is not able to say definitely it was Oswald. She stated she has no other information.

On December 31, 1963, Mr. Ed Crews, Chief Deputy, Dallas County Sheriffs office, advised that he did not know any of the Sheriff’s Department employees owning a 1955 or 1956 blue Buick automobile and after checking with several of his employees, he was unable to tell if any of his employees owned such an

automobile.

The following investigation was conducted by SA William G. Brookhart:

On December 31, 1963 Mrs. Frances Hernandez, residence 1917 Annex, Dallas, Texas was reinterviewed in her place of employment McKell Sportswear, 2nd Floor, Dal-Tex Bldg., 501 Elm Street. Mrs. Vargas advised that she recalls that it was raining the day before Pres. John Fitzgerald Kennedy was to come to Dallas, Texas, and that she and two of her fellow workers Mrs. Henrietta Vargas and Mrs. Josephine Salinas, were leaving their parking lot, west of the TSBD building. They had to stop because a 1955 or 1956 Buick was in the exit way and she noticed two men standing beside the Buick, and the older man reached into the trunk of the car and handed a rifle to the younger man.

She said she particularly noticed this activity since it reminded her of a man who worked at McKell Sportswear who had gone deer hunting and she thought these two men were going to do the same thing. She only saw the back of the older man’s head and can only saw that the younger man was rather slim.

She cannot describe either of these two men as being identical with either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby and thought of the above incident only after the President was assassinated.

She said her and her friends were frightened and reluctant to become involved and were very excited and confused for some time, but now that she has had time to think about this, she is certain of the above facts.

Mrs. Vargas advised that she and two of her fellow workers Mrs. Frances Hernandez and Mrs. Josephine Salinas were leaving their parking lot behind the TSBD

building when they observed two men standing beside a light colored automobile, make unknown. She said that she could not recall stated that she could not recall whether this was the Tuesday or the Thursday before President John F. Kennedy came to Dallas and was assassinated, but she does recall that it was raining at the time. Mrs. Vargas said that she noticed that the older man took a rifle out of the trunk and gave it to the younger man, who walked toward the railroad tracks west of the TSBD building. She did not see the face of the younger man and cannot describe him, and she does not recall him getting into the automobile. She did not see the face of the older man only the back of his head, and she had no idea who he was. She said she could not identify either man as Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby, since she did not see their faces.

She recalls the older man was of medium height and the younger man appeared to be rather slim.

Mrs. Josephine Salinas

On December 31, 1963, Mrs. Josephine Salinas, residence 13740 Birch Lane, Dallas, Texas was interviewed at her place of employment, McKell Sportswear Company. Mrs. Salinas advised that the day before President Kennedy was killed she and two of her fellow workers, Mrs. Henrietta Vargas and Mrs. Frances Hernandez, were leaving the parking lot west of the TSBD. She recalls it was raining and wondered whether the President would be able to be seen in the parade scheduled for the next day, and noticed that there were two men standing in the rear of a 1955 or 1956, Buick which was blocking the exit road. The older man took a rifle out of the trunk of the car and gave it to the younger man. She did not see the face of the older man since she could only observe him from his back and could not describe him further. The younger man who was of slender build walked away from the Buick carrying the rifle, but she did not see where he went, or whether he got into a automobile.

Mrs. Salinas advised she cannot describe either of these two men she described as being identical to Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby

Robert: Determining the day that this took place, is of importance, if for no other reason than an accurate chronology of events. When Mrs. Hernandez was reinterviewed, she did not mention the day the two men were observed, only that it was raining, Mrs. Salinas advised that the two men were observed the day before the assassination. It seems factually accurate to say that it rained in Dallas the morning of the assassination, but it would be important to know whether or not it rained on those two day’s at 5:10 P.M., for the sake of accuracy. That the morning rain was a part of the historical record of the day of the assassination has been clearly established, one only has to read Jim Bishop or William Manchester’s books regarding the weather on the morning of the assassination, but I am not sure if there is any mention of the previous day, specifically regarding Downtown Dallas. But the weather, isn’t the primary focus, suffice to say, the event in question, according to the above FBI Reports would seem to have taken place either Tuesday, Nov. 19, or Thursday, Nov. 21 at 5:10 P.M. None of the three women appear to have been in Dealey Plaza, when President Kennedy was assassinated, as their names do not appear in Stewart Galanor’s Dealey Plaza database, nor does it appear as if their names come up in any other section of the Warren Report. Even so, one would think this would have been a very important lead in the original investigation, but the account in this Warren Commission document is evidence that should have been followed up on, at least attempting to locate the owner of the 1955 or 1956, light blue Buick, which, there is not, to my knowledge, any record that they did, or, did not do so.

Another aspect of these three FBI Reports is that the parking lot to the West of the TSBD, was the parking area for the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, so going on the information in the above Reports, these two men would have seemed to have been either ignorant or indifferent regarding that fact, if they were indifferent, I might add that would take some incredible chutzpah, it is also difficult not to get the impression that there possible "steering" of the interviews of these three women to the possibility these men were Oswald and Ruby, either that or all three women just happened to mention the two, as an afterthought.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=341049 CD 205

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=108 CD 206

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=111

Edited February 16, 2009 by Robert Howard

[Jim Glover]

I thought the witness who said he was 50 to 100 yrds from the motorcade was talking about how far it had passed him (meaning the front of the motorcade as it passed him going west on Elm) not how far he was from the line of the motorcade which if he was near the corner of Houston and Elm I don’t see why a witness would be so far off. Also the Altgens photo was taken right after Kennedy was hit (before the head shot) and there is no proof how many shots (audible or not there could have been shots from silencers that could not be heard at that corner) were fired. Many witnesses heard more than 3 shots so depending on where you were, the motorcycles would coverup many faint shots and even Clint Hill remembers hearing only two shots he thinks because of the motorcycles while the driver said there was a flurry of shots but Clint also said the headshot sounded like two super fast shots even though that would trash the magic bullet theory he keeps in good standing by saying he still believes Oswald did it alone. Someone close to the knoll or fence could hear shots better and the puff of smoke was caused by something other than someone smokin a joint behind the fence.

Most witnesses to the sounds of shots heard, of those who said they heard only 3 shots, most all said it was a relative long time between the first shot but the 2nd and 3rd were rapid fire... impossible from the rifle that is claimed to be Oswald’s and if Oswald ordered it under the name “Hidell" he would not be carrying Hidell ID with him and there is no reason for anyone in Texas to do that when they could buy any rifle without any Questions back then.

This is all confusing for no apparent reason when there are bullet marks on the windshield in that Altgens Photo and S.S. Agent Clint Hill has recently stated that when he jumped in the limo to protect Jackie and JFK he was looking at a large hole in the upper back of JFK's head. This is what the doctors at Parkland also saw. The autopsy photos are all very dark and leave off real views of the head wound which does not make sense for an honest autopsy. also the photo showing no big hole in the back of JFK’s head shows a huge open Hole on the right side that looks like the brain has already been removed while in other autopsy photos the back of the head is not shown but the wound on the side looks nothing like the one that shows no clear hole in the back... So it is self evident to me that the Huge hole on the right side is what the FBI said was evidence of surgery to the head.

Just sayin this thread is just confusing about proof of anything and this coup was designed to be confusing and the evidence and photos and movies do not correlate at all to each other which to me proves cover-up. I think the point here is that as Bernice has pointed out there were many ways in and out of the book building which no one person could see at the same time and there was a Garage Doorway on Houston St. at the Dal/tex building where many cars could have come from. Also I did not know there was a side entrance to the Book building.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Jim Glover

[Jim Glover]

Robert, I am curious about the supposed photo of Allen Dulles in the crowd in Dallas.

Is there a link to that somewhere?

[Robert Howard]

At the moment my memory of what particular URL link where that photo turned up is sketchy, but the gist of it was the photo turned up in a Communist magazine, a Warsaw pact country which escapes me. Ironically, a reproduction of the photo is in Stephen King's JFK time travel, myopic, 11-22-63, page before beginning page. A person who looks like Allen Dulles is in full profile practically in front of the motorcade, there is also a image of a figure resembling Jack Ruby somewhere in there.....

I won't win any friends for saying this, but if a photoshop type process was not used for the image, I would be surprised, as a point of debate, if you were Allen Dulles and were in on the assassination, would you be insane enough to make sure you were in a photo along the motorcade in Dallas?

I suppose some people would make reference to the "Edward Lansdale tramps" photo, but I just wanted to make my point, I am certainly no photographic expert, and, [ha ha] am rather glad I am not.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Robert Howard