Robert Howard Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) WCD 1035 and the Men Running From the TSBD Mrs. Nell D. Crane, 1865 Benecia Street, Los Angeles California, interviewed at 10469 Kinnard Avenue, and in the presence of Mr. and Mrs Einar W. Giaver, furnished the following information. On November 23, 1963, the day following the assassination of President Kennedy, she was watching television, either Los Angeles Channel 2 or 4, and observed that immediately after the President was shot that the camera switched to the School Book Depository and she saw two men run out from the rear of the building, with one man, the one in front, throwing a jacket or coat into the bushes as he ran. The men ran away from the rear of the building, disappearing down an alley or a street. She believed that the following film showed the front of the building and then up to the empty window on the sixth floor, where the shots were reportedly fired from. On the afternoon of the same date, at about 1 PM, she visited Mrs Giaver and pointed out to her pictures of the two men running. She has not seen the same picture since that time. Miss Doris Lee Crane, 1865 Benecia Street, Los Angeles California, furnished the following information. On the Monday evening following the assassination of President Kennedy, she, with her mother, Mrs. Nell D. Crane, had dinner at the residence of Mr. and Mrs. Einar W. Giaver, 10469 Kinnard Avenue, Los Angeles. At about 8:30, while watching television with the Giaver’s, and her mother, her mother commented “Look closely and you will see two men running.” This remark was made just as the television picture was showing the shooting of the President, but she did not know what Los Angeles television station channel they were watching. She recalled that immediately following the shooting of the President, the picture shifted to the School Book Depository Building, and she observed two men apparently running from the rear of this building, around a tree and out of sight. The man in front, believed to be a short white man, threw his coat or jacket away as he was ran. The taller man, dark complexioned, but believed to be a white man, appeared to be chasing the shorter man. She did not see any weapons displayed, and has never seen this same scene depicted in any of the later television coverage of the assassination. No inquiry was made at Los Angeles of film at the television station. Channel 2 in Los Angeles is affiliated with the Columbia Broadcasting System; Channel 4 in Los Angeles is affiliated with the National Broadcasting Company. All films and coverage of the events of November 22, 23, 24 and 25th were on a national hookup basis. On April 24, 1964, Mr. Gene Juster, Film Library, National Broadcasting Company, (NBC) Television Channel 4, advised he could not locate any film showing two men running from behind the Texas School Book Depository Building, down an alley. On May 5, 1964, Mr. Neil Waldman, Film Library, Columbia Broadcasting System, (CBS) Television Channel 2, 420 Lexington Avenue, New York City, advised that he had a film which contained a short scene of two men in a wooded area, believed to have been taken in the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Mr. Waldman advised that this film was recieved from Television Station KRLD, a CBS affiliate in Dallas, Texas. This film was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Headquarters at Washington D.C. on May 11, 1964. On April 9, 1964, SA John M Cashel was advised by Howard Strum, KNBC Director of National Affairs, Ch. 4 Los Angeles, California that all film footage of the Kennedy Assassination taken by NBC is maintained by NBC News in New York City, in New York. Any news run locally during the weekend following the assassination came off the New York line. On April 9, 1964, Ray Heatley of KNXT News Bureau (CBS) 6121 Sunset, Los Angeles, California, advised that all network broadcasts during the period following the assassination until after the burial came from New York or the point where the news originated. The network has complete news tapes of the assassination which are available in New York. On May 15, 1964, a 16mm film was recieved at Los Angeles, which had been secured from CBS News in New York. It was felt that this film might be the one referenced to my Mrs. Giaver, Mrs. Crane and Miss Crane since a short portion of this film shows two men running in a shaded area near the Texas School Book Depository. On May 18, 1964, Mrs. E. W. Giaver and Mrs. Dell W. Crane came to the Los Angeles office of the FBI and reviewed this film. Mrs. Giaver and Mrs. Crane said this was definitely not the film that they had referred to when interviewed. They both recalled that the two men they had observed on television during the newscast on the week end of the assassination were running next to and possibly away from the Texas School Book Depository. They both recalled that the man in front removed his coat or jacket while running. Regarding the copy of CBS TV 16 mm movie film, depicting a scene on November 22, 1963, of two men dressed in suits, running toward a brick building with shruberry to their left, it was physically described by SA’s Robert M. Barrett and Ivan D. Lee this film was taken in the 200 block of South Marsalis Street looking west. The building shown in the film is the east side of the Oak Cliff branch of the Dallas Public Library which fronts on the 500 block of East Jefferson Street, Dallas. The signboards on the left side of the scenes in the film are those of the Middleboard Signboard Company and face south. It was physically observed that the distance from this library building to the place in the 400 block of East 10th Street, (where Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippitt was shot and killed on November 22, 1963) is 0.2 of a mile via the most direct traffic route. It was also physically observed that the distance from the library to the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas is 2.8 miles by the most direct traffic route. The remaining footage of this film depicts scenes of and around the Texas School Book Depository building taken immediately after the shooting of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=234 Beginning http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=241 End Edited January 27, 2009 by Robert Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 WCD 1035 and the Men Running From the TSBD Mrs. Nell D. Crane, 1865 Benecia Street, Los Angeles California, interviewed at 10469 Kinnard Avenue, and in the presence of Mr. and Mrs Einar W. Giaver, furnished the following information. On November 23, 1963, the day following the assassination of President Kennedy, she was watching television, either Los Angeles Channel 2 or 4, and observed that immediately after the President was shot that the camera switched to the School Book Depository and she saw two men run out from the rear of the building, with one man, the one in front, throwing a jacket or coat into the bushes as he ran. The men ran away from the rear of the building, disappearing down an alley or a street. She believed that the following film showed the front of the building and then up to the empty window on the sixth floor, where the shots were reportedly fired from. On the afternoon of the same date, at about 1 PM, she visited Mrs Giaver and pointed out to her pictures of the two men running. She has not seen the same picture since that time. Miss Doris Lee Crane, 1865 Benecia Street, Los Angeles California, furnished the following information. On the Monday evening following the assassination of President Kennedy, she, with her mother, Mrs. Nell D. Crane, had dinner at the residence of Mr. and Mrs. Einar W. Giaver, 10469 Kinnard Avenue, Los Angeles. At about 8:30, while watching television with the Giaver’s, and her mother, her mother commented “Look closely and you will see two men running.” This remark was made just as the television picture was showing the shooting of the President, but she did not know what Los Angeles television station channel they were watching. She recalled that immediately following the shooting of the President, the picture shifted to the School Book Depository Building, and she observed two men apparently running from the rear of this building, around a tree and out of sight. The man in front, believed to be a short white man, threw his coat or jacket away as he was ran. The taller man, dark complexioned, but believed to be a white man, appeared to be chasing the shorter man. She did not see any weapons displayed, and has never seen this same scene depicted in any of the later television coverage of the assassination. No inquiry was made at Los Angeles of film at the television station. Channel 2 in Los Angeles is affiliated with the Columbia Broadcasting System; Channel 4 in Los Angeles is affiliated with the National Broadcasting Company. All films and coverage of the events of November 22, 23, 24 and 25th were on a national hookup basis. On April 24, 1964, Mr. Gene Juster, Film Library, National Broadcasting Company, (NBC) Television Channel 4, advised he could not locate any film showing two men running from behind the Texas School Book Depository Building, down an alley. On May 5, 1964, Mr. Neil Waldman, Film Library, Columbia Broadcasting System, (CBS) Television Channel 2, 420 Lexington Avenue, New York City, advised that he had a film which contained a short scene of two men in a wooded area, believed to have been taken in the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building. Mr. Waldman advised that this film was recieved from Television Station KRLD, a CBS affiliate in Dallas, Texas. This film was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Headquarters at Washington D.C. on May 11, 1964. On April 9, 1964, SA John M Cashel was advised by Howard Strum, KNBC Director of National Affairs, Ch. 4 Los Angeles, California that all film footage of the Kennedy Assassination taken by NBC is maintained by NBC News in New York City, in New York. Any news run locally during the weekend following the assassination came off the New York line. On April 9, 1964, Ray Heatley of KNXT News Bureau (CBS) 6121 Sunset, Los Angeles, California, advised that all network broadcasts during the period following the assassination until after the burial came from New York or the point where the news originated. The network has complete news tapes of the assassination which are available in New York. On May 15, 1964, a 16mm film was recieved at Los Angeles, which had been secured from CBS News in New York. It was felt that this film might be the one referenced to my Mrs. Giaver, Mrs. Crane and Miss Crane since a short portion of this film shows two men running in a shaded area near the Texas School Book Depository. On May 18, 1964, Mrs. E. W. Giaver and Mrs. Dell W. Crane came to the Los Angeles office of the FBI and reviewed this film. Mrs. Giaver and Mrs. Crane said this was definitely not the film that they had referred to when interviewed. They both recalled that the two men they had observed on television during the newscast on the week end of the assassination were running next to and possibly away from the Texas School Book Depository. They both recalled that the man in front removed his coat or jacket while running. Regarding the copy of CBS TV 16 mm movie film, depicting a scene on November 22, 1963, of two men dressed in suits, running toward a brick building with shruberry to their left, it was physically described by SA’s Robert M. Barrett and Ivan D. Lee this film was taken in the 200 block of South Marsalis Street looking west. The building shown in the film is the east side of the Oak Cliff branch of the Dallas Public Library which fronts on the 500 block of East Jefferson Street, Dallas. The signboards on the left side of the scenes in the film are those of the Middleboard Signboard Company and face south. It was physically observed that the distance from this library building to the place in the 400 block of East 10th Street, (where Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippitt was shot and killed on November 22, 1963) is 0.2 of a mile via the most direct traffic route. It was also physically observed that the distance from the library to the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas is 2.8 miles by the most direct traffic route. The remaining footage of this film depicts scenes of and around the Texas School Book Depository building taken immediately after the shooting of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=234 Beginning http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=241 End I wanted to make a few important points about this post. First, I believe it is one of the most important Warren Commission era documents I have ever seen. My reasoning for saying that is due to the fact that Mrs. Einar Giaver is quoted as saying after telling the Crane’s to look closely and you will see two men running, the writer of this report phrases the sentence following by stating “This remark was made just as the television picture was showing the shooting of the President.” This quote implies, if not outright states, that the television was showing the shooting of the President.” If that is correct then that is beyond “significant.” As it ostensibly would mean “that CBS has or had, a video of President Kennedy being assassinated on a network feed.” Secondly, and as much of a mystery to me as anyone else, the fact that the statement that there were two men running from behind the Texas School Book Depository building......around a tree and out of sight, is, simply, a lot to digest. Most Forum members are more than aware of the “other man” who is often mentioned as running down the slope of the area in front of the TSBD, and getting in a car that then drove off, which was seen by Roger Craig. But the description in this document is of two men, of which neither one gets into a car, with the one in front throwing down a coat or jacket. It would seem if the events described really happened, there is the obvious question. Why has no one else in all of the hundred’s of eyewitness in Dealey Plaza ever made mention of it? And I will be the first to admit, I am as befuddled regarding this as anyone else is. But, it must be noted, that the statements of Mrs. Einar, are supported not only by her daughter, but also by Neil Waldman, with the disclaimer that the footage he referenced was cited by Mrs. Einar as “not” being the footage she saw, yet his description of the film he was referencing is identical to what she herself had described. CBS is on record in the ARRB Final Report as having “assassination related video.” See ARRB Final Report Chapter 7 Pursuit of Records and Information from Non-Federal Sources B. Pursuit of Audio-Visual Material from Private Citizens and Organizations/3. CBS Outakes See http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...t_7_Pursuit.pdf And, at the very least this should be dealt with in any future attempts to respond to what some members are still “unresolved issues” regarding the Kennedy assassination, of which the Joannides lawsuit, is not the only area in need of closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Very, very interesting. Just a thought...stations sometimes have several cameras and someone in studio or at a studio-truck located on the scene cuts between cameras to decide what is being broadcast. It is possible, I think, for one local station to be showing something that others are not watching [they are watching another camera]. While there are many puzzles in this - you having pointed-out the most obvious (why others haven't claimed to have seen the same), there are also many partial confirmations that this was not their joint hallucination [pardon the pun]. The mention of 'while the President was being shot' and it sounding like the cameras were capturing that is intriguing! Even if that part is not so and the wording or mis-wording was about crowd reaction to the shooting being seen, it does go a long way to FURTHER proving there was no lone gunman and that real and significant evidence that made its way to the FBI and other official bodies were made to disappear - rather than be used as REAL evidence in the case. I would think the best thing to try to do, if not too late, is to try to find the film editors of the day and ask them if they remembers such. They must have gone over footage several times in the hours and days afterwards. Even if they recalled something like that being removed would be significant. Lastly, it does ring a bell of others saying that they saw men running out the back of the TSBD, though they saw it in person, not on TV. Yes, the Kennedy era straddled the implementation of mobile live news. I think KLIF had the first mobile radio vehicle. Prior the way was to patch in or phone in or take recordings and get it 'home' as quickly as possible. This is partly an issue covered by Lee and mused over by self in the past. For example, a radio broadcast in one place could be turned 'live' by ringing someone in the area of interest, getting them to tune into the local broadcast and putting the phone next to it, so, theoretically, the record of a broadcast in Florida may reside on a dusty shelf in Alaska. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 The man in front, believed to be a short white man, threw his coat or jacket away as he was ran. The taller man, dark complexioned, but believed to be a white man, appeared to be chasing the shorter man. She did not see any weapons displayed, and has never seen this same scene depicted in any of the later television coverage of the assassination. From te Shaw trial testimony of Elizabeth Carolyn Walton" Q: Tell the Gentlemen of the Court and the Gentlemen of the Jury what you saw. A: The first time I looked I saw a man I think wearing a maroon shirt in the center of the building. The first time I looked at the building I saw a man I think in a maroon shirt in the center of the building stand up and later on I saw two men in another building and one was holding a gun and the other was standing beside him. Q: Can you describe how the two men were dressed as you saw them? A: The man wearing the gun I think was wearing a white shirt, I'm not sure. Q: How was the other man dressed? A: A brown suit coat. Q: Did anything draw your attention away from this building? A: Yes, the crowd started hollering that the motorcade was coming and I turned and looked the other way. Q: Did in fact the motorcade pass in front of you at this time? A: Yes, it did. Q: While the motorcade was passing in front of you did you have occasion to hear any unusual noises? A: Yes, sir. coat found handed to kaminski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 The man in front, believed to be a short white man, threw his coat or jacket away as he was ran. The taller man, dark complexioned, but believed to be a white man, appeared to be chasing the shorter man. She did not see any weapons displayed, and has never seen this same scene depicted in any of the later television coverage of the assassination. From te Shaw trial testimony of Elizabeth Carolyn Walton" Q: Tell the Gentlemen of the Court and the Gentlemen of the Jury what you saw. A: The first time I looked I saw a man I think wearing a maroon shirt in the center of the building. The first time I looked at the building I saw a man I think in a maroon shirt in the center of the building stand up and later on I saw two men in another building and one was holding a gun and the other was standing beside him. Q: Can you describe how the two men were dressed as you saw them? A: The man wearing the gun I think was wearing a white shirt, I'm not sure. Q: How was the other man dressed? A: A brown suit coat. Q: Did anything draw your attention away from this building? A: Yes, the crowd started hollering that the motorcade was coming and I turned and looked the other way. Q: Did in fact the motorcade pass in front of you at this time? A: Yes, it did. Q: While the motorcade was passing in front of you did you have occasion to hear any unusual noises? A: Yes, sir. coat found handed to kaminski Thanks Peter and Greg, any and all information is certainly welcome, as this thread is obviously not your usual cup of tea, in light of this document, there is another item that should be mentioned that I had never seen until 3 or 4 days ago, and in my opinion should definitely be considered in light of the Warren Commission document initially posted by myself....... ADDITIONAL DATA CONCERNING TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY BUILDING AND C Roy S Truly, Superintendent, Texas School Book Depository Building, advised that a jacket believed to be the property of Lee Harvey Oswald was brought to him three or four days after November 22, 1963 by one of the company’s employees whose name Truly could not recall. He did recall that this employee told him the jacket had been found on a window ledge in the employee recreation room, which is located in the north-east corner of the building on the first floor. The window where the jacket was found faces north and the jacket was behind a one-foot railing which sets back from the window. Mr. Truly stated that he subsequently turned the jacket over to an FBI for agent. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=8 I also should mention a fact that is definitively related to the topic being covered in this thread, which relates to the declassification process of Warren Commission documents. I think most of the researchers of the 1960's-70's era, could attest that while there were the 26 Volumes of the Warren Report "available" to those who wanted to purchase it, it is a fact that supplemental? or, should I say certain documents were not declassified until for example, 1970, 1976...et cetera Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact and Peter Dale Scott's early works, should corroborate my assertion. Point being that the point should be made that this document, referencing film footage hitherto unknown, would in my opinion have been considered top secret in every sense of the word, and the idea that if the assertions contained in the document are incontrovertible, every effort would have arguably, been made to keep this knowledge a secret.....Consider the memo that wasn't discovered until circa 1966 or later that "surgery had been performed in the head area of the President," as an example of knowledge not known until after the fact..... I also must offer my opinion, that in the case the films mentioned in the report exist today, we will never see them, and the idea that they even still exist, is a matter of serious doubt in my view, judging by the trail of missing and lost reports as mentioned in the ARRB Final Report. But I would love to be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Robert: Below is the window where LHO's said jacket was found....W/C.. ************ Amazing , say what?? Other films, photos and such disappearing, perhaps the likes of Carr, Oliver, Craig etc and many other witnesses who have been dragged through the mud, were actually telling the truth. Perhaps there is a possibly of some hope out there yet... B......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Robert: Below is the window where LHO's said jacket was found....W/C.. ************ Amazing , say what?? Other films, photos and such disappearing, perhaps the likes of Carr, Oliver, Craig etc and many other witnesses who have been dragged through the mud, were actually telling the truth. Perhaps there is a possibly of some hope out there yet... B......... What direction does the window face? Thanks, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi Will: I believe , think , hope, North .East ....1st floor....see below... B.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi Will:I believe , think , hope, North .East ....1st floor....see below... B.... Thanks, Bernice...Before I posted this, I was at maryferrell's site, trying to get a jpeg of the TSBD, that would be a panorama type image of the front, didn't have much luck. Before I go on I think it bears repeating what the document stated regarding the origin of the film...... Mr. Waldman advised that this film was recieved from Television Station KRLD, a CBS affiliate in Dallas, Texas. Bearing that in mind, there is a thread on the Forum that mentions a CBS "truck" perhaps in between the TSBD and the Union Terminal Annex Building where Harry Holmes and allegedly three other individuals were watching the events unfold with binoculars.....Such clairvoyance! At any rate, the position of the truck would perhaps shed some light regarding whether it was the western or eastern part of the rear that these two individuals emerged from......I also wonder about Dan Rather...wasn't it documented that he was holding a reel of film that was picked up just seconds after the assassination? What was that all about, can someone enlighten me regarding this? And another note.... From They've Killed The President pages 31-32.... "Like many witnesses to the assassination, James Worrell was frightened, worried that perhaps the shooting was not over. He ran from Elm, where he had watched the motorcade, past the Depository onto Houston. He did not stop until he reached the corner of Pacific Street, a hundred yards from the Depository. As he paused to catch his breath, he saw a man burst from the back door of the Depository. From where Worrell stood the man seemed to be young, dark-haired, medium height and build, wearing light pants and a dark sports jacket. That was all Worrell could see. The man was running away." After I wrote this, I just discovered that Anson's reference is WCH 16 H 959 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=138627 Worrell's description, its an affadavit; is actually a little more specific.... height 5'8 to 5'10, no hat, nothing in hands.... It is also kind of obvious, but WCD 1035 does not mention either of these two men getting into a car, ie the Rambler...... Last question, regarding the initial seconds after the assassination...isn't it true that someone testified or stated in an affidavit that they witnessed someone running parallel to the south fence around the knoll, between it and the Western portion of the TSBD, also vanishing out of sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Hi Will:I believe , think , hope, North .East ....1st floor....see below... B.... Thanks, Bernice...Before I posted this, I was at maryferrell's site, trying to get a jpeg of the TSBD, that would be a panorama type image of the front, didn't have much luck. Before I go on I think it bears repeating what the document stated regarding the origin of the film...... Mr. Waldman advised that this film was recieved from Television Station KRLD, a CBS affiliate in Dallas, Texas. Bearing that in mind, there is a thread on the Forum that mentions a CBS "truck" perhaps in between the TSBD and the Union Terminal Annex Building where Harry Holmes and allegedly three other individuals were watching the events unfold with binoculars.....Such clairvoyance! At any rate, the position of the truck would perhaps shed some light regarding whether it was the western or eastern part of the rear that these two individuals emerged from......I also wonder about Dan Rather...wasn't it documented that he was holding a reel of film that was picked up just seconds after the assassination? What was that all about, can someone enlighten me regarding this? And another note.... From They've Killed The President pages 31-32.... "Like many witnesses to the assassination, James Worrell was frightened, worried that perhaps the shooting was not over. He ran from Elm, where he had watched the motorcade, past the Depository onto Houston. He did not stop until he reached the corner of Pacific Street, a hundred yards from the Depository. As he paused to catch his breath, he saw a man burst from the back door of the Depository. From where Worrell stood the man seemed to be young, dark-haired, medium height and build, wearing light pants and a dark sports jacket. That was all Worrell could see. The man was running away." After I wrote this, I just discovered that Anson's reference is WCH 16 H 959 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=138627 Worrell's description, its an affadavit; is actually a little more specific.... height 5'8 to 5'10, no hat, nothing in hands.... It is also kind of obvious, but WCD 1035 does not mention either of these two men getting into a car, ie the Rambler...... Last question, regarding the initial seconds after the assassination...isn't it true that someone testified or stated in an affidavit that they witnessed someone running parallel to the south fence around the knoll, between it and the Western portion of the TSBD, also vanishing out of sight? ************ Robert I shall post a few photos below, but I do not think they are what you would like...FWTAW... There is a panorama available, I will see if I can find the link.... Carr & Worell were not the only who mentioned the Rambler as Craig did he stated it was a light colour with a rack on the top...as you are aware... A bit further.....from the files I have gathered.... [[ posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk on 8-22-96, by bhart@cyberramp.net (Michael Parks) ]] ======================================================================== -------------------- THE NASH RAMBLER -------------------------------- Several Dealey Plaza witnesses reported seeing a man get into a Nash Rambler shortly after the assassination. Among these witnesses is Richard Randolph Carr. He had seen a man in an upper floor of the TSBD and later watched this man get into a Nash Rambler. He said the driver of this car was either Spanish or Cuban and "real dark complected." Another witnesses was Marvin C. Robinson. He saw a "light- colored Nash station wagon" stop in front of the TSBD and a white man come down the knoll and get in the car. His story was omitted from the W.C. Exhibits. ***************************************** Mrs. Helen Forrest was standing among a group of people on the incline between the TSBD and the area known as the grassy knoll. She saw a man run down the incline from the rear of the Book Depository and enter a Nash Rambler station wagon. She later told historian Michael L. Kurtz, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin" (36). Another witness, James Pennington, saw the exact same thing (37). Due to the mysterious circumstances perceived to surround the deaths of a number of witnesses, Pennington told his story only with great reluctance (38). Marvin C. Robinson had been driving south on Houston at about 12:30 pm, and had to wait for several minutes at Houston and Elm until the motorcade had passed. An employee of his at the Garland, Texas, Ling Temco Vought (LTV) plant, Roy Cooper, was following him in his own car to Robinson's home in Oak Cliff. Robinson had just made a right turn and was driving his Cadillac west on Elm Street when a light-colored Nash Rambler station wagon pulled out in front of him and abruptly stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository; Robinson had to slam on his brakes to avoid hitting it. A young man came down the grassy incline and got into the vehicle, which sped away under the triple underpass in the direction of Oak Cliff. Robinson was interviewed by the FBI on November 23, 1963. He said he would be unable to identify the man he saw. He was not called to testify before the Warren Commission, is not mentioned in the Warren Report, and his statement was not published in the Warren Commission Hearings volumes ....CD 5.70: 12 HSCA 18. Roy Cooper of Euless, Texas, had just turned right on Elm Street and was driving west directly behind the Cadillac belonging to his supervisor, Marvin Robinson's. He saw a light-colored Nash Rambler station wagon which "pulled our real fast in front of the Cadillac driven by his boss, and his employer had to stop abruptly and nearly hit this Nash Rambler." He observed a white man between the ages of 20 and 30 come down the grassy incline, wave at the station wagon, then get in when it pulled up. He was interviewed by the Dallas FBI on November 23, 1963. "Cooper could not see who was driving the Nash Rambler and could not furnish any further description of the man who jumped in the car. They drove off at a rather fast rate of speed and went down toward the overpass toward Oak Cliff. . . . He believed that Robinson could give further information about the Rambler station wagon, also the driver and the rider" (40). Roy Cooper was not called as a witness by the Warren Commission or the House Select Committee on Assassinations; his FBI report was classified until at least 1992. It was discovered at the National Archives II building in College Park, Maryland by researcher Chris Courtwright in 1996 ( Kelin, "Yet Another Eyewitness" Fair Play # 17 In another voluntary statement to the sheriff's department dated November 22, 1963, Jesse C. Price of Dallas was quoted as saying he also saw a man fleeing from the plaza after the assassination. Price said in his notarized statement that at approximately 12:35 p.m. on November 22, 1963, he was on the roof of the Terminal Annex Building and saw the Presidential motorcade proceeding west on Elm Street until it was a short distance from the overpass.(159) After hearing the volley of shots, Price saw a man run toward the passenger cars at the railroad siding. In the sheriff's statement, Price described the man as about 25 years of age with long, dark hair. He was wearing a white dress shirt with no tie and khaki-colored trousers.(162) Price said the man was carrying something in his hand and that it may have been a "head piece" Price was interviewed by the FBI in Dallas on November 24, 1863. However, that report quotes Price only as saying he looked in the direction of the overpass at the time of the shots, but "saw nothing pertinent." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm One more Jean Hill, though Specter tries to confuse her and all, she gets it out and in the record... Mr. SPECTER - North side of Elm Street? Mrs. HILL - That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--I would say he was running. Mr. SPECTER - Where was that man when you first saw him? Mrs. HILL - He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope. Mr. SPECTER - Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building? Mrs. HILL - Yes. Mr. SPECTER - At the west end? Mrs. HILL - More to the west end. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_j.htm I will have a furtrher look for a truck in that immediate area.....or perhaps others may find such.. For now... B.... Edited January 29, 2009 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Robert Perhaps this or similar is a truck, you are looking for...?? This is an early KRLD-TV mobile unit. That's the Dallas Times Herald building in the backgroun B......... Edited January 29, 2009 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Robert: ""I also wonder about Dan Rather...wasn't it documented that he was holding a reel of film that was picked up just seconds after the assassination? What was that all about, can someone enlighten me regarding this?"" As for Rather, he stated he was on the other side of the underpass...see photo.... He was no where near the TSBD area.....and well, deep research has shown there was serious differences within..his statements... B.. Edited January 29, 2009 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 Robert:""I also wonder about Dan Rather...wasn't it documented that he was holding a reel of film that was picked up just seconds after the assassination? What was that all about, can someone enlighten me regarding this?"" As for Rather, he stated he was on the other side of the underpass...see photo.... He was no where near the TSBD area.....and well, deep research has shown there was serious differences within..his statements... B.. Many, many thanks Bernice, you obviously went to a great deal of trouble, in providing the images. It is strange how Richard Randolph Carr has resurfaced in a few current threads......Eh..... There is a lot going on right now, and this topic is pretty much at the top of the list....... Thanks to everyone who contributed.....The last thought I will leave you with is that even though I do not get involved in the Zapruder thread's, I am not ignorant of the issues involved......I will just add that I have examined the famous Altgens photograph, from the day after the JFK Assassination and noticed something extremely strange about it, and I asked a dispassionate bystander [a librarian, who had no idea what I was thinking] if she noticed anything strange about it.... You know what she said? "Yeah, It looks like some of the people in the photograph have been photoshopped in." I have also observed the same dynamic in the photograph in which it was claimed Allen Dulles and Jack Ruby were in the crowd, which is when the motorcade turns onto Main Street, if you didn't know....... And here's where it gets even stranger...... It is alleged that that was the corner that someone tried to warn JFK that he was about to be assassinated....according to an article in the Continuing Inquiry, although that is a very murky area. Now before anyone writes me off, yes it does sound very, very odd...an understatement...But when you consider that a writer for the Dallas Morning news stated implicitly that a key line was deleted from an article she wrote immediately after the assassination......It does not sound so crazy, does it.....One is written, the other is a photograph The long and the short of it, is that I get the same type of sensation when I initially read the document that started this thread..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernice Moore Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Robert:""I also wonder about Dan Rather...wasn't it documented that he was holding a reel of film that was picked up just seconds after the assassination? What was that all about, can someone enlighten me regarding this?"" As for Rather, he stated he was on the other side of the underpass...see photo.... He was no where near the TSBD area.....and well, deep research has shown there was serious differences within..his statements... B.. Many, many thanks Bernice, you obviously went to a great deal of trouble, in providing the images. It is strange how Richard Randolph Carr has resurfaced in a few current threads......Eh..... There is a lot going on right now, and this topic is pretty much at the top of the list....... Thanks to everyone who contributed.....The last thought I will leave you with is that even though I do not get involved in the Zapruder thread's, I am not ignorant of the issues involved......I will just add that I have examined the famous Altgens photograph, from the day after the JFK Assassination and noticed something extremely strange about it, and I asked a dispassionate bystander [a librarian, who had no idea what I was thinking] if she noticed anything strange about it.... You know what she said? "Yeah, It looks like some of the people in the photograph have been photoshopped in." I have also observed the same dynamic in the photograph in which it was claimed Allen Dulles and Jack Ruby were in the crowd, which is when the motorcade turns onto Main Street, if you didn't know....... And here's where it gets even stranger...... It is alleged that that was the corner that someone tried to warn JFK that he was about to be assassinated....according to an article in the Continuing Inquiry, although that is a very murky area. Now before anyone writes me off, yes it does sound very, very odd...an understatement...But when you consider that a writer for the Dallas Morning news stated implicitly that a key line was deleted from an article she wrote immediately after the assassination......It does not sound so crazy, does it.....One is written, the other is a photograph The long and the short of it, is that I get the same type of sensation when I initially read the document that started this thread..... ****************** Yes Robert many ehs!! keep coming around....again...... ....As they say, are we having fun yet....?. Agreed some do for some reason, appear to be photoshopped......not only the Altgens..... no reason to ever wonder the why.... Some years ago I read where an elderly man stated the proof was in the Altgens.... I have never forgotten those words...and that photo has gone round and round the bush for many years now. The running man in the Main St, area, was bounced firmly and flatly on his tothers...if you are referring to the same.. and by the SS.... Here is another similar to the one line being deleted, that you mention, but how about an article being relegated to the back pages of the Dallas paper...I believe the DMN.....and then surprise, !! disappearing entirely....and it also connected with the... a la Zapruder......How about the name Vivian Castleberry, very interesting story that, like many others did not go anywhere....more eh!!s.... Aw, never feel bad Robert, if whomevers write you off, after all who are the whomevers .. just whomevers.... been there and done that.. and one carrys on..lotsa games.... Best of luck in your research, and you are very welcome.... B....... Edited January 30, 2009 by Bernice Moore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Lane Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 ... From They've Killed The President pages 31-32...."Like many witnesses to the assassination, James Worrell was frightened, worried that perhaps the shooting was not over. He ran from Elm, where he had watched the motorcade, past the Depository onto Houston. He did not stop until he reached the corner of Pacific Street, a hundred yards from the Depository. As he paused to catch his breath, he saw a man burst from the back door of the Depository. From where Worrell stood the man seemed to be young, dark-haired, medium height and build, wearing light pants and a dark sports jacket. That was all Worrell could see. The man was running away." After I wrote this, I just discovered that Anson's reference is WCH 16 H 959 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=138627 Worrell's description, its an affadavit; is actually a little more specific.... height 5'8 to 5'10, no hat, nothing in hands.... It is also kind of obvious, but WCD 1035 does not mention either of these two men getting into a car, ie the Rambler...... Dickey Worrell's time and distance estimates were all out of whack. Check his testimony to see how long (or short) it was between various events, and it's obvious that he could not keep track of time ... or worse.The same is true of his distance estimates; see where he estimated that the limousine passed as much as 50, 75 or 100 yards in front of him ... as he stood near the southeast corner of the TSBD directly under the "sniper's nest" window. A football field's-length away? We all know better than that. The TSBD building measures only 100' x 100' on the inside, thus if Worrell was "a hundred yards from the Depository," he was more than two blocks away. Pacific Street is directly behind the Dal-Tex Building, and would have run into the TSBD's loading dock if it continued west past Houston Street. "The corner of Pacific Street" and "a hundred yards from the Depository" has a twain that shall never meet. More telling is the fact that a photograph was taken of that area of the TSBD moments before JFK was shot, and there is, unfortunately, nobody even remotely matching Worrell's description standing in that location. In an article entitled "Imaginary Witness," published in Deep Politics Quarterly (January 2007?), I dissected Worrell's purported movements vis a vis the President's arrival, the motorcade's route, the bus schedule and the shooting. In it, I determined it was possible for Worrell to have been in DP at 12:30, but only if the bus he got on at Love was running 10 minutes or more late, and he knew exactly where he wanted to go after getting off the bus (and that after having crossed through the crowds on Main Street to get there, i.e., bypassed the obvious parade route). Bottom line: Dickey most likely wasn't there. Last question, regarding the initial seconds after the assassination...isn't it true that someone testified or stated in an affidavit that they witnessed someone running parallel to the south fence around the knoll, between it and the Western portion of the TSBD, also vanishing out of sight?Actually, this is the story that Richard Carr told to Penn Jones, after having told something different to the FBI in 1964, and before having sworn to something different yet again during the Shaw trial in 1969. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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