Josiah Thompson Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's?According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry I agree. It looks to me like the flag gets in the way of Greer. Do you folks have any opinion as to whether the mirror is cutting off part of that has been called the "spiral nebula" patch? That's the way it looks to me but sometimes one's eyes deceive. Josiah Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's?According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry Hi Jerry, It looks like his right shoulder, along with his neck and ear exposed, when compared to JBC's profile. It appears that Greer's head is turned even farther towards the rear seat than JBC's, when a comparison is made. I've stabilized Greer in this movie. http://98.155.2.255:8400/89944/Headturn.mov If you look closely, you can actually see his head/face in some of it. I don't see the extent of his head turn in Z, that I do in Altgen's at frame 254/255. What do you think? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 This is a better frame of Greer's face through the windshield. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 ...I don't see the extent of his head turn in Z, that I do in Altgen's at frame 254/255.What do you think? chris Chris, Your Zapruder head turn graphics are great - as usual! I'm not sure we're on the same page about how much of Greer we see in Altgens. For example, I'm pretty sure all of the area outlined in white is Mrs. Kennedy, not Greer. I'm having a devil of a time getting a decent screen capture but check the George Jefferies film at the start of the limousine close-up. That looks very close to Altgens L/R point of view. If so, it gives a good idea of how much Greer we'd see, which isn't much. The bottom line is that I think we're getting some of his shoulder in Altgens and you think we're seeing a lot more of him. So I can't say how far he appears turned in Altgens and therefore can't compare with Zapruder. Best to you, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What about Nellie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) What about Nellie? John, That's a good question. Nellie seems to be hard right at this time against the limousine door, plus she's smaller than Greer. Mrs. Kennedy has leaned in a little toward her husband plus she's larger (higher) than Nellie. Nellie can't be discounted but I think it's likely that she's behind Greer and the flag. Best to you, Jerry Edited March 15, 2010 by Jerry Logan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's?According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry I agree. It looks to me like the flag gets in the way of Greer. Do you folks have any opinion as to whether the mirror is cutting off part of that has been called the "spiral nebula" patch? That's the way it looks to me but sometimes one's eyes deceive. Josiah Thompson Josiah, I'm not sure about the mirror but it does seem pretty clear that the bottom of the "nebula" traces the exact curve of the President's shoulder. That indicates the President's shoulder is in front of "nebula"; placing the "nebula" behind the President and as some part of the background partially obscured by the limousine occupants. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's?According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry Hi Jerry, It looks like his right shoulder, along with his neck and ear exposed, when compared to JBC's profile. It appears that Greer's head is turned even farther towards the rear seat than JBC's, when a comparison is made. I've stabilized Greer in this movie. http://98.155.2.255:8400/89944/Headturn.mov If you look closely, you can actually see his head/face in some of it. I don't see the extent of his head turn in Z, that I do in Altgen's at frame 254/255. What do you think? chris Chris...way too small to be Greer. Interesting, however. But the important thing is your enlargement seems to put to rest the shape of the JFK head in relation to the spiral nebula. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Jerry, The Jefferies film was a little to small to see the steering wheel clearly, but that led me to another comparison frame. This one appears to validate your initial description of not seeing very much, if any, of Greer. Thank you, chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Jerry, The Jefferies film was a little to small to see the steering wheel clearly, but that led me to another comparison frame. This one appears to validate your initial description of not seeing very much, if any, of Greer. Thank you, chris Chris, Your access to photo resources never ceases to amaze me. That's a nice find. I was zipping through files and Jefferies was the best I could locate. This is much better. Thanks, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 What happened to Greer's white shirt in Altgen's?According to the WC reenactment, shouldn't it be there? Z shows a hard (right hand) motion with the steering wheel and a rising/bracing of Greer from his seat. ( Movie Frames 225-255) chris Chris, I don't think the colorization got as far as Greer but it looks to me like the white shirt would fall just behind the flag if we assume it's Greer's right (his right) shoulder partly blocking the view to Mrs. Kennedy. I'm not sure about the rising/bracing v. that's the angle where his shoulder blends into the windshield sun strip. He's definitely moving because he eventually winds up looking over his right shoulder and you're very sharp to have noticed the right hand /steering wheel move. Best regards to you, Jerry Hi Jerry, It looks like his right shoulder, along with his neck and ear exposed, when compared to JBC's profile. It appears that Greer's head is turned even farther towards the rear seat than JBC's, when a comparison is made. I've stabilized Greer in this movie. http://98.155.2.255:8400/89944/Headturn.mov If you look closely, you can actually see his head/face in some of it. I don't see the extent of his head turn in Z, that I do in Altgen's at frame 254/255. What do you think? chris Chris...way too small to be Greer. Interesting, however. But the important thing is your enlargement seems to put to rest the shape of the JFK head in relation to the spiral nebula. Jack Jack, Chris used a high contrast image for his purposes which causes some non-edge detail to drop out. Unless the President was a conehead your outline makes no sense. Note the more detailed image and Martin's colorization. FWIW the "spiral nebula" looks a lot more like part of the background materials above and beside it in Chris's version but I'm not putting too much stock in that because of the higher contrast. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josiah Thompson Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Chris...way too small to be Greer. Interesting, however. But the important thing is your enlargement seems to put to rest the shape of the JFK head in relation to the spiral nebula. Jack Jack, Chris used a high contrast image for his purposes which causes some non-edge detail to drop out. Unless the President was a conehead your outline makes no sense. Note the more detailed image and Martin's colorization. FWIW the "spiral nebula" looks a lot more like part of the background materials above and beside it in Chris's version but I'm not putting too much stock in that because of the higher contrast. Jerry Agreed Jerry. It seems abundantly clear when looking at good prints of this photo that the "spiral nebula" form is something on Lady #8 seen through the windshield. Is there any way to refine what one's eyes tells one immediately by getting down to the grain (or pixel) level in the black and white photo? If JFK's shoulder cuts off the bottom of the "nebula," that in itself is a proof of what our eyes tell us. Is there any way to show this in a photo-technical way? Josiah Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Agreed Jerry. It seems abundantly clear when looking at good prints of this photo that the "spiral nebula" form is something on Lady #8 seen through the windshield. Is there any way to refine what one's eyes tells one immediately by getting down to the grain (or pixel) level in the black and white photo? If JFK's shoulder cuts off the bottom of the "nebula," that in itself is a proof of what our eyes tell us. Is there any way to show this in a photo-technical way?Josiah Thompson Josiah, I'm not sure there's anything we could do with prints since there's no way of knowing how the exposures were made for different areas of the film (dodging and burning). If we had access to the original negative we could use a densitometer to determine if the density values of the "nebula" matched the values for the background objects. As I've been looking over photos with Chris what I've had a really hard time seeing is how there could be a throat shot to the President through the windshield at the "nebula" location when JFK and JBC are in their pre-shot locations. Best to you, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Am I the ONLY one who thinks JFK's face did not look like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Am I the ONLY one who thinks JFK's face did not look like this? The folks at Duncan's forum thought the area in red was the President's right hand. If so, you're not seeing much of his face, just his forehead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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