Jump to content
The Education Forum

Dyslexia V Asperger's


Recommended Posts

So Greg have you asked anyone with mental health training to verify your diagnosis? It seems unfounded and a case of special pleading. With many of the possible symptoms of the afflictions you say things like "unknown" "insufficient evidence one way or the other" or "n/a" at other times you say "some evidence that this applied to Oswald" without supply any supporting evidence.

At times you show signs of steering the evidence to fit you conclusion. For example you wrote

that "Relies on memory; may have an excellent memory." was a sign of Dyslexia and classified this as "unknown" for LHO but lower down cited the fact that he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" as a sign of Asperger's. The evidence in support of you conclusion is often strained for example you wrote about a symtom of the latter disorder:

• Adherence to routines and schedules, and stress if expected routine is disrupted (Oswald was a prolific writer of “to do” lists)

But making and adhering to "to do" lists are separate things, any evidence he became "stress[ed] if expected routine is disrupted"

One of the main - but by no means the only tell-tale sign Oswald had Asperger's is that people with AS are not only often interested in foreign languages, they have the extraordinary ability to master foreign languages and speak them like a native.

On your site you cited a book which stated “Sometimes the person with Asperger’s Syndrome can have a natural talent and special interest in foreign languages. The person can acquire the ability to speak many languages without the pronunciation errors expected when a typical person from a specific home country learns that language...When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.

Except Marina said "when Lee invited me to dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent." and apparently she told Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well," and "they speak with accents and do not [normally] speak Russian."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce994.htm

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html

Edited by Len Colby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Greg have you asked anyone with mental health training to verify your diagnosis?

Why would I, Len? I have used the same diagnostic tool as health professionals, and it is as simple as having enough boxes ticked to make a correct diagnosis. It isn't rocket science. But there is nothing stopping you from doing it. Or you could simply satisfy yourself by studying Oswald and learning if all the right boxes have been ticked.

It seems unfounded

Only because that is your default position on most things in these forums. You certainly don't have the knowledge of Oswald on which to base that opinion in this instance.

and a case of special pleading.

Not at all. Your accusation is without substance.

From wiki:

"Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption"

1. I have not deliberately excluded unfavorable details, and am quite happy to include anything missed, but it does in fact, include unfavorable details as it is, and you ought not insinuate otherwise.

2. How am I avoiding criticism when I have posted the info to two forums where anyone is free to give a critique?

3. I have NOT attempted to cite anything as an exemption to any rule or principle.

Moreover, your hypocrisy in accusing me of special pleadings and then going on to cite the Royal Couple of special pleadings is noted.

With many of the possible symptoms of the afflictions you say things like "unknown" "insufficient evidence one way or the other" or "n/a" at other times you say "some evidence that this applied to Oswald" without supply any supporting evidence.

Your lack of knowledge is on display. Most researchers will not need examples. They know them. Sorry, but this isn't aimed at people like you, but those actually interested in the case.

At times you show signs of steering the evidence to fit you conclusion. For example you wrote

that "Relies on memory; may have an excellent memory." was a sign of Dyslexia and classified this as "unknown" for LHO but lower down cited the fact that he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" as a sign of Asperger's.

You are correct here, and I will make an amendment so that it reads "unknown as to how much he relied on memory; some evidence indicates above average memory.

The evidence in support of you conclusion is often strained for example you wrote about a symtom of the latter disorder:

• Adherence to routines and schedules, and stress if expected routine is disrupted (Oswald was a prolific writer of “to do” lists)

But making and adhering to "to do" lists are separate things, any evidence he became "stress[ed] if expected routine is disrupted"

He definitely adhered to those lists. I will make another amendment to add that it is unknown as to how he would have coped had he not been able to adhere to such lists.

QUOTE

One of the main - but by no means the only tell-tale sign Oswald had Asperger's is that people with AS are not only often interested in foreign languages, they have the extraordinary ability to master foreign languages and speak them like a native.

On your site you cited a book which stated “Sometimes the person with Asperger’s Syndrome can have a natural talent and special interest in foreign languages. The person can acquire the ability to speak many languages without the pronunciation errors expected when a typical person from a specific home country learns that language...When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.

Except Marina said "when Lee invited me to dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent." and apparently she told Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well," and "they speak with accents and do not [normally] speak Russian."

Ah yes. I see that you have been made an honorary member in good standing with the Two Oswald Cult because of this little find on the Royal Couple sites.

Sorry too burst your bubble, but what she told the authorities after the assassination was "Oswald's Russian, although good, bore a definite accent. She thought that he had probably come from one of the Russian speaking Baltic countries."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...sPageId=1202739

George De Mohrenchildt shed further light in his manuscript when he said:

"Marina had a bad habit of constantly correcting Lee when he was speaking Russian and that annoyed him and me. Lee, for a man of his background, had a remarkable talent for Russian and Marina foolishly tried to blow up his occasional mistakes or ridicule his slight accent. It's difficult to know two languages to perfection and Lee's English was perfect, refined, rather literary, deprived of any Southern accent. He sounded like a very educated American of indeterminate background. But to know Russian as he did was remarkable - to appreciate serious literature -- was something out of the ordinary. He had affinity to the Russian ways of life, customs, music and food."

It sounds like she was continuing to do precisely as DeM says when she spoke with that other GP.

To suggest that what I said doesn't count because he sounded like he had a slight Baltic accent, is the same as saying a Russian failed to speak American-English like a native only because he sounded like he had a slight Canadian accent!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know but perhaps the list issue can be explored by considering his early youth when his mother ran a home decorating business from home and Lees role in that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no, early acquired childhood obsession is the suggestion. Or just acquired skill.

edit edit

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Greg have you asked anyone with mental health training to verify your diagnosis?

Why would I, Len? I have used the same diagnostic tool as health professionals, and it is as simple as having enough boxes ticked to make a correct diagnosis. It isn't rocket science. But there is nothing stopping you from doing it. Or you could simply satisfy yourself by studying Oswald and learning if all the right boxes have been ticked.

You’re right Greg, untrained amateurs can accurately diagnose patients they never met on the basis of information they gleaned off the internet. Neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists are seemingly superfluous. what sort of treatment would “Doctor” Parker have prescribed for Oswald?

Not at all. Your accusation is without substance.

From wiki:

"Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption

1. I have not deliberately excluded unfavorable details, and am quite happy to include anything missed, but it does in fact, include unfavorable details as it is, and you ought not insinuate otherwise. "

As previously explained you claimed there was no evidence LHO had a good memory when it suited you than lower on the same page said he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" when it fit your theory. Glad that you will correct that.

2. How am I avoiding criticism when I have posted the info to two forums where anyone is free to give a critique?

Read that again it read “without proper criticism of these considerations themselves”

3. I have NOT attempted to cite anything as an exemption to any rule or principle.[/b]

Moreover, your hypocrisy in accusing me of special pleadings and then going on to cite the Royal Couple of special pleadings is noted.

I never cited them I cited primary evidence hosted on their sites. Ad hom noted

QUOTE

One of the main - but by no means the only tell-tale sign Oswald had Asperger's is that people with AS are not only often interested in foreign languages, they have the extraordinary ability to master foreign languages and speak them like a native.

On your site you cited a book which stated “Sometimes the person with Asperger’s Syndrome can have a natural talent and special interest in foreign languages. The person can acquire the ability to speak many languages without the pronunciation errors expected when a typical person from a specific home country learns that language...When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.

Except Marina said "when Lee invited me to dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent." and apparently she told Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well," and "they speak with accents and do not [normally] speak Russian."

Ah yes. I see that you have been made an honorary member in good standing with the Two Oswald Cult because of this little find on the Royal Couple sites.

Repeat of Ad Hom noted

Sorry too burst your bubble, but what she told the authorities after the assassination was "Oswald's Russian, although good, bore a definite accent. She thought that he had probably come from one of the Russian speaking Baltic countries."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...sPageId=1202739

George De Mohrenchildt shed further light in his manuscript when he said:

"Marina had a bad habit of constantly correcting Lee when he was speaking Russian and that annoyed him and me. Lee, for a man of his background, had a remarkable talent for Russian and Marina foolishly tried to blow up his occasional mistakes or ridicule his slight accent. It's difficult to know two languages to perfection and Lee's English was perfect, refined, rather literary, deprived of any Southern accent. He sounded like a very educated American of indeterminate background. But to know Russian as he did was remarkable - to appreciate serious literature -- was something out of the ordinary. He had affinity to the Russian ways of life, customs, music and food."

It sounds like she was continuing to do precisely as DeM says when she spoke with that other GP.

To suggest that what I said doesn't count because he sounded like he had a slight Baltic accent, is the same as saying a Russian failed to speak American-English like a native only because he sounded like he had a slight Canadian accent!

Unfortunately the 201 report paraphrased rather than directly quoted Marina. Are you now citing DeM as a reliable source? Note that he confirmed that LHO had an accent as he did on other occasions. Your source said that people who suffer from Asperger’s speak foreign languages without one.

Your “Canadian accent” analogy does hold because Canadians (except Québécoise) are native speakers of English but people from the Baltics are NOT native speakers of Russian. A brief history lesson Most of the Baltics came under Russian control in 1795 but AFAIK the natives were not obliged to learn the imperial language. They declared independence in 1918 were briefly occupied by the Soviets at the beginning of WW2 but only re-concurred in 1944 at which time learning Russian became mandatory. Thus a more accurate analogy would be to a Russian speaking English with an accent like that of a Québécoise, Scandinavian, German, Israeli, Indian, West African etc. Do think Marina would have expected there to be someone from beyond the Iron Curtain at a factory dance in Minsk? I have lived in northeastern Brazil since 1993, despite only speaking broken Spanish when I arrived and coming into contact with many English speakers after a similar amount of time people asked me if I was from Portugal or a former Portuguese colony some even asked if I was from the south. Perhaps I have Aspergers too! Perhaps all those actors who imitate accents for an entire movie do as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You’re right Greg, untrained amateurs can accurately diagnose patients they never met on the basis of information they gleaned off the internet. Neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists are seemingly superfluous. what sort of treatment would “Doctor” Parker have prescribed for Oswald?

Here is the assessment tool used by medical professionals:

From the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM IV

(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

( A ) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction

( B ) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

( C ) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)

( D ) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

( A ) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

( B ) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals

( C ) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)

( D ) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."

Does anyone here agree with Len that a non-professional could not make an assessment using this tool - whether or not they have sufficient knowledge of Oswald?

For my assessment, see: Dyslexia V Asperger's

Maybe Len can point to any records which show that Oswald was diagnosed with Dyslexia by a health professional or (or even a teacher!) while he was alive?

As previously explained you claimed there was no evidence LHO had a good memory when it suited you than lower on the same page said he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" when it fit your theory. Glad that you will correct that.

Will get to it today!

Read that again it read “without proper criticism of these considerations themselves”

Okay - so what "special considerations" have I tried to introduce - with or without criticism of such considerations? You're just clutching at straw here aren't you, Len?

I never cited them I cited primary evidence hosted on their sites. Ad hom noted

ROFL! Since WHEN is a critique of a movie considered "primary evidence" of anything - except maybe your own lack of judgement? Please please o pretty please show me where you or they adhere to the same standards you rigidly (and sometimes spuriously) want to apply to me!

We both know you can't.

Using anything on their sites is an admission you give them a free pass no matter how many of the "rules of research" they break, make up or ignore...

Trying to pass off a movie critique as evidence - nay PRIMARY evidence --- well... my flabber is gasted...

Repeat of Ad Hom noted

Nope. Just noting a fact... strange bedfellows... on the face of it...

Unfortunately the 201 report paraphrased rather than directly quoted Marina.

Get a clue: "paraphrase" does not mean "made up". It is merely the essence of what was said. If you want to argue they lied about her saying Oswald's Russian was good, please provide evidence for it.

Are you now citing DeM as a reliable source? Note that he confirmed that LHO had an accent as he did on other occasions.

Yes. And he said "slight accent".

Your source said that people who suffer from Asperger’s speak foreign languages without one.

Which Oswald did. His slight accent was not American; but one common in the Soviet Bloc

As previously explained you claimed there was no evidence LHO had a good memory when it suited you than lower on the same page said he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" when it fit your theory. Glad that you will correct that.

Here is what you are talking about. It is under the heading of typical signs of adult dyslexia:

* Relies on memory; may have an excellent memory. (my comment: unknown re LHO)

Despite what you say, my comment was in regard to how much he relies on memory. I inadvertantly failed to take the second part into account, and when you pointed it out, I said I would make a correction. On reflection though, I am not sure what that will be, or even if I will make a change. Yes, I did say later - under the Asperger's assessment that he memorised the Marine Manual. Yet Oswald could not apparently rely on memory for other things such as shopping lists, and names and addresses. With Asperger's, I cited the memorizing of the Marine Manual as evidence of "specialised fields of interest". I believe someone with Asperger's could indeed have a poor memory for mundane things while being able to memorise entire books if the book was within their narrow field/s of interest.

Your “Canadian accent” analogy does hold because Canadians (except Québécoise) are native speakers of English but people from the Baltics are NOT native speakers of Russian. A brief history lesson Most of the Baltics came under Russian control in 1795 but AFAIK the natives were not obliged to learn the imperial language. They declared independence in 1918 were briefly occupied by the Soviets at the beginning of WW2 but only re-concurred in 1944 at which time learning Russian became mandatory. Thus a more accurate analogy would be to a Russian speaking English with an accent like that of a Québécoise, Scandinavian, German, Israeli, Indian, West African etc. Do think Marina would have expected there to be someone from beyond the Iron Curtain at a factory dance in Minsk? I have lived in northeastern Brazil since 1993, despite only speaking broken Spanish when I arrived and coming into contact with many English speakers after a similar amount of time people asked me if I was from Portugal or a former Portuguese colony some even asked if I was from the south. Perhaps I have Aspergers too! Perhaps all those actors who imitate accents for an entire movie do as well.

Quote from above: "but AFAIK the natives were not obliged to learn the imperial language"

From Wiki: "During the period of Soviet control, Russian became the most commonly studied foreign language at all levels of schooling, but knowledge of German remained fairly common among the older generations. The Soviet Union conducted a policy of Russification by encouraging Russians and other Russian-speaking ethnic groups of USSR to settle in the Baltic Republics. According to Soviet law, the three local languages (Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian) had the status of official languages in the three respective Republics and were used in schools and local administrative apparatus[citation needed] in parallel with Russian. However, as the Russian-speaking settlers from USSR formed an ever larger part of the population and typically were neither encouraged nor motivated to learn the local language, almost everybody had to learn Russian to some extent and use it whenever communicating with Russian-speakers in daily life."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states...s_and_languages

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You’re right Greg, untrained amateurs can accurately diagnose patients they never met on the basis of information they gleaned off the internet. Neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists are seemingly superfluous. what sort of treatment would “Doctor” Parker have prescribed for Oswald?

Here is the assessment tool used by medical professionals:

From the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM IV

(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

( A ) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction

( B ) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

( C ) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)

( D ) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

( A ) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

( B ) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals

( C ) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)

( D ) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."

Does anyone here agree with Len that a non-professional could not make an assessment using this tool - whether or not they have sufficient knowledge of Oswald?

For my assessment, see: Dyslexia V Asperger's

Oswald did display I) and III) but so does just about every socially akward underachiever not so sure about II)

"Maybe Len can point to any records which show that Oswald was diagnosed with Dyslexia by a health professional or (or even a teacher!) while he was alive?"

Strawman as I never said or implied he was dyslexic let alone that he’d been diagnosed “Dyslexia by a health professional or (or even a teacher!) while he was alive”

Read that again it read “without proper criticism of these considerations themselves”

Okay - so what "special considerations" have I tried to introduce - with or without criticism of such considerations? You're just clutching at straw here aren't you, Len?

The one about his memory is one I imagine if I could be bothered to do further research I could dig up others.

I never cited them I cited primary evidence hosted on their sites. Ad hom noted

ROFL! Since WHEN is a critique of a movie considered "primary evidence" of anything - except maybe your own lack of judgement? Please please o pretty please show me where you or they adhere to the same standards you rigidly (and sometimes spuriously) want to apply to me!

We both know you can't.

Trying to pass off a movie critique as evidence - nay PRIMARY evidence --- well... my flabber is gasted...

LOL YOU leave ME stumped? That is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future unless I suffer major head trauma. I cited a direct quote of a statement Marina made to Posner as quoted by Retizes the same quote also appears in Russo . I didn’t cite any other parts of the Retizes’ review of JFK. The McAdams link was to a WC exhibit, the typed translation of a hand written statement she wrote in Russian for them. The statement and translation are available on various other sites including the AARP. Witness statements are primary evidence.

"Using anything on their sites is an admission you give them a free pass no matter how many of the "rules of research" they break, make up or ignore..."

BS witness statements are witness statements no matter where they appear, Marina told the HSCA the same thing she told Posner:

Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because
they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages
.

Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?

Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?

Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

According to Russo “Vyacneslev Nikonnov, the KGB officer who reviewed the KGB file on Oswald after the fall of communism, said in 1993, "I don't think her impression of Oswald being from a Baltic State really reflects his good knowledge of Russian because most people from the Baltic States do not speak good Russian. In fact, they are foreigners”

Russo turned up others (admittedly most of him whom only had contact with him his first month or two in the USSR) who attested to Oswald’s poor Russian speaking abilities including his tour guide, first girlfriend (until Jan 1961), the doctor who treated him after his suicide attempt, one of his Russian teachers, various hotel employees and if you believe it was him the KGB agent who interviewed "LHO" in Mexico City. The teacher said "But I can't say that he was very good at languages. So thought he spent many hours the result was good ". Even Oswald himself said on November 15, 1959 “Oh, I’ve been in a lot of classes in Russian…I can get along in restaurants, but my Russian is very bad.”

CE 993 and its translation (CE 994) from the AARB http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol18_0281b.htm

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol18_0305b.htm

Russo http://books.google.com.br/books?id=7Q87Rr...wC&pg=PA533

Marina’s HSCA testimony http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

Repeat of Ad Hom noted

Nope. Just noting a fact... strange bedfellows... on the face of it...

It was an ad hom I was quoting Marina, as John has noted McAdams’ site tends to be among the first results for assassination related Google searches, same goes for Retizes’s site.

Unfortunately the 201 report paraphrased rather than directly quoted Marina.

Get a clue: "paraphrase" does not mean "made up". It is merely the essence of what was said. If you want to argue they lied about her saying Oswald's Russian was good, please provide evidence for it.

Direct quotes are preferable to indirect ones, she said it was good not that he spoke like a native speaker, in fact she said he had a Baltic

accent. People from the Baltics are not native speakers

Are you now citing DeM as a reliable source? Note that he confirmed that LHO had an accent as he did on other occasions.

Yes. And he said "slight accent".

Various Russians said otherwise. Their opinions are more definitive than DeM’s. They had lived in Russia all their lives when they met him and presumably were sane, most were actually Russian. DeM was crazy of German decent and was born in in the Gomel (Hominel) district of Mogilev in Belarus in 1911. According to the 1897 census less than 10% of the population spoke Russian proper as their native tongue most spoke the “Belarussian” dialect. He moved to Poland in 1922 and to Belgium in 1931. When he met Oswald he’d not lived in “Russia” for 40 years. In the same manuscript he acknowledged that he and the other Dallas Russians “anglicized our language and bastardized it by foreign intonations and words.” It should also be noted that DeM wrote “I’m a Patsy, I’m a Patsy” during the last few months of his life, a period he was in and out of mental hospitals.

1897 census results for Gomel

http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_lan_97_...eng.php?reg=798

I’m a Patsy, I’m a Patsy

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscapatsy.htm

Your source said that people who suffer from Asperger’s speak foreign languages without one.

Which Oswald did. His slight accent was not American; but one common in the Soviet Bloc

See above. Marina never said his accent was slight, she indicted he spoke like the non-native speaker which he was. She did NOT identify his accent as being specifically Baltic in direct quotes. We have to take in to account what was in her realm of expectation, she met him at a winter factory dance in Minsk, she assumed he was from the USSR

As previously explained you claimed there was no evidence LHO had a good memory when it suited you than lower on the same page said he "memorised the Marine Manual at age 15" when it fit your theory. Glad that you will correct that.

Here is what you are talking about. It is under the heading of typical signs of adult dyslexia:

* Relies on memory; may have an excellent memory. (my comment: unknown re LHO)

Despite what you say, my comment was in regard to how much he relies on memory. I inadvertantly failed to take the second part into account, and when you pointed it out, I said I would make a correction. On reflection though, I am not sure what that will be, or even if I will make a change. Yes, I did say later - under the Asperger's assessment that he memorised the Marine Manual. Yet Oswald could not apparently rely on memory for other things such as shopping lists, and names and addresses. With Asperger's, I cited the memorizing of the Marine Manual as evidence of "specialised fields of interest". I believe someone with Asperger's could indeed have a poor memory for mundane things while being able to memorise entire books if the book was within their narrow field/s of interest.

The above is an excellent example of you adapting the evidence to fit your conclusion rather than the other way round.

Your “Canadian accent” analogy does hold because Canadians (except Québécoise) are native speakers of English but people from the Baltics are NOT native speakers of Russian. A brief history lesson Most of the Baltics came under Russian control in 1795 but AFAIK the natives were not obliged to learn the imperial language. They declared independence in 1918 were briefly occupied by the Soviets at the beginning of WW2 but only re-concurred in 1944 at which time learning Russian became mandatory. Thus a more accurate analogy would be to a Russian speaking English with an accent like that of a Québécoise, Scandinavian, German, Israeli, Indian, West African etc. Do think Marina would have expected there to be someone from beyond the Iron Curtain at a factory dance in Minsk? I have lived in northeastern Brazil since 1993, despite only speaking broken Spanish when I arrived and coming into contact with many English speakers after a similar amount of time people asked me if I was from Portugal or a former Portuguese colony some even asked if I was from the south. Perhaps I have Aspergers too! Perhaps all those actors who imitate accents for an entire movie do as well.

Quote from above: "but AFAIK the natives were not obliged to learn the imperial language"

From Wiki: "During the period of Soviet control, Russian became the most commonly studied foreign language at all levels of schooling, but knowledge of German remained fairly common among the older generations. The Soviet Union conducted a policy of Russification by encouraging Russians and other Russian-speaking ethnic groups of USSR to settle in the Baltic Republics. According to Soviet law, the three local languages (Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian) had the status of official languages in the three respective Republics and were used in schools and local administrative apparatus[citation needed] in parallel with Russian. However, as the Russian-speaking settlers from USSR formed an ever larger part of the population and typically were neither encouraged nor motivated to learn the local language, almost everybody had to learn Russian to some extent and use it whenever communicating with Russian-speakers in daily life."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states...s_and_languages

Your reading comprehension problems are in evidence once again, I added emphasis to my quote and the Wikipedia extract for your benefit. I was clearly referring to the period when the Baltics were territories of the Russian Empire 1795 – 1918. I already acknowledged people who lived there stated to learn Russian after 1944. But your own source said the localanguages continued to be used in the schools and the natives “had to learn Russian to some extent” not that they spoke it like natives. Marina and a KGB official said they spoke like foreigners, other Russians said LHO's Russian was not good. All you have is the opinion of a crazy man who’d not been to Russia for 40 years when he met LHO and was born in a region where most people spoke a dialect.

One of the main - but by no means the only tell-tale sign Oswald had Asperger's is that people with AS are not only often interested in foreign languages, they have the extraordinary ability to master foreign languages and speak them like a native.

Edited by Len Colby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oswald did display I) and III) but so does just about every socially akward underachiever not so sure about II)

Atta boy, Len. We're well on the way to agreement.

A correct diagnosis requires at least two boxes tick under (I)

He had trouble with direct eye contact.

He failed to develop peer relationships

Lack of spontenuity

Lack of emotional reciprocity

That's 4.

(III) Requires that the impairment has a significantimpact in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

Many people described his as "odd" which had a significant impact on his social functioning.

Not sure about II? Let me help you out here... it requires a restricted repetitive & stereotyped pattern of behavior, interests and activities as manifested in at least on of the areas noted.

the first one fits the bill (encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus)

His focus at 15 on the USMC manual - and if the legend is to be believed - on Marxism simultenous to the Marine manual - than that alone clearly qualifies. In fact, his focus on philosophy, politics and economics may all qualify him in this category.

Let's continue...

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

This does not appear to have been a problem, as far as can be told from the records.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

Ditto

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."

Nope. No other development disorder or schizophrenia diagnosed while he was alive.

All of the boxes are ticked, are they not?

"Maybe Len can point to any records which show that Oswald was diagnosed with Dyslexia by a health professional or (or even a teacher!) while he was alive?"

Strawman as I never said or implied he was dyslexic let alone that he’d been diagnosed “Dyslexia by a health professional or (or even a teacher!) while he was alive”

No. But the absense of such a diagnosis is essential to a diagnosis of Asperger's. And apart from that, your replies have strongly suggested you have great faith in the medical profession. Do you, or do you not, believe Dr Rome's post-mortem diagnosis of dyslexia - and if so - given your great faith in the medical profession - how was it missed by experts who would have been looking for it in Youth House?

Okay - so what "special considerations" have I tried to introduce - with or without criticism of such considerations? You're just clutching at straw here aren't you, Len?

The one about his memory is one I imagine if I could be bothered to do further research I could dig up others.

You're going to have to explain how my addressing the issue of memory - which is mentioned in indicators of adult dyslexia - becomes a "special consideration"!

LOL YOU leave ME stumped? That is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future unless I suffer major head trauma. I cited a direct quote of a statement Marina made to Posner as quoted by Retizes the same quote also appears in Russo . I didn’t cite any other parts of the Retizes’ review of JFK.

It was used by Reitzes as part of a movie review, was it not? Even if you want to remove it out of that context, in the end, it is STILL not primary evidence as you claimed. And I think you fully realise that

BS witness statements are witness statements no matter where they appear, Marina told the HSCA the same thing she told Posner:

Yes, but you are avoiding the fact that they both are prolific users of various nefarious writing techniques, including special pleadings. And McAdams actually freely admits he is a propagandist. That you ignore the serious (and deliberate) breaches in research methodology they indulge in while trying desparately to find holes in mine does not help your credibility. Attack my methods as much as you want; but in ignoring the faults of McAdams and Reitzes at the same time, your real purpose becomes transparent.

Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.

Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?

Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?

Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

The important point is that he did not speak it with an American accent. That he spoke with a regional accent is does not negate anything. He spoke it like a native of the Soviet Bloc - and Marina conceded as much (She did not realise he was American - he sounded like he was a native of a Soviet Bloc country is in essence, what she said). Youy trying to pick a nit from that is just silly.

Edited by Greg Parker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oswald did display I) and III) but so does just about every socially awkward underachiever not so sure about II)

Atta boy, Len. We're well on the way to agreement.

A correct diagnosis requires at least two boxes tick under (I)

He had trouble with direct eye contact.

He failed to develop peer relationships

Lack of spontenuity

Lack of emotional reciprocity

That's 4.

(III) Requires that the impairment has a significant impact in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

Many people described his as "odd" which had a significant impact on his social functioning.

Not sure about II? Let me help you out here... it requires a restricted repetitive & stereotyped pattern of behavior, interests and activities as manifested in at least one of the areas noted.

the first one fits the bill (encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus)

His focus at 15 on the USMC manual - and if the legend is to be believed - on Marxism simultenous to the Marine manual - than that alone clearly qualifies. In fact, his focus on philosophy, politics and economics may all qualify him in this category.

His interest in “philosophy, politics and economics” was abnormal? How so? I know lots of people who were or are “fanatic” fans of sports teams or rock groups/ singers. Do my friends who spent 2 days each way going to and from Rio on the bus and an additional two days camping out on Copacabana beach to get a good spot so they could see the washed up Rolling Stones in a 2006 show that was broadcast live have Aspergers? What about my friend who knew every song and poem Jim Morrison wrote by heart (or so he said)? Would a shrink define LHO memorizing the Marine manual or his interested in Marxism as “abnormal either in intensity or focus”? Sorry this seems to be what differentiates people with Aspergers from everyday misfit loners.

Let's continue...

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

This does not appear to have been a problem, as far as can be told from the records.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

Ditto

Funny how you repeat the exact same criteria twice and say ditto for the 2nd, is that a tactic for trying to make you case appear stronger than it is?

LOL YOU leave ME stumped? That is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future unless I suffer major head trauma. I cited a direct quote of a statement Marina made to Posner as quoted by Retizes the same quote also appears in Russo . I didn’t cite any other parts of the Retizes’ review of JFK.

It was used by Reitzes as part of a movie review, was it not? Even if you want to remove it out of that context, in the end, it is STILL not primary evidence as you claimed. And I think you fully realise that

I have no interest in continuing this pointless semantic battle, Marina’s statement to the Warren Commission, testimony to the HSCA and interview with Posner are all primary evidence, you can split hairs if you wish as classify and excerpt of the latter as quoted by Retizes and Russo (in separate works) as secondary or tertiary.

BS witness statements are witness statements no matter where they appear, Marina told the HSCA the same thing she told Posner:

Yes, but you are avoiding the fact that they both are prolific users of various nefarious writing techniques, including special pleadings. And McAdams actually freely admits he is a propagandist.

Irrelevant especially regarding McAdams as all I did was cite a WC exhibit he hosted. That was Marina’s statement to the Commission the exact same one is on other sites. Even regarding Retizes your objections are irrelevant, the quote does appear in Posner’s book. You can object about him and I’ll agree with you most of the time but 17 years after the book came out she has yet to claim she was misquoted and she had told the HSCA the same thing years earlier.

Posner: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

That you ignore the serious (and deliberate) breaches in research methodology they indulge in while trying desparately to find holes in mine does not help your credibility. Attack my methods as much as you want; but in ignoring the faults of McAdams and Reitzes at the same time, your real purpose becomes transparent.

I’m not concerned with the problems with their research on this thread because it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, we are dealing with direct quotes. You are desperately trying to divert attention from the fact Marina has repeatedly contradicted you.

Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.

Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?

Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?

Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

The important point is that he did not speak it with an American accent. That he spoke with a regional accent is does not negate anything. He spoke it like a native of the Soviet Bloc - and Marina conceded as much (She did not realise he was American - he sounded like he was a native of a Soviet Bloc country is in essence, what she said). Youy trying to pick a nit from that is just silly.

Your source said “When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.” Obviously the author meant a native of where the language is the mother tongue, not a native of a neighboring country where it is commonly spoken as a second language. But Marina never said his accent was Baltic only that it was foreign, not that of a native speaker. Since he spoke well she assumed he came from the USSR and guessed the Baltics. Him being at a factory dance in the winter at the height of the Cold War indubitably added to that impression. Meeting an American, or anyone from beyond the Iron Curtain, would be totally unexpected. And do you really think she’d recognized American accented Russian if she’d heard it? Where would she have heard Americans speaking reasonably proficient Russian before? She met someone speaking Russian fairly well at a factory dance in the winter of 1961 so she assumed he was from the USSR but could tell he wasn't Russian.

She repeatedly said he spoke like a non native speaker

  • As paraphrased in the 201 file, she thought he came from one of the Baltic countries because "his Russian, although good, bore a definite accent."
  • In her declaration to the WC “I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent.”
  • To the HSCA,“People from other states speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages”
  • To Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well,"

Don’t forget that a KGB agent confirmed that people from the Balics typically did not speak Russian at all like native speakers. Even Oswald acknowledged he had an accent. He was married April 30, 1961 but wrote down the date as the nonexistent April 31 in his diary (which seems pretty dyslexic to me). He wrote: “two of Marinas girl friends act as bridesmaids. We are married. At her aunts home we have a dinner reception for about 20 friends and neighbors who wish us happiness (in spite of my origin and accent).”

http://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30

http://books.google.com/books?id=fytA0SUTDPUC&pg=PA523

Starting in 1992 some of Oswald’s KGB files were made public leading to a series of articles by Sergei Mostovshchikov in Izvestia which “were translated by the Russian Press Digest for publication outside the former Soviet Union”. Agents interviewed his friends and neighbors:

[in March or April 1961] “Oswald's neighbors, Maya and Semyon Gertsovich, who lived on the floor above him recall their first encounter with the American when they accidentally flooded his apartment. Although
Oswald spoke Russian very poorly
, he raised a scandal and threatened to tell the factory authorities about the incident.”

[...]

Ernst Titovetz, one of Lee Harvey's closest friends… [was] not surprised at all when Oswald decided to return to the United States.

[...]

Titovetz recalls that it was very important for Oswald to be able to converse with someone in his native language, for
he was
never
very good at learning Russian
. Titovetz, too, was quite eager to speak English to a real American, so they saw a lot of each other. In fact,Titovetz viewed Oswald as a "talking machine" or an "English language textbook on legs." He even recorded Oswald's voice on tape in order to listen and analyze the American way of speaking.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/izvestia.txt

You will of course complain about the site the articles were posted on but Russo quoted people who said the same thing and the same Izvestia article was cited by Russo and Diane Holloway author of “The Mind of Oswald” on different matters

http://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA53

http://books.google.com/books?id=2RL7pEB-wkAC&pg=PA233

Posner claims that Titovets told him Oswald’s Russian was "rather inadequate, only several hundred words, really nothing”.

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

So in addition to Marina we have at least three other Russians who knew Oswald well over a year after he moved to their country who said he spoke poorly, Titovets, at least one of the Gertsoviches (Posner says it was Maya) and Ella Germann (his 1st Russian girlfriend). We also have his Russian teacher who it is not clear when last had contact with LHO who said "I can't say that he was very good at languages. So thought he spent many hours the result was not good " and we have various people who were in contact with him in his 1st 2 months who said his Russian was very bad. On the other hand you have the declaration of some in and out of mental hospitals who'd last been in Russia as a child 40 years before meeting LHO and admitted he himself spoke poorly. Even then you have to spin DeM's declaration to fit your theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My most recent replies in blue

Greg

His focus at 15 on the USMC manual - and if the legend is to be believed - on Marxism simultenous to the Marine manual - than that alone clearly qualifies. In fact, his focus on philosophy, politics and economics may all qualify him in this category.

Len

His interest in “philosophy, politics and economics” was abnormal? How so? I know lots of people who were or are “fanatic” fans of sports teams or rock groups/ singers. Do my friends who spent 2 days each way going to and from Rio on the bus and an additional two days camping out on Copacabana beach to get a good spot so they could see the washed up Rolling Stones in a 2006 show that was broadcast live have Aspergers?

Greg

I have no idea, Len. If you know them well enough, you can use the same tool I did to make up your own mind. You can’t just pluck one thing out and make a determination just on that – as I’m sure you are well aware. But for you, this is not about finding of facts, it’s about protecting the status quo. Ho hum.

Len

What about my friend who knew every song and poem Jim Morrison wrote by heart (or so he said)? Would a shrink define LHO memorizing the Marine manual or his interested in Marxism as “abnormal either in intensity or focus”? Sorry this seems to be what differentiates people with Aspergers from everyday misfit loners.

]“Misfit loners” is a meaningless lay term. They all have underlying medical conditions or personality disorders. If you believe he was a “misfit loner” it only indicates you haven’t defined what condition or disorder he had.

Len

Funny how you repeat the exact same criteria twice and say ditto for the 2nd, is that a tactic for trying to make you case appear stronger than it is?

Greg

Funny how you look for the most “sinister” explanation – but only when it comes to how a conspiracy theory develops. I think most reasonable people would recognise it as a simple copy and paste error – especially those who have read the post at my site – which I had presumed you had done since you are arguing against it. This just shows again, the depths you are willing to explore in your quest. Ho hum.

Here is what the second part should have been:

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

Len

LOL YOU leave ME stumped? That is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future unless I suffer major head trauma. I cited a direct quote of a statement Marina made to Posner as quoted by Retizes the same quote also appears in Russo . I didn’t cite any other parts of the Retizes’ review of JFK.

Greg

It was used by Reitzes as part of a movie review, was it not? Even if you want to remove it out of that context, in the end, it is STILL not primary evidence as you claimed. And I think you fully realise that

Len

I have no interest in continuing this pointless semantic battle, Marina’s statement to the Warren Commission, testimony to the HSCA and interview with Posner are all primary evidence, you can split hairs if you wish as classify and excerpt of the latter as quoted by Retizes and Russo (in separate works) as secondary or tertiary.

Greg

There are no semantics at play here. An interview with an author can in no way, be considered “primary evidence”. If you want an example of semantics, look no further than your own attempts to quibble over Oswald’s Russian accent.

Greg

Yes, but you are avoiding the fact that they both are prolific users of various nefarious writing techniques, including special pleadings. And McAdams actually freely admits he is a propagandist.

Len

Irrelevant especially regarding McAdams as all I did was cite a WC exhibit he hosted. That was Marina’s statement to the Commission the exact same one is on other sites. Even regarding Retizes your objections are irrelevant, the quote does appear in Posner’s book. You can object about him and I’ll agree with you most of the time but 17 years after the book came out she has yet to claim she was misquoted and she had told the HSCA the same thing years earlier.

Posner: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

Greg

I’d find more merit in your argument if you did not ( a ) use sources from Lone nut sites exclusively and ( b ) spent some of your time here acknowledging posts putting up strong evidence and good arguments on the conspiracy side. You only appear in threads you think you can attack. Ho hum.

Greg

That you ignore the serious (and deliberate) breaches in research methodology they indulge in while trying desparately to find holes in mine does not help your credibility. Attack my methods as much as you want; but in ignoring the faults of McAdams and Reitzes at the same time, your real purpose becomes transparent.

Len

I’m not concerned with the problems with their research on this thread because it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, we are dealing with direct quotes. You are desperately trying to divert attention from the fact Marina has repeatedly contradicted you.

Greg

She has not contradicted me at all. That is your semantics. She has contradicted herself however at various times.

Len

Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.

Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?

Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?

Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

Greg

The important point is that he did not speak it with an American accent. That he spoke with a regional accent is does not negate anything. He spoke it like a native of the Soviet Bloc - and Marina conceded as much (She did not realise he was American - he sounded like he was a native of a Soviet Bloc country is in essence, what she said). Youy trying to pick a nit from that is just silly.

Len

Your source said “When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.” Obviously the author meant a native of where the language is the mother tongue, not a native of a neighboring country where it is commonly spoken as a second language. But Marina never said his accent was Baltic only that it was foreign, not that of a native speaker. Since he spoke well she assumed he came from the USSR and guessed the Baltics. Him being at a factory dance in the winter at the height of the Cold War indubitably added to that impression. Meeting an American, or anyone from beyond the Iron Curtain, would be totally unexpected. And do you really think she’d recognized American accented Russian if she’d heard it? Where would she have heard Americans speaking reasonably proficient Russian before? She met someone speaking Russian fairly well at a factory dance in the winter of 1961 so she assumed he was from the USSR but could tell he wasn't Russian.

She repeatedly said he spoke like a non native speaker

• As paraphrased in the 201 file, she thought he came from one of the Baltic countries because "his Russian, although good, bore a definite accent."

• In her declaration to the WC “I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent.”

• To the HSCA,“People from other states speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages”

• To Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well,"

Greg

I now have a source which destroys all of the above. But thanks for playing.

Don’t forget that a KGB agent confirmed that people from the Balics typically did not speak Russian at all like native speakers. Even Oswald acknowledged he had an accent. He was married April 30, 1961 but wrote down the date as the nonexistent April 31 in his diary (which seems pretty dyslexic to me).

Which just shows your ignorance on the subject…

He wrote: “two of Marinas girl friends act as bridesmaids. We are married. At her aunts home we have a dinner reception for about 20 friends and neighbors who wish us happiness (in spite of my origin and accent).”

http://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30

http://books.google.com/books?id=fytA0SUTDPUC&pg=PA523

Starting in 1992 some of Oswald’s KGB files were made public leading to a series of articles by Sergei Mostovshchikov in Izvestia which “were translated by the Russian Press Digest for publication outside the former Soviet Union”. Agents interviewed his friends and neighbors:

[in March or April 1961] “Oswald's neighbors, Maya and Semyon Gertsovich, who lived on the floor above him recall their first encounter with the American when they accidentally flooded his apartment. Although Oswald spoke Russian very poorly, he raised a scandal and threatened to tell the factory authorities about the incident.”

[...]

Ernst Titovetz, one of Lee Harvey's closest friends… [was] not surprised at all when Oswald decided to return to the United States.

[...]

Titovetz recalls that it was very important for Oswald to be able to converse with someone in his native language, for he was never very good at learning Russian. Titovetz, too, was quite eager to speak English to a real American, so they saw a lot of each other. In fact,Titovetz viewed Oswald as a "talking machine" or an "English language textbook on legs." He even recorded Oswald's voice on tape in order to listen and analyze the American way of speaking.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/izvestia.txt

You will of course complain about the site the articles were posted on but Russo quoted people who said the same thing and the same Izvestia article was cited by Russo and Diane Holloway author of “The Mind of Oswald” on different matters

http://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA53

Greg

I think it likely someone (maybe Marina?) pointed out his slight Baltic accent. Ho hum.

Len

http://books.google.com/books?id=2RL7pEB-wkAC&pg=PA233

Posner claims that Titovets told him Oswald’s Russian was "rather inadequate, only several hundred words, really nothing”.

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

Greg

And the Botkin Hospital reported he spoke NO Russian, and used an interpreter with him.

www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=98144&relPageId=40

This is typical spycraft – pretend you don’t speak the local lingo. But look at the bright side: mentioning this will make you once again, the darling of the Two Oswald's crowd who believe this lack of ability is evidence of a different entity. :ice

Len

So in addition to Marina we have at least three other Russians who knew Oswald well over a year after he moved to their country who said he spoke poorly, Titovets, at least one of the Gertsoviches (Posner says it was Maya) and Ella Germann (his 1st Russian girlfriend). We also have his Russian teacher who it is not clear when last had contact with LHO who said "I can't say that he was very good at languages. So thought he spent many hours the result was not good " and we have various people who were in contact with him in his 1st 2 months who said his Russian was very bad. On the other hand you have the declaration of some in and out of mental hospitals who'd last been in Russia as a child 40 years before meeting LHO and admitted he himself spoke poorly. Even then you have to spin DeM's declaration to fit your theory.

Greg

There was no spin involved, and DeM was not “in and out of mental hospitals”. That, dear Len, is YOUR spin on an intelligent man who may have suffered depression late in life – and then only AFTER writing about Oswald. In any case, depression is not known to cause people to make up lies. If that were the case, Marina may well have been the most depressed person on earth.

What you have (apart from Marina) is a bunch of people Oswald hid his Russian ability from. Skip forward to the States and you not only have DeM – you have Gregory, who thought Oswald had the ability to be an interpreter.

Edited by Greg Parker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My most recent replies in blue

Greg

His focus at 15 on the USMC manual - and if the legend is to be believed - on Marxism simultenous to the Marine manual - than that alone clearly qualifies. In fact, his focus on philosophy, politics and economics may all qualify him in this category.

Len

His interest in “philosophy, politics and economics” was abnormal? How so? I know lots of people who were or are “fanatic” fans of sports teams or rock groups/ singers. Do my friends who spent 2 days each way going to and from Rio on the bus and an additional two days camping out on Copacabana beach to get a good spot so they could see the washed up Rolling Stones in a 2006 show that was broadcast live have Aspergers?

Greg

I have no idea, Len. If you know them well enough, you can use the same tool I did to make up your own mind. You can’t just pluck one thing out and make a determination just on that – as I’m sure you are well aware. But for you, this is not about finding of facts, it’s about protecting the status quo. Ho hum.

The point is the evidence that LHO met the following criteria for Aspergers is lacking:

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

( A ) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

Len

What about my friend who knew every song and poem Jim Morrison wrote by heart (or so he said)? Would a shrink define LHO memorizing the Marine manual or his interested in Marxism as “abnormal either in intensity or focus”? Sorry this seems to be what differentiates people with Aspergers from everyday misfit loners.

]“Misfit loners” is a meaningless lay term. They all have underlying medical conditions or personality disorders. If you believe he was a “misfit loner” it only indicates you haven’t defined what condition or disorder he had.

Dr. Parker continues to wave his hand

Len

LOL YOU leave ME stumped? That is unlikely to happen anytime in the near future unless I suffer major head trauma. I cited a direct quote of a statement Marina made to Posner as quoted by Retizes the same quote also appears in Russo . I didn’t cite any other parts of the Retizes’ review of JFK.

Greg

It was used by Reitzes as part of a movie review, was it not? Even if you want to remove it out of that context, in the end, it is STILL not primary evidence as you claimed. And I think you fully realise that

Len

I have no interest in continuing this pointless semantic battle, Marina’s statement to the Warren Commission, testimony to the HSCA and interview with Posner are all primary evidence, you can split hairs if you wish as classify and excerpt of the latter as quoted by Retizes and Russo (in separate works) as secondary or tertiary.

Greg

There are no semantics at play here. An interview with an author can in no way, be considered “primary evidence”.

???? You truly are confused; see if you can dig up backing for this risibly bizarre claim. Note all my citations are from university websites

What are primary and secondary sources?

A note on terminology: many researchers distinguish between primary and secondary sources of evidence (in this case, "primary" means "first" or "original," not "most important").
Primary sources include original documents, photographs, interviews
, and so forth. Secondary sources present information that has already been processed or interpreted by someone else. For example, if you are writing a paper about the movie "The Matrix," the movie itself,
an interview with the director, and production photos could serve as primary sources of evidence.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/evidence_use.html

Primary evidence used in paragraph:

• Speech by Stalin

• Telegram from Kennan, American Ambassador

• Speech by Churchill

Interview by Stalin

http://www.monash.edu.au/lls/llonline/writ...story/2.1.3.xml

"
Primary evidence records the actual words of someone who participated in or witnessed the events described
.....Secondary evidence records the findings of someone who did not observe the event but who investigated primary evidence." [Jules R. Benjamin, A Student's Guide to History, 6th edition, (NY: St. Martin's Press, 1994), p. 7]

Primary evidence can include newspapers, diaries, letters, interviews,
speeches, laws, other official statements, and works written by individuals with first-hand knowledge of an event. When in doubt, check with your professor!

http://lib.colostate.edu/research/history/...arysources.html

Real research means using primary sources.

[…]

…say you want to write about how conceptions of national identity have changed in Britain since the 1980s. In this case, you might examine the speeches of British political leaders, editorials in major British newspapers, and voting support for the Scottish National Party or other regional parties.
You might also arrange an interview with an expert in the field: a noted scholar, a British government representative, a prominent journalist.

The point about primary sources is that they take you as close as possible to where the action is—the real, on-the-ground, rubber-meets-the-road facts from which you will construct your interpretive argument. There are, however, gradations of primary evidence.
The best sources are those in original languages that are linked to persons directly involved in the event or development that you are researching.
Next are the same sources translated into other languages. Then come sources that are studies of or otherwise refer to direct experience. In your research, you should endeavor to get as close as possible to the events or phenomena you are studying. But, of course,
no one can speak every language and interview every participant in a political or social event.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/kingch/...earch_Paper.htm

GREG:“If you want an example of semantics, look no further than your own attempts to quibble over Oswald’s Russian accent.”

Ridiculous your source said people with Aspergers commonly speak foreign languages without one every Russian speaker who knew LHO said he spoke the language poorly or had a foreign one

Greg

Yes, but you are avoiding the fact that they both are prolific users of various nefarious writing techniques, including special pleadings. And McAdams actually freely admits he is a propagandist.

Len

Irrelevant especially regarding McAdams as all I did was cite a WC exhibit he hosted. That was Marina’s statement to the Commission the exact same one is on other sites. Even regarding Retizes your objections are irrelevant, the quote does appear in Posner’s book. You can object about him and I’ll agree with you most of the time but 17 years after the book came out she has yet to claim she was misquoted and she had told the HSCA the same thing years earlier.

Posner: http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

Greg

I’d find more merit in your argument if you did not ( a ) use sources from Lone nut sites exclusively and ( b ) spent some of your time here acknowledging posts putting up strong evidence and good arguments on the conspiracy side. You only appear in threads you think you can attack. Ho hum.

Irrelevant to the question at hand, I’m citing witness statements and other primary evidence hosted on their sites

Greg

That you ignore the serious (and deliberate) breaches in research methodology they indulge in while trying desparately to find holes in mine does not help your credibility. Attack my methods as much as you want; but in ignoring the faults of McAdams and Reitzes at the same time, your real purpose becomes transparent.

Len

I’m not concerned with the problems with their research on this thread because it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, we are dealing with direct quotes. You are desperately trying to divert attention from the fact Marina has repeatedly contradicted you.

Greg

She has not contradicted me at all. That is your semantics. She has contradicted herself however at various times.

Of course she contradicted you; she like every Russian who spoke to him said he did NOT speak like a native speaker. You apparently missed the irony of you claiming she’s not credible after citing her.

Len

Mrs. PORTER. Yes. He spoke with accent so I assumed he was maybe from another state, which is customary in Russia. People from other states do speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages.

Mr. McDONALD. So when you say another state, you mean another Russian state?

Mrs. PORTER. Yes, like Estonia, Lithuania, something like that.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you suspect at all that he was an American?

Mrs. PORTER. No, not at all.

Greg

The important point is that he did not speak it with an American accent. That he spoke with a regional accent is does not negate anything. He spoke it like a native of the Soviet Bloc - and Marina conceded as much (She did not realise he was American - he sounded like he was a native of a Soviet Bloc country is in essence, what she said). Youy trying to pick a nit from that is just silly.

Len

Your source said “When a person with Asperger’s Syndrome learns a foreign language, there can be a remarkable ability to pronounce the words as spoken by a native speaker.” Obviously the author meant a native of where the language is the mother tongue, not a native of a neighboring country where it is commonly spoken as a second language. But Marina never said his accent was Baltic only that it was foreign, not that of a native speaker. Since he spoke well she assumed he came from the USSR and guessed the Baltics. Him being at a factory dance in the winter at the height of the Cold War indubitably added to that impression. Meeting an American, or anyone from beyond the Iron Curtain, would be totally unexpected. And do you really think she’d recognized American accented Russian if she’d heard it? Where would she have heard Americans speaking reasonably proficient Russian before? She met someone speaking Russian fairly well at a factory dance in the winter of 1961 so she assumed he was from the USSR but could tell he wasn't Russian.

She repeatedly said he spoke like a non native speaker

• As paraphrased in the 201 file, she thought he came from one of the Baltic countries because "his Russian, although good, bore a definite accent."

• In her declaration to the WC “I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent.”

• To the HSCA,“People from other states speak with accents because they do not speak Russian. They speak different languages”

• To Posner people from the Baltics "don't speak Russian very well,"

Greg

I now have a source which destroys all of the above. But thanks for playing.

Then by all means quote him or her. If you were referring to your “new Latvian friend” his comments did nothing of the source he never said that people from the Baltics speak like native speakers let alone that they did in the late 50’s early 60’s. He even said “I know Russian good enough” not that he was fluent and noted Estonians can’t pronounce certain Russian syllables correctly, while says Lithuanians and Latvians can he never said they can pronounce them the same way Russians do.

He also wrote “I do not think Marina in 1960 could be expert able to detect accents of people while they are speaking Russian, especially, if she had not been in Baltics herself” which corresponds to my point that “But Marina never said his accent was Baltic only that it was foreign, not that of a native speaker. Since he spoke well she assumed he came from the USSR and guessed the Baltics.”

Don’t forget that a KGB agent confirmed that people from the Balics typically did not speak Russian at all like native speakers. Even Oswald acknowledged he had an accent. He was married April 30, 1961 but wrote down the date as the nonexistent April 31 in his diary (which seems pretty dyslexic to me).

Which just shows your ignorance on the subject…

He wrote: “two of Marinas girl friends act as bridesmaids. We are married. At her aunts home we have a dinner reception for about 20 friends and neighbors who wish us happiness (in spite of my origin and accent).”

http://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30

http://books.google.com/books?id=fytA0SUTDPUC&pg=PA523

Starting in 1992 some of Oswald’s KGB files were made public leading to a series of articles by Sergei Mostovshchikov in Izvestia which “were translated by the Russian Press Digest for publication outside the former Soviet Union”. Agents interviewed his friends and neighbors:

[in March or April 1961] “Oswald's neighbors, Maya and Semyon Gertsovich, who lived on the floor above him recall their first encounter with the American when they accidentally flooded his apartment. Although Oswald spoke Russian very poorly, he raised a scandal and threatened to tell the factory authorities about the incident.”

[...]

Ernst Titovetz, one of Lee Harvey's closest friends… [was] not surprised at all when Oswald decided to return to the United States.

[...]

Titovetz recalls that it was very important for Oswald to be able to converse with someone in his native language, for he was never very good at learning Russian. Titovetz, too, was quite eager to speak English to a real American, so they saw a lot of each other. In fact,Titovetz viewed Oswald as a "talking machine" or an "English language textbook on legs." He even recorded Oswald's voice on tape in order to listen and analyze the American way of speaking.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/izvestia.txt

You will of course complain about the site the articles were posted on but Russo quoted people who said the same thing and the same Izvestia article was cited by Russo and Diane Holloway author of “The Mind of Oswald” on different matters

http://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA53

Greg

I think it likely someone (maybe Marina?) pointed out his slight Baltic accent. Ho hum.

I have no idea why you are driving at but no one ever identified his accent as being Baltic and the only person who said it was “slight” was mentally disturbed, probably grew up speaking a dialect, had not been in Russia for 40 years when he met LHO, admitted that his Russian was degraded and years earlier describe the accent as “foreign”.

Len

http://books.google.com/books?id=2RL7pEB-wkAC&pg=PA233

Posner claims that Titovets told him Oswald’s Russian was "rather inadequate, only several hundred words, really nothing”.

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-P...ader_1400034620

Greg

And the Botkin Hospital reported he spoke NO Russian, and used an interpreter with him.

www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=98144&relPageId=40

This is typical spycraft – pretend you don’t speak the local lingo. But look at the bright side: mentioning this will make you once again, the darling of the Two Oswald's crowd who believe this lack of ability is evidence of a different entity. :o

Oh yeah Ozzie was a deep cover spy who went to the USSR to penetrate their TV industry because Russian TV’s were so much more technologically advanced than western ones that it was a strategic advantage for the Reds. AFAIK there in no documentary of witness evidence he was a spy.

All you’ve got is speculation, speculation that he was a spy, speculation that he was pretending not to speak Russian (or later not speak it well) and speculation that “This is typical spycraft”. Oswald must have been quite the actor because he fooled a Russian teacher who later became a high ranking KGB official, the upstairs neighbors, one of closest friends and his first girlfriend who he proposed marriage to and according to his diary was passionately in love with. This in no way supports the 2 Oswalds stupidity because no one said he spoke like a native speaker.

Len

So in addition to Marina we have at least three other Russians who knew Oswald well over a year after he moved to their country who said he spoke poorly, Titovets, at least one of the Gertsoviches (Posner says it was Maya) and Ella Germann (his 1st Russian girlfriend). We also have his Russian teacher who it is not clear when last had contact with LHO who said "I can't say that he was very good at languages. So thought he spent many hours the result was not good " and we have various people who were in contact with him in his 1st 2 months who said his Russian was very bad. On the other hand you have the declaration of some in and out of mental hospitals who'd last been in Russia as a child 40 years before meeting LHO and admitted he himself spoke poorly. Even then you have to spin DeM's declaration to fit your theory.

Greg

There was no spin involved, and DeM was not “in and out of mental hospitals”. That, dear Len, is YOUR spin on an intelligent man who may have suffered depression late in life – and then only AFTER writing about Oswald. In any case, depression is not known to cause people to make up lies.

How did you determine he wrote “I’m a Patsy, I’m a Patsy” before his mental troubles? According to three people close to him they started years earlier. He first met Oswald in September 1962 and said he was writing it “over fourteen years”, so the manuscript couldn’t have been written much before DeM’s March 1977 suicide. The suicide was investigated by Det. Thomas Neighbors of the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office. He interviewed DeM’s widow:

“She stated that she has been married to the victim for the past twenty-one years and noted that over the past several years he has been acting in an "insane manner". He constantly was in fear of what he termed the "Jewish Mafia" and the FBI, but she felt that his fears were groundless. She, personally, in all her years of marriage to the victim, had never witnessed anything which would lend credence to any of her husband's fears. On the 9 November, 1976, Mrs. deMohrenschildt signed commitment papers in Dallas County, Texas, to have her husband placed in a mental home for treatment. In the affidavit she stated that the victim suffered from depression, heard voices, saw visions and believed that the FBI and the Jewish Mafia were persecuting him. She noted that he was, at times, physically violent and has beaten her to the point that several of her ribs were broken and several teeth damaged. She went on to say in the affidavit that the victim had attempted suicide four times in 1976 by slashing his wrists, trying to drown himself in the bath tub, and twice taking overdoses of medicine. The victim was confined in a state mental institution for only three months as a result of Mrs. deMohrenschildt's efforts and was judged to be harmless to himself and to others and was released.”

He also spoke to DeM’s daughter

“She denied that her father participated in the assassination of President Kennedy and stated that the has been shadowed with that suspicion since the murder. This, along with other personal problems, disturbed the victim to the point where he made several attempts to take his life, in 1976, and was committed briefly to a mental institution in Texas.”

Det. Neighbors also interviewed the owner of the house where DeM’s killed himself a cousin of his first wife and the adoptive mother of his daughter:

“She could provide no personal speculation about what had driven the victim to his unstable mental condition, but thought that it was not one incident, but the combination of many years of depression and personal fears (most of which were imagined) which brought him to that state.”

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/death2.txt

But I guess “Dr. Parker” understands DeM’s mental state better than his wife, daughter and a long time acquaintance. Technically you were half right he only seems to have been committed once but that probably was before he wrote the manuscript.

“If that were the case, Marina may well have been the most depressed person on earth.”

Cite instances of Marina lying, but once again you can’t simultaneously say she’s not credible when it suits you and then cite her in support of your theory.

“What you have (apart from Marina) is a bunch of people Oswald hid his Russian ability from. Skip forward to the States and you not only have DeM – you have Gregory, who thought Oswald had the ability to be an interpreter”[/color].

When he appeared before the WC closer to the events in question and before he started hearing voices and having paranoid delusions DeM stated “he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian… Remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it.” *

Before you get too excited about the fluency part you have to take into account DeM qualified as being considering “his background and education” and said “he spoke… with a foreign accent” and understand that a foreign language learner can be fluent without native pronounciation and make many mistakes. They can speak at a natural pace (fluency) but make many errors like LHO did which would clearly mark them as a non native. Neither fluency nor accuracy are directly related to speaking without an accent something LHO was unable to do.

* http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w..._Vol9_0117b.htm

Copy and pasteable version of the above: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point is the evidence that LHO met the following criteria for Aspergers is lacking:

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

( A ) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

No. The point here was you trying to play silly games by plucking one thing out and applying that to your friends and then asking if that means they have Asperger's. It was a dishonest ploy and tyou got called on it.

As for Oswald - how many 20 something year olds write political and economic tracts? I'd call that an abonormally intense focus for an uneducated youth.

“Misfit loners” is a meaningless lay term. They all have underlying medical conditions or personality disorders. If you believe he was a “misfit loner” it only indicates you haven’t defined what condition or disorder he had.

Dr. Parker continues to wave his hand

Only to stop you making a git of yourself! Or maybe you can point to the "Misfit Loner" section of a medical book?

Greg

There are no semantics at play here. An interview with an author can in no way, be considered “primary evidence”.

???? You truly are confused; see if you can dig up backing for this risibly bizarre claim. Note all my citations are from university websites

What are primary and secondary sources?

A note on terminology: many researchers distinguish between primary and secondary sources of evidence (in this case, "primary" means "first" or "original," not "most important"). Primary sources include original documents, photographs, interviews, and so forth. Secondary sources present information that has already been processed or interpreted by someone else. For example, if you are writing a paper about the movie "The Matrix," the movie itself, an interview with the director, and production photos could serve as primary sources of evidence.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/evidence_use.html

Primary evidence used in paragraph:

• Speech by Stalin

• Telegram from Kennan, American Ambassador

• Speech by Churchill

• Interview by Stalin

http://www.monash.edu.au/lls/llonline/writ...story/2.1.3.xml

"Primary evidence records the actual words of someone who participated in or witnessed the events described.....Secondary evidence records the findings of someone who did not observe the event but who investigated primary evidence." [Jules R. Benjamin, A Student's Guide to History, 6th edition, (NY: St. Martin's Press, 1994), p. 7]

Primary evidence can include newspapers, diaries, letters, interviews, speeches, laws, other official statements, and works written by individuals with first-hand knowledge of an event. When in doubt, check with your professor!

http://lib.colostate.edu/research/history/...arysources.html

Real research means using primary sources.

[…]

…say you want to write about how conceptions of national identity have changed in Britain since the 1980s. In this case, you might examine the speeches of British political leaders, editorials in major British newspapers, and voting support for the Scottish National Party or other regional parties. You might also arrange an interview with an expert in the field: a noted scholar, a British government representative, a prominent journalist.

The point about primary sources is that they take you as close as possible to where the action is—the real, on-the-ground, rubber-meets-the-road facts from which you will construct your interpretive argument. There are, however, gradations of primary evidence. The best sources are those in original languages that are linked to persons directly involved in the event or development that you are researching. Next are the same sources translated into other languages. Then come sources that are studies of or otherwise refer to direct experience. In your research, you should endeavor to get as close as possible to the events or phenomena you are studying. But, of course, no one can speak every language and interview every participant in a political or social event.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/kingch/...earch_Paper.htm

Nice bait and switch, but I'm not buying. Whenever discussions take place on any JFK forum about evidence - the discussion is NEVER about sources used in research. It is ALWAYS about evidence which can be used in court. Try getting a court to accept Posner's book as exhibit 1. When discussing research, the terms used are "sources" or "cites".

Primary Evidence

According to West's Encyclopedia of American Law, primary evidence is "an authentic document or item that is offered as proof in a lawsuit, as contrasted with a copy of, or substitute for, the original."

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5600841_definiti...y-evidence.html

I think it has come to the stage where it is pointless continuing. For now, you've used up your quota of "techniques", as well as your quota of my patience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point is the evidence that LHO met the following criteria for Aspergers is lacking:

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

( A ) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus

No. The point here was you trying to play silly games by plucking one thing out and applying that to your friends and then asking if that means they have Asperger's. It was a dishonest ploy and tyou got called on it.

As for Oswald - how many 20 something year olds write political and economic tracts? I'd call that an abonormally intense focus for an uneducated youth.

Of course you do but you have a vested interest in staking out such a position, I doubt a mental health professional would agree with you.

Greg

There are no semantics at play here. An interview with an author can in no way, be considered “primary evidence”.

???? You truly are confused; see if you can dig up backing for this risibly bizarre claim. Note all my citations are from university websites

What are primary and secondary sources?

A note on terminology: many researchers distinguish between primary and secondary sources of evidence (in this case, "primary" means "first" or "original," not "most important"). Primary sources include original documents, photographs, interviews, and so forth. Secondary sources present information that has already been processed or interpreted by someone else. For example, if you are writing a paper about the movie "The Matrix," the movie itself, an interview with the director, and production photos could serve as primary sources of evidence.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/evidence_use.html

Primary evidence used in paragraph:

• Speech by Stalin

• Telegram from Kennan, American Ambassador

• Speech by Churchill

• Interview by Stalin

http://www.monash.edu.au/lls/llonline/writ...story/2.1.3.xml

"Primary evidence records the actual words of someone who participated in or witnessed the events described.....Secondary evidence records the findings of someone who did not observe the event but who investigated primary evidence." [Jules R. Benjamin, A Student's Guide to History, 6th edition, (NY: St. Martin's Press, 1994), p. 7]

Primary evidence can include newspapers, diaries, letters, interviews, speeches, laws, other official statements, and works written by individuals with first-hand knowledge of an event. When in doubt, check with your professor!

http://lib.colostate.edu/research/history/...arysources.html

Real research means using primary sources.

[…]

…say you want to write about how conceptions of national identity have changed in Britain since the 1980s. In this case, you might examine the speeches of British political leaders, editorials in major British newspapers, and voting support for the Scottish National Party or other regional parties. You might also arrange an interview with an expert in the field: a noted scholar, a British government representative, a prominent journalist.

The point about primary sources is that they take you as close as possible to where the action is—the real, on-the-ground, rubber-meets-the-road facts from which you will construct your interpretive argument. There are, however, gradations of primary evidence. The best sources are those in original languages that are linked to persons directly involved in the event or development that you are researching. Next are the same sources translated into other languages. Then come sources that are studies of or otherwise refer to direct experience. In your research, you should endeavor to get as close as possible to the events or phenomena you are studying. But, of course, no one can speak every language and interview every participant in a political or social event.

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/kingch/...earch_Paper.htm

Nice bait and switch, but I'm not buying. Whenever discussions take place on any JFK forum about evidence - the discussion is NEVER about sources used in research. It is ALWAYS about evidence which can be used in court. Try getting a court to accept Posner's book as exhibit 1. When discussing research, the terms used are "sources" or "cites".

Primary Evidence

According to West's Encyclopedia of American Law, primary evidence is "an authentic document or item that is offered as proof in a lawsuit, as contrasted with a copy of, or substitute for, the original."

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5600841_definiti...y-evidence.html

You still are continuing to argue over semantics:

3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics

Random House Dictionary,. 2010

3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition 2009

Note: Semantics is commonly used to refer to a trivial point or distinction that revolves around mere words rather than significant issues: “To argue whether the medication killed the patient or contributed to her death is to argue over semantics.”

The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition 2005

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics

Obviously I meant primary evidence in its general rather than its strictly legal sense. And despite your claims to the contrary you have used the word ''evidence" that way repeatedly including on this thread (see examples below) but you preferred to focus on the definition of “primary evidence” and the sites I drew my direct quotes from rather deal with what Marina said in them because it contradicted your silly theory.

Get a clue: "paraphrase" does not mean "made up". It is merely the essence of what was said. If you want to argue they lied about her saying Oswald's Russian was good, please provide
evidence
for it.

Apr 3 2010, 12:03 AM

With Asperger's, I cited the memorizing of the Marine Manual as
evidence
of "specialised fields of interest".

Apr 3 2010, 12:03 AM

You are correct here, and I will make an amendment so that it reads "unknown as to how much he relied on memory; some
evidence
indicates above average memory.

I think it has come to the stage where it is pointless continuing. For now, you've used up your quota of "techniques", as well as your quota of my patience.

What you really mean is that you realize that your case is lost but are too proud to admit it.You hung your case on two “witnesses” Marina and DeM. But you had to spin selected comments they made. The former’s later clarifications of what she said in 1963-4 contradicted you then you bizarrely claimed she was not credible. You focused on what the latter wrote 1976-7 when he was a delusional paranoid but ignored what he said under oath in 1964 when he was still sane and the events were fresher in his memory. You also chose to arbitrarily ignore the observations of 3 – 5 of LHO’s Russian friends and neighbors.

You mentioned Peter Gregory in an earlier post but while his assessment was certainly more positive that of the people Oswald knew in the USSR he said nothing about LHO speaking Russian like a native or without an accent he wrote:

“To whom it may concern,

“Lee Harvey Oswald has a good knowledge of the Russian Language. He acquired this knowledge during his three-year residence in the Soviet Union. "

Edited by Len Colby
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...