Did Harvey return from Russia?

[Jack White]

JVB has made several postings scoffing at the notion of a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM, and that

Harvey was a part of it.

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program. He also managed the Nosenko

affair, in which a Russian "defector" defected to the US, coming to tell that THE KGB HAD NO

OPERATIONAL INTEREST in the defector "Lee Harvey Oswald" (when all indications are that they

were immediately aware of the "false defector" and placed him under full time surveillance and perhaps

more). The HSCA was extremely interested in Nosenko.

At the time of Nosenko's defection, the CIA split into 2 factions...pro-Nosenko and anti-Nosenko. Angleton

believed that Nosenko himself was a false defector, and had him placed in solitary confinement for

several years where he underwent "enhanced interrogation" to "break him". Nosenko could have

potentially exposed Angleton's program, and Angleton wanted to know whether the KGB had substituted

a doppelganger for his false defector. The KGB's Nosenko operation put them in the position of "protesting

too much" to distance the Soviet Union from the assassination.

The question was WHETHER THE LHO WHO RETURNED FROM RUSSIA WAS THE SAME ONE

WHO DEFECTED. Either way, it does NOT materially affect the Harvey and Lee story, but adds an EXTRA

dimension. Either way, it is the one point on which I do not fully agree with Armstrong. I have always

believed that the LHO who returned from Russia was NOT the same LHO who defected. I have always

believed that the Soviets replaced the original defector with one of their own. There is much evidence

to support this. John decided NOT to include this possibility (though he was aware of it) in his book for

several reasons:

1. There was NO documentation for the KGB doing this. John wrote nothing without documentation.

2. A whole book would be needed devoted only to this portion, and he did not have space or time.

3. Even if the original defector was replaced by the KGB, it does not negate the Lee & Harvey documentation;

it only means that someone else was substituted for the original Harvey.

4. It would complicate the story of the original false defector by adding that a false defector had been

replaced by a "double agent"...so was he working for the CIA or the KGB? Since no documentation exists,

this would make the story impossible to tell without speculation and years more of research. He decided

to put his book to bed with only what he could DOCUMENT, with no distracting speculation. I agreed

with his decision...though we both recognized that there perhaps was much more to the story. On the

same grounds, he decided not to do a chapter on Donald O. Norton...because it involved speculation

which, though documented, was not proof. He threw out at least a year of research for lack of TWO SOURCES

of documentation.

If the KGB was interested enough in the false defection to send Nosenko to say that the Soviets were

not interested in LHO, this aspect of the defection is worthy of investigation.

In this thread I will attempt to document some of the evidence that the LHO in Russia was not the same

one who defected. However, this does not mean that the original defector was not the same one who

returned. It is a very confusing story which is unlikely to be conclusive. There are NO records of

what the KGB did concerning LHO's time in Minsk.

I will start with the Ziger sisters. Their father was head of the radio factory in Minsk where LHO

worked. Mr. Ziger acted as an overseer of LHO, and he visited the Ziger home frequently, becoming

well acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters. John Armstrong tracked down

the Ziger sisters, by then living in Argentina. John flew to Argentina to interview them about their

remembrances of LHO. Since they spoke only Russian and Spanish, he hired an interpreter to

help with the interview. He found many interesting things, but perhaps the most interesting was

that the LHO that they knew was VERY SHORT, perhaps about 5'2"! This was very puzzling since

the defector was 5'9" and LHO was once listed in Marine records as 5'11". A photo of the Zigers

with "Lee" shows a very short person. There are other conflicting photos. The possibility exists

that the KGB furnished or tampered with ALL photos of the Russian period. John decided that

he could not depend solely on the word of the Ziger sisters, since no other documentation supported

their stories. He decided correctly that he could not depend solely on photos of dubious provenance

to back up the story told by the sisters. So all of the information provided by the Zigers is not in the book.

I will start with a clipping which John obtained from the Ziger sisters in an Argentina newspaper.

I will follow with other photos from the Russian period which strongly suggest that the LHO

who was in Russia was neither Harvey or Lee.

Jack

[Ron Ecker]

Jack,

Related to the idea that the LHO in Russia was not the defector is an item in another thread that was news to me. When LHO and Marina met at a dance, Marina thought from the way he talked that he was from the Baltics. Did LHO not tell Marina that he was an American? When did she find out? When he decided to go back to America?

[Kathleen Collins]

JVB has made several postings scoffing at the notion of a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM, and that

Harvey was a part of it.

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program. He also managed the Nosenko

affair, in which a Russian "defector" defected to the US, coming to tell that THE KGB HAD NO

OPERATIONAL INTEREST in the defector "Lee Harvey Oswald" (when all indications are that they

were immediately aware of the "false defector" and placed him under full time surveillance and perhaps

more). The HSCA was extremely interested in Nosenko.

At the time of Nosenko's defection, the CIA split into 2 factions...pro-Nosenko and anti-Nosenko. Angleton

believed that Nosenko himself was a false defector, and had him placed in solitary confinement for

several years where he underwent "enhanced interrogation" to "break him". Nosenko could have

potentially exposed Angleton's program, and Angleton wanted to know whether the KGB had substituted

a doppelganger for his false defector. The KGB's Nosenko operation put them in the position of "protesting

too much" to distance the Soviet Union from the assassination.

The question was WHETHER THE LHO WHO RETURNED FROM RUSSIA WAS THE SAME ONE

WHO DEFECTED. Either way, it does NOT materially affect the Harvey and Lee story, but adds an EXTRA

dimension. Either way, it is the one point on which I do not fully agree with Armstrong. I have always

believed that the LHO who returned from Russia was NOT the same LHO who defected. I have always

believed that the Soviets replaced the original defector with one of their own. There is much evidence

to support this. John decided NOT to include this possibility (though he was aware of it) in his book for

several reasons:

1. There was NO documentation for the KGB doing this. John wrote nothing without documentation.

2. A whole book would be needed devoted only to this portion, and he did not have space or time.

3. Even if the original defector was replaced by the KGB, it does not negate the Lee & Harvey documentation;

it only means that someone else was substituted for the original Harvey.

4. It would complicate the story of the original false defector by adding that a false defector had been

replaced by a "double agent"...so was he working for the CIA or the KGB? Since no documentation exists,

this would make the story impossible to tell without speculation and years more of research. He decided

to put his book to bed with only what he could DOCUMENT, with no distracting speculation. I agreed

with his decision...though we both recognized that there perhaps was much more to the story. On the

same grounds, he decided not to do a chapter on Donald O. Norton...because it involved speculation

which, though documented, was not proof. He threw out at least a year of research for lack of TWO SOURCES

of documentation.

If the KGB was interested enough in the false defection to send Nosenko to say that the Soviets were

not interested in LHO, this aspect of the defection is worthy of investigation.

In this thread I will attempt to document some of the evidence that the LHO in Russia was not the same

one who defected. However, this does not mean that the original defector was not the same one who

returned. It is a very confusing story which is unlikely to be conclusive. There are NO records of

what the KGB did concerning LHO's time in Minsk.

I will start with the Ziger sisters. Their father was head of the radio factory in Minsk where LHO

worked. Mr. Ziger acted as an overseer of LHO, and he visited the Ziger home frequently, becoming

well acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters. John Armstrong tracked down

the Ziger sisters, by then living in Argentina. John flew to Argentina to interview them about their

remembrances of LHO. Since they spoke only Russian and Spanish, he hired an interpreter to

help with the interview. He found many interesting things, but perhaps the most interesting was

that the LHO that they knew was VERY SHORT, perhaps about 5'2"! This was very puzzling since

the defector was 5'9" and LHO was once listed in Marine records as 5'11". A photo of the Zigers

with "Lee" shows a very short person. There are other conflicting photos. The possibility exists

that the KGB furnished or tampered with ALL photos of the Russian period. John decided that

he could not depend solely on the word of the Ziger sisters, since no other documentation supported

their stories. He decided correctly that he could not depend solely on photos of dubious provenance

to back up the story told by the sisters. So all of the information provided by the Zigers is not in the book.

I will start with a clipping which John obtained from the Ziger sisters in an Argentina newspaper.

I will follow with other photos from the Russian period which strongly suggest that the LHO

who was in Russia was neither Harvey or Lee.

Jack

I've been saying all along that the one who came back from Russia was Russian Harvey. Listen to the tape available somewhere online of Harvey reading English. When I bring this up, some people will say to me that if I heard all of the tape, I would realize that Harvey was teaching his Russian friend English. Where's the rest of the tape? No one seems to know. And his stupid "brother," Robert, declared about Harvey: "I couldn't believe how much hair he lost!" So we have a dead Harvey, a Robert, an escaped Lee Oswald and the emergence of Donald O. Norton. And so many pctures of men who look like Harvey, but aren't.

There was a man on this forum who could scrape away a photograph of someone's face and find the real face underneath. Where is that man?

Kathy C

Edited March 29, 2010 by Kathleen Collins

[Kathleen Collins]

Jack,

Related to the idea that the LHO in Russia was not the defector is an item in another thread that was news to me. When LHO and Marina met at a dance, Marina thought from the way he talked that he was from the Baltics. Did LHO not tell Marina that he was an American? When did she find out? When he decided to go back to America?

Do the Baltics (Lithuania, etc.) sound like New Yorkers?

[Jack White]

Jack,

Related to the idea that the LHO in Russia was not the defector is an item in another thread that was news to me. When LHO and Marina met at a dance, Marina thought from the way he talked that he was from the Baltics. Did LHO not tell Marina that he was an American? When did she find out? When he decided to go back to America?

Exactly, Ron...that was one of the points I was going to mention.

Jack

[Jack White]

Backing up the claim of the Ziger sisters:

[Jack White]

From the Mary Ferrell website:

[Jack White]

This photo shows the alleged defector (Harvey) in Minsk standing next to Marina, TOE TO TOE.

Marina is about 5'2". The LHO defector was either 5'9" or 5'!!" according to Marine records.

Clearly the man in this photo is barely 4" taller than Marina...not nearly tall enough to be the

defector. He also does not look like either Lee or Harvey. I (and others) have done accurate

studies demonstrating the height discrepancies.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program.

-----

John wrote nothing without documentation.

Jack

Jack, what documentation did Armstrong use to show that Angleton ran such a program?

[Greg Parker]

This photo shows the alleged defector (Harvey) in Minsk standing next to Marina, TOE TO TOE.

Marina is about 5'2". The LHO defector was either 5'9" or 5'!!" according to Marine records.

Clearly the man in this photo is barely 4" taller than Marina...not nearly tall enough to be the

defector. He also does not look like either Lee or Harvey. I (and others) have done accurate

studies demonstrating the height discrepancies.

Jack

What is you position on this analysis of the photo?

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/discrep.htm

Thanks,

greg

[Jack White]

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program.

-----

John wrote nothing without documentation.

Jack

Jack, what documentation did Armstrong use to show that Angleton ran such a program?

I do not know. However, it is widely reported by many researchers:

[Jack White]

This photo shows the alleged defector (Harvey) in Minsk standing next to Marina, TOE TO TOE.

Marina is about 5'2". The LHO defector was either 5'9" or 5'!!" according to Marine records.

Clearly the man in this photo is barely 4" taller than Marina...not nearly tall enough to be the

defector. He also does not look like either Lee or Harvey. I (and others) have done accurate

studies demonstrating the height discrepancies.

Jack

What is you position on this analysis of the photo?

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/discrep.htm

Thanks,

greg

I first analyzed that photo about 40 years ago, and used the analysis in my slide presentation.

I do not have handy MY analysis (it is on unscanned slides now borrowed by Baylor for scanning).

However, I do have the attached analysis by Jerry McLeer, which shows the same thing my

studies show. I stand by McLeer's study:

[Greg Parker]

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program.

-----

John wrote nothing without documentation.

Jack

Jack, what documentation did Armstrong use to show that Angleton ran such a program?

I do not know. However, it is widely reported by many researchers:

Thanks Jack. I would categorise the wide reporting of it in books as no more than speculation. Oswald as lone nut is also widely reported in books...

[Greg Parker]

This photo shows the alleged defector (Harvey) in Minsk standing next to Marina, TOE TO TOE.

Marina is about 5'2". The LHO defector was either 5'9" or 5'!!" according to Marine records.

Clearly the man in this photo is barely 4" taller than Marina...not nearly tall enough to be the

defector. He also does not look like either Lee or Harvey. I (and others) have done accurate

studies demonstrating the height discrepancies.

Jack

What is you position on this analysis of the photo?

http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/discrep.htm

Thanks,

greg

I first analyzed that photo about 40 years ago, and used the analysis in my slide presentation.

I do not have handy MY analysis (it is on unscanned slides now borrowed by Baylor for scanning).

However, I do have the attached analysis by Jerry McLeer, which shows the same thing my

studies show. I stand by McLeer's study:

Jerry is missed. One of the really good ones... I wonder what he would have made of the Wrongski work? I'm not an expert, but it looks convincing to me. I understand neither you nor Jerry would have had Wrongski's work to use when you did your own analysis...

[Jack White]

James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program.

-----

John wrote nothing without documentation.

Jack

Jack, what documentation did Armstrong use to show that Angleton ran such a program?

I do not know. However, it is widely reported by many researchers:

Thanks Jack. I would categorise the wide reporting of it in books as no more than speculation. Oswald as lone nut is also widely reported in books...

I said I do not know. H&L FOOTNOTES all sources.