The three spent rifle cartridges

[Tony Austin]

The three spent rifle cartridges

Anybody notice anything strange about this affidavit by Detective Dhority?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/dhority2.htm

[Tony Austin]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Edited May 28, 2010 by Tony Austin

[Ian Kingsbury]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?.

[Mike Williams]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?.

Ian,

That would be correct.

Tony,

Perhaps he used a different method the second time. I dont know but that is interesting.

[Tony Austin]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?.

Ian,

The official version is that Detective Sims took possession of the three spent cartridges at about 1:20pm and he took them to Captain Fritz at his office later that afternoon. Fritz gave them to Detective Dhority later that evening with instructions to deliver then to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting and to return with one of the three cartridges. Captain Fritz retained the single cartridge until an FBI agent collected it from him a few days later.

However, when Detective Sims testified to the Warren Commission on April 6, 1964 he could not remember taking possession of the cartridges. He testified again on April 8, 1964 and said that Detective Boyd and Captain Fritz had reminded him about taking possession of the cartridges and that he now remembered doing this.

Lieutenant Day testified to the Warren Commission that he could not remember who delivered the three cartridges to him, however, in an affidavid dated May 7, 1964 he stated that Detective Dhority had reminded him that he was the person that made the delivery and so he now remembered that event. He spoke about being asked to check for fingerprints even though he had done this already when he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Day made an affidavid on June 23, 1964 and this time he mentioned that he was asked to "recheck" for fingerprints as if it would be quite routine to be asked to "recheck" for fingerprints on small cartridge cases that had already been checked for prints.

In neither affidavid does he say whether he actually checked for fingerprints on the evening of November 22, 1963.

Day's Affidavids: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day2.htm

With Detective Sims and Lieutenant Day showing difficulty in remembering events you might wonder if Detective Dhority had remembered things correctly. Perhaps Lieutenant Day did not check the Cartridges for prints that evening, he just retained two and gave Dhority one back without doing any processing and Dhority had not remembered this correctly. After all, his affidavid was made 6 months after the event.

However, in the City of Dallas archives Box 3, Folder 5, Item 1 is a report by Dhority. It is not dated but this type of report would have been made soon after the assassination. In this report Dective Dhority makes a more emphatic statement that Lieutenant Day checked the cartridges for fingerprints than he makes in the later affidavid.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

This seems to suggest that Lieutenant Day really did check for fingerprints on the cartridges twice that day.

Tony

Edited May 30, 2010 by Tony Austin

[Ian Kingsbury]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?.

Ian,

The official version is that Detective Sims took possession of the three spent cartridges at about 1:20pm and he took them to Captain Fritz at his office later that afternoon. Fritz gave them to Detective Dhority later that evening with instructions to deliver then to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting and to return with one of the three cartridges. Captain Fritz retained the single cartridge until an FBI agent collected it from him a few days later.

However, when Detective Sims testified to the Warren Commission on April 6, 1964 he could not remember taking possession of the cartridges. He testified again on April 8, 1964 and said that Detective Boyd and Captain Fritz had reminded him about taking possession of the cartridges and that he now remembered doing this.

Lieutenant Day testified to the Warren Commission that he could not remember who delivered the three cartridges to him, however, in an affidavid dated May 7, 1964 he stated that Detective Dhority had reminded him that he was the person that made the delivery and so he now remembered that event. He spoke about being asked to check for fingerprints even though he had done this already when he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Day made an affidavid on June 23, 1964 and this time he mentioned that he was asked to "recheck" for fingerprints as if it would be quite routine to be asked to "recheck" for fingerprints on small cartridge cases that had already been checked for prints.

In neither affidavid does he say whether he actually checked for fingerprints on the evening of November 22, 1963.

Day's Affidavids: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day2.htm

With Detective Sims and Lieutenant Day showing difficulty in remembering events you might wonder if Detective Dhority had remembered things correctly. Perhaps Lieutenant Day did not check the Cartridges for prints that evening, he just retained two and gave Dhority one back without doing any processing and Dhority had not remembered this correctly. After all, his affidavid was made 6 months after the event.

However, in the City of Dallas archives Box 3, Folder 5, Item 1 is a report by Dhority. It is not dated but this type of report would have been made soon after the assassination. In this report Dective Dhority makes a more emphatic statement that Lieutenant Day checked the cartridges for fingerprints than he makes in the later affidavid.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

This seems to suggest that Lieutenant Day really did check for fingerprints on the cartridges twice that day.

Tony

Tony Its only odd if they are the same cartridges, Surely their chain of evidence would establish these facts .An evidence bag or envelope would have to be signed for before fingerprinting or any testing could take place .If they were tested by Day he would sign for possession ,test them, rebag them and send them off to the FBI who in turn would sign possession of them .

Would you agree? .

Ian

[Tony Austin]

OK, no takers.

If you look at the testimony of Lieutentant Day before the Warren Commission, you find on one page:

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page253.php ,about half way down, Day is taking about what he did on the day Kennedy was assassinated when he was on the sixth floor at about 1:20pm. You will see the bit where he says:

"..Were taken. I processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using powder. Mr. Sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. I processed each of the three, did not find fingerprints. As I had finished that, Captain Fritz sent word for me..."

So, Lieutenant Day says he fingerprinted the three spent cartridges on the afternoon of the assassination and Dhority says that Lieutenant Day fingerprinted the three cartridges when he took them to him later that evening.

Now that seems strange to me, why would Lieutenant Day fingerprint the cartridges twice?

Perhaps for the same reason they fingerprinted Oswald twice. Also I thought Fritz kept one in his desk and that only 2 went to the FBI.Maybe he kept the dented/short cycled one?.

Ian,

The official version is that Detective Sims took possession of the three spent cartridges at about 1:20pm and he took them to Captain Fritz at his office later that afternoon. Fritz gave them to Detective Dhority later that evening with instructions to deliver then to Lieutenant Day for fingerprinting and to return with one of the three cartridges. Captain Fritz retained the single cartridge until an FBI agent collected it from him a few days later.

However, when Detective Sims testified to the Warren Commission on April 6, 1964 he could not remember taking possession of the cartridges. He testified again on April 8, 1964 and said that Detective Boyd and Captain Fritz had reminded him about taking possession of the cartridges and that he now remembered doing this.

Lieutenant Day testified to the Warren Commission that he could not remember who delivered the three cartridges to him, however, in an affidavid dated May 7, 1964 he stated that Detective Dhority had reminded him that he was the person that made the delivery and so he now remembered that event. He spoke about being asked to check for fingerprints even though he had done this already when he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Day made an affidavid on June 23, 1964 and this time he mentioned that he was asked to "recheck" for fingerprints as if it would be quite routine to be asked to "recheck" for fingerprints on small cartridge cases that had already been checked for prints.

In neither affidavid does he say whether he actually checked for fingerprints on the evening of November 22, 1963.

Day's Affidavids: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day2.htm

With Detective Sims and Lieutenant Day showing difficulty in remembering events you might wonder if Detective Dhority had remembered things correctly. Perhaps Lieutenant Day did not check the Cartridges for prints that evening, he just retained two and gave Dhority one back without doing any processing and Dhority had not remembered this correctly. After all, his affidavid was made 6 months after the event.

However, in the City of Dallas archives Box 3, Folder 5, Item 1 is a report by Dhority. It is not dated but this type of report would have been made soon after the assassination. In this report Dective Dhority makes a more emphatic statement that Lieutenant Day checked the cartridges for fingerprints than he makes in the later affidavid.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

This seems to suggest that Lieutenant Day really did check for fingerprints on the cartridges twice that day.

Tony

Tony Its only odd if they are the same cartridges, Surely their chain of evidence would establish these facts .An evidence bag or envelope would have to be signed for before fingerprinting or any testing could take place .If they were tested by Day he would sign for possession ,test them, rebag them and send them off to the FBI who in turn would sign possession of them .

Would you agree? .

Ian

Ian,

Thanks, I can see what you are getting at. The story with regard to initials scratches on cartridges, names written on the evidence envelope, whether the envelope was sealed or not etc etc gets quite complicated. I need to put it together in some sort of logical order to explore this point further. Unfortunately, I have house guests for the next week and I will not have time to look at this until next weekend. I will get back on this matter when I can. Unless anybody out there has all the facts to hand and would like to 'chip in'

Tony