David Von Pein Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 (edited) I was recently watching the 1978 Mel Stuart-directed television movie"Ruby And Oswald", which is a film that does a very nice job of stickingto the known facts in evidence regarding the timeline of events surroundingPresident Kennedy's assassination and the days that followed 11/22/63,and I took note of something quite interesting during the scene which hasLee Harvey Oswald (played by Frederic Forrest) rushing into the roominghouseon Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff at approximately 1:00 PM CST on November 22:During the re-created scene of Oswald's probable movements and actionswhile inside his small rented room (which is a re-creation that can be seenin the video embedded above), actor Forrest hurriedly goes into the bedroom,closes the door, takes a light windbreaker jacket (like Oswald's) out of acloset, puts the jacket on, adjusts the collar of the jacket a little bit, zipsthe jacket up about halfway (which is something, btw, that housekeeperEarlene Roberts said that Oswald didn't do until after he came out of hisroom or just as he was coming out of the room), opens a dresser drawer,pulls a revolver out of the drawer, closes the drawer, stuffs the gun intothe waist of his pants, pulls the jacket back down over his waistband tohide the gun, opens the bedroom door, exits the room, and closes thedoor behind him.The total time that it took for Forrest to accomplish all of the aboveactions -- 22 seconds.The only thing that director Mel Stuart probably should have hadForrest do differently while he was performing this bedroom re-creation is to have the actor grab a handful of extra bullets from adresser drawer when he was also retrieving the revolver, because it'sdoubtful whether the real Oswald was carrying a bunch of bullets in hispants pocket when he went to work with Wesley Frazier from Irving onthe morning of the assassination (seeing as how he didn't have hisrevolver with him that morning at all).Another thing that might have added a few more seconds to the totaltime that Oswald spent in his room is the possible need to physicallyload his .38 Smith & Wesson revolver with some bullets. Although it'squite possible, of course, that the gun was already loaded withbullets before Oswald ever entered the room that day. No one can knowthat detail for certain.So, even if we were add a total of 10, 20, or even 30 full secondsonto Frederic Forrest's roominghouse re-creation to account for someadditional time required for him to grab a handful of bullets from adrawer (or elsewhere in the room) and to possibly put a few bullets inthe chamber of the gun, the total time that Forrest would have spentinside that bedroom would still have been less than 1 minute (and only32 seconds, total, if we were to add only 10 seconds, which seems likea reasonable amount of time for a man to pick up a few bullets and putthem in his pocket).Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in MelStuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect tothe real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit thatfact.But what it does do is to place on film a reconstruction of an eventthat is purported to have taken place on November 22, 1963, by LeeHarvey Oswald....an event that I don't think anyone has re-created onfilm elsewhere in other movies or TV shows or documentaries.And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post-assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse areprobably very close to the precise movements made by the real LeeOswald on 11/22/63.And the key, IMO, is the fact that all of those actions that Oswaldneeded to perform after going into his bedroom could easily beaccomplished in well under one minute (and probably well under 45seconds, even when adding a few more seconds for Oswald's neededbullet-grabbing), as proven by actor Frederic Forrest, who did performsuch an approximate re-creation of LHO's actions in less than 25seconds.The "How Long Was Oswald In His Room On November 22nd?" topichas come up at various Internet forums many times in the past, andI have added my two cents to the debate on several occasions, suchas the following examples:"The best guess is that [Lee] Oswald left his roominghouse atapprox. 1:03 or 1:04 PM (CST). My guess is it was even earlier thanthat; because there's no way in hell he was fiddling around in thatshoebox of a room for "3 or 4 minutes", per Mrs. [Earlene] Roberts'account. There would be absolutely no reason (logically-speaking) forOswald to have been in that room for more than 30 seconds at most. WasEarlene Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habitof stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses whenthey're asked to re-create "timelines"." -- DVP; 06/30/2006"I'd still be willing to bet that Oswald was not in that tinyroom for "3 to 4 minutes" either. One minute tops. I don't KNOW thisto be so, quite obviously. But, as stated before, people arenotoriously rotten at gauging precise times and timelines. And Mrs.Roberts certainly didn't have a stopwatch on Oswald; nor would shehave had any particular REASON to take note of exactly how long Oswaldstayed in his room. Her "3 to 4 minutes" is an estimate, and nothingmore. Next up from Walt I fully expect to see him claiming that J.D.Tippit was shot at 12:50 PM, or maybe 12:55. It seems to get earlierwith each passing hunk of kookxxxx he spouts." -- DVP; 08/16/2006"The walk back to LHO's roominghouse was re-created by WCcounsel members, and it took 5 minutes and 45 seconds....which wouldhave placed Oswald back home at approx. 12:59:45 PM. He was probablyin that shoebox of a room for no more than 1 minute (tops), andprobably (IMO) closer to only 30 seconds (Earlene Roberts' "3 to 4minutes" testimony notwithstanding), which would have given Oswaldample time to travel the 0.85 of a mile to Tenth Street to killOfficer Tippit. The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder siteon 10th St. has been re-created several times by different people(with varying results, depending upon the pace, of course), and theexcursion has taken as little as 11 minutes." -- DVP; 11/08/2007-------------------And while it's true that housekeeper Earlene Roberts testified to theWarren Commission on April 8, 1964, that Oswald "went on to his roomand stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], it's also a fact that Mrs. Robertsalso said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go inthere and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].David Von PeinOctober 2008Revised February 2010My JFK Blogs Edited September 25, 2015 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Is it true that the Landlady considered it her right to ensure there were no liquor or guns on the property and at some point stated that to her knowledge there was no gun in Oswald room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyB69-yYy20 I was recently watching the 1978 Mel Stuart-directed television movie "Ruby And Oswald", which is a film that does a very nice job of sticking to the known facts in evidence regarding the timeline of events surrounding President Kennedy's assassination and the days that followed 11/22/63, and I took note of something quite interesting during the scene which has Lee Harvey Oswald (played by Frederic Forrest) rushing into the roominghouse on Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff at approximately 1:00 PM CST on November 22: During the re-created scene of Oswald's probable movements and actions while inside his small rented room (which is a re-creation that can be seen in the video embedded above), actor Forrest hurriedly goes into the bedroom, closes the door, takes a light windbreaker jacket (like Oswald's) out of a closet, puts the jacket on, adjusts the collar of the jacket a little bit, zips the jacket up about halfway (which is something, btw, that housekeeper Earlene Roberts said that Oswald didn't do until after he came out of his room or just as he was coming out of the room), opens a dresser drawer, pulls a revolver out of the drawer, closes the drawer, stuffs the gun into the waist of his pants, pulls the jacket back down over his waistband to hide the gun, opens the bedroom door, exits the room, and closes the door behind him. The total time that it took for Forrest to accomplish all of the above actions -- 22 seconds. The only thing that director Mel Stuart probably should have had Forrest do differently while he was performing this bedroom re- creation is to have the actor grab a handful of extra bullets from a dresser drawer when he was also retrieving the revolver, because it's doubtful whether the real Oswald was carrying a bunch of bullets in his pants pocket when he went to work with Wesley Frazier from Irving on the morning of the assassination (seeing as how he didn't have his revolver with him that morning at all). Another thing that might have added a few more seconds to the total time that Oswald spent in his room is the possible need to physically load his .38 Smith & Wesson revolver with some bullets. Although it's quite possible, of course, that the gun was already loaded with bullets before Oswald ever entered the room that day. No one can know that detail for certain. So, even if we were add a total of 10, 20, or even 30 full seconds onto Frederic Forrest's roominghouse re-creation to account for some additional time required for him to grab a handful of bullets from a drawer (or elsewhere in the room) and to possibly put a few bullets in the chamber of the gun, the total time that Forrest would have spent inside that bedroom would still have been less than 1 minute (and only 32 seconds, total, if we were to add only 10 seconds, which seems like a reasonable amount of time for a man to pick up a few bullets and put them in his pocket). Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in Mel Stuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect to the real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit that fact. But what it does do is to place on film a reconstruction of an event that is purported to have taken place on November 22, 1963, by Lee Harvey Oswald....an event that I don't think anyone has re-created on film elsewhere in other movies or TV shows or documentaries. And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post- assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse are probably very close to the precise movements made by the real Lee Oswald on 11/22/63. And the key, IMO, is the fact that all of those actions that Oswald needed to perform after going into his bedroom could easily be accomplished in well under one minute (and probably well under 45 seconds, even when adding a few more seconds for Oswald's needed bullet-grabbing), as proven by actor Frederic Forrest, who did perform such an approximate re-creation of LHO's actions in less than 25 seconds. The "How Long Was Oswald In His Room On November 22nd?" topic has come up at various Internet forums many times in the past, and I have added my two cents to the debate on several occasions, such as the following examples: "The best guess is that [Lee] Oswald left his roominghouse at approx. 1:03 or 1:04 PM (CST). My guess is it was even earlier than that; because there's no way in hell he was fiddling around in that shoebox of a room for "3 or 4 minutes", per Mrs. [Earlene] Roberts' account. There would be absolutely no reason (logically-speaking) for Oswald to have been in that room for more than 30 seconds at most. Was Earlene Roberts lying? Of course she wasn't. But people have a habit of stretching out time estimates to (incorrect) lengthier guesses when they're asked to re-create "timelines"." -- DVP; 06/30/2006 "I'd still be willing to bet that Oswald was not in that tiny room for "3 to 4 minutes" either. One minute tops. I don't KNOW this to be so, quite obviously. But, as stated before, people are notoriously rotten at gauging precise times and timelines. And Mrs. Roberts certainly didn't have a stopwatch on Oswald; nor would she have had any particular REASON to take note of exactly how long Oswald stayed in his room. Her "3 to 4 minutes" is an estimate, and nothing more. Next up from Walt I fully expect to see him claiming that J.D. Tippit was shot at 12:50 PM, or maybe 12:55. It seems to get earlier with each passing hunk of kookxxxx he spouts." -- DVP; 08/16/2006 "The walk back to LHO's roominghouse was re-created by WC counsel members, and it took 5 minutes and 45 seconds....which would have placed Oswald back home at approx. 12:59:45 PM. He was probably in that shoebox of a room for no more than 1 minute (tops), and probably (IMO) closer to only 30 seconds (Earlene Roberts' "3 to 4 minutes" testimony notwithstanding), which would have given Oswald ample time to travel the 0.85 of a mile to Tenth Street to kill Officer Tippit. The trip from 1026 Beckley to the Tippit murder site on 10th St. has been re-created several times by different people (with varying results, depending upon the pace, of course), and the excursion has taken as little as 11 minutes." -- DVP; 11/08/2007 ------------------- And while it's true that housekeeper Earlene Roberts testified to the Warren Commission on April 8, 1964, that Oswald "went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], it's also a fact that Mrs. Roberts also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440]. David Von Pein October 2008 Revised February 2010 My JFK Blogs "Now, granted, this "re-creation" performed by Frederic Forrest in Mel Stuart's 1978 TV-movie doesn't "prove" a darn thing with respect to the real Oswald's actions in November 1963. I'll readily admit that fact." Who did the screenplay? Arlen Specter? I notice the word "prove" has quotation marks, as in, "OK, it doesn't prove anything but it's obvious that that's probably what happened" And, IMO, Forrest's re-creation of Oswald's alleged movements and post- assassination actions after arriving at the Beckley roominghouse are probably very close to the precise movements made by the real Lee Oswald on 11/22/63. So, let me get this right. He assassinates Kennedy from his workplace (a decision taken no more than two days previously), makes his get-away (it IS a get-away isn't it?) on two modes of public transport before arriving at his rooming house to collect just two things: a gun and a jacket: (Yup, the assassin makes a slick get-away to get himself...another gun! Well planned Lee!) Then he hot foots it like an Olympiad for nearly a mile (all unseen by anyone)to an area he has apparently no previous connection with, and is spotted by a 'keen-eyed cop' (conveniently placed there and told to be "at large") whom he shoots before fleeing in the opposite direction towards a cinema where he grapples with a battalion of Dallas police who'd been called to go and arrest a gate-crasher. Is this the Oswald we have all heard about, you know, the cold calculated assassin that pulled off a meticulously planned hit....or, is he just the village idiot? His actions certainly lean towards the latter if this is the WC script. So who really was Oswald? David I have asked this question a few times on here but as yet no one has dared to give an answer. Even a ridiculous one! Maybe you could tell me when YOU think Oswald first made the decision to kill Kennedy. Edited August 2, 2010 by Bernie Laverick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man. He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man. He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed. I feel the same way about Oswald as you do John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 I've never read you asking this q so I haven't answered. He was a patsy. He was a kid playing with the big boys and they ate him up and spat him out. I think his reactions were those of the dawning of a reality for a very bright young man. He never made a decision to kill Kennedy. He made profiled led by the nose actions beyond his control. He survived capture and had some belief that he would have his say, so his primary concern was to get arrested alive and then live on his wits. He got a good hiding and was continually experiencing interrogation techniques from simple ones like good cop-bad cop to various psychic shocks so he would have been fairly hopeful and pliable at the end when he could speak no more and he spoke little in the time available to him. Perhaps a vague carrot had been dangled in front of him and he needed to believe in it. Or he was very conscious of what was happening and when they caught him off guard he quickly reasserted himself. He would only do this if he felt that there was a future for him. Beaten, but not cowed. I feel the same way about Oswald as you do John Of course, so do I. But I would like those who believe Oswald did it all alone to explain when he made the decision to do so. Not one has dared to even offer a guess so far. Such a simple question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made. Trust me at first I thought he was 100% not involved, but as time went on the same questions kept bugging me I think to myself, would I go home and grab my gun if I didnt do anything? No Would I go home and grab my gun if I figured out that I had been set up because I had been involved in a plot as a small player? Yes, because I would be scared for my life Thats why I think LHO killed Tippet, because he could trust nobody and was scared for his life I think that when Tippet pulled up to the curb and called out to Oswald that LHO said to himself this is it, this cop is going to kill me, so LHO got the draw on Tippet and killed him Oswald had to be involved at a low level in the plot He was set up to take the fall, and after JFK was killed he knew he was a dead man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 But the real question is this Dean, did he go and get "his" gun? You have to believe the same type of evidence that was produced concerning him ordering the rifle to believe he also ordered the revolver. Lee, Surely, though, the difference is that Oswald had the revolver on him when he was arrested? You took the words right out of my mouth Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 A ''drop gun'' carefully maneuvered interchanging with ''dropgun 2''. I doubt Oswald would have been aware of any differences. I don't think he killed Tippit. He was a fall guy all the way. He realised in the end and I do think he had hope. Something must have given him such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Hagerman Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 But the real question is this Dean, did he go and get "his" gun? You have to believe the same type of evidence that was produced concerning him ordering the rifle to believe he also ordered the revolver. Lee, Surely, though, the difference is that Oswald had the revolver on him when he was arrested? That depends on what you believe happened in the theater Martin. P.S. That's to you too, Dean. Only just saw what you wrote in reply to Martin. Lee I open to the possibility that a gun could have been planted Its just my opinion that Oswald owned/borrowed a revolver and went home to get it to protect himself from being silenced As we all know Ruby silenced Oswald forever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 (edited) ok I've gone into the dropgun scenario before including a diagram of A way that reconciled various issues including the lunchbag gun. (I also have niggling thought that the dead letter envelope has something to do with it. (this is also why I keep harping on the USPO. ALL groupings depended on one thing. Transfer of data. In all theories must be an understanding about JE Day and his visit from helms dulles and rockefeller??? aqcuiescing to illegal acts. When Kennedy got rid of him Grunowsky became the first PM* Gen to refuse a long tradition. By 1969 old personnell were given marching orders and by 71 Nixon had disbanded the oldest nexus of data in the US (world really, some of the stuff happening in global postal networking is botherdsome imo) edit:PM not insp Edited August 2, 2010 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Laverick Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Dean, I think many somewhere inside feel this is somehow so. I'm perhaps presumptious to state it worthy of consideration and various shifts in perspective made. Trust me at first I thought he was 100% not involved, but as time went on the same questions kept bugging me I think to myself, would I go home and grab my gun if I didnt do anything? No Would I go home and grab my gun if I figured out that I had been set up because I had been involved in a plot as a small player? Yes, because I would be scared for my life Thats why I think LHO killed Tippet, because he could trust nobody and was scared for his life I think that when Tippet pulled up to the curb and called out to Oswald that LHO said to himself this is it, this cop is going to kill me, so LHO got the draw on Tippet and killed him Oswald had to be involved at a low level in the plot He was set up to take the fall, and after JFK was killed he knew he was a dead man I would even go one further than "involved". I believe Oswald knew exactly what was going down that day. Had history twisted itself just a little on 22nd Nov 1963 and another patsy had been assigned the role (maybe one of the knoll shooters say) Oswald would have become just another suspicious, maybe even peripheral, 'name' to add to that shadowy list of those with a possible involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 ok, me, i'm gonna have to sleep on this one. laters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 My only question regarding the brief visit to the 1026 N. Beckley rooming house room is - Did Oswald change his shirt, and is the shirt he had on at the time of the arrest the same shirt he had on at the time of the assassination? And if they are different shirts, can we see them together and compare them? Thanks, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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