Dawn Meredith Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I have had these two emails from Jan Klimkowski and Charles R. Drago. Do members think we should delete these postings? To John Simkin Myra Bronstein has published details of private and confidential emails at the Education Forum. This is to inform you that the Education Forum does not have permission to publish details of my private email correpondence, and I hereby request you to remove all such emails, and alleged excerpts of emails, immediately. Jan Klimkowski Dear Mr. Simkin, Please cease and desist from publishing my private-emails. You are doing so without my permission on the Spartacus site, of which you are a co-owner. Be advised that, should the practice continue, I shall seek all remedies available to me under international and other relevant statutes. Further, you do not have my permission to publish copyrighted material owned by me. Again, should you do so, I shall seek legal remedies. Sincerely, Charles R. Drago cc: Dennis J. McCarten, Esq. You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 John, I'll be happy to remove any post that you conclude puts you in an uncomfortable position. My recent posts are just a subset of the larger body of evidence anyway, and that is being assembled at My link [deeppoliticsforum.info]. Notice they don't dispute the legitimacy of the emails however. In fact they indirectly confirm that the emails are 100% authentic. And they had absolutely no moral qualms when their admin Magda Hassan posted--under a pseudonym unknown to 2/3 of her colleagues--hundreds of names and addresses, phone numbers, email address, etc. of presumably real people labeled as "Fascists" and "Nazis." Just let me know which posts to remove and I'll do so. Then Drago can threaten me instead. I'm accustomed to that because he's been doing it for years. Myra It seems to me that they are deeply embarrassed by what they have said to you in the past. I doubt very much if they have any legal case against the Forum but it will probably be a good idea to delete the emails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Was this an attempt of blackmail on your part? I have no idea what you and Andy communicated by email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 John, I'll be happy to remove any post that you conclude puts you in an uncomfortable position. My recent posts are just a subset of the larger body of evidence anyway, and that is being assembled at My link [deeppoliticsforum.info]. Notice they don't dispute the legitimacy of the emails however. In fact they indirectly confirm that the emails are 100% authentic. And they had absolutely no moral qualms when their admin Magda Hassan posted--under a pseudonym unknown to 2/3 of her colleagues--hundreds of names and addresses, phone numbers, email address, etc. of presumably real people labeled as "Fascists" and "Nazis." Just let me know which posts to remove and I'll do so. Then Drago can threaten me instead. I'm accustomed to that because he's been doing it for years. Myra It seems to me that they are deeply embarrassed by what they have said to you in the past. I doubt very much if they have any legal case against the Forum but it will probably be a good idea to delete the emails. John, I'll edit my posts to remove quotes from email and refer readers instead to http://deeppoliticsforum.info where the same material remains, with much more coming. Then they'll have no middleman to demonize, just me. Thanks, Myra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Was this an attempt of blackmail on your part? I have no idea what you and Andy communicated by email. I communicated with Dawn earlier this year expressing my concern about the mental health and well being of one of DPF's members (formerly a member and moderator here), and in passing, the deeply offensive and libellous things written about me on the DPF at that time. It was and is no secret. Since I am no longer active here or indeed on any other forum, happily all this nonsense now just passes me by. However, for what its worth, I do not think it is good practice to ever publish private e-mail correspondence on a public forum and I have never done this myself - (nice irony here for those with long memories of the controversy I refer to earlier in this posting!). Happy New Year to one and all. Perhaps we can hope for a new year free from childish and vicious bickering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Meredith Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Was this an attempt of blackmail on your part? I have no idea what you and Andy communicated by email. Blackmail?????? Not at all, it was a totally sincere email. That what was said to me via email in confidence remained so, and it was not just about a former member. I thought you were cc'd on the emails but I may be misremembering. At any rate I have not ever discussed it. All I meant was exactly what I said: that private mail should remain so. Period. Dawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Was this an attempt of blackmail on your part? I have no idea what you and Andy communicated by email. Blackmail?????? Not at all, it was a totally sincere email. That what was said to me via email in confidence remained so, and it was not just about a former member. I thought you were cc'd on the emails but I may be misremembering. At any rate I have not ever discussed it. All I meant was exactly what I said: that private mail should remain so. Period. Dawn But Dawn, you quote a private email here in a 12/24 post: http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5656-Recent-Events How does that fit in with your philosophy that "private mail should remain so. Period."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) John, I'll be happy to remove any post that you conclude puts you in an uncomfortable position. My recent posts are just a subset of the larger body of evidence anyway, and that is being assembled at My link [deeppoliticsforum.info]. Notice they don't dispute the legitimacy of the emails however. In fact they indirectly confirm that the emails are 100% authentic. And they had absolutely no moral qualms when their admin Magda Hassan posted--under a pseudonym unknown to 2/3 of her colleagues--hundreds of names and addresses, phone numbers, email address, etc. of presumably real people labeled as "Fascists" and "Nazis." Just let me know which posts to remove and I'll do so. Then Drago can threaten me instead. I'm accustomed to that because he's been doing it for years. Myra It seems to me that they are deeply embarrassed by what they have said to you in the past. I doubt very much if they have any legal case against the Forum but it will probably be a good idea to delete the emails. John, I edited my posts and replaced all quotes from others to me in email with the following: On edit 1/02/11, Myra: Email quotes are being removed so that EF will not be targeted by current DPF staff members. The full body of evidence is being assembled at http://deeppoliticsforum.info. I did leave context. And I did leave email I sent to others. And I left quotes from public forums, cached or live. If you receive additional letters from "Anyone, Esq." and/or you feel I need to do further editing please let me know. Thank you, Myra Edited January 2, 2011 by Myra Bronstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 You also have my email to you, whichh states basically the same thing. I have sent this to my atty. as well, an expert in patent/copyright law. Things that are said in confidence are expected to remain that way. I refer you to the "ps" in my email to you, of which no one is aware but the people to whom it pertains. I removed it from those to whom I resent the email; I expect the same from you John. Thank you, and nice to see the forum back up. Dawn Was this an attempt of blackmail on your part? I have no idea what you and Andy communicated by email. Blackmail?????? Not at all, it was a totally sincere email. That what was said to me via email in confidence remained so, and it was not just about a former member. I thought you were cc'd on the emails but I may be misremembering. At any rate I have not ever discussed it. All I meant was exactly what I said: that private mail should remain so. Period. Dawn But Dawn, you quote a private email here in a 12/24 post: http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5656-Recent-Events How does that fit in with your philosophy that "private mail should remain so. Period."? Dawn, Why is it that you fail to see wrongdoing when the latest crop of DPF staff members--including you--does something? In your stated view "private mail should remain so. Period." Yet you were the first person to publish a private email, from me to you et al, on DPF. Once you did that I assumed you folks would have no problem with me doing the same thing. Why is it acceptable when you post private email in a public forum but unacceptable when I subsequently post private email in a public forum? Why is it acceptable when Magda breaks official DPF rules and uses at least one pseudonym for 2.5 years on DPF without the knowledge of 2/3 of her colleagues? Yet the overwhelming majority of DPF applicants were denied permission (by Magda and all of us) to use a pseudonym? Why is it acceptable when Magda defies vote results to un-ban Evan and Len and Andy from DPF, and lies to her colleagues, including you, about that fact? Why is it acceptable for Magda to promote the disgraced and fired Drago from member status to Moderator status before the vote was even concluded? Why is it acceptable for your crew to pull the plug on DPF.com after I restored it, while preparing DPF.net in parallel, then frame me for it? Why is it acceptable when Drago breaks official DPF rules and calls members names on the forum? Yet when a DPF member engages in name calling you object? Just wondering. Myra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Colby Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 But Dawn, you quote a private email here in a 12/24 post: http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5656-Recent-Events How does that fit in with your philosophy that "private mail should remain so. Period."? They should redub themselves the Deeply Hypocritical Forum. Three of its moderators have objected to Myra posting the contents of their private e-mail but as Myra points out they did the very same thing. Drago is especially double faced because he stated explicitly that “The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it.” Lest I be accused of quoting him out of context se a more complete version with a link to the original below Should PMs Be Made Public? Whose call? Writer or Recipient? Charles Drago Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:06 PM I think this is a simple call. The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it. The writer of correspondence should send his or her message with this fact clearly in mind. A simple request for confidentiality by a writer to a correspondent is not a sufficient basis for the expectation of confidentiality. Only a written agreement to such a term by the correspondent in advance of receipt of the material in question should suffice. […] http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11595&st=0&p=127724&hl=message&fromsearch=1entry12772 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 But Dawn, you quote a private email here in a 12/24 post: http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5656-Recent-Events How does that fit in with your philosophy that "private mail should remain so. Period."? They should redub themselves the Deeply Hypocritical Forum. Three of its moderators have objected to Myra posting the contents of their private e-mail but as Myra points out they did the very same thing. Drago is especially double faced because he stated explicitly that “The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it.” Lest I be accused of quoting him out of context se a more complete version with a link to the original below Should PMs Be Made Public? Whose call? Writer or Recipient? Charles Drago Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:06 PM I think this is a simple call. The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it. The writer of correspondence should send his or her message with this fact clearly in mind. A simple request for confidentiality by a writer to a correspondent is not a sufficient basis for the expectation of confidentiality. Only a written agreement to such a term by the correspondent in advance of receipt of the material in question should suffice. […] http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11595&st=0&p=127724&hl=message&fromsearch=1entry12772 4 Thank you Len. I totally missed that because I rarely read Drago's posts. I think I can offer some perspective on the larger issue of threatening to sue for posting of private emails while posting private emails from a glass house. In addition to having two sets of rules and standards, one set for themselves and one set for everyone else, I think they feel safe throwing stones from their new safe haven in Iceland. (Magda said as much when she first suggested moving DPF to a server in Iceland, but I'll save those email quotes for my own website.) On 6/29/10 Magda emailed me and (I'm paraphrasing) said she was thinking of hosting DPF in Iceland because they just changed the law to make it a media haven. She specifically mentioned (I'm paraphrasing ) that there will be no libel and total freedom of expression and transparency. No censorship. She sold it to me by pointing out that (paraphrasing again) many places now including Australia and US under free trade laws boycotts are becoming illegal. Same for union action. That's why hosting in Iceland would be good she says, to avoid all that. Given the high-minded objectives that were presented I was intrigued and researched the law Magda referred to, the Iceland Modern Media Initiative (IMMI). Then I endorsed it and DPF staff voted unanimously (as was required for a significant change) to move the website to Iceland. I completed the transfer of DPF to Iceland on 8/19/10. And soon after that Magda was using her freedom of expression, and secret 'Peter Tosh' alias, to post harassment/hit lists of alleged Nazis on DPF with full names, phone numbers, email addresses, and street addresses -- but with no proof of her allegations. Guess freedom of expression is more important than transparency to her. So I'll provide the transparency. They're throwing stones from their safe haven in Iceland, at EF which presumably is not hosted in Iceland, and at me. However, because I learned so much from this recent experience, and from Magda's visionary strategizing, I opted to host one of my new websites - http://deeppoliticsforum.info – in Iceland as well. Now I can fight fire with fire. Or ice with ice. Or in the case of Icelandic volcanoes both. It should be interesting seeing how IMMI holds up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Bronstein Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 But Dawn, you quote a private email here in a 12/24 post: http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5656-Recent-Events How does that fit in with your philosophy that "private mail should remain so. Period."? They should redub themselves the Deeply Hypocritical Forum. Three of its moderators have objected to Myra posting the contents of their private e-mail but as Myra points out they did the very same thing. Drago is especially double faced because he stated explicitly that “The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it.” Lest I be accused of quoting him out of context se a more complete version with a link to the original below Should PMs Be Made Public? Whose call? Writer or Recipient? Charles Drago Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:06 PM I think this is a simple call. The recipient of correspondence -- electronic or otherwise -- is within his or her rights to share it. The writer of correspondence should send his or her message with this fact clearly in mind. A simple request for confidentiality by a writer to a correspondent is not a sufficient basis for the expectation of confidentiality. Only a written agreement to such a term by the correspondent in advance of receipt of the material in question should suffice. […] http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11595&st=0&p=127724&hl=message&fromsearch=1entry12772 4 Thought it might be a good idea to make a screen capture of this latest unearthed gem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) John, This does not constitute any legal advice, but I would remove nothing pertaining to contents of "private" emails, unless it can be determined that the authors can prove monetary damages caused by the re-posting of the contents of their messages. Do Myra's postings deprive anyone of royalties or impact the DPF revenue stream? Ironically, these people who claim to be advocates for transparency are nothing of the sort, when it comes to their own interests. I've deliberately avoided taking any side in the DPF feud, but I do not appreciate intimidating posts in reaction to "the game" not going the way some of our members would like. Unless you decide it is not worth the risk and the bother of answering baseless lawsuits, one can probably ignore these demands and threats. The receiver of these electronic communications seems to risk very little aside from reputation related, "good form" considerations, by posting the contents.: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it." To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed, secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate. Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value, but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them. If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail), you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a courtesy one should usually honour. Evan and all, In the hope that the rules are extending the life of these valuable and unique spots on the internet; Spartacus/The Education Forum, I support your intent and goals by having and communicating these rules, but I have two points to add. In the U.S., it may not be in good form, but it is well settled by those on opposing sides of the political spectrum that emails are "fair game" after they are sent. If the information on these two links does not sway you, or you are trying to tailor the rule to fit broadly across the English speaking world, I understand that you cannot exempt only U.S. residents from your email rule' guideline. http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/08/20/goldberg/index.html (Near the Bottom.) and: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/06/can-a-listserv-be-off-the-record/58765/ If the rule stands, can we agree to exempt the contents of all email from government employees originating from any government email address? I have seen examples offered from journalists having to do with U.S. military spokespersons denying communicating what was proved they had included in their emails, complete with originating verfying IP info and email addresses.... http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2007/10/28/boylan Sunday, Oct 28, 2007 08:18 ET A bizarre, unsolicited e-mail from Gen. Petraeus' spokesman By Glenn Greenwald (Glenn Greenwald's Unclaimed Territory I was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York.) (Updated below - Update II - Update III - Update IV - Update V - Update VI - Update VII - Update VIII) I received this morning an unsolicited email from Col. Steven A. Boylan, the Public Affairs Officer and personal spokesman for Gen. David G. Petraeus (see UPDATE III below). The subject line of the email -- which I am publishing in full, unedited form here -- is "The growing link between the U.S. military and right-wing media and blogs," which is the title of the post I wrote earlier this week regarding the politicization of the Army in Iraq, as evidenced by its constant coordination with, and leaking to, the likes of Matt Drudge, The Weekly Standard, and the most extremist right-wing blogs -- in the TNR/Beauchamp case and also more generally. I had a prior e-mail exchange with Col. Boylan several months ago when I requested an interview with Gen. Petraeus after he had granted an exclusive interview to far-right partisan Hugh Hewitt (author of the 2006 prescient tract: Painting the Map Red: The Fight to Create a Permanent Republican Majority). In terms of whether the U.S. Army under Petraeus and Boylan is, in fact, becoming a political actor, I'll let multiple passages from Boylan's email to me this morning speak for itself: The issues of accuracy, context, and proper characterization is something that perhaps you could do a little research and would assume you are aware of as a trained lawyer.... ...As we quickly found out, you published our email conversation without asking, without permission -- just another case in point to illustrate your lack of standards and ethics. You may recall that a 30-minute interview was conducted with the program that you claim to be a contributor. So instead of doing the interview with you, we went with the real talent, Alan Colmes. . . . I invite you to come see for yourself and go anywhere in Iraq you want, go see what our forces are doing, go see what the other coalition forces are doing, go hang out with the reporters outside the International Zone since that is where they live and work and see for yourself what ground truth is so that you can be better informed. But that would take something you probably don't have. Steve Steven A. Boylan Colonel, US Army Public Affairs Officer http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/06/can-a-listserv-be-off-the-record/58765/Can a Listserv Be Off the Record? Jun 25 2010, 4:14 PM ET Jeffrey Goldberg, June 25, 2010, threatening to publish emails from Journolist: "Nothing is really off-the-record. No conversation between more than two people is ever really off-the-record, and no e-mail is ever, ever off-the-record . . . . I've been leaked postings from JournoList before -- wonderfully charming things written about me, as you might have guessed -- and I haven't had the opportunity to use them, but would be happy to if the need arose"... Edited January 3, 2011 by Tom Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Still banned at the "new" DPF: If I use my static IP, the above is what I see when I go to the DPF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 If you're really interested in reading stuff there, go to the library, Evan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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