The Woman next to "Doorway Man"

[Pat Speer]

Billy Lovelady: (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'

Pauline Saunders: (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.”

The thought occurs, however, that the woman shielding her eyes is not at the east end of the entrance, where Saunders claimed to have been, but towards the middle, and that the woman shielding her face is therefore the woman Saunders claims was next to her, Sarah Stanton.

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day.”

What do ya think?

Edited March 2, 2012 by Pat Speer

[Robin Unger]

Interesting Pat.

Re: Weigman Frame

Willis 8 Crop / Murray Crop

Edited March 2, 2012 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Entrance lobby

[Richard Hocking]

Billy Lovelady: (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'

Pauline Saunders: (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) "At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked."

The thought occurs, however, that the woman shielding her eyes is not at the east end of the entrance, where Saunders claimed to have been, but towards the middle, and that the woman shielding her face is therefore the woman Saunders claims was next to her, Sarah Stanton.

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) "Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) "when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day."

What do ya think?

After reading the testimonies of the TSBD Entrance group, I came to several conclusions on location. I believe there are individuals in the shadows that are not visible in Altgens.

Very back row (behind the Lovelady/Doorwayman figure) going from West to East on either the porch or the top step, I have Frazier, Stanton, Sanders and Williams. Molina may be near that group, but nobody mentions him being with that group but himself. Shelley has to be one of the figures standing in front of the Back group, close to Lovelady/Doorwayman.

Some of the testimony is conflicting so none of this is 100% sure. Altgens LOS comes in at a 53° angle to the front of the TSBD, so the west column is blocking a good chunk of the back area of the entrance. I could make a few guesses on the identies of blotched figure, African American man, and Hand-over-eyes woman on the bottom step.

For what it is worth, I have African American man standing on the 2nd step up by the West column and Lovelady/Doorwayman on the 4th step up from the bottom on the West side of the center rail.

[Josiah Thompson]

Yeah, could be, Pat. Clever idea.

It just struck me that through all the argument over Lovelady being the man in the doorway, nobody thought of this: Let's assume that it was really Oswald in the doorway and the silly speculation is true.. unknown conspiritors switched Lovelady's face for Oswald's face in the Altgems.. what do you think all the other people there would have said? Had it really been Oswald standing there, then wouldn't one of the crowd of people who later mentioned seeing Lovelady, wouldn't some or all of thees people been beating there way to a reporter with the obvious story: "Oswald couldn't have shot the President! He was standing right next to me on the steps!" And wouldn't this have happened within hours of Oswald's arrest.

What do you think, Pat?

JT

Billy Lovelady: (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'

Pauline Saunders: (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.”

The thought occurs, however, that the woman shielding her eyes is not at the east end of the entrance, where Saunders claimed to have been, but towards the middle, and that the woman shielding her face is therefore the woman Saunders claims was next to her, Sarah Stanton.

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day.”

What do ya think?

[Guest Tom Scully]

Mr. thompson, in other areas, what seems predictable did not happen. For example, Mary Blefsoe, given her past and her testimony, should have been easily discredited. Instead she was presented as a crucial, reliable witness.

[Josiah Thompson]

I don't quite get your point here, Tom. Let's say all these coworkers were standing on the steps and noticed Oswald standing with them just as later they noticed Billy Lovelady standing with them, you mean they wouldn't have called up some reporter right away and said, "Something really screwy is going on here because while the shots were being fired Oswald was standing with me and a bunch of other people on the steps!!" The person giving the report could have suggested that the reporter talk to any of the other people. The story would have grown and been corroborated all around. Hence, it wouuld have been profoundly stupid to fake up the Altgens film (as Fetzer proposed); the fakery would have been exposed immediately.

I don't get the connection to Mary Bledsoe. Would you straighten me out?

JT

Mr. thompson, in other areas, what seems predictable did not happen. For example, Mary Blefsoe, given her past and her testimony, should have been easily discredited. Instead she was presented as a crucial, reliable witness.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Josiah Thompson

[Michael Hogan]

.....It just struck me that through all the argument over Lovelady being the man in the doorway, nobody thought of this: Let's assume that it was really Oswald in the doorway and the silly speculation is true.. unknown conspiritors switched Lovelady's face for Oswald's face in the Altgems.. what do you think all the other people there would have said? Had it really been Oswald standing there, then wouldn't one of the crowd of people who later mentioned seeing Lovelady, wouldn't some or all of thees people been beating there way to a reporter with the obvious story: "Oswald couldn't have shot the President! He was standing right next to me on the steps!" And wouldn't this have happened within hours of Oswald's arrest.

It never made sense to me that it was Oswald in the doorway, for reasons similar to above.

"Richard Trask studied the photographic record and published a book on it. In Pictures of The Pain he concluded that it was Lovelady in the doorway.

I asked Gerald McKnight, but unfortunately he never responded. Accepting as a given that Lee Oswald was the victim of an extensive and elaborate plot to frame him for the murder of President Kennedy,

how on earth could the conspirators choose a scenario that included Oswald being outside at the time of the shots? If just one person noticed his presence, all their meticulous and painstakingly-crafted plans

would crumble to dust. Whoever the conspirators were, they simply could not allow this under any circumstances. How careless were the conspirators if one believes it was Oswald in the doorway?"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18697&view=findpost&p=246441

My question: Is there evidence not contained in Breach of Trust that helped you conclude that it was Oswald in Altgen's photo?

I keep wondering why Oswald said he was on the first floor during the assassination instead of in the doorway where a perfect alibi would await if one of his co-workers had happened to notice him there.

I wonder how his framers could have allowed him to be in such a crowded and visible place, where a positive identification could have ruined all their plans.

[Guest Tom Scully]

I don't quite get your point here, Tom. Let's say all these coworkers were standing on the steps and noticed Oswald standing with them just as later they noticed Billy Lovelady standing with them, you mean they wouldn't have called up some reporter right away and said, "Something really screwy is going on here because while the shots were being fired Oswald was standing with me and a bunch of other people on the steps!!" The person giving the report could have suggested that the reporter talk to any of the other people. The story would have grown and been corroborated all around. Hence, it wouuld have been profoundly stupid to fake up the Altgens film (as Fetzer proposed); the fakery would have been exposed immediately.

I don't get the connection to Mary Bledsoe. Would you straighten me out?

JT

Mr. thompson, in other areas, what seems predictable did not happen. For example, Mary Blefsoe, given her past and her testimony, should have been easily discredited. Instead she was presented as a crucial, reliable witness.

I'm not buying into an alteration of the Altgens film. I was reacting only to the notion that anticipation of interference by journalists at the behest of witnesses would tend to limit mendacious potential of local and federal investigators and those of the WC, based on what I have observed of their "work" in the investigation of the two murders in Dallas, seems counter to the enormity of what we now know they managed to accomplish.

Oswald had a reputation of being a loner. The scene in front of the TSBD was not as I would picture the more orderly arrangement, prior to shots fired, of a reviewing stand. I can envision Oswald attracting little or no attention while slipping in amongst the assembled group of co-workers and the general public on the steps craning their necks to glimpse the approaching presidential motorcade. Why would anyone take notice of this quiet, colorless, new hire in the moments leading up to the assassination, or in the confusion immediately after?

The local press seemed to do nothing to challenge other developing investigative determinations, and just how and when would an organized "call in" to local news bureaus, begin? Under the best of circumstances, say if a half dozen of Oswald's co-workers had made a clear mental note of his presence on the steps, would they first meet to discuss contacting the news bureaus? Considering that Oswald was arrested for shooting a Dallas police officer, is it plausible that several individuals would contact police and then reporters to attempt to clarify that Oswald may have shot a cop, but that he was with them when the president was shot?

I think this helps to illustrate my point that in the most orderly circumstances, not many would have noted, recalled, and communicated their knowledge of Oswald's presence on the steps at the critical moment, and even if some had done it, it probably would not have mattered much, in the outcome. I also don't think it is possible to put too much emphasis on the influence of Oswald being dead just 48 hours later. Case closed.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_Issue/myth.html

Kill that Myth!

by Ian Griggs

.....The myth of the Oswald 'Coke' bottle

It now seems almost an unchallenged part of Lee Harvey Oswald folklore that he was holding a bottle of Coca-Cola when confronted by DPD Patrolman Marrion Baker and Building Operations Supervisor Roy Truly on the second floor of the TSBD shortly after the shots in Dealey Plaza. Indeed, there have been published comments and discussions claiming that this was somewhat odd since Oswald preferred Dr Pepper to Coca-Cola.

If those researchers who have written that Oswald was holding a bottle of Coca-Cola when challenged by Baker had taken the trouble to go back to the primary sources they would have learnt that this is yet another myth.

Consider the following brief exchange during Baker's Warren Commission testimony as he describes that meeting:

MR BELIN: "Was he carrying anything in his hands?"

MR BAKER: "He had nothing at that time." (3H 251)

Roy Truly confirms this in his own testimony:

MR BELIN: "Could you see whether of not Lee Harvey Oswald had anything in either hand?"

MR TRULY: "I noticed nothing in either hand."

MR BELIN: "Did you see both of his hands?"

MR TRULY: "I am sure I did, I could be wrong, but I am almost sure I did." (3H 225)

We have some added confusion here in Marrion Baker's FBI statement of 23rd September 1964 (CE 3076). This was apparently written down at Baker's dictation and includes the words 'I saw a man standing in the lunch room drinking a coke.' Those last three words, however, have been crossed through and initialled by Baker.

Lee Harvey Oswald, as far as I am aware, was never asked any similar question and there were no other eyewitnesses to this.

The origin of this widely-believed myth may come from the testimony of Mrs Robert A Reid, a TSBD Clerical Supervisor who occupied an office on the second floor. In her testimony, she describes that she ate an early and hurried lunch in the second floor lunchroom at around noon and then went downstairs to street level where she watched the passing motorcade. She does not describe what she saw but she mentions hearing three shots. She stated that she thought 'they came from our building' but then ran into the building to 'get out of this line of shots.' She ran up the front stairs to her second floor office.

MR BELIN: "And then what did you do?"

MRS REID: "Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him: 'Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him.' ..... He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands ..... The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand ..... " (3H 274).

Mrs Reid's journey on foot from the front of the TSBD to her office had subsequently been timed by stopwatch at approximately two minutes, showing that she encountered Oswald after his meeting with Baker and Truly. (3H 275). Later in her testimony, she stated that the coke bottle he was holding was full. (3H 278).....

My point about Mary Bledsoe was that she was presented along with Erline Roberts as giving some of the most important testimony in the investigation. To accomplish this, Bledsoe had to be coached by Forrest Sorrels who should have been a subject of the investigation, considering the failure of his agency to protect the President while he was in Sorrel's city. Despite the fact that the only witness testifying who might vouch for Bledsoe's presence on his bus, the "motorman" Mcwatters could not do it, nor could he establish that it was Oswald and not Roy Jones who was on his bus and in receipt of a transfer, the WC did not bother to summon Roy Jones to be examined by the WC in support of Bledsoe's statements.:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1745.435;wap2

Quote by Ian Kingsbury:

....Mr. BALL - What was that place?

Mr. McWATTERS - He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL - You went out there the next day, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, I mean--

Mr. BALL - The same teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS - The same teenager rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL - And you noticed he got off there?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." And--

Mr. BALL - Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the 23d of November?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.

Mr. BALL - That this same teenager got on your bus again?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, he got on.

Mr. BALL - And you noticed where you let him off?

Mr. McWATTERS - I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS - That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that--

Mr. BALL - Has he been on your bus since?

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes.

Mr. BALL - He has?

Mr. McWATTERS - He has rode with me since.

Mr. BALL - Yes. I see. Did you give him a transfer that day?

Mr. McWATTERS - No, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.

What day is he talking about concerning the transfer? the day after when he mentioned they thought he might be involved in the assassination?. and the MAN turns out to be the teenager Roy Milton Jones Who McWatters thought he was going to Identify (as the grinning man/teenager involved in the assassination)down at DPD at 6:30 .Oswald was not on his bus according to his earlier affadavit. so they tried to put Oswald in the Man grinning seat but to no avail.McWatters was at DPD to give a 10 -20 minute affadavit yet he is still there 6 hours later with his punch and blank transfers .The Oswald transfer was discovered when? at the same time the bullets were discovered? If not Why?. The transfer is small and light compared to .38 ammo which is also a lot bulkier, someone is telling porkies Bill and it ain"t me.

So, if the press slept while the DPD, FBI, and WC wove the above examples, and the following one, into such an "air tight" case against the suspect they permitted to be so quickly murdered while in their custody, why on earth do you take the approach of, "well, after all, common sense would dictate that investigators would not be so bold or wreckless, anticipating that the press and public would call them out on it," or words to that effect?

testimony of Erlene Roberts

...Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had that police car ever stopped there before ?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I don't remember ever seeing it.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen it since?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't pay that much attention--I just saw it wasn't the police car that I knew and had worked for so, I forgot about it. I seen it at the time, but I don't remember now what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you report the number of the car to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think I did---I'm not sure, because I--at that particular time I remembered it.

Mr. BALL. You remembered the number of the car ?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think it was--106, it seems to me like it was 106, but I do know what theirs was--it was 170 and it wasn't their car.

Mr. BALL. It was not 170?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The people I worked for was 170.

Mr. BALL. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this incident to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they was out there.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell them the number of the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I did because there was so much happened then until my brains was in a whirl.

Mr. BALL. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you and you told them that "after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police car No. 207?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No. 107.

Mr. BALL. Is that the number?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--I remembered it. I don't know where I got that 106---207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170.

Mr. BALL. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident squad car at all.

Mr. BALL. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. And one of the officers sounded the born ?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice.

Mr. BALL. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that right?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't remember it but I did know the number of their car--I could tell that. I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree and it's hard to remember.

Mr. BALL. Are there any other questions?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No, that's all.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mrs. Roberts, this deposition will be written up and you can read it if you want to and you can sign it. or you can waive the signature.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? And then you won't have to come back down here.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, okay....

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ARTHUR CARL (GLADYS J.) JOHNSON

....Mrs. JOHNSON. I have known Mrs. Roberts, oh, I guess it was 6 years, something like that, 6 years.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first meet her?

Mrs. JOHNSON. I hired her as a housekeeper.

Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Has she been working for you for that period of time?

Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; I let Mrs. Roberts go a time or two, then I would hire her back.

Mr. BALL. there some reason why you let her go?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.

298

Mr. BALL. What are they?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did. ....

I believe the investigating authorities and the political hierarchy in Washington, the intelligence agencies, and the management of the major press outlets and publishers who were answerable to their owners were capable of just about any action in this assassination matter, even if it seems easily anticipated to defy common sense and that this is their legacy, they built it, and own it. The work we continue to do hopefully has the effect of making them and their supporters and successors appear as corrupt, desperate, arrogant, and ridiculous as they had to have been to present and to represent the Warren Report as legitimate and reliable.

[Pat Speer]

Yeah, could be, Pat. Clever idea.

It just struck me that through all the argument over Lovelady being the man in the doorway, nobody thought of this: Let's assume that it was really Oswald in the doorway and the silly speculation is true.. unknown conspiritors switched Lovelady's face for Oswald's face in the Altgems.. what do you think all the other people there would have said? Had it really been Oswald standing there, then wouldn't one of the crowd of people who later mentioned seeing Lovelady, wouldn't some or all of thees people been beating there way to a reporter with the obvious story: "Oswald couldn't have shot the President! He was standing right next to me on the steps!" And wouldn't this have happened within hours of Oswald's arrest.

What do you think, Pat?

JT

Billy Lovelady: (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in the New York Herald-Tribune) (While discussing the person in the Altgens photo some claim is Oswald) "Lovelady maintains it is he standing in the doorway at the moment of the assassination. 'I was standing on the first step,' he told me when I interviewed him in Dallas two weeks ago. 'Several people saw me. That lady shielding her eyes works here on the second floor.'

Pauline Saunders: (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.”

The thought occurs, however, that the woman shielding her eyes is not at the east end of the entrance, where Saunders claimed to have been, but towards the middle, and that the woman shielding her face is therefore the woman Saunders claims was next to her, Sarah Stanton.

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “Sarah Stanton...advised that she is employed in the second floor office of the Texas School Book Depository...and at about 12:30 on November 22, 1963, she was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time. I cannot say positively where the shots came from. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time or at any time during that day.”

What do ya think?

It seems likely the woman was Stanton. Both Lovelady and Shelley remembered her standing with them on the steps, but said nothing of Saunders.

William Lovelady (11-22-63 FBI report, CD5 p332-333) "On November 22, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 P.M. watching the Presidential motorcade pass." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H662) “At the time the presidential motorcade passed the Depository building heading west on Elm Street I was standing on the top step to the far right of the wall to the entrance way to the Texas School Book Depository Building. At this time I recall that William H. Shelley...and Mrs. Sarah Stanton...both of whom are likewise employed at the Texas School Book Depository, were standing next to me. (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H336-341) (When asked who was with him on the front steps when the shots were fired) "Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton and right behind me...”

William Shelley (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H673) “as the Presidential motorcade passed I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance. At the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing at this same place. Billy N. Lovelady who works under my supervision at the Texas School Book Depository was seated on the entrance steps just in front of me. I recall that Wesley Frazier, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mrs, Carolyn Arnold, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository, were also standing in this entrance way near me at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at the time Pres. Kennedy was shot.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H327-334) (When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards."

FWIW, I agree that, should Oswald have been on the steps, one or more of his co-workers would probably have said something. But that doesn't mean anyone would have listened. Look at Connally, whose fervent belief Kennedy was hit by the first shot was rejected by those feeling they knew better, once it became inconvenient to the single-assassin conclusion. Or Vickie Adams, who felt sure she raced down the stairs just after the shots, and didn't see Oswald. Or Charles Brehm, who felt positive the head shot was the SECOND shot. Or Roy Kellerman and Lee Bowers, etc, who felt sure the last two shots were bang-bang.

The witnesses were not exactly consistent. This allowed those choosing to ignore their statements to cherry-pick a few they liked, and pretend they weren't ignoring them.

[Richard Hocking]

During a previous thread, I drew a graphic of the TSBD Entrance to help visualize the relative positions of some of the figures using the Altgen's photo and stills from Weigman. The idea was to compare the visual evidence and the testimony of the individuals who said they were on the steps.

I could not find a true blueprint, so I used measurements off the Building Graphics used by the WC. I also used Don Roberdeau's plat for Altgen's position and his LOS. I measured the angle from Altgens to the corner of the West column, using the front of the TSBD as an axis. The angle measurement was about 53°.

I am attaching the graphic below as it may be useful in this discussion.

Would welcome any feedback on the positioning of the figures or any fine-tuning of the measurements.

Edit: Re-submitted the TSBD Entrance graphic showing LOS for Altgens as 50.3° off of the Drommer plat.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Richard Hocking

[John Dolva]

Looks good to me re persons so far.

For complete accuracy measurement I wouldn't recommend Don's plat. Unless he has updated. Drommer shows a misalignment on Don's re the area of the headshot and the area of the TSBD.

[Richard Hocking]

Looks good to me re persons so far.

For complete accuracy measurement I wouldn't recommend Don's plat. Unless he has updated. Drommer shows a misalignment on Don's re the area of the headshot and the area of the TSBD.

John, I have a digital copy of the Drommer plat

The current issue for me is where to place Altgens on Drommer. If I can do that, I can check Altgen's LOS angle on Drommer and see if matches the angle from Don Roberdeau's map.

My understanding is that Altgen's position was derived from the Z Film.

Are you aware of any other description for his location?

[Richard Hocking]

Update from my previous post above.

Comparing the two plats. Have noted some differences and doing measurements.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Richard Hocking

[John Dolva]

Ok. Richard, It'll be interesting to see if there are significant results.

I have stated this on numerous occasions and never had it confirmed. Perhaps it's been done elsewhere and I've not heard of it.

This impacts on other matters as well. I found the location of the z pedestal problematic as well as muchmore and nix posns and therefore the location of the limo in muchmore at the time of the headshots. One hypothesis that that led to was that muchmore is probably the most compromised film (and I suppose the disappearance of beverlys is explainable) as these three allow for triangulations which are inportant in locating opjects in these three films and then build a true representation of events chronologically in 3d. Anyway I look forward to see whatever the results may be.