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The Postmark On CE773


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On August 5, 2012, I received this reply on Facebook from a member of the "Post Mark Collectors Club". Conspiracy mongers like Mr. DiEugenio can spit all over this reply and ignore it if he/they wish to do so (and Jim no doubt will), but here it is anyway:

[Facebook Quote On:]

"The answer is less exciting than some had hoped -- it just means that it was cancelled at machine 12 where they cancelled the mail in Dallas. It's not a zone code or anything."

[/Quote Off]

I'm still waiting for a reply from the group known as the "Machine Cancel Society". The description of that particular organization includes the following blurb on their Facebook page:

"We are a philatelic organization of 300+ postal historians studying machine applied postmarks and the companies that invented those machines.

Mission:

Increase the dissemination of information related to Machine Cancels.

Company Overview:

We are a group of stamp collectors, located throughout the world, interested in the postal history of machine applied postmarks. These include American, Universal, International, Doremus, Barry, Barr-Fyke, Time Cummins, Krag, Bickerdyke, Perfection, Leavitt and any other machine applied postmarks."

------------

If anyone in the world should know what the "12" means on CE773, it's probably someone who belongs to the organization described above.

Edited by David Von Pein
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If you look in Armstrong's book, on the CD, he actually has the map the post office used in order to divide up the city into geographical postal zones preceding the advent of zip codes. This was not nearly as precise as zip codes, but it did help sort the mail.

The problem is that the nearest post office to JCS [Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall] was not zone 12 but zone 1.

DVP realizes what a serious problem this is for him. Which is why he is squirming around like a fish on sand to find a way out of it.

In actuality, the "12" that is seen on Oswald's envelope has never been a "serious problem" at all. It has always been a piece of insignificant chaff that conspiracy-happy people like Jim DiEugenio love to prop up as meaningful in some fashion. But, as we can now see, there is reason to believe that it's not meaningful or significant at all.

The bottom-line is (and always has been):

Lee Harvey Oswald's handwriting is all over every document associated with his 1963 rifle purchase -- including the envelope with the "12" on it, the Klein's order form for the rifle, and the money order that Oswald purchased and filled out in his own writing at the Main Post Office in Dallas on March 12th, 1963.

And we also know that that exact envelope and order form were received by Klein's in Chicago on March 13, 1963. The microfilmed record (CE773) of the envelope and order form, plus the Klein's internal order form (with the date "Mar-13-63" stamped at the top of it), prove for all time that Lee Oswald ordered, paid for, and was shipped Mannlicher-Carcano rifle number C2766 in March of 1963.

DiEugenio, however, thinks ALL of that paperwork is fake and phony. All of it. And that notion is just too silly for any reasonable person to even begin to believe.

WaldmanExhibitNo7.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein
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As I predicted, it didn't take long to get some responses on Facebook to my question about the "12" on the postmark. On the evening of August 5, 2012, I got this response from a member of the "Machine Cancel Society":

[Facebook Quote On:]

"The 12 is the machine number that canceled the envelope. Larger post offices have multiple machines to cancel their mail, so they number the machines and sometimes the machine number appears in the postmark, and sometimes it appears in the killer bars."

[/Quote Off]

Anybody still think the "12" in the CE773 postmark represents a Dallas postal zone?

JFK Archives/The Postmark On Oswald's Envelope

Edited by David Von Pein
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DVP,

You cannot link to FB messages.

Here is some patent information on machines 10 and 11. They seem to have been invented and used at or around the same time as the mysterious and elusive 12.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:VkwE3Uht8YIJ:books.google.co.uk/patents/US2947406.pdf+%22cancelling+machine+11%22&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgMg_klydwouTArDxigNJDHPXDFNMPU7OjkTfA9bqNsE4DR5cb6wJ_SRlFozIGpy2JGDNcRtJVqpAgB_Y_JXECMB2WsB_RDAASIsBaTyYHmblYLFrtivZ1KwA1X83J9TANuWJa1&sig=AHIEtbSe94_nb76h9UPdHLUw6fKobwLrLg

As you can see in the patent information, 10 and 11 had distinct roles to play. They were not interchangeable, and were meant to be used together. Since I can't access the information provided by Tom, can I ask where the wondrously clever 12 fits into the post office tableau of excitement machines given that 10 and 11 were around at the same time and seemed to cover all possible bases vis a vis cancellation of stamps?

Good work, btw, in doing some actual research. If only you would use your special postal machine tracking powers for good and not evil!

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Nothing DiEugenio just spouted means a darn thing.

He quotes some guy who lived in "Detroit 39", and thus this is supposed to have some connection to the "12" on the Dallas postmark that is seen in CE773?

Jim has taken up residence in Rod Serling's Zone again, I see.

Also notice how Jimbo has totally ignored the two responses I received from members of organizations who would certainly be in a BETTER position than almost anyone on this forum to know what the numbers mean on old postmarks (the "Post Mark Collectors Club" and the "Machine Cancel Society", the latter of which, incredibly, actually does exist).

Let me repeat those two responses for Jimbo to totally ignore once again:

"It just means that it was cancelled at machine 12 where they cancelled the mail in Dallas. It's not a zone code or anything."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The 12 is the machine number that canceled the envelope. Larger post offices have multiple machines to cancel their mail, so they number the machines and sometimes the machine number appears in the postmark, and sometimes it appears in the killer bars."

Edited by David Von Pein
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You cannot link to FB messages.

I was wondering about that too. I can see them, of course, since they are my messages and linked to my Facebook account. But I thought perhaps anyone could possibly read those messages, as long as they, too, were logged-in to their Facebook accounts (which almost everybody has nowadays). But, perhaps not. Sorry.

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Follow-Up:

I also posted this Facebook message and additional question on 8/5/12, in replying to the person who supplied me the answer shown earlier from the "Post Mark Collectors Club". The name of the person who sent that message is not revealed on their Facebook message page:

Thank you for your timely response.

Also: Is there any sort of USPS manual that exists online that describes (in official USPS terms) what the numbers indicate on postmarks? If so, could you direct me to such a webpage?

Thank you.

David Von Pein

================================

I received this reply:

"Hmmm, I don't know about a manual. This information comes from the collective knowledge of obsessive postmark collectors. I will say that discussing postmarks or places with some of us is like playing Scrabble against someone who's memorized the dictionary!

If I get any more info, I'll let you know."

Edited by David Von Pein
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Another thing that suggests that the "12" in the CE773 postmark doesn't represent a postal code within the city of Dallas is demonstrated by the two Dallas, Texas, postmarks from the late 1960s pictured below, which both show a combination of a number and letter after the words "Dallas, Tex." on the postmark.

The 1967 postmark has "3B" following the Dallas notation; while the 1968 postmark example has "1B" stamped on it.

So, unless Dallas had postal zones labeled with a mixture of numbers and letters (which I've never seen before), then those markings seen in these postmarks can't represent postal zones.

1967-1968-Dallas-Texas-Postmarks.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein
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Related Quote (which I've just added to my "Quoting Common Sense" website). I was surprised to learn today that this is the first one from Mr. Mack that I've put on my site. That's a blatant oversight on my part, because Gary's common-sense offerings are plentiful. I'll have to see about adding some more in the future:

"The [sixth Floor] Museum has NO position, just history. .... Oswald ordered a Carcano, got one, let others see it, had himself photographed with it, used it to try to kill someone but failed, then used it again to kill and injure. That’s what history says and no amount of whining and question asking [by conspiracy theorists] changes any aspect of that. There is simply no significant evidence that has changed that history, at least so far." -- Gary Mack; August 6, 2012

Quoting-Common-Sense-Logo.png

Edited by David Von Pein
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Related Quote (which I've just added to my "Quoting Common Sense" website). I was surprised to learn today that this is the first one from Mr. Mack that I've put on my site. That's a blatant oversight on my part, because Gary's common-sense offerings are plentiful. I'll have to see about adding some more in the future:

"The [sixth Floor] Museum has NO position, just history. .... Oswald ordered a Carcano, got one, let others see it, had himself photographed with it, used it to try to kill someone but failed, then used it again to kill and injure. That’s what history says and no amount of whining and question asking [by conspiracy theorists] changes any aspect of that. There is simply no significant evidence that has changed that history, at least so far." -- Gary Mack; August 6, 2012

That is not what history says at all. That is what a discredited inquiry found. Historians are split on the issue and there are plenty of HISTORICAL documents that cast much doubt. That should tell you that nothing is set in concrete... yet.

You want historical facts?

Here are some for you.

At the same time young Lee lived with him, John Pic worked in the intelligence branch of the Coast Guard (The Port Security Unit) alongside the FBI and ONI chasing commie subversives out of the ports.

Lee's truancy commenced when he turned 13 and ended at the same time Pic left the PSU.

While all this was going on, research was being done into the Korean POWs and what made some "turn".

The profile of a potential defector/collaborator was someone of average to above average intellect, from the South, lacking a father figure and with a history of truancy and/or other forms of rebellion.

When Oswald attempted to defect, it was to Richard Snyder, a former Harvard spotter for the CIA REDSKIN program which recruited students, teachers, scientists etc and sent them as agents to the USSR inside legitimate exchange programs. Some, with expertise in Soviet society, were used to help orientate other agents on their missions.

A Harvard graduate was inside the consulate office with the former Harvard CIA spotter when Oswald attempted to defect. His name was Ed Keenan. He was an expert in Soviet and Russian history, language and society. The same year that Oswald left the USSR, Keenan was kicked out as a spy. His name is missing from your "history" and he is not mentioned anywhere in the 26 volumes. Why is that?

http://www.reopenken...et/parker5.html

Another name missing is Mikhail Platovsky. He was parachuted into Minsk under the REDSOX/REDCAP programs (which were supported by the REDSKIN program) to gather intel and set up White Russian NTS cells. Among other orders, he was told to recruit among "morally loose elements".

He was arrested in late 1960. While all that was happening, Oswald was looking for a bride to take back to the US. He ended up with what one might at the time describe as a morally loose party girl - except this one also had a degree in chemistry and a penchant for White Russians...

http://reopenkennedy...khail-platovsky

Those are all historical facts... but no doubt ones you and Mr Mack will wish to continue to ignore.

Edited by Greg Parker
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Nice batch of meaningless mush there, Greg. None of which has anything to do with the topic of whether or not Oswald ordered, paid for, and took possession of Rifle #C2766.

But, as always, Internet conspiracy theorists love to concentrate on all the wrong things in order to paint a double-murderer named Lee Harvey as a poor manipulated patsy. ~yawn~

JFK Archives/Guns-Backyard-Photos-And-Other-Evidence

Edited by David Von Pein
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Guest Tom Scully

Related Quote (which I've just added to my "Quoting Common Sense" website). I was surprised to learn today that this is the first one from Mr. Mack that I've put on my site. That's a blatant oversight on my part, because Gary's common-sense offerings are plentiful. I'll have to see about adding some more in the future:

"The [sixth Floor] Museum has NO position, just history. .... " -- Gary Mack; August 6, 2012

Quoting-Common-Sense-Logo.png

STOP POSTING FOR GARY MACK. WE ARE NOT ROBOTS. GARY MACK HAS POSTING PRIVILEGE ON THIS FORUM WHEN YOU POST WHAT HE SENDS TO YOU, HE IS USING YOU..... MANIPULATING YOU. WHY BE A PARTY TO HIS MANIPULATION? TELL HIM IF HE WANTS HIS OPINIONS TO APPEAR ON THIS FORUM, TO POST THEM HIMSELF.

Edited by Tom Scully
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Nice batch of meaningless mush there, Greg. None of which has anything to do with the topic of whether or not Oswald ordered, paid for, and took possession of Rifle #C2766.

But, as always, Internet conspiracy theorists love to concentrate on all the wrong things in order to paint a double-murderer named Lee Harvey as a poor manipulated patsy. ~yawn~

JFK Archives/Guns-Backyard-Photos-And-Other-Evidence

Tell me, DVP, why did the Warren Commission and FBI expend so much time and money on compiling a LHO biography?

As far as I was aware, they did so in search of some answers to what happened on Nov 22, 1963.

Among other things, they were interested in his

home life (nurturing)

Influences

Friends, associates

Habits / beliefs

Work / education / Armed services history

Groups, clubs etc he had membership in

Physical / mental health

Any or all of those things could potentially yield clues.

Did they waste all those resources on "meaningless mush"?

Your attitude to this case is perplexing. Unless of course, you are on a mission to protect the status quo, regardless of the facts. I keep wanting to give you benefit of doubt, but then you make a reply like this and I feel the need to get someone to beat my over the head with a lump of 4 X 2 to knock some sense back into me.

Ask Mr Mack why Ed Keenan was never mentioned in the 26 volumes? Does his absence from them mean he was never in Snyder's office? Is he scrubbed from history?

Ask Mr Mack why Michail Platovsky - a CIA / NTS agent secreted into Minsk during the time Oswald was there, to among other things, recruit others - was never mentioned by the WC. Does his absence from the 26 volumes mean he is a figment of my imagination?

Any real inquiry would have been very interested in the intel work done by John Pic, Ed Keenan and Michail Plotovsky.

That you and Mr Mack believe history was accurately and fully recorded by the Warren Commission does not make it so. It published a history that was both incomplete, and at times, misleading.

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That you and Mr. Mack believe history was accurately and fully recorded by the Warren Commission does not make it so. It published a history that was both incomplete, and at times, misleading.

You conspiracists just can't get it through your heads that Mr. Mack is NOT an "LNer". He thinks there WAS a conspiracy. Why do you guys always totally ignore that fact when it comes to discussing Gary Mack of the Sixth Floor Museum?

As for the Warren Commission's investigation being "incomplete", let's face reality here -- for a conspiracy theorist like yourself, Greg, no history of this case could ever possibly hope to be "complete", because you keep piling on more and more stuff (aka: chaff) that only serves to muddy the waters when it comes to the basic bottom-line facts concerning Lee Oswald's guilt.

A great example of such muddying activity can be found in your posts in this thread. You've got enough six degrees of separation junk to cover a dozen murder cases. Does it ever end? And do you really think that stuff like the stuff quoted below (quoting you, Greg Parker) is relevant to who murdered JFK? Does any of this really change the physical evidence in the case--which is evidence that conclusively proves LHO's guilt in TWO murders in 1963?:

"At the same time young Lee lived with him, John Pic worked in the intelligence branch of the Coast Guard (The Port Security Unit) alongside the FBI and ONI chasing commie subversives out of the ports.

Lee's truancy commenced when he turned 13 and ended at the same time Pic left the PSU.

While all this was going on, research was being done into the Korean POWs and what made some "turn".

A Harvard graduate was inside the consulate office with the former Harvard CIA spotter when Oswald attempted to defect. His name was Ed Keenan. He was an expert in Soviet and Russian history, language and society. The same year that Oswald left the USSR, Keenan was kicked out as a spy. His name is missing from your "history" and he is not mentioned anywhere in the 26 volumes. Why is that?"

[End Parker Quotes.]

Oh, brother, what a bunch of nothin'.

The single biggest thing that has made the JFK murder case seem so endlessly complicated (even though it's really a very simple crime to solve) is the fact that so many conspiracy theorists like Greg Parker, James Fetzer, Mark Lane, James DiEugenio, and John Armstrong (et al) have spent thousands of hours heaping more and more "suspects" and "connections" and minutiae and unsupportable theories onto the conspiracy table, making it absolutely impossible to make the record "complete".

As Vincent Bugliosi has said many times (and he's right): The JFK case is endless; there is no bottom to the pile.

And the only reason it's endless is because of the conspiracy theorists' never-ending quest to be right about some element of their perpetual conspiracy theories in the John F. Kennedy case.

But when an LNer on the other side takes time to examine some of these theories and "connections" more closely, the theory always turns out to be bogus.

Here are just a few examples:

1.) The subject of this very Education Forum thread -- the postmark on Oswald's envelope (CE773). There's now good reason to conclude that the "12" on that Dallas postmark doesn't have anything to do with any postal zone within the city of Dallas at all.

2.) The death of Domingo Benavides' brother, Eddy. For years, outer-fringe CTers were saying that Eddy Benavides was murdered as part of some continuing conspiracy plot in the JFK assassination (i.e., to send a message to Domingo prior to his giving his Warren Commission testimony). But recently it's been learned (via Dallas newspaper clippings) that Eddy Benavides didn't die in 1964, he died in 1965, a full year AFTER Domingo gave his WC testimony.

3.) The three tramps, whose arrest records were discovered years later (by a pair of conspiracy theorists, of all people), with the tramps turning out to be nothing but...real tramps.

4.) The "backyard photos are fake" theory, which, amazingly, many CTers still embrace to this day, even though we now know (as of 1977) that Lee Oswald himself personally signed one of the photos and gave it to George DeMohrenschildt.

5.) The people who scream that "The Single-Bullet Theory is physically impossible" should now be hiding their faces in shame and embarrassment here in the 21st century, due to the fine work done by people like Dale Myers, Failure Analysis, and the Discovery Channel -- all of whom have pretty much verified that the SBT is a workable and reasonable conclusion (especially when considering what the silly multi-gun anti-SBT alternatives have got to be if the SBT is untrue).

Give me a few more minutes and I could come up with lots more theories that have deservedly been flushed down the toilet since 1963.

I'll close with a few relevant and astute quotes from the great Jean Davison:

"The conspiracists' methods produce a surreal world. Every discrepancy is interpreted as a crack in the official stone wall through which one may glimpse the ugly truth of what happened. Behind the wall are disconnected scenes, each with its own set of conspirators. On close examination, many of these scenes evaporate." -- Jean Davison; Page 277 of "Oswald's Game"

~~~~~~~~~~

"The reader [of pro-conspiracy books] will understand the difficulty these writers have sidestepped if he or she tries to invent a story that explains why an INNOCENT Oswald went to Irving for 'curtain rods', left his wedding ring behind the next morning, brought a package into the Depository, and so on. Because the evidence against Oswald is strong, any detailed reconstruction that argues a frame-up will inevitably sound less plausible than one that argues his guilt." -- Jean Davison; Page 276 of "Oswald's Game"

~~~~~~~~~~

"Instead of focusing on the important issue -- that Oswald in fact ordered the weapon that was delivered to his P.O. Box, the CTs focus on the "capillaries," nitpicking the P.O.'s faulty record-keeping." -- Jean Davison; January 17, 2006

~~~~~~~~~~

"The assassination of John Kennedy was neither an act of random violence nor a conspiracy. It was carried out as a result of Oswald's character and background interacting with circumstance." -- Jean Davison; Page 297 of "Oswald's Game"

Edited by David Von Pein
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