Hoover in Ft. Worth

[Joseph Backes]

Hello,

I need some help. In Forgive My Grief Vol. 3 p. 85 Penn Jones has some information that J. Edgar Hoover was in Ft. Worth around the time of the assassination, the day before, I believe. I think Jones had a small article from a local paper. Hoover either was receiving or giving an award to the Boy Scouts of America.

If you have this book handy could you check this? Maybe post a scan? If Jones cites a newspaper, could someone give me the name and date for it? Thank you.

Joe Backes

[Joseph Backes]

Someone has sent me a scan of p. 85 from Forgive My Grief III p. 85. So, I agree Lee that page alone is not sufficient to support the idea that Hoover was in Ft. Worth.

But, for some reason I swear I saw something about Hoover getting an award or giving one to the Boy Scouts of America in Ft. Worth in November 1963. And It was in a newspaper article. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

Joe

[Michael Hogan]

....While I cannot answer your question regarding JEH in Fort Worth, I must say that over the last twelve months I have become increasingly frustrated with some of Penn Jones' "facts."

While I'm sure a lot of researchers find a lot of use in Jones' work in many instances I have found many things he says to be utterly unfounded insofar as no evidence exists to support them.

....It makes me not want to bother with any of his work from now on because this is about the sixth or seventh time I've been disappointed with his "facts" and it takes so much effort and energy to find sources and corroboration that ends up not existing. A bit of a shame really.

From John Kelin's excellent book:

Forgive My Grief was criticized by some who were otherwise inclined to support Penn Jones and his work. The book, they said, was in places poorly organized and overly speculative. This is a valid criticism, and particularly true of Forgive My Grief's later three volumes. But while Jones may at times been unpolished as a journalist, a point he readily acknowledged, his work successfully connected facts demonstrating the gross weaknesses -- the omissions and distortions -- of the Warren Commission. And few doubted his sincerity and courage. Harold Weisberg once said, "I think Penn and his wife Louise are two of the bravest people I have ever met."

Lee, your disappointment with Penn Jones' "facts" is understandable. It's hard to imagine what things were like back then for a liberal Democrat in the small Texas town of Midlothian. Who knows how much disinformation he was being fed and by whom, in an era where facts could not be checked with the click of a mouse.

In my mind, Jones' courage and determination will always trump any of the things he got wrong.

Here's a 1967 article on Penn Jones from the Texas Observer: http://www.baylor.ed...nt.php?id=69418

[Mike Rago]

No message.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Guest Robert Morrow]

"Mike Rago" told me that he thinks Israel was behind the JFK assassination; a concept which I find to be absurd.

I do think LBJ and Israel engineered the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967, though.

[Mike Rago]

for the record...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14562&st=105#entry243774

[Thomas Graves]

Hello,

I need some help. In Forgive My Grief Vol. 3 p. 85 Penn Jones has some information that J. Edgar Hoover was in Ft. Worth around the time of the assassination, the day before, I believe. I think Jones had a small article from a local paper. Hoover either was receiving or giving an award to the Boy Scouts of America.

If you have this book handy could you check this? Maybe post a scan? If Jones cites a newspaper, could someone give me the name and date for it? Thank you.

Joe Backes

Joe,

Are you sure it wasn't the Boys Clubs of America instead of the Boy Scouts? It was started in 1956 and J. Edgar Hoover was one of the co-founders. C. W. Murchison III of Dallas, Texas is listed in this Wikipedia article as one of "their successors in the Boys and Girls Clubs of America":

http://en.wikipedia....lubs_of_America

I seem to remember reading about Clint Murchison, Sr's trying to get tax exempt status (or something) for the Del Mar Turf Club horseracing track by founding "Boys, Inc" or the "Boys Clubs of America" and "donating" the racetrack's proceeds to it, but I could be wrong.

Ahh, here it is!

http://www.sandiegor...itics-la-jolla/

http://webcache.goog...n&ct=clnk&gl=us

From page 2 of 4, Part II:

"Two weeks after Del Mar closed for the season on Labor Day, 1953, Clint Murchison [sr.] wrote [J. Edgar] Hoover with details of his scheme to buy the track using a charity as a front. “I have talked with my tax man as to the methods we should use to make this a tax-free organization,” he said in his September 15 letter, excerpted in Clint, a 1986 biography written by Murchison’s longtime personal secretary Ernestine Orrick Van Buren, who said she had exclusive access to Murchison’s personal files.

'Assuming I am successful in making proper overtures in Chicago, I want your permission to tell them that I expect you to head it on an honorary basis in the beginning and that when you arrive at the period of your retirement from the FBI, you expect to devote your every effort to the furtherance of this project. I do not want to use your name in vain, so I would appreciate it if you would give me permission to tell the owners of the tracks in Chicago that I expect to have your cooperation.'

On June 11, 1954, Murchison and [sid] Richardson staged a press conference in the Gold Room of the Beverly Wilshire Hotel in Los Angeles, where they appeared, flanked by Hart and Louis B. Mayer, to announce their takeover of Del Mar. Time magazine reported they were buying a 40 percent controlling interest for $1.2 million. On July 12, the New York Times reported that C. Ray Robinson, a Merced-based attorney for the Texans, had outlined a plan to take over a total of six racing operations across the nation.

'Del Mar would be the nucleus of the planned chain of tracks,' the Times said. Ninety percent of the operation’s net would be given to Boys, Inc., a nonprofit that had been incorporated in Delaware on June 3, 1954.

'The foundation would operate a chain of centers in underprivileged urban sections from coast to coast,' the Times reported. 'These centers would have recreational facilities, guidance counselors, and vocational training facilities in which industrial concerns might participate.

'The sponsors would like to have J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, head Boys, Inc., whenever he sees fit to retire from the Federal Service. Mr. Robinson said Mr. Hoover had been approached on the matter and expressed enthusiastic approval of the foundation idea but had not committed himself on taking the position.'

'It was a racket, if you want to know what it was,' George Allen, a longtime Washington insider and crony of both presidents Truman and Eisenhower (as well as Murchison and Richardson), told Ovid Demaris in the 1970s. 'You see, they could go in and buy the track with their foundation, the Boys’ Club deal, and there’s no taxes. They would lend the money, then get it back, but you see, they would then control the track. Sure the Boys’ Clubs would get something, but it was a tax racket. One time they wanted to buy all the tracks in the United States. George Humphrey, who was Secretary of the Treasury, wouldn’t let them do it.'

The board of directors of the new operation, according to Murchison biographer Van Buren, was composed of Clint Murchison and his son John; Sid Richardson and his nephew Perry Bass; and Dallas attorney George C. Anson.

On September 10, 1954, the state Horse Racing Board granted a one-year license to run the Del Mar racetrack to Operating Company, a corporation owned by Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson. But the controversy over handing the Texans control of the track had not subsided; if anything it had gotten more heated.

The state Senate’s Committee on Racing, citing a loss of taxes to the state and federal government caused by the charity setup, protested the move. When it became obvious that the Horse Racing Board would award the license anyway, Senator Harry Parkman told the New York Times, 'We’ll propose new legislation to take care of a situation like this. We’ll amend the law to require the owners of a track to operate it.'

Parkman did not carry out his threat, and the state ultimately gave Boys, Inc., a ten-year lease to operate the track. But the protests continued, and the Texans were persistently rebuffed when they attempted to get the Boys Clubs of America to accept their money. In April 1957, according to Van Buren, Boys Club board member E.E. “Buddy” Fogelson, a frequent Del Charro guest, wrote his friend Murchison, saying, '…the National Organization would not accept directly or indirectly income derived from racetracks.'

'Not one cent has been turned over to Boys, Inc. I do not know where the money went,' said Gen. Holland Smith, a retired Marine general whom Clint had retained as a front man; they later had a falling out. 'It is my considered opinion that no money will be transferred to Boys, Inc., for at least five years, if then. I hope I have given you a fair idea of what I think of Mr. Murchison and Mr. Richardson…'

Sid Richardson died September 30, 1959. John Connally, as co-executor of Richardson’s estate, replaced him as a board member of the Del Mar track; Sid’s nephew Perry Bass, who had inherited the bulk of Richardson’s empire, also went on the board. Murchison, who had suffered a series of strokes, was replaced by his sons John and Clint Jr."

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

--Tommy

Edited September 6, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[James R Gordon]

Joseph,

Now and again I have seen suggestions that Hoover was in the Dallas / Fort Worth area on the day before he assassination. One such suggestion was that he had flown in to attend the party given by Clint Murchison.

A long time ago I did some research on Hoover's movements and discovered that on the 21st he had a full day in Washington and also an appointment at around 7.30 that night. I forget all the details now.

Anyway I came away with the feeling that, interesting though the idea of Hoover being in Texas the night before the assassination was it was not correct.

Hope that is of some help.

James.

[Phil Nelson]

Joseph,

Now and again I have seen suggestions that Hoover was in the Dallas / Fort Worth area on the day before he assassination. One such suggestion was that he had flown in to attend the party given by Clint Murchison.

A long time ago I did some research on Hoover's movements and discovered that on the 21st he had a full day in Washington and also an appointment at around 7.30 that night. I forget all the details now.

Anyway I came away with the feeling that, interesting though the idea of Hoover being in Texas the night before the assassination was it was not correct.

Hope that is of some help.

James.

That statement is not correct, according to the official J.E.H. calendar at Mary Ferrell. Thursday, 11/21/63 was wide open; his first appointment on 11/22 was at 10:00 a.m., more than enough time for him to catch a few Zs on the airplane back to DC and take another 3 or 5 hour nap before getting himself into position for "the news from Dallas."

[David Lifton]

If Hoover had been in the Dallas Fort Worth area in the 48 hours before the assassination, would not have Sumers or Gentry have been able to confirm that as a fact?

Well in about a thousand pages, neither does. ANd both of them are pro conspiracy and anti Hoover.

I find the notion that Hoover was in Dallas (or Fort Worth) in the days before the JFK assassination unlikely for a number of reasons.

First of all, and as far as I know, Hoover did not fly around the country on any commercial airline. Nor could he (or did he) have the ability to "order up" an Air Force jet. (Am I wrong on this? If so, please provide some evidence).

Second: if he were in Dallas or Fort Worth (and somehow got there by private jet) that surely would have been picked up by local journalists, and become quite well known immediately following JFK's death. ("Hey, guess what. . . did you know that Hoover was here the other night?" etc.)

Third--and this is purely my personal opinion: although I'm not saying there was not any "inside man" (or men) inside the FBI (and have wondered as to just who he (or "they") might have been) I personally do not think that J. Edgar Hoover had any foreknowledge of Kennedy's assassination.

I'm open to any reasonable evidence, but the notion of some "party" he was supposed to have attended is just urban legend, as far as I'm concerned.

DSL

Edited September 7, 2012 by David Lifton

[Joseph Backes]

I'm going to look at some stuff of mine this weekend. I could be wrong, and I was not referring to the Murchison party thing. But, I swear I heard or saw something about J. Edgar Hoover either giving or receiving an award from or to something like the Boy Scouts, or Boys Club, or that scam charity Boys Inc. At first, I thought this was in a Penn Jones "Forgive My Grief," volume. But, I also think there was a newspaper article about this.

BTW, Boys Inc. was the parent company of the Del Mar Surf Club racetrack and the Hotel del Charro (sp?) The director of Boys Inc, who ran it for Sid Richardson and Clint Murchinson was none other than John Connally. J. Edgar Hoover was heavily involved in Boys Inc.

If I find anything I'll let folks know.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Joseph Backes

[Mark Knight]

From WIKIPEDIA:

"

Founding Fathers

These people came together in 1956 to create the "Boys Clubs of America":^[4]

• Herbert Hoover, 31st President of the United States
  
• William E. Hall, U.S. Medal of Honor
  
• Albert L. Cole, G.M. Reader's Digest
  
• James A. Farley, United States Postmaster General
  
• Albert C. Wedemeyer U.S. Army Chief of Plans & Operations
  
• Matthew Woll, V.P. of AFL-CIO
  
• Jeremiah Milbank Jr., 2 time Republican Party Finance Committee Chairman
  
• Stanley Resor, Secretary of the Army
  
• James B. Carey, President of AFL-CIO
  
• J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
  
• Lewis L. Strauss, Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission
  
• Robert E. Wood, quartermaster general of the army, V.P. of Sears
  
• Fred C. Church Jr., Insurance Businessman.
  
• H. Bruce Palmer, President of the Mutual Benefit Life Insurance Company
  
• Edgar A. Guest, TV and Radio host
  
• Nicholas H. Noyes Indianapolis, Indiana
  
• George A. Scott, President, Walker-Scott Company
  
• E. E. Fogelson, Army Colonel & Cattle-Oil Baron
  
• Ernest Ingold, San Francisco, California
  
• Jesse Draper, Atlanta, Georgia
  
• Julius Epstein, Chicago, Illinois.
  
• Michael Jordan, Brooklyn, NY
  

Their successors in the Boys & Girls Clubs of America:

• Gerald W. Blakeley, Jr., Boston, Massachusetts
  
• Roscoe Brown, Bronx, New York
  
• Cees Bruynes, Stamford, Connecticut
  
• Honorable Arnold I. Burns, New York, New York
  
• John L. Burns, Greenwich, Connecticut
  
• Hays Clark, Hobe Sound, Florida
  
• Mrs. Albert L. Cole, Hobe Sound, Florida
  
• Mike Curb, Burbank, California
  
• Robert W. Fowler, Atlantic Beach, Florida
  
• Thomas G. Garth, New York, New York
  
• Moore Gates, Jr., Princeton, New Jersey
  
• Ronald J. Gidwitz, Chicago, Illinois
  
• John S. Griswold, Greenwich, Connecticut
  
• Claude H. Grizzard, Atlanta, Georgia
  
• George V. Grune, Pleasantville, New York
  
• Peter L. Haynes, New York, New York
  
• James S. Kemper, Northbrook, Illinois
  
• Plato Malozemoff, New York, New York
  
• Edmund O. Martin, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
  
• Donald E. McNicol, New York, New York
  
• Carolyn P. Millbank, Greenwich, Connecticut
  
• Jeremiah Milbank, New York, New York
  
• C. W. Murchison III, Dallas, Texas
  
• W. Clement Stone, Lake Forest, Illinois."
  

I also found a reference, in a December 1, 1969 speech then-President Richard Nixon made to the Board of Directors of the Boys' Clubs of America, in which he described J. Edgar Hoover as " a man who has received the highest award of the Boys' Clubs of America"...but there is NO reference as to WHEN Hoover received the award:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=2348

Edited September 9, 2012 by Mark Knight