Why I believe the SBT is nothing but BS

[David Von Pein]

Dave

If the SBT is such a wonderful theory, and so many believe in it, why can not one single one of you show us the path the bullet took through JFK's vertebrae to avoid breaking any of them?

We're all ears, Dave.

Well, Bob, there WAS a fracture of the first thoracic vertebra. In an earlier post, I quoted from Vincent Bugliosi's book regarding this fracture. I'll repeat that quote below....

"The autopsy finding as to the track of the bullet that entered the president’s back was buttressed by the HSCA forensic pathology panel’s 1978 examination of the X-rays taken during the autopsy. The panel agreed, based largely on consultation with four radiologists, that X-rays of the president’s neck and chest showed evidence of air and gas shadows in the right side of the neck (likely a result of air seeping into the bullet track after the tracheotomy incision was made), as well as a fracture of the right transverse process (a bony knob protrusion) of the first thoracic vertebra, located at the base of the neck (1 HSCA 199; JFK Exhibit F-32, 1 HSCA 202–203; JFK Exhibit F-33, 1 HSCA 206; JFK Exhibit F-34, 1 HSCA 211).

The panel concluded that the fracture of the first thoracic vertebra could have been caused by the bullet striking it directly or by the force of the bullet passing very near to it, and the majority of the panel concluded that the bullet did not strike the vertebral bone (1 HSCA 305, 317). Dr. Baden testified that the X-rays showed “no evidence of any metal or bone . . . fragments in the neck area” (1 HSCA 305)." -- Excerpt from "Reclaiming History" by Vincent T. Bugliosi (c.2007)

[End quote.]

Therefore, we have the single bullet coming so close to T1 that it actually results in a "fracture" of T1, however the bullet itself did not directly strike the vertebra (per the HSCA).

Do you, Robert P., think you can fine-tune the path of the single bullet even MORE closely, so that you're confident enough to say that CE399 would have had to do MORE damage to T1 (or some other vertebra), even though the quote I just re-posted above verifies that T1 WAS "fractured", but by the PASSAGE of the bullet coming so close to the vertebra?

Sounds to me like a bullet CAN (and DID) pass through the President's upper body AND produce a slight bit of vertebra damage (just as you seem to think would need to have occurred if the SBT is accurate), but yet still not impede the forward progress of the bullet.

Or isn't the slight fracture of T1 (based on the mere PASSAGE of the missile) nearly good enough for you, Robert Prudhomme? Or should I chalk this one up as yet another time when the conspiracy theorists think something is CLOSE, BUT NOT QUITE CLOSE ENOUGH?

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Oh boy, THANK YOU Mr. von Pein!!

You just made your first mistake, boy-o!

Okay, YES the bullet grazed the transverse process of thoracic vertebra T1 BUT, it missed the transverse process of cervical vertebra C7.

Now, even though this forum will not allow me to c/p diagrams, I will demonstrate why this fact STILL makes the SBT impossible. I hope Mr. Gordon follows my post with a good diagram to support my argument.

The cervical vertebrae sit in a stack above the thoracic vertebrae, with C7 sitting atop T1. The transverse processes are the projections that stick out to the sides of the vertebrae. The transverse processes of T1 project out to the sides much further than those of C7. The vertebrae are stacked so tightly together, there is NO room for a bullet to pass between the transverse processes of adjacent vertebrae. In other words, if the Magic Bullet grazed the top of the transverse process of T1, it had to pass WAY to the right of the end of the transverse process of C7 or it would have hit C7's transverse process too.

The vertebra Mr. Gordon shows in his diagram is, I believe, C7, and depicts the required 28° angle of passage required to miss the C7 transverse process AND still pass through the right side of JFK's trachea.

Now, it makes no difference if the bullet actually hit T1's transverse process OR the shock of it passing through fractured it. The undeniable fact is that it MISSED all of the cervical vertebrae and, in order to do so, had to pass far enough to the right of them to make the angle of passage so great, the bullet could not have hit Connally in the right armpit.

Honestly, Dave, the crap you're coming up with proves how desperate you're getting.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[David Von Pein]

You just made your first mistake, boy-o!

Only my first, Bobby? I'm surprised you're letting me off so easy. Because I would have thought you considered all of my posts to be one great-big "mistake". But I guess not.

Honestly, Dave, the crap you're coming up with proves how desperate you're getting.

I'd say it's more in line with just exactly what I said twice previously in this thread....

Everything is always close but never quite close enough for conspiracy theorists.

Common sense ALONE dictates that the fracture (but not the breaking into pieces) of the T1 vertebra had to have been caused by a high-speed projectile. A bullet that's just about SPENT (i.e., STOPPED) inside Kennedy's neck isn't going to cause such a "shock wave" to damage the vertebra. Correct?

Ergo, a HIGH-SPEED PASSING MISSILE is what must have caused that slight T1 fracture. Just as that same high-speed passing missile is what must have caused the bruises on top of the lung and pleura. How could any SPENT bullet or bullets account for such "shock wave" type of damage OR the bruises that were found inside JFK's neck?

And since we all know exactly WHERE on Kennedy's body that high-speed missile entered his body (via the autopsy photos and the Boswell face sheet and the autopsy report too), your conclusion about the path of the bullet must be in error -- because T1 WAS fractured slightly and we KNOW where that bullet entered---14 cm. below the right mastoid process.

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Nice attempt at deviation, Davey boy. It's about all you are good for.

Now, cut the crap and explain to us how a bullet travelling from right to left through JFK's neck at an angle of 28° can exit JFK's throat, make a right turn and head for Connally's right armpit.

Can't do it, right?

[David Von Pein]

Bob,

Are you disputing where the two wounds in question are located in JFK's throat and upper back? Do you think the autopsy pictures showing the wounds are fakes? Just wondering.

Also: Can you explain how a bullet that has stopped all or nearly all of its forward motion through Kennedy's body could do the damage that we've been discussing (i.e., the bruises and the "shock wave" type of fracture to T1)? How would EITHER injury be possible via the cockeyed conspiracy scenario that has TWO bullets entering JFK's body and then just stopping dead?

You did say earlier that you CAN envision a single bullet passing through Kennedy's body, which would indicate (I would assume) that you must be disputing the actual physical LOCATION of BOTH the wound in the upper back and in the throat. Right?

So, there were really two DIFFERENT bullet holes in JFK's body to allow for YOUR kind of passage of a bullet through the body, but the autopsy pictures are showing wounds in places that you're saying cannot line up for an SBT to work?

Is that about it in a nutshell? Or is your theory something else?

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Can't do it, right? No, I didn't think you could.

Your only option is to ask a lot of totally unrelated questions and dodge my question.

David von Pein has NO answers.

[David Von Pein]

You're dodging as many logical questions as you say I am, Bob. (See my last post for verification of that fact.)

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

You see, it's real simple, Dave.

If JFK's neck was just a piece of meat, with no spinal column in it, the Magic Bullet could pass straight through from back to front and hit Connally in the right armpit. Even with the bullet travelling at a lateral angle of 9° from the SN to the limo, it could do this.

However, the neck is not just a piece of meat. There is a great big piece of bone called the spinal column that occupies most of it.

Your own evidence tells us the ONLY part of that spinal column to be nicked by a bullet was the right transverse process of thoracic vertebra T1. As it could not go under the T1 transverse process without hitting the T2 transverse process, it had to go over the T1 transverse process.

As the T1 transverse process projects further to the side than the C7 transverse process, and there is no room for the bullet to pass between the T1 transverse process and the C7 transverse process, the bullet had to pass to the RIGHT of the C7 transverse process.

Considering the position of JFK and the limo, in order to miss the C7 transverse process and hit the trachea, an angle of 28° is required.

Two problems. This bullet could not have been fired from the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Second, the path of this bullet would have been to the left of Connally.

You lose, boy.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[James R Gordon]

That is an excellent summary Robert.

The position and size of the spine is the real problem. The fracture - if indeed there was one because three of the four doctors the HSCA brought in to examine the X-rays were not convinced there was a crack. John Nichol's 28º is just devastating to the SBT. As you have so eloquently pointed out the bullet has to create a path through the spine in order to get to its exit point.

If the bullet did strike T1, and did no more damage, like a snooker ball it is likely it will have veered off to the right as a consequence of the strike. Just creating a crack on T1 does not help. And the suggestion that T1 was cracked in the first place is very selective use of evidence.

[David Von Pein]

Why couldn't the bullet have passed slightly to the RIGHT of the T1 fracture (vs. having to pass OVER or UNDER it)?

Also: Is Dr. Baden lying his ass off here? ----> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0102a.htm

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Now you are being ridiculous, David, and are clearly demonstrating that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Why couldn't the bullet have passed slightly to the right of the T1 fracture? You're not serious, are you? Don't you get that the further to the right of the fracture on T1, or to the right of the T1 transverse process itself, the bullet path is placed, the greater the angle of the bullet path is to JFK's windpipe?

I think I finally understand you, Dave. You've been running on pure BS and rhetoric all these years, and when someone finally presses you on the finer details of the medical evidence, your complete ignorance is revealed.

[David Von Pein]

So where, then, does YOUR make-believe bullet exit JFK's body, Bob?

"I think it is quite possible for the bullet to have gone through JFK's upper chest without hitting any bones." -- R. Prudhomme; 6/1/2014

Are you going to just PRETEND there was another hole somewhere on JFK's body for that bullet to exit?

Where did this bullet go? Why don't you ask the folks who disappeared the limo from Dallas to Washington, DC in such a panic on 22/11/63?

And from this comment, Bob is implying that the Secret Service (and others?) spirited the limo away from Dallas in order to hide critical evidence. And he's implying that a bullet somehow exited a bullet hole in Kennedy that never existed, of course, and plunged into the limo, where it was deep-sixed by the evil Government.

On May 27, Pat Speer was talking about the LNers' "imaginary creations". And now, five days later, it's another exciting episode of "Pot Meets Kettle".

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I think I finally understand you, Dave. You've been running on pure BS and rhetoric all these years, and when someone finally presses you on the finer details of the medical evidence, your complete ignorance is revealed.

No CTer can prove that Bullet CE399 did not transit JFK's body, and you know it.

Based on the six items I discussed earlier, there is every reason to believe a bullet went clear through John Kennedy's body in Dealey Plaza. From the Z-Film, to the 5/24/64 re-creation done by the WC, to CE903, to the autopsy report, to the testimony of the three autopsists, to the total lack of any bullets in JFK's body, to the WC's conclusions, to the HSCA's conclusions, to Dale Myers' exacting SBT study and computer simulation, to the FAA simulation, and to the 2004 SBT re-creation done in Australia by the Discovery Channel. EVERY single thing, in total, corroborates the idea that one bullet (CE399) went through both Kennedy and Connally.

CTers here say it was impossible. Too much skeletal structure in the way. I contend your analysis is inaccurate and the bullet just BARELY missed several structures in the President's body, coming within a whisker of hitting the lung and the T1 vertebra, but not striking them. And the autopsy doctors--who had THEIR HANDS ON THE PRESIDENT on Nov. 22--agree with that assessment.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/jfk-beyond-magic-bullet.html

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Now you are being ridiculous, David, and are clearly demonstrating that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

And does that same sentiment apply to experienced pathologist Dr. Michael Baden

too? ---> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol1/html/HSCA_Vol1_0102a.htm

Was Baden just one more boob and/or xxxx in a long succession of boobs and/or liars who all endorsed the notion of one bullet transiting JFK's body, starting with Dr. Humes?

Edited June 2, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

My responses in bold...

Silly, Pat (as usual).

The autopsy photo trumps Humes' "low near the EOP" bullet entry hole in the head. You know that as well as I do, Pat. Why? Because you have EYES too. (Don't you?)

Pat: Quit this ludicrous line of argument, will you? 1: it's not Humes who said the wound was by the EOP, it's EVERY SINGLE PERSON who noted an entrance wound on the back of the head. EVERY ONE, David. 2: it's beyond bizarre for you to pretend it's self-evident the red mark in the cowlick is a bullet hole when not only did Humes and the autopsy doctors not sign off on it being a bullet hole, but most every person to study the autopsy photos and x-rays in the past 2 decades. This includes not only a number of CT's, David, but two of the ARRB's three medical consultants, and the last three LN's to visit the archives: Sturdivan, Zimmerman, and Cummings. So when is it going to hit you, David? The cowlick entry was a hoax! Nobody at the autopsy saw it. And no one in recent years has even pretended it's supported by the medical evidence.

Humes (or somebody at the autopsy) was dumb for not specifically measuring the distance north of the EOP for the head entry wound. If that measurement had been provided, there would be no controversy at all (except any that might be manufactured by the conspiracy theorists, of course).

More malarkey of the smelliest kind. You know darn well that this controversy is very much alive in LN circles, and that the measurement is just a red herring. The doctors have marked the entrance location on the Rydberg drawings and skulls. And they have denied the red mark in the cowlick is the entrance. Case closed.

And there's no escape hatch for the CTers regarding these determinations made during the autopsy:

"The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body."

This was their conclusion. But they did not track the trajectory. That leaves their conclusion open to question. Dr. Petty, a supposed expert on gunshot wounds, wrote a textbook in which he claimed shored wounds of exit (unusually small exits) are nevertheless larger than the entrance wounds made by the same projectile. Ta-da. The throat wound (assuming it's the exit of a high velocity projectile) is not the exit of whatever entered the back.

There's a whole lot of detailed data in the above paragraph that the CTers are forced to think is 100% wrong (or merely LIES spouted by the evil autopsy surgeons) if theories like the one proposed by James R. Gordon are to be accepted as fact.

E.G.,

"The missile contused the strap muscles of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea..." --- Not NEARLY correct. MUCH more damage was clearly done by that bullet (or bullets) (per CTers).


"...and made its exit through the anterior surface of the neck." --- A bald-faced lie (per CTers).


"As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no bony structures in its path through the body." --- Another blatant falsehood (per CTers).


That's a lot of lying (and/or utter incompetence beyond belief), don't you think Pat?

But keep ignoring that autopsy report, guys. After all, it's only THE OFFICIAL AUTOPSY REPORT. That's all. It's only worthy of being set on fire, right?

(And Pat Speer calls ME "silly". Hilarious.)

You have to be kidding. YOU IGNORE THE AUTOPSY REPORT'S DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAW, and worship their conjecture based upon what they thought happened based in no small part on what they read in the papers!

------------

ADDENDUM (VIA A FACEBOOK GROUP I BELONG TO):

GLENN VIKLUND SAID:

David, still, you would have to agree that the conclusion to place the entrance several inches lower than apparently was correct - is nothing but, well - hilarious? I don't know what to make of such a mistake. How do you explain this David?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I can't explain it, Glenn. It's nothing short of incompetence in that instance, IMO. And I would guess that the dozen or so pathologists who looked at the photos would agree with me on that one, because every one of the doctors on the Clark Panel and the HSCA put the wound high on the head, not low.

They were all buddies of Dr. Fisher's. Fisher found a new location for the wound to help soothe Ramsey Clark, who was concerned about the head wound trajectory. Over the last two decades most everyone to view the official evidence has concluded the red mark in the cowlick is not an entrance.

Why on Earth the autopsists would mark the LATERAL measurement (2.5 cm.), but not the north/south measurement is beyond me. But the autopsy picture isn't lying. And the Clark people said the X-ray too lines up with a hole 100 millimeters above the EOP. That is CONFIRMATION of the higher entry point, IMO. But CTers disagree.

The Clark panel's radiologist, Dr. Russell Morgan, was a noted inventor and academic, but I have yet to find any evidence he was particularly competent as an analyst. Anyone thinking him a genius should explain why he came to the conclusion both lateral x-rays were left-lateral x-rays. OOOPS!

And, yes, the CTers can slap me around for calling Humes "incompetent" on this head-wound issue but yet believing he was not incompetent in other areas. But I really have no choice, as I see it. And that's because so many OTHER things tell me that the SBT is right AND that the cowlick entry is correct too. So, Humes must be RIGHT on one issue but WRONG on another.

Oh, if only life were simpler.

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