Another Conspiracy Myth Debunked (Re: Records Being Kept By Gun Shops In 1963)

[David Von Pein]

Contrary to the beliefs of many JFK conspiracy theorists (including filmmaker Oliver Stone), there can be no doubt that at least some store owners who sold firearms in 1963 definitely did keep records of their gun sales.

The two examples brought up in 2010 by Jean Davison here and here can easily be checked and verified by going to the primary source documents and Warren Commission testimony relating to those two examples — Albert Yeargan's July 21, 1964, affidavit, located at 11 H 207, and Alfred Hodge's Warren Commission testimony, which can be found at 15 H 496.

Yeargan said the following in his affidavit:

"When I worked for the H.L. Green Company, it had in stock and was offering for sale, a large number of Italian 6.5 mm rifles that were surpluses from World War II. On November 22, 1963, FBI Agents, Secret Service Agents, and I examined all sales records and receipt records concerning Italian 6.5 mm rifles. The records showed that the H.L. Green Company obtained its supply of these Italian 6.5 mm rifles from the Crescent Firearms Company in New York City." - Albert C. Yeargan, Jr.

And Hodge told the Warren Commission this on June 26, 1964:

"When it came in over the radio that [President Kennedy] had been killed with a 7-millimeter [sic] rifle, my wife and myself--we got our book and started checking to see who we had sold a 7-millimeter rifle to." -- Alfred D. Hodge

Hodge also told the WC this [at 15 H 503]:

"Captain Fritz' men came by with a shell, a Peters Wad Cutter, and that's this man and woman that got killed a few days ago out here and it has no concern with this case, but anyway, I checked my book and I found where I sold that man a gun and a box of ammunition, and they couldn't find nobody else that had that particular kind of ammunition, they said, so I called Captain Fritz and gave them that information and they went out and called me back in 2 hours and they said, "Boy, you're just as right as rain," and I give them a list of all the .45 automatics I had sold, and so they went out and picked up this bloody uniform and got a confession from him and he admitted everything." -- Alfred D. Hodge

David Von Pein
September 6, 2015

Edited September 6, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

There's also this e-mail I received from Gary Mack in 2010....

Date: 8/17/2010 1:57:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein

--------------------

Dave,

Regarding the purchase of weapons in Texas in the early 60s, Federal regulations required retailers to keep a log of all such sales. For example, Ray's Hardware in Dallas still has their January 19, 1960 log showing the revolver bought by Jack Ruby (but paid for by police detective Joe Cody, one of Ruby's friends). One of the folks at Ray's told me long ago that they must keep such records.

Gary

Edited September 6, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David G. Healy]

yeah, and....?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Like David Healy, I fail to see the point of this diary. It's interesting, but if anything it suggests strongly that the FBI deliberately failed to produce the material it obtained from Klein's, deliberately disposed of or destroyed the Klein's microfilm it allegedly obtained.

[David Von Pein]

The point is, Jon, to refute the many posts and comments I have seen from conspiracy theorists who seem to think that owners of gun stores in Texas in 1963 kept NO RECORDS at all. But that's just not true.

Now, I suppose CTers can still claim that Oswald could have used another alias to purchase a gun from a gun shop, which might make the purchase untraceable (if Oswald had also chosen to lie about his address and if no identification was required by the shop owner).

But some records were likely kept of the gun transactions.

And I don't know why you're saying the FBI "deliberately disposed of" and/or "deliberately failed to produce" certain Klein's records. The FBI produced all of those Klein's documents. And they all were photographed and ended up as Warren Commission exhibits [see Warren Report, page 120].

The original microfilm was likely returned to Klein's. Big deal. It served its purpose, with all of the pertinent information relating to the purchase of the "C2766" rifle being copied and photographed for use in the official investigation.

So what's the big beef about the FBI and the Klein's documents?

~big shrug~

Edited September 6, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

~big shrug~

The point is, Jon, to refute the many posts and comments I have seen from conspiracy theorists who seem to think that owners of gun stores in Texas in 1963 kept NO RECORDS at all. But that's just not true.

Now, I suppose CTers can still claim that Oswald could have used another alias to purchase a gun from a gun shop, which might make the purchase untraceable (if Oswald had also chosen to lie about his address and if no identification was required by the shop owner).

But some records were likely kept of the gun transactions.

And I don't know why you're saying the FBI "deliberately disposed of" and/or "deliberately failed to produce" certain Klein's records. The FBI produced all of those Klein's documents. And they all were photographed and ended up as Warren Commission exhibits [see Warren Report, page 120].

The original microfilm was likely returned to Klein's. Big deal. It served its purpose, with all of the pertinent information relating to the purchase of the "C2766" rifle being copied and photographed for use in the official investigation.

So what's the big beef about the FBI and the Klein's documents?

~big shrug~

who seem to think that owners of gun stores in Texas in 1963 kept NO RECORDS at all. But that's just not true. No, it's even worse, they only kept the records that they chose to keep. Nothing about the WC records of the transaction prove that LHO had anything to do with buying a rifle from Kleins. The MO was out of sequence for MO sold in Dallas for March 63. There were no endorsements, which were required, on the back of the MO. The MO was not mailed from the PO where it was purchased, in fact, it was mailed from quite a distance in the opposite direction from where LHO was working at the time and the employer records show that LHO was on the job at the time, not miles away buying a MO and mailing it. I didn't notice all that info in the WC report. Do you think they might have been 'selective' in what they put in their report, knowing that those like DVP, who are not free to believe what they choose, would believe just what they wanted him to believe.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Jon G. Tidd]

Kenneth Drew,

In 1964, a gold-plated commission like the W.C. was likely to wash with the American people.

Today, both Left and Right ridicule government pronouncements and government leaders.

The most interesting thing about the W.C. is that it spawned distrust in the U.S. Government.

DVP and his ilk are throwbacks. They buy the W.C. conclusions, which aren't supported by the 26 volumes, as Sylvia Meagher reported. Why? I don't know, but I do discern DVP's unwillingness to believe the government lied. Lied through its various agents. He cannot believe in such widespread lying. There are probably very many like him. They ignore history. Especially Western Civ I and II. Those courses are about government lies, lies of the Catholic Church.

I respect the Catholic Church and Western Civilization. But I'm aware of lies baked into both institutions.

DVP rejects institutional lies. In that respect he is not dishonest, just naive.

[Kenneth Drew]

Kenneth Drew,

In 1964, a gold-plated commission like the W.C. was likely to wash with the American people.

Today, both Left and Right ridicule government pronouncements and government leaders.

The most interesting thing about the W.C. is that it spawned distrust in the U.S. Government.

DVP and his ilk are throwbacks. They buy the W.C. conclusions, which aren't supported by the 26 volumes, as Sylvia Meagher reported. Why? I don't know, but I do discern DVP's unwillingness to believe the government lied. Lied through its various agents. He cannot believe in such widespread lying. There are probably very many like him. They ignore history. Especially Western Civ I and II. Those courses are about government lies, lies of the Catholic Church.

I respect the Catholic Church and Western Civilization. But I'm aware of lies baked into both institutions.

DVP rejects institutional lies. In that respect he is not dishonest, just naive.

Jon, very good assessment of DVP's belief's. I basically agree with your version of the loss of truth in the country. I don't understand the reason behind DVP's naivety, surely they have done nothing to earn that undying trust. I guess the government has always lied to it's citizens, it's just with the complexity of the world today there is just a much greater need to keep the internals of government a secret. It seems that with the infiltration of the communists back in the 20's and 30's is when the real deception efforts started. Certainly there were massive efforts to keep secrets during the FDR regime'. Look at the character assassination of Joe McCarthy just because he wanted to get the communists out of government. Since the 'grand opening' of the files of the Soviet Union, all those secrets came out. How many was McCarthy wrong about?

But already, by the time the WC came out, there were many that were able to detect the outright fraud and lies it contained. I think it was certainly a big part of the plan to get it out as quickly as possible before the other books of the truth starting coming out. Once the other versions started coming out, it was going to be much harder to sell their lies. I think they still had a belief that many would be like DVP and never even think to question them. The government of today and at least since Clinton came into office has been totally about keeping the people off balance. It's almost like. Okay what did the government say and what is the truth? The Obama crowd have taken it to new heights. I will never see the truth revealed by the government because I sure don't see it being revealed at least within the next 15 years and the odds are certainly against me living to be over 90 years old.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Kenneth Drew