Ball, Belin, and the Depository Witnesses

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, I don't think Shelley and Lovelady lied about the three minutes. They were wrong about it, but I don't think they lied.

If they were part of some plot to discredit Adams, they would have both been coached to claim they'd spent a number of minutes in the train yards, and not out front.

It doesn't matter where Shelley and Lovelady spent their time, just as long as they spent it somewhere before entering the TSBD. It's their timing that discredits Victoria Adams' testimony.

Look at 1) how their stories evolved, and 2) how the location of where they spent several minutes changed:

 

Billy Lovelady

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif

"After [the shooting] was over we went back into the building...."

     FBI Report, 11/22/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-BNL-Nov-23-1963.jpg

"....immediately after hearing the shots {Lovelady] and Shelley started running towards the presidential car, but it sped away.... [They] then returned to the [TSBD]...."

      FBI Statement, 3/19/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 62.)

"....following the shooting, I ran toward the spot where President Kennedy's car had stopped. William Shelley and myself stayed in that area for approximately five minutes when we then re-entered the Depository building by the side door located on the west side of the building."

     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page336.php

Paraphrasing for brevity's sake: "About three minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. After speaking with her, [we] walked quickly to the railroad tracks, and then entered the west door of the TSBD."

 

Billy Lovelady's 1963 statements are in accordance to what we see in the Darnell film. But both of his 1964 statements contradict what we see in the film. And those 1964 statements contradict each other. As for where their time was spent, Lovelady's 3/19/64 statement has him and Shelley spending five minutes down where Kennedy's limo had stopped. His 4/7/64 testimony has him (and presumably Shelley) spending three minutes on the steps before leaving.

 

 

Bill Shelley

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif

"I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into [Gloria Calvery].... I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened."

     FBI Statement, 3/18/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 84.)

"Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yard just west of the building and returned through the west side of the building about ten minutes later."

     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page327.php

Paraphrasing for brevity's sake: "About three or four minutes after the shots, Gloria Calvery arrived. Billy Lovelady and I ran across the street to the concrete island and stopped for a minute. We then walked to the first railroad track and watched them searching for a while, after which we entered the west door of the TSBD."

 

Bill Shelley's 1963 statement is in accordance to what we see in the Darnell film. But both of his 1964 statements contradict what we see in the film. And those 1964 statements contradict each other. As for where their time was spent, Shelley's 3/18/64 statement has him and Lovelady spending ten minutes at the railroad yard. His 4/7/64 testimony has him and Lovelady spending three minutes on the steps before leaving.

So, in summary,

• Shelley and Lovelady's 1963 statements and the Darnell film are all consistent with each other. None of them mention the walk down to the railroad yard and entering the TSBD by way of the west entrance.
• Only in 1964 do their statements 1) mention the railroad yard, 2) mention waiting somewhere for several minutes, and 3) mention entering the west entrance of the TSBD. Those three elements were concocted to discredit Victoria Adams' timing.
• And so it's no big surprise that it's only the 1964 statements where all the irreconcilable inconsistencies are introduced.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Guest]

 

click to enlarge 2x

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

 

Why does "blondie's" hair stay so white when I darken the photo?

First, I don't understand why you think blond hair would darken as much as brown hair does. But regardless, the woman is wearing a white scarf, as can be seen in the Zapruder still below. It would be hard to darken a white scarf, wouldn't it.

Why is the bottom of Calvery's skirt so horizontal?

First, I don't understand why you think a horizontal skirt line is... unusual. But regardless, I looked closely at the skirt line in the photo below and found it to be hanging at a slight angle.

What makes you think you can see a pattern in Calvery's skirt?

It's easy to see the pattern in the Zapruder film, especially the color version.  It's sort of a plaid, but with stronger horizontal stripes than vertical. If you zoom in on the skirt in Darnell, It's easy to see one horizontal line/area that runs at the same slight angle as the hemline, which corroborates that it is a part of the skirt and not just artifact. I can also barely make out another such horizontal line/area, not far below the bottom of the blouse or sweater. But granted, that one may actually be artifact.

But it doesn't really matter because there is only one All White Woman to be seen in ALL the films, which confirms that the one we see in Zapruder is the same as the one we see in Darnell on the steps. According to their affidavits, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed were standing with Gloria Calvery watching the motorcade. Gloria has a chunky figure and was easy to identify in the Zapruder film. The other two other women must be her two friends, and so the Woman in White must be one of Gloria's friends. We see Gloria Calvery standing with All White Woman in Zapruder, and then again in Darnell on the TSBD steps. In fact, running the film back and forth shows that All White Woman is holding Gloria Calvery by the arm and is trying to get her to climb the stairs with her.

Why am I protesting so much.

I don't know. I'm on your side with regards to the alleged second floor encounter, Vickie Adams, etc. You should be debating Pat Speer, as I am.

Actually I'm done now.

 

 

[Pat Speer]

 

I added a summary at the end of the chapter in which I put the suspicious actions of those investigating Oswald's actions in the building just prior and just after the shooting... in chronological order.

 

12-20-63. The FBI omits from a report on an interview with Eddie Piper that Piper feels certain he saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:00.

March '64--September '64. The Warren Commission fails to call Carolyn Arnold to testify, even though she told FBI investigators on 11-26-63 that she believed she saw Oswald on the first floor around 12:15.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Lillian Mooneyham to testify, even though she told the FBI on 1-8-64 that she saw a man standing in the sniper's nest at a time the Commission presumes Oswald to have been running down the back stairs.

March 1964--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to call Sandra Styles to testify, even though she could confirm Vickie Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting and didn't see Oswald.

3-24-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to follow up with witness Harold Norman and find out how his not playing dominoes at lunch made him think someone else was in the room--an inquiry that would have almost certainly led to Norman's saying he thought this someone else was Oswald.

3-24-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to point out during testimony or subsequently acknowledge that Jarman and Norman's claim they re-entered the building via the back door supported Oswald's claim he'd been sitting in a room with a view of the back door area, and had observed Jarman and Norman at this time.

3-25-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to follow-up on Officer Marrion Baker's claim he saw two white men by the elevators when he came into the building, at a time when no white men besides Baker and Truly were known to be on the first floor.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Billy Lovelady any of a number of relevant questions regarding Eddie Piper and Jack Dougherty's actions after the shooting.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball also fails to ask Lovelady if he saw Roy Truly and Officer Baker by the elevators, and could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball asks William Shelley if he saw Roy Truly enter the depository building, but fails to ask him the more important question if he saw Truly and officer Baker by the elevators, and could be one of the white men observed by Baker.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission's diagrams for the first floor of the school book depository strangely fail to include the west loading dock, through which Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building, which was presumably left unsecured for some time after the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin fail to interview Gloria Calvery and re-enact the actions of William Shelley and Billy Lovelady after the shooting (in order to develop a timeline for Shelley and Lovelady's return to the building, which is essential to their assessing the credibility of Vickie Adams), even though Ball and Belin know from their testimony that Shelley and Lovelady's sense of time for the moments immediately following the shooting are at odds with the re-enactments Ball and Belin had previously performed.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Mrs. Avery Davis about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect she would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to ask Joe Molina about Vickie Adams even though it has reason to suspect he would confirm Adams' claim she was outside on the front steps within a few minutes of the shooting.

4-7-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and establish the identity of a policeman observed by Vickie Adams just after the shooting, even though the identification of this policeman could help the Commission establish the veracity of Miss Adams' claim she raced down the back stairs just after the shooting, and didn't see Oswald.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and clarify the record when Charles Givens testifies to leaving his coat in the domino room upon his arrival at work, but then going back up to the sixth floor to get his jacket after everyone else had left for lunch--a brand new addition to Givens' story that allowed Belin and the Commission to place Oswald in the proximity of the sniper's nest shortly before the shooting.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to point out in testimony or subsequently acknowledge that Givens' new story was in conflict with both his previous recollections, and that of his co-workers.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin goes against the precedent established during the testimony of Bonnie Ray Williams and others and allows Charles Givens to dispute the claims of an FBI report--without putting the source of these claims on the record.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper where on the first floor he saw Oswald at 12:00, and thereby conceals from the Commission and public that Piper felt certain he saw Oswald just where Oswald said he was during the lunch period--in the domino room.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Eddie Piper about his discussion with Jack Dougherty, something that was desperately needed for the establishment of Dougherty as the passenger coming down in the west elevator after the shooting.

4-8-64. Warren Commission Attorney Joseph Ball fails to ask Jack Dougherty if he called the west elevator to the first floor or if it was on the ground floor waiting for him, something that Dougherty may not have remembered, but something that was of vital importance and needed to be asked.

4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin allows Dallas Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer to testify as though Charles Givens' new-found story (about seeing Oswald near the sniper's nest after everyone else had left the sixth floor) had been common knowledge on 11-22-63, when Belin knows this wasn't true.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to follow-up with Givens' 11-22-63 lunch partner, Edward Shields, to see if he will confirm Givens' claim he saw Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55.

4-8-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney David Belin, the man behind a number of re-enactments, fails to re-enact Givens' purported sighting of Oswald, to see if Givens could actually have seen Oswald where he said he saw him.

4-8-64--September 1964. The Warren Commission fails to test whether or not a rifle shot from the sixth floor sniper's nest window could have been heard by Jack Dougherty, standing near the opposite end of the building, as a sound coming from above him.

4-8-64--September 1964. Ball, Belin, and the Warren Commission fail to explore the possibility Dougherty went upstairs to work after the shooting, after someone else had taken the west elevator to the ground floor.

4-8-64--September 1964. Attorneys Joseph Ball and David Belin and the Warren Commission as a whole fail to acknowledge that their conclusion Jack Dougherty rode the west elevator down to the first floor as Baker and Truly ran upstairs places Dougherty on the fifth floor by the west elevator as Oswald crossed an open stretch of floor before him.
 

5-13-64. Dallas Police Detective Jack Revill testifies in support of Givens' new-found story, and offers Dallas Police Detective V. J. Brian as a witness to his discussion with Givens, only to have Warren Commission General Counsel J. Lee Rankin fail to ask Brian about Givens in testimony taken just after Revill dropped his smelly surprise.

5-14-64--September 1964. Warren Commission attorney Joseph Ball not only fails to ask Eddie Piper questions about Jack Dougherty he'd admitted in a memo needed to be asked, but uses the failure of Piper to provide answers to these never asked questions as a means of discrediting him. 

5-19-64. The February 17-18 statements of Vickie Adams, who claimed she raced down the stairs just after the shooting, and Otis Williams, who claimed he raced up to the fourth floor shortly after the shooting (and who later claimed he'd taken the back stairs up to the second floor just after the shooting), are inexplicably missing from a batch of interviews conducted by the Dallas Police that has been forwarded to the Warren Commission.

6-4-64--September 1964. Vickie Adams' boss, Dorothy Ann Garner, lets it be known she'd be willing to testify in support of Adams' and Styles' claim they raced down the stairs after the shooting, and goes one step further by claiming she saw Baker and Truly run up the stairs after Adams and Styles ran down the stairs.  And is totally blown off by the Warren Commission...

Edited November 7, 2017 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, I think this is is the most important part of that chapter.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
 

Now, this is interesting. No follow-up. In Dougherty's 11-22-63 affidavit, it was claimed he'd returned to the sixth floor after speaking to Piper, but saw no one. This was repeated in the FBI's 12-19-63 report on Dougherty. It seems obvious, then, that Ball would ask Piper about this in his testimony. But it is never mentioned elsewhere. It seems apparent, then, that Ball felt the question and answer above had covered that aspect of Dougherty's testimony, and that Dougherty had not, in fact, raced right back upstairs after talking to Piper, as one would assume from reading the affidavit and report.
 

(And, yes, should you be wondering, there is some support for Dougherty's claim he tried to help an FBI agent, but that this was after the discovery of the rifle and shells. While Nat Pinkston, the first FBI agent in the building, failed to write a report on his visit to the building, he did eventually grant an interview with the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, and admit that by the time he reached the sixth floor, the rifle had already been discovered.)

 

 

While most researchers, on both sides of the fence, believe Dougherty testified to going back to work, hearing a shot, coming downstairs, talking to Eddie Piper, and then going back upstairs, this is NOT his actual testimony.

He actually testified that he'd returned to work after 12:30, worked for awhile on the sixth and then fifth floor, heard a noise from above (not three shots from a corner window) and then descended to the first floor. His exact movements from that time are not explained. But he says he went back upstairs after being approached by a member of the FBI and reached the sixth floor after the rifle and shells had been discovered.

Well, this matches up with Roy Truly's testimony that he saw Dougherty at work on the fifth floor when he and Baker came down from the roof.

So, yes, it's actually quite clear that Dougherty was NOT in the elevator that descended from above as Baker and Truly ran upstairs. And that the WC knew this, and wall-papered over it by calling Dougherty and Piper "confused" in their report.

The WC had NO answer to the question of who was in that danged elevator, so took advantage of Dougherty's mental problems and concluded "Well, it must have been the "retarded" guy! You know these "retards"--they're so easily confused!" (I'm not trying to be offensive--I'm just using the words I suspect they were thinking.)

And the PROOF of this cynical and cowardly move is in the papers of Commission Counsel Howard Willens. I downloaded some of these from Willens' website back in 2013, before he cynically decided to take them down. In any event, one of these was a memo from Joe Ball to Wesley Liebeler in which he outlines the questions Liebeler is to ask Eddie Piper in his second round of testimony. These questions were all about Dougherty and Vickie Adams. They wanted to use Piper to undermine their credibility.

Well, guess what? When Piper was re-interviewed, it wasn't by Liebeler but by Ball himself, and he failed to ask Dougherty a single question about Dougherty!

And then used Piper's failure to provide answers to the questions never asked as a means of undermining Piper's own credibility....