Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Michael Hogan]

I also agree with Ron that the confession tape is a fake.

On the balance of the evidence, I tend to agree with you and Ron about the tape.

[Len Colby]

You reworded that for your post above, you hadn’t previously asked me a question. According to Drago that makes you something I’m not allowed to say.

Wrong again. If you want to intimate that I am a xxxx, at least get your facts straight. Here's the previously asked question along with a declarative statement.

I wonder what makes Colby believe I even read Peter's post? Typical of his limited mindset.

Exactly you reworded the sentence. It had previously been an indirect question not directed at me and seemed rhetorical. Oh and since you are such a stickler for grammar, indirect questions aren’t supposed to end in question marks.

Also I didn’t “intimate that [you are] a xxxx", I introduced that with “according to Drago”. In case you missed it I’m not exactly a fan, he stupidly accused me of being a xxxx because I truncated a statement of his in the following post.

What made you believe I read Peter's post?

I assumed you were following this thread. Perhaps you like I often skim or skip Lemkin’s posts.

"Have you read it [Peter’s post] yet?"

No.

I don’t believe you

Your two statements above are irreconcilable.

This is not the first time nor I expect will it be the last that you falsely try to portray statements of mine as being conflicting, I imagine this due to your limited intellect. The 1st statement referred to the time you posted post # 25 since I answering a question you originally asked in it, the 2nd as of # 34 since I was respomding to an answered you made in it.

"Indicative of your extremely limited mindset and why most here (Evan excluded) consider you a lightweight."

Once again you arrogantly presume to speak for most members of the forum. Based on PMs, e-mails and posts there are more than a few people who disagree with you.

So Mike do think it would be fair to say that your declaration that “the 9/11 Commission devoted barely one page to Atta, the man they called the ringleader of the plot.” when in fact his name appears well over three hundred times on dozens of pages in the report was “typical of your limited mindset”? How about when you whined that some of the pages I cited were too long? How about when you claimed that a quote I included in one of my posts couldn’t be found on the page I linked, when in fact it could?

Like I said, no one would be foolish enough to pay you to write this stuff.

What was it that Guyatt said about deflection? Odd that if the above was so inane that you avoided responding.

[Guest David Guyatt]

One can always tell when LFC is 'sparking over' 'deiseling' et al. - i.e. when he posts to his own posts. I think this entity needs really is to be regarded with pity, rather than animosity.

...poor Yorick, we knew him well......

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=12224

Videotape is admitted as evidence in court in criminal cases.

Videotape evidence is documentation:

http://www.answers.com/documentation?cat=technology

Dictionary: doc·u·men·ta·tion (dŏk'yə-mĕn-tā'shən)

n.

The act or an instance of the supplying of documents or supporting references or records.

The documents or references so supplied.

It is not just:

hard copy paper i.e., --- the collation, synopsizing, and coding of printed material for future reference.

But:

http://dictionary.die.net/documentation

documentation

n 1: confirmation that some fact or statement is true [syn: certification,

corroboration]

Of which videotape is acceptable.

Meanwhile,

Definition of hidebound:

http://www.answers.com/topic/hidebound

Dictionary: hide·bound (hīd'bound')

adj.

Stubbornly prejudiced, narrow-minded, or inflexible.

[Ron Ecker]

I also agree with Ron that the confession tape is a fake.

On the balance of the evidence, I tend to agree with you and Ron about the tape.

And if it's fake, it raises the question of why Bin Laden didn't say so. Would not such an accusation, prompting closer examination of the tape, be damaging to the West whose agents produced it? Damaging the West is what Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are supposed to be about. Further evidence IMO that he is dead, and was probably dead when the tape was produced.

[Len Colby]

Perhaps Dons David G. or Peter L. Quixote would be willing to point out where I said HOPSICKER didn’t document any of his claims or make videos. He does however sometimes make claims that he can't document. Someone else put out the page that I said had “little documentation”.

[Len Colby]

bump

[Len Colby]

bump

[Guest David Guyatt]

What hard evidence exists that Mohamed Atta was a member of the Al Takfir wal Hijra sect? That is to say evidence, not hearsay, not rumour, not "it is believed" or "it is said", or "it is suggested".

[Len Colby]

What hard evidence exists that Mohamed Atta was a member of the Al Takfir wal Hijra sect? That is to say evidence, not hearsay, not rumour, not "it is believed" or "it is said", or "it is suggested".

Good question David!

I don’t know of a lot but proving that someone belonged to a secret society is not easy. The best I can come up with now is:

Roland Jacquard, one of the world's leading scholars on Islamic terrorism, says flatly, "Atta was Takfiri."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...,182746,00.html

Do you have any evidence he wasn’t? You are proposing that his behavior was incompatible with that of a Muslim fanatic.

Funny though that someone who is so impressed by Hopsicker whose evidence often consists of little more than "hearsay" and whose star witness is a coke head stripper who ask such a question

[Guest David Guyatt]

1. does anyone present know if academic Roland Jacquard takes, or does not take, or has ever (or never) taken recreational drugs?

2. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

3. Is there any evidence that French terror expert Roland Jacques with "close ties to his country's intelligence services" (see: http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/documents/1006.pdf.) can be safely regarded as being "independent" --- or do his close ties and access to classified intelligence reports more strongly suggest that he is not really independent but rather an intelligence asset?

4. Does anyone present know if there is any journalistic - or law enforcement - convention that forbids or frowns upon a reporter - or law enforcement officer using witness testimony - specifically the testimony of the girlfriend of the accused -- in gathering information (for a story or a prosecutor) about the accused?

5. Hearsay is not witness testimony but that of a person or persons who are testifying about something they were told but which the did not witness themselves:

http://dictionary.die.net/hearsay%20evidence

Definition: hearsay evidence

hearsay evidence

n : evidence based on what someone has told the witness and not

of direct knowledge

[Len Colby]

1. does anyone present know if academic Roland Jacquard takes, or does not take, or has ever (or never) taken recreational drugs?

I’ve seen no evidence he does.

2. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

Not relevant since there is no indication Jacquard is a cokehead. I admit I’ve snorted a few lines in my life time but repeated use seems to effect memory

“In the late 1980s, researchers began noticing another type of blood flow disturbance associated with cocaine use. This second type involved less dramatic but more persistent reductions in cerebral blood flow that could lead to difficulties concentrating, slowed thought processes, and memory deficits.

[…]

A more likely outcome of the cumulative effect would be persistent blood flow reductions to large areas of the brain. These reductions are less substantial than those that occur in a stroke and may not kill nerve cells, but they could cause thinking and memory deficits, says Dr. Kaufman

[…]

In addition to taking brain images with SPECT, Dr. Strickland's group also administered neuropsychological tests to the cocaine abusers. These tests detected many abnormalities that seemed to be associated with reduced activity in the parts of the brain affected by the reduced blood flow. These abnormalities included deficits in attention, memory, concept formation, and mental flexibility.

http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol13N3/Cocaine.html

3. Is there any evidence that French terror expert Roland Jacques with "close ties to his country's intelligence services" (see: http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/documents/1006.pdf.) can be safely regarded as being "independent" --- or do his close ties and access to classified intelligence reports more strongly suggest that he is not really independent but rather an intelligence asset?

Is there any evidence he can’t be trusted? Is there any evidence to undermine his conclusion? Do you think French intelligence was “in on it”? In on it to the extent that we can’t trust a recognized expert with “close ties” to them?

4. Does anyone present know if there is any journalistic - or law enforcement - convention that forbids or frowns upon a reporter - or law enforcement officer using witness testimony - specifically the testimony of the girlfriend of the accused -- in gathering information (for a story or a prosecutor) about the accused?

No but if the ex-girlfriend is a coke head stripper the reader/jurors way take that into consideration when weighing her credibility. Especially if her neighbors said her boyfriend Mohamed WASN”T Mohamed Atta:

"The first photo they [Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) agents] showed us was the pilot who crashed into the first building, [i.e. Mohamed Atta] " Vonnie LaConca said. "It was not Mohamed [i.e. Keller’s boyfriend] or his friend. But the last picture they showed us was very close, but I could not say 100 percent that it was him."

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/091401/tp4ch14.htm

And she later said it wasn’t Atta according to the Sarasota Herald-Tribune:

Keller said comments attributed to her in the Herald-Tribune on Saturday, saying that Atta lived in her apartment, were wrong. She said that it was this unidentified fifth man, also named Mohammed, that stayed in her home.

http://www.madcowprod.com/fifthpilot.htm

According to the same article

- FDLE also thought Keller’s boyfriend was someone else:

He told the people he lived with in Venice earlier this year that he was moving to Paris. The man, known as Mohammed, stayed at Amanda Keller's unit in the Sandpiper Apartment complex on Airport Avenue in April.

- Keller’s mother and sister described him as “tall, lanky and quiet”

Keller’s neighbors said he was “about 25, 5 feet 10 inches, 160 pounds” which is closer to tall and lanky than Atta who was 5 feet 8 inches (and 32)

http://911myths.com/html/strip_clubs.html

In 2006 Keller again denied that Atta was her boyfriend and said she lied to Hopsicker:

“the former Venice stripper now says her boyfriend was another flight student not connected to 9/11

[…]

"It was my bad for lying," Keller said. "I really didn't think about it until after I did it."

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll...6/1007/BUSINESS

What evidence is there beyond Keller’s now retracted say so that she was Atta’s girlfriend?

5. Hearsay is not witness testimony but that of a person or persons who are testifying about something they were told but which the did not witness themselves:

OK you got me there. I’d have to look over Hopsicker’s articles to see if he uses hearsay. However he often cites anonymous sources and reaches conclusions not supported by his cited evidence.

What sort of evidence would you accept that Atta was Takfiri. a membership card?

[Len Colby]

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/sveniot/nph/nph8.html

Neither Griffin nor Chlodohofski (sp?) provide proper citations for newspaper articles including only the publication date and name of periodical but omitting the article title, author or links and normally don’t provide exact quotes thus making checking their claims an unduly arduous task.

Why one must wonder don't they do so?

[Evan Burton]

I, too, much prefer links but the minimum has been provided. As long as you can get the publication title and date, your search is limited to a discrete range. The article title is helpful, and certainly desirable, but not actually required.

Where they haven't provided an accurate quote DOES prove to be a problem. it could mean that "this is what I think the article said" rather than the actual words used. We are all very well aware that different people can take radically different meanings from the same group of words.

[Len Colby]

I, too, much prefer links but the minimum has been provided. As long as you can get the publication title and date, your search is limited to a discrete range. The article title is helpful, and certainly desirable, but not actually required.

Where they haven't provided an accurate quote DOES prove to be a problem. it could mean that "this is what I think the article said" rather than the actual words used. We are all very well aware that different people can take radically different meanings from the same group of words.

I disagree, in your scenario one would have to:

· Find the ‘advanced search’ page of the publication

· Set the date range and figure out which keywords to search

· Possibly choose among several matches

· If the article isn’t free either pay or Google the title to see if there is a free copy online.

One would have to repeat all steps for every citation (except the first one when searching for articles from the same publication).

To be fair Griffin did reference most/all the articles to the 9/11 Timeline but even so the process of tracking down the actual article is just as arduous especially since about half the links on it don’t work.

An Internet search for ‘citation’ will produce numerous hits for educational sites (colleges/universities, libraries, schools etc) though exact formatting may vary all agree that article name and author (when provided) must be included.

That Griffin and Chossudovsky, who use their status as respected professors emeritus to give thei work respectability, should provide such inadequate citations is especially appalling. It’s not like they can claim they didn’t know what was expected. I assume that if one of their students provided such incomplete citations they rightfully would have given them a F or handed it back, that what my high school teachers (not to mention my college profs) would have done.

I imagine if someone was confident their sources backed their claims they would make a reasonable effort to facilitate their readers’ ability to reach them. They didn’t

[Guest David Guyatt]

1. does anyone present know if academic Roland Jacquard takes, or does not take, or has ever (or never) taken recreational drugs?

I’ve seen no evidence he does.

What you've seen, or not seen, amounts to very little indeed. The questions was does anyone "know".

2. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

Not relevant since there is no indication Jacquard is a cokehead. I admit I’ve snorted a few lines in my life time but repeated use seems to effect memory

The question posed did not reference an individual but a class of profession/s. And on the basis of your admitted use I could equally describe you as a "cokehead" using your biased methods. But that would be wildly inaccurate and unfair of me.

“In the late 1980s, researchers began noticing another type of blood flow disturbance associated with cocaine use. This second type involved less dramatic but more persistent reductions in cerebral blood flow that could lead to difficulties concentrating, slowed thought processes, and memory deficits.

Which may have a profound effect on the quants and other whizz-kids on Wall Street, London and other financial centres -- not to mention the jet-set, royal families, politicians, members of government and a plethora of other acceptable members of society. ? Under your biased terms of use all of them are "cokeheads". However, a proper definition of coke-head is a "heavy user of cocaine", not a recreational user.

3. Is there any evidence that French terror expert Roland Jacques with "close ties to his country's intelligence services" (see:

http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/documents/1006.pdf.)

can be safely regarded as being "independent" --- or do his close ties and access to classified intelligence reports more strongly suggest that he is not really independent but rather an intelligence asset?

Is there any evidence he can’t be trusted? Is there any evidence to undermine his conclusion? Do you think French intelligence was “in on it”? In on it to the extent that we can’t trust a recognized expert with “close ties” to them?

The question asked if he independent or an intelligence asset. It's a simple question If he is an intelligence asset then he is not independent. The rest of the rambling is the usual deflective nonsense.

4. Does anyone present know if there is any journalistic - or law enforcement - convention that forbids or frowns upon a reporter - or law enforcement officer using witness testimony - specifically the testimony of the girlfriend of the accused -- in gathering information (for a story or a prosecutor) about the accused?

No but if the ex-girlfriend is a coke head stripper the reader/jurors way take that into consideration when weighing her credibility. Especially if her neighbors said her boyfriend Mohamed WASN”T Mohamed Atta:

Please provide evidence that she is a "cokehead"?

"The first photo they [Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) agents] showed us was the pilot who crashed into the first building, [i.e. Mohamed Atta] " Vonnie LaConca said. "It was not Mohamed [i.e. Keller’s boyfriend] or his friend. But the last picture they showed us was very close, but I could not say 100 percent that it was him."

.

For the sake of accuracy would you care to also post the other part of this Atta identification story -- or must I as usual do it for you (and yes Peter, you're oh so right)?

Also please confirm or deny if you have read Hopsicker's book on Atta just so the forum is made fully aware of the extent of your kowledge (or your lack of it) - as well as the usual ethical lapses.

What sort of evidence would you accept that Atta was Takfiri. a membership card?

Reliable independent evidence. Not your say so or the say so of a probably corrupted source.

Edited February 28, 2008 by David Guyatt