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Jack White
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Evan,

I fail to see how my response to Paul constitutes a “personal attack” but his post that I was replying to doesn’t. I both cases we were ribbing each other. In any case saying someone is “detach(ed) from reality” is quite mild by forum standards.

Len

I agree with Len, Evan: I dished it out, and Len merely returned fire. Fair enough.

That said, I take my hat off to you for making a stand against someone from the side with which you are so closely identified.

Paul

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This video clearly shows WTC 1 suffering a buckling and collapse at the impact site, without the need for any demolitions.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...41151&q=WTC

I was two blocks away when the towers came down. My first view of the scene was the fire in the North Tower, and the first thing I blurted out when I saw the fire was "that tower is in danger of collapse." I could see immediately that there was nothing the FDNY could do to prevent it, even though they are the bravest of the brave.

The exact manner of the collapse surprised me. I imagined that the towers would fall over like a tree, but I had forgotten the power of gravity. Since then I have avoided any discussion of the demolition theory, even though (or because) my youngest son is a fanatical proponent of the theory. I made an exception when I opened up this thread and I can only say that the demolition theory seems as dead as a doornail. In particular, I strongly agree with Mr. McKenna that it is ludicrous to suggest that the Silverstein entities had a motive to participate in the destruction of their own UNDER-INSURED property.

The idea that a government might stage an attack on its own people as a pretext for war is, unfortunately, something we have to be concerned about, even in a democratic country like America, but 9/11 simply does not fit the bill.

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Randy,

I take your point, but unless you can speak to everyone yourself, I think it is reasonable to at least quote a source. BTW, there is a reasonable amount of first hand evidence:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/flight93-air-traffic.htm

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Unite...3_-_Phone_calls

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Unite...lines_Flight_93

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=18...szvAw&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfR4YchCwLQ&hl=en

There is also the exhibits submitted as evidence. If you are not going to accept them - at least to discuss whether they are correct or not - then you are saying that nothing in the judicial system is acceptable unless you, personally, spoke to the witness / saw it yourself.

http://www.911myths.com/flight93.transcript.pdf

http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html

Evan,

Of course i know that. I was simply making a point -which i think is fairly clear (it was to my flatmate who read my post) to some stranger who was being rude to me.

Randy

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Len,

Couldn't make it past your first sentence.

Happily for me, i have no need to be "justified" in your eyes nor do i care one whit what you think regarding me.

You fired the first shot, i had someone else read your post to make sure it wasn't my imagination. I have no interest in engaging in a war of words with you.

Besides, there's no challenge in it.

R.D.

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Len,

Couldn't make it past your first sentence.

Translation: “You showed that I was completely wrong and I don’t have a good reply so I’ll pretend I didn’t read the rest of your post.”

You fired the first shot, i had someone else read your post to make sure it wasn't my imagination.
I was simply making a point -which i think is fairly clear (it was to my flatmate who read my post) to some stranger who was being rude to me.

Then your flatmate must be as thin-skinned and/or paranoid as you. Which part of my post did the two of you think constituted “being rude to [you]”/ fir[ing] the first shot”? The only part that could be considered impolite was the 2nd paragraph:

Steve Turner started a thread about flt 93 that stretched to several pages, rather rehash points that have already been discussed there go over it and see if there are any points you still have doubts about.

It that upset you than I doubt you’ll be able to discuss anything with people who have differing view points and frankly a “newbie” on a forum should use the search feature to see if a point they want to raise has already been discussed.

To make a long story short you saw a video which had a quote taken out of context and were taken in. You seem to have gotten upset because I pointed this out. If you had done some basic research you would have discovered that Wally Miller never indicated that he ever really doubted that a plane full of people crashed at the abandoned strip mine near Shanksville PA. If you had done a forum search you would have discovered this has already been discussed.

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You know, i actually have "Loose Change" and i have viewed both the early and later edition from end to end; and nowhere is it said that the FDNY "are in on 9/11". In fact a group of firemen are on camera talking about feeling and hearing a series of explosions.

Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time?

I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious.

R.D.

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You know, i actually have "Loose Change" and i have viewed both the early and later edition from end to end; and nowhere is it said that the FDNY "are in on 9/11". In fact a group of firemen are on camera talking about feeling and hearing a series of explosions.

Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time?

I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious.

R.D.

My understanding is that Alex Jones had made the statements about the FDNY. See the following.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/alexjonesv...ndlarrysilverst

Please note that Alex Jones' statements about the FDNY are documented here and in other quarters, Len didn't invent them. Also 'Loose Change' has been debunked in some fairly respectable venues and is considered to be one of the more flawed and easily debunked of the conspiracy theory presentations.

This isn't just opinion. Have you seen Screw Loose Change and the myriad of sites which have challenged Loose Change? Any fair and objective dialogue should include both sides of an issue.

Id like to know how Len's presentation of this information is obnoxious and rude?

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Guest Stephen Turner
Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time?

I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious.

R.D.

If you wish to discuss the issue at hand please do, but lay off the personal insults.

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You know, i actually have "Loose Change" and i have viewed both the early and later edition from end to end; and nowhere is it said that the FDNY "are in on 9/11". In fact a group of firemen are on camera talking about feeling and hearing a series of explosions.

Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time?

It seems you have difficulty comprehending what you read. Nowhere in the title of this thread or my post did I indicate that such an accusation was made in Loose Change. It is even implicit from my title was that it wasn’t in the film. If some says the writer/producer/director/star etc of a movie, made a statement but not that it was made in the movie most people would understand they did so elsewhere.

You also quite obviously didn’t even bother to watch the video I provided the link , if you had you would have seen/heard Jason Dumbass saying twice that NYC fire fighters were bribed into silence.

I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious.

Peter Mckenna wrote:

Id like to know how Len's presentation of this information is obnoxious and rude?

I like Peter want to know what exactly I’ve said that you think is “obnoxious and rude”? Not counting of course replies to insults from others, I really can’t hold a candle to you in that department.

I’m not at all surprised that you are shooting off your mouth once again without having your facts straight. “I'm curious, is that a natural talent or” ‘did your parents raise you to accuse people of lying without bothering to check if you had your facts straight?’ “I'm just curious.”

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You know, i actually have "Loose Change" and i have viewed both the early and later edition from end to end; and nowhere is it said that the FDNY "are in on 9/11". In fact a group of firemen are on camera talking about feeling and hearing a series of explosions.

Have you even watched it? Or do you just make stuff up and then throw it on here in an effort to waste time?

I mean, discourteous doesn't even begin to cover your conduct; you're just flat out obnoxious and rude. I'm curious, is that a natural talent or is that how your parents raised you to behave toward others? I'm just curious.

R.D.

My understanding is that Alex Jones had made the statements about the FDNY. See the following.

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/alexjonesv...ndlarrysilverst

Please note that Alex Jones' statements about the FDNY are documented here and in other quarters, Len didn't invent them. Also 'Loose Change' has been debunked in some fairly respectable venues and is considered to be one of the more flawed and easily debunked of the conspiracy theory presentations.

This isn't just opinion. Have you seen Screw Loose Change and the myriad of sites which have challenged Loose Change? Any fair and objective dialogue should include both sides of an issue.

Id like to know how Len's presentation of this information is obnoxious and rude?

Well, the statement is "Alex Jones AND the producers of Loose Change"; i know little of the former so i addressed the latter.

Define "debunk". Because there are lots of people claiming to have debunked lots of things: 'cell phones possible from an airliner' -debunked; 'cell phone calls impossible from an airliner' -debunked. How many times has Time magazine claimed to "debunk" the 'JFK conspiracies'? I don't know how many issues i've seen claim that. People claim to 'debunk' the existence of God. It seems obvious to me, that when someone claims to have "debunked" an idea; what that really means is they're opposed to the idea and then try to persuade you to their point of view. And yes, i've read a lot of this.

I would rather hear from someone with an open mind, without an agenda, who can back up what they say.

I'm not getting involved: Loose Change was right or not!! I mean, talk about losing sight of the bigger picture.

Oh, and "Screw Loose Change"? Now there's someone who sounds like an open mind and no agenda.

Randy

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I think Len's general attitude is obnoxious and rude, i think he was toward me in his post of: May 25 2008, 12:00 AM, where i was talking about a documentary. I didn't say anything to deserve that, and i addressed that in my follow-up post.

It's an attitude i've seen displayed toward others in many, many other posts -without being provoked first.

Stephen, i should lay off the personal insults??

"It seems you have difficulty comprehending what you read..." - Len

"...seen/heard Jason Dumbass saying twice..." - Len

"I’m not at all surprised that you are shooting off your mouth once again without having your facts straight. “I'm curious, is that a natural talent or” ‘did your parents raise you to accuse people of lying without bothering to check if you had your facts straight?’ “I'm just curious.” - Len. Who is quoting me at the end, and can't even do it accurately despite it being right there on the screen.

Besides, i'm showing a genuine interest in his upbringing and personality in order to get to know him better, how is that insulting?

But hey, if i'm the bad guy, okay. Mea culpa.

Mea maxima culpa,

Randy

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Peter,

I appreciate the response.

And aye, i knew that. People can only get you angry if you take them seriously, you know what i mean?

I had a dear flatmate who is a philosopher, and i'm a poet -oh my, the discussions we would have i thought my head would explode. Rather, i learned debate and logic and deduction (and philosophy tricks)....from the school of hard knocks, as it were.

Regards,

Randy

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I think Len's general attitude is obnoxious and rude,
It's an attitude i've seen displayed toward others in many, many other posts -without being provoked first.

Care to elaborate / provide examples? Do you like Charles Drago and Peter Lemkin object to contrary viewpoints being expressed here?

i think he was toward me in his post of: May 25 2008, 12:00 AM, where i was talking about a documentary. I didn't say anything to deserve that, and i addressed that in my follow-up post.

You have yet to explain what I said that you found so offensive. If you had to check with someone else to make sure you were being insulted how offensive could the supposed insult have been? In response to one supposed slight you’ve repeatedly insulted me on three different threads.

Stephen, i should lay off the personal insults??

"It seems you have difficulty comprehending what you read..." - Len

"I’m not at all surprised that you are shooting off your mouth once again without having your facts straight. “I'm curious, is that a natural talent or” ‘did your parents raise you to accuse people of lying without bothering to check if you had your facts straight?’ “I'm just curious.” - Len.

Those were in response to false accusations/insinuations on your part that I was making things up. False accusations based on your misreading of what I had written and an unwillingness to verify your (erroneous) belief I was wrong. How would you have responded if some one had done that to you?

[Len] Who is quoting me at the end, and can't even do it accurately despite it being right there on the screen.

Once again you missed the obvious. I intentionally adapted your quote to fit the situation since you accused me of lying without getting your facts straight. Note the varying use of single and double quotation marks. I cut and paste your original statement; if I had intended to quote you word for word it would have been a lot easier to have left it as it was. And while we’re on the subject of ones inability to quote someone “accurately despite it being right there on the screen” I used the word ‘producer’ (singular) not ‘producerS’ in the title of the thread, Jason ‘the FDNY was bought off’ Bermas is officially the ‘producer’ of the most recent edition of the film. http://www.loosechange911.com/crew.shtml

Also complaining that I threw one of your insults back at you but claiming that when you said it, it wasn’t an insult is plain bizarre.

Besides, i'm showing a genuine interest in his upbringing and personality in order to get to know him better, how is that insulting?

Were you being sarcastic or insincere? I too was “showing a genuine interest in [your] upbringing and personality in order to get to know [you] better, how is that insulting?” :rolleyes::ice:lol::rolleyes::ice:lol::rolleyes::ice:lol:

"...seen/heard Jason Dumbass saying twice..." – Len

Mr. Bermas is a public figure and not a member of this forum I’m under no obligation to be polite when referring to him, should I refrain from insulting Bush? At times I refer to him and his father as “Baby Doc” and “Poppa Doc” Bush should I stop?

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Well, the statement is "Alex Jones AND the producers of Loose Change"; i know little of the former so i addressed the latter.

Define "debunk". Because there are lots of people claiming to have debunked lots of things: 'cell phones possible from an airliner' -debunked; 'cell phone calls impossible from an airliner' -debunked. How many times has Time magazine claimed to "debunk" the 'JFK conspiracies'? I don't know how many issues i've seen claim that. People claim to 'debunk' the existence of God. It seems obvious to me, that when someone claims to have "debunked" an idea; what that really means is they're opposed to the idea and then try to persuade you to their point of view.

You could say the same about words and phrases like “prove”, “fact” and “obvious lie” (and their variants) they are quite often abused as well..

And yes, i've read a lot of this.

I would rather hear from someone with an open mind, without an agenda, who can back up what they say.

A funny thing I noted about several “truthers” is they aren’t shy about championing movies/videos/books etc that promote their POV but expect debunkings to be 'balanced'. If you really had looked at debunking sites you would have noticed that the vast majority do “back up what they say”. Once again you seem to be making a statement based on an assumption that you didn’t bother to verify. You’re supposed to verify that you have your facts straight before posting here.

I'm not getting involved: Loose Change was right or not!! I mean, talk about losing sight of the bigger picture.

1) Loose Change is probably the best known piece of “truther” propaganda.

2) All (or almost all) of the fallacies in the various versions of Loose Change are repeated in other “truther” websites/books/videos etc.

The film and especially the claims in it are “the bigger picture”.

Oh, and "Screw Loose Change"? Now there's someone who sounds like an open mind and no agenda.

Will you avoid reading “The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions” because its title clearly indicates the author has an agenda?

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