Is anyone interested in Apollo missions...

[Len Colby]

1. does anyone present know if academic Roland Jacquard takes, or does not take, or has ever (or never) taken recreational drugs?

I’ve seen no evidence he does.

What you've seen, or not seen, amounts to very little indeed. The questions was does anyone "know".

To make a long story short, you have no indication he does drugs.

[Len Colby]

.

2. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

Not relevant since there is no indication Jacquard is a cokehead. I admit I’ve snorted a few lines in my life time but repeated use seems to effect memory

The question posed did not reference an individual but a class of profession/s. And on the basis of your admitted use I could equally describe you as a "cokehead" using your biased methods. But that would be wildly inaccurate and unfair of me.

So it’s a coincidence you referenced Jacquard’s “class of profession/s”?

“In the late 1980s, researchers began noticing another type of blood flow disturbance associated with cocaine use. This second type involved less dramatic but more persistent reductions in cerebral blood flow that could lead to difficulties concentrating, slowed thought processes, and memory deficits.

Which may have a profound effect on the quants and other whizz-kids on Wall Street, London and other financial centres -- not to mention the jet-set, royal families, politicians, members of government and a plethora of other acceptable members of society. ? Under your biased terms of use all of them are "cokeheads". However, a proper definition of coke-head is a "heavy user of cocaine", not a recreational user. .

No, if they were habitual users it would be fair to question the accuracy of their memories as well.

3. Is there any evidence that French terror expert Roland Jacques with "close ties to his country's intelligence services" (see: http://old.911digitalarchive.org/crr/documents/1006.pdf.) can be safely regarded as being "independent" --- or do his close ties and access to classified intelligence reports more strongly suggest that he is not really independent but rather an intelligence asset?

Is there any evidence he can’t be trusted? Is there any evidence to undermine his conclusion? Do you think French intelligence was “in on it”? In on it to the extent that we can’t trust a recognized expert with “close ties” to them?

The question asked if he independent or an intelligence asset. It's a simple question If he is an intelligence asset then he is not independent. The rest of the rambling is the usual deflective nonsense. .

All you have is a single sentence from a single article stating he has "close ties to his country's intelligence services" which is not surprising considering his area of specialty. That is as specious as the people who believe the moon landings were faked dismissing out of hand the opinions of engineers and scientists who have ties to NASA.

Do you have any indication French intelligence was “in on” 9/11? If not dismissing Jaquard for his ties to them is “the usual deflective nonsense”. By your standards you must reject the story that the head of the ISI wired Atta money because it is based solely on the word on anonymous Indian intelligence officials.

4. Does anyone present know if there is any journalistic - or law enforcement - convention that forbids or frowns upon a reporter - or law enforcement officer using witness testimony - specifically the testimony of the girlfriend of the accused -- in gathering information (for a story or a prosecutor) about the accused?

No but if the ex-girlfriend is a coke head stripper the reader/jurors way take that into consideration when weighing her credibility. Especially if her neighbors said her boyfriend Mohamed WASN”T Mohamed Atta: Please provide evidence that she is a "cokehead"?.

I thought she admitted to doing coke with “Mohamed” as well. Hopsicker reported that she, another girl and Atta went on “a non-stop 3-day drug-and booze-filled romp in Key West” during which “they didn't sleep”. In any case its not unreasonable to assume a stripper/escort/lingerie model who went on such a “3 day romp” and claims she lived with a coke dealer/cokehead used blow herself.

Hopsicker also reports she was arrested for passing bad check’s. That’s some star witness you’ve got.

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc302004.html

”For the sake of accuracy would you care to also post the other part of this Atta identification story -- or must I as usual do it for you (and yes Peter, you're oh so right)?”

I don’t remember seeing anything conclusive. Some witnesses said Keller’s boyfriend was Atta, others said he wasn’t. I find Hopsicker to be very long winded, i.e. he has high verbage/evidence ratio (Griffin at least is succinct) so I might have missed some.

There is a seeming contradiction between Keller’s and one her supporting witnesses accounts. The neighbor said he beat her up but I don’t recall he ever saying this. She said she dumped him at a club because he “had a flabby ass” and embarrassed her because he danced poorly at a club they went to and shcked up with a new lover that very night.

There is a problem with Hopsicker’s theory. Keller said “Atta” told her he had a 9-year-old son in France. One of the neighbors IDed Keller’s boyfriend as Atta said he claimed to be French. But I’ve not seen any evidence Atta ever visited France let alone lived there, let alone had a son there or anywhere else. A kid who was 9 in April – March 2000 would have been conceived between July 1990 and August 1991, but I’ve seen no evidence he left Egypt before July 1992 when he moved to Hamburg.

But as even Hopsicker acknowledges, a “French-Arab” pilot who studied at Huffman named “Mohamed” says he was Keller’s boyfriend and this seems matches up with her retractions on which see said it really was some other Mohammed from the school. Mohamed is of course a common Arab name and according to several accounts there were a lot of Arabs learning to fly in Florida.

Keller’s “Mohamed” was very different from the Atta described by people who knew him:

One of his fellow students from the university in Hamburg said:

“Mohamed was a very well educated person and he was a religious person…I did not have the impression of being fanatic but it was a very strict religious orientation. He had his prayer five times a day and he practiced Ramadan. I don't know if he had taken part at the Haj, if he travelled to Mecca, he didn't tell me. But I didn't get the impression of being fanatic. He was very strict but not fanatic.”

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/hauth.htm

Another fellow student said:

“…he was passionate but at the same time he was very, he was calm so he was a serious and calm person but when he got upset about something he became passionate…there were two things made him passionate. One was actually the ongoing war in Yugoslavia, the Bosnian War…he was very very angry about the fact that the international community would gather in order to attack Saddam Hussein but they would not gather in order to prevent the Israelis attacking Palestinians…one thing [he got passionate about] was the US influence actually in the Middle East, the other thing was the Yugoslavian civil war and these were very hot topics he'd get upset about”

“He was very religious as many others are in Cairo so he was particularly religious in terms of people I know and also of friends I use to have later on in Cairo though I had some more actually who were also as religious but not… in another way then so he was, he was very religious. He prayed five times a day and he used to listen to on the radio or on the cassette and but that was actually something very normal. I met many other people who were very similar to him then … then I met him in '94 he wasn't as religious as he had become in summer '95 already as far as I can observe it looking back.”

“he had a very very conservative approach to Islam…I mean the way you read Koran, which is something like singing. Well I made the mistake to say singing and then he got really upset and because naturally singing is not allowed in his interpretation of… because music's something sinful in order to distract people from the right path”

“…that made things also very difficult for him in the long run to live in Hamburg because as religious and conservative in his religion as he was, it was difficult for him to communicate to other people who would not know enough actually about these issues and so there was a lack of of exchange I think and so he necessarily had to become more secluded on these issues I think when living in Hamburg and I think he was suffering from this because he felt really alienated…from his surrounding”

“He didn't drink alcohol and he wouldn't mess with women”

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interv.../bodenstein.htm

His thesis supervisor at the university said:

“I do not remember friends of his, especially girls. No there had been no friends.”

“When he began as I told you he smiled often. Sometimes he laughed. He was more interested in several action, happening events. I saw him in several situations and this was till '95, '96 about then…He interrupted his studying and I do not know what happened but he wasn't here. Maybe that he had knocked on my door I do not know and suddenly he came back maybe in 98 or maybe in the beginning of 99 to finish his master thesis and to work on his master thesis and when he came back as well as I remember there he had changed. He had a beard…the other thing what was changed was his face and his behaviour. He was, looking back, very very serious. He didn't smile as well as I remember”

“we gave him 1.0 and that's the best we can give him. And when he came in I went to him and said "hello Mohamed congratulations you have a diploma, you have finished" and a colleague of mine, a lady wanted to shake hands too, but Mohamed refused, no please understand me, … and she did not know that somebody wouldn't shake hands with a woman”

“…he was a very religious man. He was a Muslim. And he was an intellectual and if you are a man not having your feelings on the town as we say, thinking and being reserved you keep together your feeling in all your body”

“He didn't drink alcohol. Mohamed El-Amir didn't drink alcohol and I would put my hand in the fire that this Mohamed El-Amir I know will never taste or touch alcohol. …He refused a glass where somebody drank a beer because it smells something of beer. It was awful. The students who gave him not thinking the glass so that he could put his water, he was very angry that he offered him a glass where the students drank alcohol before, beer before.”

“…he was a man who prayed regularly, who lived as the Koran said”.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/machule.htm

A partner at a company he worked (part time) for from 1992 – 97 decribed him as, “ ‘introverted and very reserved', but also as 'flexible' and 'very conscientious'…'He prayed in the office. We'd never had anyone do that before.' ”

“Hannelore Haase, who owned the shop at the corner of the street where Atta shared a flat with two other Arab men remembered all three wearing traditional garb of baggy trousers and flowing kaftans.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/2...ber11.education

So a few years later did Atta become the “very polite” extroverted hard drinking, womanizing, coke snorting and dealing, party animal with "dark, perfect" skin who wore a Speedo by the pool who lived with a pink haired stripper/ “out call lingerie model” described by those who knew “Mohamed”?

A female student at Huffman who saw Atta and Al-Shehhi on “virtually on a day to day basis” “sometimes twice a day” (i.e. after he broke up with Keller) said:

“he had a terribly sad expression on his face. Totally unemotionaless cold eyes”

“they never talked. I never saw them talk to anybody on the ground. They seemed to just come, fly and then inevitably go into the computer room and they seemed to spend an enormous amount…And then there was one occasion, [while they were on the computer] when I thought this was totally out of character. I suddenly heard this outburst of merriment and I thought my goodness me you know so they are human after all” [she said this was “it was certainly round about” the time of the USS Cole attack]

“you're never seeing any emotion on this man's face…He was rather pale in comparison to Al-Shehhi and he must have had measles or something or chicken pox or something very severely as a child because the you know the skin was pitted. Deep sort of pockets still in the skin. Ah but it was just this sort of almost dead expression. Just no life in him whatsoever. Robotic. Not a flicker of emotion or excitement or anything. Nothing at all.”

“it was so extremely hot at this stage out there most of us were attired in relatively cool clothing however Mohamed Atta was always very formally dressed I felt always neatly pressed trousers of a wool type. A shirt and a waist coat to match the trousers very often.”

“…as I got closer outstretched my arm to retrieve my cushion because I had learnt by now it was no good speaking to them because they never responded and as I did so just stretch my arm out, Al-Shehhi was walking behind him immediately in a defensive position put his arm between Mohamed Atta and myself. It was such a rapid movement that sort of alarmed me for a moment because all I wanted was my cushion back and yet it was obvious that I had nothing else in my hand.”

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/greaves.htm

FWIW Dekkers’ description is close to the student’s and said “Atta was an asshole first class”

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/interviews/dekkers.htm

Keller now says her boyfriend was the other Mohamed, a “French –Arab” named Mohamed claims he was her boyfriend, some of the people who knew Keller’s boyfriend gave descriptions of him that are at odds with Atta. Hopsicker said the two Mohameds looked nothing alike but didn’t produce a photo of the 2nd one. And speaking of photos, there aren’t any of Atta with Keller. My best guess is that he was a “tall lanky” “very handsome guy” with “"dark, perfect" ““beautiful, unblemished skin" “about…5 feet 10 inches, 160 pounds” as opposed to the 5’ 8” Atta with pale skin and a pockmarked face and in early 2000 had a 9-year-old son who loved the Beastie Boys.

Also please confirm or deny if you have read Hopsicker's book on Atta just so the forum is made fully aware of the extent of your kowledge (or your lack of it) –

I never claimed to have read the book or insinuated I did. I read chapter 1 and looked at the Appendix both of which he has online other than that no, but I’ve read most of his Atta articles

There are inconsistencies in Hopsicker’s tale, sometimes such as in issue 30 of his newletter he claims the two were together in early 2001

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc302004.html

But one issue earlier in early 2000

http://www.madcowprod.com/issue29.html

And no, neither was a typo. But it gets worse; he doctored a quote. In issue 30 he quoted Tony LaConca from an article in the Sun-Herald

" "While in Key West Attaintroduced the girls to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," he stated. "I thought it was strange at the time, because Mohamed didn't appear to be German." "

But the actual quote was:

“"The two girls were introduced to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," Tony LaConca continued. "I thought it was strange, because Mohamed didn't appear to be French-Canadian or German." "

Neither LaConca or his wife ever called “Mohamed” “Atta” and she said Atta WAS’T Mohamed. They described him as “polite” which contradicts other people’s description of Atta and said Keller told them “Mohamed” “was going to school at Huffman Aviation in Venice to train for a commercial pilot's license” but Atta already had a commercial license.

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/091401/tp4ch14.htm

”as well as the usual ethical lapses.”

You’re as charming as a junkyard dog.

[Len Colby]

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie

Peter you are one of the worst people I’ve ever had the displeasure to come across on the Net or in person.

It’s not about believing me. I documented all my claims. If they are inaccurate or my reasoning is flawed you are free to challenge them.

You want to insinuate that I'm a xxxx? Can show any evidence that is the case?

Edited:quote from prior post and modify remark on this post

Edited February 29, 2008 by Kathy Beckett

[Guest David Guyatt]

a. Do you have any evidence that Amanda Keller is a "cokehead"? Not a recreational user. But a "cokehead" --- your word?

Yes or no?

b. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

c. Is there any evidence showing that French terror expert Roland Jacques (who has been liked with the French intelligence )can be safely regarded as "independent"?

[Guest David Guyatt]

Len Colby said:

Quote:

But as even Hopsicker acknowledges, a “French-Arab” pilot who studied at Huffman named “Mohamed” says he was Keller’s boyfriend and this seems matches up with her retractions on which see said it really was some other Mohammed from the school. Mohamed is of course a common Arab name and according to several accounts there were a lot of Arabs learning to fly in Florida.

Unquote

And:

quote:

Hopsicker reported that she, another girl and Atta went on “a non-stop 3-day drug-and booze-filled romp in Key West” during which “they didn't sleep”.

unquote

And:

Quote:

Hopsicker also reports she [Amanda Keller] was arrested for passing bad check’s.

Unquote

All of which demonstrate high journalistic standards of fairness and accuracy.

Meanwhile on accuracy:

Quote:

But it gets worse; he [Hopsicker] doctored a quote. In issue 30 he quoted Tony LaConca from an article in the Sun-Herald

" "While in Key West Atta introduced the girls to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," he stated. "I thought it was strange at the time, because Mohamed didn't appear to be German." "

But the actual quote was:

“"The two girls were introduced to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," Tony LaConca continued. "I thought it was strange, because Mohamed didn't appear to be French-Canadian or German."

Unquote

Please provide evidence this is doctoring and not an error in placing the quotation marks at the beginning of a rewritten and more succinct and less clumsy intro (5 words as opposed to 8 words) rather than where I would have placed it if I were copying it:

---The two girls were introduced 'to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," he stated. "I thought it was strange at the time, because Mohamed didn't appear to be German."

And, of course, the all important missing piece of internationally significant description: "French-Canadian" -- which is clearly an error of omission and not the act of doctoring.

http://dictionary.die.net/doctoring:

3. To tamper with and arrange for one's own purposes; to

falsify; to adulterate; as, to doctor election returns; to

doctor whisky. [slang]

Time pressure, the need to limit word count, and far more importantly, the lack of a proof-reader (one becomes chief cook, bottle wash and waiter when you're a Freelancer) necessarily have their unavoidable consequences in a higher error ratio than a reporter working for the Washington Post for example.

Edited February 29, 2008 by David Guyatt

[Len Colby]

The fake quote was not the only made up fact in that issue of the newsletter. Hopsicker wrote:

“Even more incredibly, Tony Laconca's then-wife Vonnie told authorities that she had learned that her former cleaning company employee got a phone call from Atta during the week before the Sept.11 attack.”

He conflated and confused two unrelated parts of the story. From the cited article:

“In an effort to locate Keller, the [FDLE] agent accompanied Tony LaConca to the North Port Police Department to pick up a Feb. 25 police report in which Keller had called police about harassing cell phone calls.

According to the police report, after Keller called police about the calls, a computer check was conducted and showed an outstanding warrant from Marion County on a worthless check charge.

"Mohamed bailed her out of South County Jail," Vonnie LaConca said….”

[9 paragraphs later]

"The couple learned more about Mohamed from a then-employee of Vonnie's cleaning company. After meeting Mohamed and Keller on Feb. 21, the former employee joined the couple on an adventure to Key West the following day.”

- The calls were made before February 25, 6 ½ months before 9/11

- The is no indication who the calls were from, it would have been odd if he made the calls then bailed her out. The calls probably happened during the weekend when “Mohamed” was with her.

- Vonnie LaConca was still married to her husband Tony.

- She that Keller not her ex-employee got the calls

- She never said she learned about the calls from the ex-employee

It’s hard to fathom Hopsicker’s error on one hand it’s hard to believe he would intentionally altered so many facts which would suggest he had written that part from memory but on the other hand he directly quoted the article several times. In any case if he could so misconstrue a newspaper article how much faith can we put into his claims about what people told him especially his anonymous sources?

But Hopsicker’s creative imagination didn’t stop with:

omitting that the LaConcas never said “Mohamed” was Atta and that Vonnie said he wasn’t Atta

the fabricated quote and

the above.

He also wrote:

“It strains credulity that Atta would have "accidentally" bumped into German friends in tiny and remote Key West.”

But nowhere in the text was it suggested that “Mohamed” had ‘"accidentally" bumped into German friends”. The only linw about them was cited in post

All these errors were in a single newsletter. In another thread I documented various he made in his article about the Saudi VIP’s flying out of the US a few days after 9/11 including saying charter flights were still banned at the time when in fact they’d been Oked hours earlier.

Speaking of errors I made one. Hosicker didn’t indicate Keller and Atta had a relationship in “early 2001” as opposed to “early 2000” he wrote:

“The discovery that Amanda Keller had a year-long ("enamored of Mohamed") relationship with the terrorist ringleader…”

And that they had a relationship from “March of 2000, three months before the FBI’s chronology has him entering the U.S., to, at least, February 2001, almost a year later.”

My bad.

But it is interesting that Keller seemed to still be involved with “Mohamed” 9 month after they had supposedly broken up. I though the paper might have gotten the date wrong but it indicated Keller was working at a Papa John’s Pizzaria at the time and was manager there when the article was written but

A note to South Florida members of this forum, any of you interested in seeing if you can get access to the February 25, 2001 police report for the arrest of Amanda Keller and her complaint about the phone calls with the North Port Police Department (sent to South County Jail). Perhaps it will list the last name of the person who bailed her out.

[Len Colby]

Len Colby said:

Quote:

But as even Hopsicker acknowledges, a “French-Arab” pilot who studied at Huffman named “Mohamed” says he was Keller’s boyfriend and this seems matches up with her retractions on which see said it really was some other Mohammed from the school. Mohamed is of course a common Arab name and according to several accounts there were a lot of Arabs learning to fly in Florida.

Unquote

And:

quote:

Hopsicker reported that she, another girl and Atta went on “a non-stop 3-day drug-and booze-filled romp in Key West” during which “they didn't sleep”.

unquote

And:

Quote:

Hopsicker also reports she [Amanda Keller] was arrested for passing bad check’s.

Unquote

All of which demonstrate high journalistic standards of fairness and accuracy.

Not necessarily he claims that the 2nd Mohamed story was some sort of plot against him, it was already out in media, sounds like damage control/rationalization to me

He seemed to think the drug binge / Atta bailing her out story bolstered his case.

I found one more error he said the arrest/bailout happened “a few weeks later” when in fact it was the next day.They began the 3 day party on the 21st which thus ended on the 24th, she was arrested the 25th.

Meanwhile on accuracy:

Quote:

But it gets worse; he [Hopsicker] doctored a quote. In issue 30 he quoted Tony LaConca from an article in the Sun-Herald

" "While in Key West Atta introduced the girls to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," he stated. "I thought it was strange at the time, because Mohamed didn't appear to be German." "

But the actual quote was:

“"The two girls were introduced to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," Tony LaConca continued. "I thought it was strange, because Mohamed didn't appear to be French-Canadian or German."

Unquote

Please provide evidence this is doctoring and not an error in placing the quotation marks at the beginning of a rewritten and more succinct and less clumsy intro (5 words as opposed to 8 words) rather than where I would have placed it if I were copying it:

---The two girls were introduced 'to two men from Germany that they said were Mohamed's friends," he stated. "I thought it was strange at the time, because Mohamed didn't appear to be German."

Because he added Atta the LaConca’s never mentioned that name in the article.

And, of course, the all important missing piece of internationally significant description: "French-Canadian" -- which is clearly an error of omission and not the act of doctoring.

Even Hopsicker seemed to think that reinforced the previous descriptions of him as being French. It did seem relevant. Why would I want to omit that?

And speaking of lies of omission, Hopsicker omitted that Ms. LaConca said that “Mohamed” wasn’t Atta.

Time pressure, the need to limit word count, and far more importantly, the lack of a proof-reader (one becomes chief cook, bottle wash and waiter when you're a Freelancer) necessarily have their unavoidable consequences in a higher error ratio than a reporter working for the Washington Post for example.

What time pressure? I don’t think he had preset deadlines. Cutting and pasting the actual quote would have been less time consuming than rewriting the sentence. Hospicker’s version was longer not shorter. This is part of a pattern of errors

I also imagine you would be less generous if I or a writer you disagree with made a similar error.

[Len Colby]

a. Do you have any evidence that Amanda Keller is a "cokehead"? Not a recreational user. But a "cokehead" --- your word?

Yes or no?

No, I take back the cokehead claim.

b. Is there an evidence showing that professional strippers who take recreational drugs are any more likely to suffer memory damage than, say, professional academics taking the same recreational drugs with the same frequency?

Not that I know of, relevance?

c. Is there any evidence showing that French terror expert Roland Jacques (who has been liked with the French intelligence )can be safely regarded as "independent"?

What evidence would satisfy you?

Is a supposed close association with intelligence of a country that has no apperent vested interest in covering up 9/11 enough to discredit him?

So do you think the story that the head of the ISI wired Atta money baseless as well?

As for Atta being a Takfir in the late 90's he was such a fundametalist that he wouldn't let a woman touch him and got angry that he was offer water in a glass that had been used to drink beer and wore traditional Muslim attire. You think by April 2000 he was snorting and dealing coke, wearing Speedos and shacked up with a stipper/escort.

So either a) the fundamentalist stage was a several year farce

he suddenly and unexplainedly lost his faith

c) was a member of Takfir or a simiar group

d) Hopsicker and you are wrong

Take your pick IMO in order of probability

d), d) and c), c)

Edited February 29, 2008 by Len Colby

[Guest David Guyatt]

Len Colby said:

What evidence would satisfy you?

That he is known to be independent of an intelligence agency or not fronting an agenda -- as I said earlier.

Is a supposed close association with intelligence of a country that has no apperent vested interest in covering up 9/11 enough to discredit him?

AND

As for Atta being a Takfir in the late 90's he was such a fundametalist that he wouldn't let a woman touch him and got angry that he was offer water in a glass that had been used to drink beer and wore traditional Muslim attire. You think by April 2000 he was snorting and dealing coke, wearing Speedos and shacked up with a stipper/escort.

Perhaps you have never come across the well honed art of planting arms length fabricated stories that can then be picked up and republished as fact? This was a technique used to great effect in the early years of WWII by Sir William Stevenson, head of British Security Coordination in NYC. What BSC woud do is fabricate stories about Hitler and the Nazis that put them in conflict with the values and security needs of the USA. The would then pay t have the fabricated stories floated somewhere else in the world... Argentina, Switzerland, Portugal etc. Once published in one of those countries, BSC would then see to it that the story began to circulate in the US, citing the planted story as authentication of its reliability.

In this case there is the whiff that the claim that Mohamed Atta was a member of the Al Takfir wal Hijra sect is the result of such an intrigue. So the next question is do French intelligence "do" for the CIA? And the answer is a resounding yes. I personally know of cases where the CIA have contracted DGSE/SDECE to contract a freelance asset to perform sensitive arms length operations. Of course, this scenario could be even more subtle with the US merely doctoring an intelligence report that is then shared with friendly foreign intelligence agencies as part of the usual exchange of intelligence between friendly powers -- of which France is one.

The foregoing is by no means conclusive and don't claim it to be. But short of there being hard evidence that Atta really was a member of said sect (and I seriously do doubt this) then I am inclined more to the possible/probable explanation I have offered, because being named a member of this sect neatly - even ingeniously - nullifies that questions circulating about Atta the fundamentalists, unusual behaviour.

So do you think the story that the head of the ISI wired Atta money baseless as well?

I have no idea as I haven't looked at this is any detail. All I will say is that (short of assessing all the known facts surrounding the incident) why should it be surprising that a head of a friendly intelligence agency that is known to be deeply involved in the global drugs trade should wire money to a known drugs dealer?

On Hopsicker, in general I admire him for recognizing and then chasing a series of important story that no one else in the major media was interested in pursuing. Whatever errors he may have made, do not surprise me in the slightest, as I too made errors. In the real world it's all too simple to make mistakes as one's time has to be divided between tracking down witnesses, door-stepping them, chasing other leads, traveling, writing the story, proof-reading, caption writing, paying the bills, doing the accounts, worrying abut money etc., -- activities that a big media operation would assign to a battery of individuals (not just one) on an important story. Add to that the not inconsequential fact that he runs all this on a shoestring budget -- not multi-million one (been there, done that, got the T-shirt) and has health issues etc.

Overall he is to be congratulated, and not reprimanded -- especially by someone who has never undertaken a serious journalistic investigation in his life and who knows nothing about the trials and tribulations involved -- and who's entire experience in these matters is limited to an internet browser.

Edited March 1, 2008 by David Guyatt

[Len Colby]

Len Colby said:

What evidence would satisfy you?

That he is known to be independent of an intelligence agency or not fronting an agenda -- as I said earlier.

Unless one of us turns up new info, there is no use in continuing, were going in circles

Is a supposed close association with intelligence of a country that has no apperent vested interest in covering up 9/11 enough to discredit him?

AND

As for Atta being a Takfir in the late 90's he was such a fundametalist that he wouldn't let a woman touch him and got angry that he was offer water in a glass that had been used to drink beer and wore traditional Muslim attire. You think by April 2000 he was snorting and dealing coke, wearing Speedos and shacked up with a stipper/escort.

Perhaps you have never come across the well honed art of planting arms length fabricated stories that can then be picked up and republished as fact? This was a technique used to great effect in the early years of WWII by Sir William Stevenson, head of British Security Coordination in NYC. What BSC woud do is fabricate stories about Hitler and the Nazis that put them in conflict with the values and security needs of the USA. The would then pay t have the fabricated stories floated somewhere else in the world... Argentina, Switzerland, Portugal etc. Once published in one of those countries, BSC would then see to it that the story began to circulate in the US, citing the planted story as authentication of its reliability.

In this case there is the whiff that the claim that Mohamed Atta was a member of the Al Takfir wal Hijra sect is the result of such an intrigue. So the next question is do French intelligence "do" for the CIA? And the answer is a resounding yes. I personally know of cases where the CIA have contracted DGSE/SDECE to contract a freelance asset to perform sensitive arms length operations. Of course, this scenario could be even more subtle with the US merely doctoring an intelligence report that is then shared with friendly foreign intelligence agencies as part of the usual exchange of intelligence between friendly powers -- of which France is one.

The foregoing is by no means conclusive and don't claim it to be. But short of there being hard evidence that Atta really was a member of said sect (and I seriously do doubt this) then I am inclined more to the possible/probable explanation I have offered, because being named a member of this sect neatly - even ingeniously - nullifies that questions circulating about Atta the fundamentalists, unusual behaviour.

Do you think all the witnesses from Hamburg are lying? If not then you are avoiding my point the 92 - 99 Atta was totally different from the 2000 - 1 "Mohamed" described by Keller others. Either he sudden gave up his religion or "Mohamed" wasn't "Mohamed Atta". Keller now says he wasn't Atta, another Mohamed say he was the guy. According to one of the students at the flight school (and Dekker) Atta was still the same in 2000 as he had been in Germany.

So do you think the story that the head of the ISI wired Atta money baseless as well?

I have no idea as I haven't looked at this is any detail. All I will say is that (short of assessing all the known facts surrounding the incident) why should it be surprising that a head of a friendly intelligence agency that is known to be deeply involved in the global drugs trade should wire money to a known drugs dealer?

Atta doesn't really qualify as "a known drugs dealer" the only person who says he was has said twice since that she was lying

On Hopsicker, in general I admire him for recognizing and then chasing a series of important story that no one else in the major media was interested in pursuing. Whatever errors he may have made, do not surprise me in the slightest, as I too made errors. In the real world it's all too simple to make mistakes as one's time has to be divided between tracking down witnesses, door-stepping them, chasing other leads, traveling, writing the story, proof-reading, caption writing, paying the bills, doing the accounts, worrying abut money etc., -- activities that a big media operation would assign to a battery of individuals (not just one) on an important story. Add to that the not inconsequential fact that he runs all this on a shoestring budget -- not multi-million one (been there, done that, got the T-shirt) and has health issues etc.

Overall he is to be congratulated, and not reprimanded -- especially by someone who has never undertaken a serious journalistic investigation in his life and who knows nothing about the trials and tribulations involved -- and who's entire experience in these matters is limited to an internet browser.

Once again you wouldn't be so generous if such errors were made by someone you disagree with. In your previous post your inadvertantly torpedoed the case for the misquote being accidental. The original quote was a "more succinct and less clumsy intro (5 words as opposed to 8 words)" than Hopsicker's verson. Altering it was more time consuming than cutting and pasting. Did he accidentally "forget" to tell his readers Ms. Laconca said the guy wasn't Atta?

The screw up about the phone calls is fankly bizzare, perhaps he wrote that segment on Acid! (I say that as someone who has taken that drug on more than 1 occasion)

Edited March 1, 2008 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

The FBI also claims that they've been unable to figure out where Mohamed Atta was living between January and May of 2001. But numerous eyewitnesses told them where Atta had been living, so the real question becomes:

Why are they lying?

More mis/disinformation

Atta’s whereabouts January – May 2001 according to the 9/11 C. Report based mostly on FBI (and other USG agency) info:

Early January – Travels to Germany

Jan 10 - Returns to US

Jan. 10 (or perhaps shortly thereafter) – returns to Florida

Jan 25 – visited Georgia, staying briefly in Norcross and Decatur,

Jan 31 - Rented “a single-engine plane to fly with an instructor in Lawrenceville”

By Feb 19 – Virginia Beach, VA

Feb. 21 – Stone Mountain, GA

March 20 – Spoke to Jarrah on the phone

April 3 - Arrives in Virginia Beach, VA

April 4 – Closes PO box in Virginia Beach, VA

April 6, 9, 10 –Cell phone used to call “used numerous times to call various lodging establishments in Florida from cell sites within Florida.”

April 11 – Coral Springs, FL

April 26 – showed driver’s license at traffic stop (in FL according FBI report).

May 2 – DMV office in Lauderdale Lakes, FL

The applicable part of the FBI Timeline can be found here: http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/sourced...line106-210.pdf

See Pages 11 – 46 Covering Jan 1 – May 31 for additional info about Atta’s whereabouts

Excerpts from Chapter 7, Basis for above Timeline

“Atta traveled to Germany in early January 2001”

“Upon returning to Florida, Atta wired Binalshibh travel money”

“When Atta returned to Florida, Shehhi left for Morocco”

“Atta…encountered some difficulty reentering the United States, on January 10…”

“After returning to Florida from their trips, Atta and Shehhi visited Georgia, staying briefly in Norcross and Decatur, and renting a single-engine plane to fly with an instructor in Lawrenceville. By February 19,Atta and Shehhi were in Virginia. They rented a mailbox in Virginia Beach, cashed a check, and then promptly returned to Georgia, staying in Stone Mountain. We have found no explanation for these travels. In mid-March, Jarrah was in Georgia as well, staying in Decatur. There is no evidence that the three pilots met, although Jarrah and Atta apparently spoke on the phone. At the end of the month, Jarrah left the United States again and visited Senguen in Germany for two weeks. In early April, Atta and Shehhi returned to Virginia Beach and closed the mailbox they had opened in February.”

“The FBI has gathered evidence indicating that Atta was in Virginia Beach on April 4 (as evidenced by a bank surveillance camera photo), and in Coral Springs, Florida on April 11, where he and Shehhi leased an apartment. On April 6, 9, 10, and 11, Atta's cellular telephone was used numerous times to call various lodging establishments in Florida from cell sites within Florida.”

“Atta and Shehhi had already returned to Florida. On April 11, they moved into an apartment in Coral Springs. Atta stayed in Florida, awaiting the arrival of the first muscle hijackers.”

“Atta already had the license with him and presented it during a traffic stop on April 26”

Shehhi returned to Miami on May 2. That day, Atta and Jarrah were together, about 30 miles to the north, visiting a Department of Motor Vehicles office in Lauderdale Lakes, Florida, to get Florida driver's licenses.

Footnotes 72. For Atta and Shehhi staying in Norcross and Decatur, see FBI report, “Hijackers Timeline,” Dec. 5, 2003 (Jan. 25, 2001, entry citing 265A-NY-280350-3631; 265A-NY-280350-AT-141). For the plane rental in Lawrenceville, see ibid. (Jan. 31, 2001, entry citing 265A-NY-280350, serial 13850). These locations are all near Atlanta. For return to Virginia, see ibid. (citing 265A-NY-280350-NF-48). For mailbox rental, see ibid. (Feb. 20, 2001, entry citing 265A-NY-280350-NF-48, 51). For check cashing, see FBI report, “Summary of Penttbom Investigation,” Feb. 29, 2004, p. 26. For return to Georgia, see FBI report, “Hijackers Timeline,” Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 21, 2001, entry citing 65A-NY-280350-302, serial 49563). For Jarrah staying in Decatur, see FBI report, “Hijackers Timeline,” Dec. 5, 2003 (Mar. 15, 2001, entry citing 265A-NY-280350, serial 15661). For Atta-Jarrah call, see FBI letterhead memorandum, profile of Jarrah, Mar. 20, 2002. For Jarrah’s apparent visit with Senguen, see INS records, NIIS record for Jarrah, Feb. 25, 2001 (with departure date of Mar. 30, 2001); NIIS record for Jarrah, Apr. 13, 2001. For Atta and Shehhi returning to Virginia Beach, see FBI report, “Hijackers Timeline,” Dec. 5, 2003 (Apr. 3, 2001, entry citing FBI electronic communication, Sept. 17, 2001). For Atta closing the mailbox, see ibid. (Apr. 4, 2001, entry citing FBI electronic communication, Sept. 18, 2001).

73. For Atta and Shehhi arriving in Virginia, see FBI report, “Hijackers Timeline,” Dec. 5, 2003 (Apr. 3, 2001, entry citing 265A-NY-280350-302-615, 688, 896, 898).

http://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/US/9-11/911Report.htm#n1101r

"These guys had money flowing out their ass," Amanda Keller recalled in our interview. "They never seemed to run out of money. They had massive supplies of cocaine. Whenever they’d run out, they’d go over to the flight school. I followed them one day with Sabrina (another German friend of Atta's) to see where they were going, and saw them go into Florida Flight Training."

Referring to early 2000, since retracted

The Florida Flight Training Center is owned by Arne Kruithof, one of the two 'Magic Dutch Boys' who run flight schools at the Venice Airport. The other is Rudi Dekkers, who has not been charged with any 9/11-related crime as yet, at least that we're aware of.

Rudi currently makes frequent charter flights down and back to Columbia, we're told. Could those two facts be somehow related?

Of course they could.

http://www.madcowprod.com/02212006.html

Based on Hopsicker, since he has proven unable to accurately and honestly quote a newspaper article how can we trust claims based on unnamed sources? (No not all are unnamed)

He also cites Able Danger. There is a major hole in the theory they were Tracking the 9/11 Mohamed Atta, he wasn't using that name at the time. In Germany he was know as Mohamed el-Amir. Perhaps the person refered to was Palestinian terrorist Mahmoud Mahmoud Atta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mahmoud_Atta

Edited March 1, 2008 by Len Colby

[Guest David Guyatt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mahmoud_Atta[/url]

You're stretching way too far to fit fact to favoured fantasy:

The commander of ABLE DANGER remains in no doubt that he was tracking Atta, not an interloper (which reminds me very much of the two Oswald's bag of tricks).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165948,00.html

Agent Defends Military Unit's Data on 9/11 Hijackers

Wednesday, August 17, 2005

E-MAIL STORYRESPOND TO EDITORPRINTER FRIENDLY VERSION

WASHINGTON — Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer (search), a military intelligence specialist who worked on a secret pre-Sept. 11 investigative unit called Able Danger (search), has gone on the record, telling FOX News that he personally briefed staffers with the Sept. 11 commission in October 2003 about Mohamed Atta.

A statement from the commission — formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States — said that three staffers attended the meeting, but none, including Executive Director Phil Zelikow, remembers Shaffer mentioning Atta.

Still, the intelligence agent is standing by his claim that he told them that the lead hijacker in the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks had been identified in the summer of 2000 as an Al Qaeda operative living in the United States.

"What we talked about to the Sept. 11 commission was we found that these guys matched a pattern, a pattern, which in this case with Atta and the other four terrorists, matched the Brooklyn location," Shaffer said in his first television interview.

He said the intelligence unit used algorithms based on many items of information that popped out patterns that linked individuals to a group or location. The other three terrorists linked were Khalid al-Mihdhar (search), Nawaf al-Hazmi (search) and Marwan al-Shehhi (search).

Shaffer's briefing with the staffers took place in Bagram, Afghanistan. A Sept. 11 commission spokesman said the commission made two broad requests to the Pentagon for information relating to Able Danger, but received nothing to back up Shaffer's claim.

"None of the documents turned over to the commission mention Mohamed Atta or any of the other future hijackers," the spokesman said. Shaffer said the commission never received the whole story.

"I'm told confidently by the person who moved the material over, that the Sept. 11 commission received two briefcase-sized containers of documents. I can tell you for a fact that would not be one-twentieth of the information that Able Danger consisted of during the time we spent" investigating, Shaffer said.

Shaffer said in the late summer of 2000, he tried three times to set up meetings between the FBI's Washington field office and officials with Able Danger who believed the information about Atta should be shared with domestic law enforcement.

Michael Mason, head of the FBI field office, said it's possible the meetings were arranged, but that cannot be verified by any means.

It is "premature at best to suggest that the information gathered at such a meeting would have prevented the events of Sept. 11," Mason added.

Shaffer said each of the meetings was cancelled on short notice — by members of the special operations command.

"On these occasions when we had set up these meetings between the FBI and special operations command, special operations command pulled out of all three. They decided not to show up," he said.

Shaffer said the meetings were canceled for a variety of reasons, including concern about the military investigating individuals who were in this country legally. Some of the hijackers had valid visas. They also were concerned that if any fallout came from the FBI's activities, the special operations people feared they would take the hit.

According to two sources, Able Danger was set up in the late 1990s to track Usama bin Laden's terror network worldwide. Shaffer said its omission from the final Sept. 11 commission report makes it a "partial record."

"Leaving out a project targeting Al Qaeda as a global threat a year before we're attacked by Al Qaeda is equivalent to having an investigation into Pearl Harbor and leaving, somehow, out the Japanese," Shaffer said.

FOX News has learned that Shaffer's security clearance was suspended last year over a disputed phone bill and allegations that he had not gone through the proper chain of command to obtain an award for Able Danger. Shaffer's lawyer told FOX News that no formal action has ever been taken against Shaffer — and since then he was promoted by the Army to lieutenant colonel.

A military spokesman told FOX News that the Pentagon wants more clarity on the issue and continues to interview those involved. Shaffer said he has now spoken with senior defense officials.

FOX News' Catherine Herridge contributed to this report.

[Guest David Guyatt]

The fake quote was not the only made up fact in that issue of the newsletter. Hopsicker wrote:

“Even more incredibly, Tony Laconca's then-wife Vonnie told authorities that she had learned that her former cleaning company employee got a phone call from Atta during the week before the Sept.11 attack.”

He conflated and confused two unrelated parts of the story. From the cited article:

“In an effort to locate Keller, the [FDLE] agent accompanied Tony LaConca to the North Port Police Department to pick up a Feb. 25 police report in which Keller had called police about harassing cell phone calls.

According to the police report, after Keller called police about the calls, a computer check was conducted and showed an outstanding warrant from Marion County on a worthless check charge.

"Mohamed bailed her out of South County Jail," Vonnie LaConca said….”

[9 paragraphs later]

"The couple learned more about Mohamed from a then-employee of Vonnie's cleaning company. After meeting Mohamed and Keller on Feb. 21, the former employee joined the couple on an adventure to Key West the following day.”

- The calls were made before February 25, 6 ½ months before 9/11

- The is no indication who the calls were from, it would have been odd if he made the calls then bailed her out. The calls probably happened during the weekend when “Mohamed” was with her.

- Vonnie LaConca was still married to her husband Tony.

- She that Keller not her ex-employee got the calls

- She never said she learned about the calls from the ex-employee

It’s hard to fathom Hopsicker’s error on one hand it’s hard to believe he would intentionally altered so many facts which would suggest he had written that part from memory but on the other hand he directly quoted the article several times. In any case if he could so misconstrue a newspaper article how much faith can we put into his claims about what people told him especially his anonymous sources?

Would you care to clarify these points a little more by citing detailed but conflicting extracts from both sources, so that we all have the chance to compare what was actually said as opposed to what you say they are saying...

[Len Colby]

The fake quote was not the only made up fact in that issue of the newsletter. Hopsicker wrote:

“Even more incredibly, Tony Laconca's then-wife Vonnie told authorities that she had learned that her former cleaning company employee got a phone call from Atta during the week before the Sept.11 attack.”

He conflated and confused two unrelated parts of the story. From the cited article:

“In an effort to locate Keller, the [FDLE] agent accompanied Tony LaConca to the North Port Police Department to pick up a Feb. 25 police report in which Keller had called police about harassing cell phone calls.

According to the police report, after Keller called police about the calls, a computer check was conducted and showed an outstanding warrant from Marion County on a worthless check charge.

"Mohamed bailed her out of South County Jail," Vonnie LaConca said….”

[9 paragraphs later]

"The couple learned more about Mohamed from a then-employee of Vonnie's cleaning company. After meeting Mohamed and Keller on Feb. 21, the former employee joined the couple on an adventure to Key West the following day.”

- The calls were made before February 25, 6 ½ months before 9/11

- The is no indication who the calls were from, it would have been odd if he made the calls then bailed her out. The calls probably happened during the weekend when “Mohamed” was with her.

- Vonnie LaConca was still married to her husband Tony.

- She that Keller not her ex-employee got the calls

- She never said she learned about the calls from the ex-employee

It’s hard to fathom Hopsicker’s error on one hand it’s hard to believe he would intentionally altered so many facts which would suggest he had written that part from memory but on the other hand he directly quoted the article several times. In any case if he could so misconstrue a newspaper article how much faith can we put into his claims about what people told him especially his anonymous sources?

Would you care to clarify these points a little more by citing detailed but conflicting extracts from both sources, so that we all have the chance to compare what was actually said as opposed to what you say they are saying...

David I don't know how to make it any clearer than it already is. I quoted what Hopsicker said and I quoted the two unrealed passages from the article that he confused/conflated, below that I summarized his errors.

I bolded the Hopsicker quote, don't know if that will help. His 3 biggest errors were saying

Atta made the call when there is no indication who made them and they almost certainly weren't made by "Mohamed"

The call was made the week before 9/11 when they were made some time before April 25

The call was recieved by Ms. LaConca's former employee when they were made to Keller

[Len Colby]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mahmoud_Atta[/url]

You're stretching way too far to fit fact to favoured fantasy:

The commander of ABLE DANGER remains in no doubt that he was tracking Atta, not an interloper (which reminds me very much of the two Oswald's bag of tricks).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165948,00.html

Agent Defends Military Unit's Data on 9/11 Hijackers

Wednesday, August 17, 2005

To err is human.